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Forum LockedRespecting Stalin?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 16:00
I am not sure. Sure, Stalin was no idiot. He distrusted everyone, so he personally researched Nazi Germany's ambition. He trained and created more divisions, and he changed some of the trades between the Russia and Germany. He concentrated on more goods, and he sent many of the best Russian divisions to Far East where they could keep an eye on Japan and also hide the true size and potential of Soviet Union. If Soviet Union receive suprise attack, Russia would be ready for it... since while Germans crush the conscrpits in the Eastern front, the elites could mass up and make counterattacks. His decision was that when Britain was about to fall to the Nazi Germany, Soviet would make a sudden devastating all-out attack against Germany.
 
We know this did not happen. Hitler left Britain alone and made Stalin's plan backfire by commencing Operation Barbarossa.
 
His leadership saved Soviet Union, but at what cost? He was inefficient leader who refused to give up what he desired the most in return for millions of souls. Power. And besides, Stalin alone couldnot have beaten the Germans. Hitler's foolish decisions in Eastern front (Ex. Stalingrad) and aids from the Allies helped Soviet Union to survive the "Great Patriotic War".
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 10:18
I know you're all educated people and like good old discussion,i like it too,but to some questions the answer is simply obvious and desrves no attention - no,stalin dosen't deserve any respect at all!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 06:10
Jagiello wrote: "I know you're all educated people and like good old discussion,i like it too,but to some questions the answer is simply obvious and desrves no attention - no,stalin dosen't deserve any respect at all!"

Someone could tell that to the Russians too. Its pretty horrific to see people still crying over his death in Russia like it was the greatest disaster of the 20th century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 03:56
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg Kalevipoeg wrote:

Jagiello wrote: "I know you're all educated people and like good old discussion,i like it too,but to some questions the answer is simply obvious and desrves no attention - no,stalin dosen't deserve any respect at all!"

Someone could tell that to the Russians too. Its pretty horrific to see people still crying over his death in Russia like it was the greatest disaster of the 20th century.
 
There are ~ 200.000.000 Russians in the world. You think the greatest part of them respecting Stalin ? I think not. Because a lot of them/their families were hitted by him more then others ... let' remember that Stalin crimes were judget already in 196x ...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 12:13
"There are ~ 200.000.000 Russians in the world. You think the greatest part of them respecting Stalin ? I think not. Because a lot of them/their families were hitted by him more then others ... let' remember that Stalin crimes were judget already in 196x ..."

It might not be a greatest part of them, but an alarming number for most nations today. And i would be surprised if children in Russian schools get less knowledge on how uncle Stalin killed the invading Germans than he did his own people.
There is nothing wrong with feeling pride over Stalin today in Russia as it was with "Father Czar" before 1917. Is it healthy for a nation, no, but it can't be denied either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 08:37
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg Kalevipoeg wrote:

And i would be surprised if children in Russian schools get less knowledge on how uncle Stalin killed the invading Germans than he did his own people.
 
I 100% sure that Stalin crimes are shown in school-books in Russia.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg Kalevipoeg wrote:

There is nothing wrong with feeling pride over Stalin today in Russia as it was with "Father Czar" before 1917. Is it healthy for a nation, no, but it can't be denied either.
 
"Czars" are different Wink Ivan The Terible (i think the favorite of  Stalin) or Alexander II , etc.
 
I think for the most of russians Stalin is a part of their sometime bad sometime glorious history, but prouds/respects him only the smallest part of Russia&other ex-USSR population.
But the same situation is with other nations: for example Waffen SS soldiers from Estonia&Latvia. A lot of people in Estonia & Latvia RESPECT them , thinking that they was "freedom fighters". But for the whole other world they are NAZI collaborationists, who was killing not only soldiers , but a lot of innocent people too.


Edited by John Lenon - 22-Feb-2007 at 08:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 18:23
"I 100% sure that Stalin crimes are shown in school-books in Russia."

I've always wondered how much is the curriculum situated on studying 1939-1941 history compared to 1941-45 of the USSR. Are there any links that show this?

""Czars" are different Wink Ivan The Terible (i think the favorite of  Stalin) or Alexander II , etc."


No, i don't think so, only a technical difference of title to Russians mostly.

"I think for the most of russians Stalin is a part of their sometime bad sometime glorious history, but prouds/respects him only the smallest part of Russia&other ex-USSR population.
But the same situation is with other nations: for example Waffen SS soldiers from Estonia&Latvia. A lot of people in Estonia & Latvia RESPECT them , thinking that they was "freedom fighters". But for the whole other world they are NAZI collaborationists, who was killing not only soldiers , but a lot of innocent people too."

