History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedRomans vs Germans

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 2329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 05:45

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

  Rome succeeded for a variety of factors,

I find it surprising that no-one has so far pointed to the fact that Rome's political system (Republic in the beginning) helped legitimize its power and also the drafting of recruits. A government for the people (if not by the people) can exert power and inflate nationalistic tendencies much easier than an emperor can.

I doubt any empire/emperor could survive devastating defeats as the Romans did at the hands of Hannibal. Yet Rome could field one army after another, by exerting exactly its legitimacy in the eyes of the people.

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 10:16

Yeah, at leas, u got a little my point. At least u got that There was states stronger that Rome in its time, at least u got that each empire is strong when it is wealthy. And I am not talking about Sassanis, and also, durin Sassanid they had about 20-30 million population, becouse the most populated part of world was China and Mesopotamamia, And during Parthia too, But at least, thatnk u, u accepted that There was a time that Parthia was better that Rome, and Carthage too, and Huns tooo,

 

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 10:32

 Nobody has tried to make out that the Romans were superior right throughout their history, at one time it was defeated by the Gauls and Rome itself was captured, there was a time when Rome had no decent navy and Carthage ruled the seas, there were times when Greek armies could dominate the legion on the battlefield. Pyrrhus of Epirus for example.

 Rome over time adapted, overcame and conquered the Gauls, destroyed Carthages navy and eventually the Carthaginian empire, survived Pyrrhus captured the Greek territories in south Italy and eventually conquered Macedonia and ruled the Greeks overall. Then onto the Diodochi in the east Selceucia being the biggest.

 The relationship between Parthia and then the Sassinids and Rome was one of fluctuating fortunes, a civil war for example could give the Parthians a great oppounity to raid Imperial territory and loot a few cities before the imperial army could return. The same the way when a poor ruler or weakened Parthia was about Rome could avenge the earlier raids by weakening its ancient foe further perhaps sacking the Parthian capital again and setting up puppet kings as a buffer.

 The difference is between Rome and the Parthians it the Parthians never threatened the existance of the Roman empire, they could raid and at times conquer territory such as Armenia, parts of Syria, Mesopotamia the Holyland etc. But the imperial armies would then return and either drive the Parthians out or the Parthians would withdraw rather than give battle.

 Never did the Parthians have a chance of actually conquering the Roman empire, the Roman armies were to big and powerful, its population much much larger than the Parthians and then Sassinids controlled, Rome was also fantastically wealthy. It could afford to replace armies it had the population to do it and the funds to pay for it.

 The Huns were a flash in the pan when it comes to Rome, they looted alot of cities and territory defeated alot of Barbarians and had its confrontations with Rome. Rome had had this for centuries already anyway, during the crisis of the 3rd century things were much much worse, by the time the Huns arrived the western Roman empire was as good as doomed anyway. But the Hunnic empire collapsed and were actually then used by the same empire they had once fought against, as mercenaries, the Byzantine empire used Huns in its mercenary forces in the North African campaigns and in Italy.

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 11:23
It was never the intention of the Parthians or the Sassanids to conquer the whole Roman Empire. I am not sure about the Parthians' goals but the Sassanids wanted to restore the borders of the old Achaemenid Empire. The Sassanids were a serious contender for the rule of the eastern provinces.

Really, it is all about leadership. Both empires had their share of capable rulers, but it was the Sassanids that were unable to produce a continuous line of capable rulers. The Romans, with their much better resources, could stand to bear with a few incompetent emperors, but not the Sassanids.
"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 11:57

 The Parthians goals appear to have been little more than raiding Roman territory, obviously they knew their own limitations which is always a good thing. The Sassanids were a real menace in the east and definately a threat to likes of Asia Minor and Syria and more, the Sassinids took over at the perfect time, the Roman empire was on the verge of entering the most traumatic time in its history the crisis of the 3rd century, seeing the Roman empire almost collapse. The Roman empire then and after was almost constantly in civil war, economic crisis and suffering from massive barbarian invasions as the decline of the army increased more and more.

 Your right Belisarius about the Sassanids wish to restore the empire back to where it was under the Achaemenid empire.

 "Shapur King of Kings, brother of the sun and moon, sends salutation. Your own authors are witness that the entire territory within the river Strymon and the borders of Macedon was once held by my forefathers; were I require you to restore all this, it would not become ill of me... but because I take delight in moderation I shall be content to recieve Mesopotamia and Armenia"

 A letter from obviously King Shapur to the then Emperor Constantius in 360 I believe, suffice to say Constantius did not hand over any territory to Shapur. However it clearly shows the intentions of the Sassanids to reclaim territory they believed to be rightfully theirs. Undoubtedly Armenia and Mesopotamia would have been used to launch campaigns into Roman territory in the future making this *reconquest* a far more realistic goal.