Well the men in the Waffen-SS regiments are an entirely other side of the coin compared to nazi collaborators in the entire Baltic who aided in guard duty and massacre of local Jews and of those brought here from rest of Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 06:08
You all say that Stalin was bloody tyrant and committed many crimes, but don`t forget that all WW2 winners were as bloody and as criminal as Stalin (may be except de Gaulle, but I think he`s not a winner, and French contribution to the victory is very small). Bombing of Italian antiquities, destruction of German cities, nuclear bombs... British government betrayed Yugoslav monarchists and they all were brutally murdered... the fate of Russian White Guardist emigrants... They all were betrayed and killed... Please, don`t forget that American and British governments are as bloody as Soviet communist one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 22:04
Originally posted by Philhellene Philhellene wrote:

You all say that Stalin was bloody tyrant and committed many crimes, but don`t forget that all WW2 winners were as bloody and as criminal as Stalin (may be except de Gaulle, but I think he`s not a winner, and French contribution to the victory is very small). Bombing of Italian antiquities, destruction of German cities, nuclear bombs... British government betrayed Yugoslav monarchists and they all were brutally murdered... the fate of Russian White Guardist emigrants... They all were betrayed and killed... Please, don`t forget that American and British governments are as bloody as Soviet communist one.
 
Hear hear.
 
By the way, some of my Russian friends tell me that Lenin and Stalin are still seen as heroes. Despite democratic influence over Russia and the end of Soviet regime, many Russians still long for the days of Communism.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 05:21
I agree that the Western nations have times bloodyer histories than todays people have been made to believe. But i don't think Englands prime minister intentionally starved 6 million Irish to death for example as did Stalin to the Ukrainians, Russians and people of Northern Caucasus.

The Allies destroyed much antiquities in the war, but then again, Soviets raped all the German females they could find in Berlin, and even Russian women before that. Destroying a city is an equal example to raping an entire city on top of destroying it, choosing from girls even aged 12 to rape at that. Theres a vast difference what Stalin did without a flinch and that the Allies did.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 06:50
Despite democratic influence over Russia and the end of Soviet regime, many Russians still long for the days of Communism.
 
That`s all because democracy is discredited in the eyes of Russian people. The priciples of "perestroika" and Eltsin' Russia were as follows: everyone steals from everyone and noone is responsible. But Soviet Union is associated with order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 06:57
The Allies destroyed much antiquities in the war, but then again, Soviets raped all the German females they could find in Berlin, and even Russian women before that.
 
You just hate Russians. Little country, small people, pride and naivety... Yeah, I know that...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 10:39
"You just hate Russians. Little country, small people, pride and naivety... Yeah, I know that..."

Rubbish. Say something that relates to my post, but keep your wild imagination out of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:16

Your post is absolutely.... full of lies and hate... Please, don't expect me to talk with you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:21
That`s all because democracy is discredited in the eyes of Russian people. The priciples of "perestroika" and Eltsin' Russia were as follows: everyone steals from everyone and noone is responsible. But Soviet Union is associated with order.
 
I totally agree.That's why Russians do not like democracy that much,because the word is  associated with the greatest robbery over State property ,like that of Russia's in the early years following the breakup of the Soviet Union.


Edited by Spartakus - 26-Feb-2007 at 14:21
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:54

Interesting fact, Russian democratic republic, created after the fall of Russian Empire and abdication of Nicholas II, was also very week country. Russian governement wasn`t able to control the situation, but Bolsheviks introduced the order and maybe even saved Russia. But at the same time they couldn`t achieve real economic power and finally their state came to crisis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 22:29
Well, Lenin tried to enforce War Communism, but it made economical situations even worse. As such, Lenin proposed something that went against the idea of communism: he proposed NEP. This policy allowed the mix of capitalism and socialism together. This was the first middle economy in Russia. It was meant to be temperory, and the policy would end when the economy is stabilized for the Communism to work. Sadly, Lenin died soon afterwards.. and up comes with Stalin. As every Russian souls know, he began Five Year Plan without waiting for Russian economy to recover fully. As such, the history repeats again...
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 00:00
I believe it would have been better if Russians had fought on under the Provisional government of Kerensky. The Germans had already started to lose. Russians lost such a greater number of people during Revolution and its subsequent aftermath than it would have lost in 1917-1918.

Communism did not fit Russia, and Lenin knew this. He stole whatever specks of land people had. I ask, was communism really necessary? There was almost no bourgeoisie to be replaced and almost no working class to replace it. THe Bolsheviks turned the country upside down for nothing...also, its kind of ironic that no none of the USSR General Secretaries were even Russian...only people from Ukraine, Georgia etc...lands conquered by Russian kings and queens was just "given" to other republics such as Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

Just compare Russian influence in the beginning of 20th century, and its influence in 21th (and I mean influence in aspects such as culture, literature, music...not just military)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 13:03
As such, the history repeats again...
 
You think it`s happening once again and right now? under Putin? So... Smile Who is modern Lenin? or Stalin?  When was modern War Communism?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 14:17
I believe it would have been better if Russians had fought on under the Provisional government of Kerensky. The Germans had already started to lose.
 
No, that's not true. Germans captured Riga, conquered Baltic region and threatened Russian capital Petrograd (modern Saint-Petersburg). The situation in Ukranian-Romanian front line was also absolutely terrible.


Edited by Philhellene - 27-Feb-2007 at 14:23
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