Edited by Heraclius
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 22:16

And do not forget the 260 year battle, when Valerian laid under knees of Persian King and felt sorry for Atacking Sassanid empire

And remember Attila, crossing Po River, meeting Pop Leo and returning back without destroyong Rome in 452.

So, There was times that Sassanids made Empire bigger thatn Rome, or Arabians, maybe 1.5 times bigger, or Gokturks, may be 2 times bigger and Chinese TAN, may be 2 tuimes beggier and 2 times stronger than Rome

That is why I prefer Germans

But, Heraclius, I liked your 1 word-That Romans were not better in Courage than Garmans!!!

Good Spoken

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Lord of Hut River Province Principality

Joined: 01-May-2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5713
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 03:09
Originally posted by Janissary Janissary wrote:

And do not forget the 260 year battle, when Valerian laid under knees of Persian King and felt sorry for Atacking Sassanid empire

And remember Attila, crossing Po River, meeting Pop Leo and returning back without destroyong Rome in 452.

So, There was times that Sassanids made Empire bigger thatn Rome, or Arabians, maybe 1.5 times bigger, or Gokturks, may be 2 times bigger and Chinese TAN, may be 2 tuimes beggier and 2 times stronger than Rome

That is why I prefer Germans

But, Heraclius, I liked your 1 word-That Romans were not better in Courage than Garmans!!!

Good Spoken



To be honest I completely dismiss any theory that Attila could have taken Rome even if he did march on it in 452.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 13:37

 The size of an empire isnt always particularly relevant, the Roman empire was big enough, it had no need to extend its territory, it had everything what else was there to gain? it was incredibly rich, had a large population, it had many natural frontiers which could be easily defended if adequately guarded.

 All that would of happened is the Roman empire would have had to pay a fortune to conquer new territory, occupy it with legions, hold it and begin the process of romanization for little to no gain.

 Being a Roman obviously doesnt make you more courageous just because your a Roman. However the vastly superior training, discipline and equipment gave the legionary supreme confidence that he would prevail against any and all enemies.

 The Germans were incredibly brave, but often lacked organisation this largely negated the fact that the Germans were excellent individual fighters, because they were charging into a mass of legionaries who were trained to cut them to pieces and more often than not, did just that.

 The legions could defeat Germanic armies of 100,000 or more and only lose a couple of thousands themselves. That says something about how deadly a force the Roman legion could be.

 It took centuries for the Germans to get the upper hand on Rome, by then Rome was way WAY past its best.

 

 

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 21:32

Yeah, off cource, u will have no any information about it

Ok, Heraclius, Tell me The name of the battle That was More Than against 100 000 germans and Rome lost less than a thousand

Thell me The general that fought that battle, please

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:43
I have the perfect example of such an event. It is known as the Battle of Vercellae, fought in 101 BCE. This battle between the Roman Republic and the Germanic Cimbri was fought in Cisalpine, Gaul. The Cimbri numbered over 200,000 while the Romans had about 50,000 men under Gaius Marius. The Romans won a spectacular victory, killing 140,000 and taking the rest prisoner, all the while losing less than a thousand men.

There is another such event fought in Gaul in the previous year, 102 BCE, known as the Battle of Aquae Sextiae. In this battle, 110,000 Teutones faced about 40,000 Romans under Gaius Marius once more. This too was a spectacular victory with 90,000 Teutones killed, and the rest captured. The Romans lost less than a thousand men.
"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:56

Carrhae:

30000 romans killed including 10 000 preatorian

10000 were sent to captivity

Less than 500 Parthians died

But, i am ok/

Give me a link, I wanna learn about those battles

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:58
Sure! Always happy to direct a fellow history buff to the wonders of Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aquae_Sextiae

and...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vercellae

However, I see we are back to the Persians vs the Romans. Let me ask you this. How many times did the Romans and Byzantines capture Ctesiphon? From that I ask how many times did the Persians capture Rome? How many times did they capture Constantinople?

Ctesiphon was captured by Roman or Byzantine forces five times. Rome and Constantinople... zero.


Edited by Belisarius
"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 00:10

I am not Persian

Turkish Captured your Canstantionople and just ince, untill today

How many Byzans Armies was became martyrs Becouse of Arabs, Sassanids, Khazars, Avars, Bulgars, Slavians??????

How many times Did Rome took Ctesifon????

Trayan????

What about VAlerian that laid under the legs of Shapur and prayed him to let him freee????????

Thank u for links, lets do not talk about battles that were won, becouse, if it was an empire, then it needed to won a battles in order to be

Why u do not talk about weakness of that empire

That would be better discussion

I kniow why, becouse, u will answer:

-there was no weak parts of Roman empire-

That is why Italy was under the horses of Hannibal 14 years????

that is why, more than 250 000 roman Princeps and Hastatiis died there, becouse Roma was not wea?????

Come on, be truthfull, nobody will hurt u, Just think

think that Romas was good, But was not the bes, and think why I think so

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 00:17

http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Marius

30 000 ROMANS were killed in Sextiae

less than 1000

hmmmm

30 000 < 1000

What was grade from MAth???

Or u have problem with History???

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 10:42
You're awfully hostile you know that? Whether you are Persian or not has nothing to do with my argument. I am merely stating the superiority of the Romans over the Persians. Never once did I state that the Roman Empire was superior to all empires.

It seems you misunderstood what you read.
"The leading contingent of the Germans, the Ambrones, foolishly attacked the Roman position without waiting for re-enforcements and 30,000 were killed."

The Ambrones were the ones who foolishly attacked the Roman position without waiting for reinforcements. 30,000 Ambrones were killed.

My math grades are quite high, thank you, but not as high as my history marks.
"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 11:30

 Carrhae is a tired example by now Janissary, it wasnt even Romes heaviest defeat or one of the most important in the grand scale of the history of the empire. Infinitely outweighed by the fact the Persian capital was turned into little more than a source of loot for the Romans.

 Septimius Severus sacked Ctesiphon in 197AD, suffice to say Ctesiphon was sacked and captured many times by the Romans. Its also worth pointing out Heraclius won the last great war between these two ancient titans the Roman/Byzantine empire and the Sassanids in the 7th century, just prior to the arrival on the scene of the Arabs.

 Anyway that isnt particularly important, since we could go on all day about the Romans capturing a city the Parthians/Sassasnids taking another etc and it would become very tedious.

 Janissary "http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Marius

30 000 ROMANS were killed in Sextiae

less than 1000

hmmmm

30 000 < 1000

What was grade from MAth???Or u have problem with History???"

 I believe the problem is with your English Janissary, not Belisarius' math. Please show more respect.

 From that link you gave it says;

 "The leading contingent of the Germans, the Ambrones, foolishly attacked the Roman position without waiting for re-enforcements and 30,000 were killed."

 That says 30,000 Ambrones died not Romans like you said, so read it carefully next time before spouting off.

 Examples have been given of massive victories the Roman army gained over equally massive German armies, clearly showing the general superiority of the Roman armed forces to the Germanic armies of the time.

 The Germans scored victories against Rome, the Teutoburg forest and Adrianople are the most famous, but Romes defeats are always more famous than her victories. Try as Belisarius pointed out the battle of Aquae Sextiae, Vecallae, and then theres Naissus and lake Benacus.

 There are other German and Roman victories, to list them all would be pointless, my point is that everybody revels in the defeats Rome suffered, but conveniantly ignore Romes victories. Everybody has heard of Carrhae god knows we never hear the end of it from you Janissary, but how many people know much about Naissus? Lake Benacus? why arent these even greater battles as famous as Romes famous defeat at Carrhae? Seems there is more bias against Rome than there is for.

 Finally Janissary, I hope you realise I have no personal stake in this, by that I mean you can criticise the Roman empire/army all you wish, it doesnt bother me in the slightest aslong as your criticism is correct and justified. As impartial a view as possible is what I want, ive never tried to play down defeats like Adrianople, why would I? its well known fact it was a massive defeat and exposed Roman weakness, I could just as easily continue pointing out how weak Parthia once was against Rome in Trajans day, could easily point out that the Sassanids were defeated by Byzantium in the last great war between them. It goes both ways.

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 22:37
Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 23:09
It's alright, Janissary. Everyone makes mistakes.
"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 00:07

 When I make mistakes I just sneakily edit my post

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Janissary View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Azerbaijan
Status: Offline
Points: 446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 12:33

I am an exchange student in USA, so I am not as good as u

ok??

sorry

Turk elleri bir-birine yadlanir
Kazak, Qirqiz, Tuekmen, Ozbek adlanir
Azerbaycan yanar, Ichden odlanir,
Ana Yurdun ichden hali duman, heey
Qoca Turkum, dusduyun derd yaman, heeey
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.059 seconds.