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Forum LockedReplica of Ming boat reached America, then sunk

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Replica of Ming boat reached America, then sunk
    Posted: 19-May-2009 at 12:26
 
Princess Taiping, a replica of a smaller ship from the Ming dynasty managed to reach America and almost managed to return when it was hit by a large ship and sunk just 40 km from home.
 
"The ship was commissioned by 61-year-old Liu Ningsheng ("Nelson Liu"), the first person to ever circle the earth in a yacht, to demonstrate the plausibility of the theory that the Chinese explored the American West Coast decades before the voyages of Christopher Columbus. The ship was a replica of a war ships in the navies of Zheng He and Koxinga. It was 54 feet long and 45 feet wide. Thirty craftsmen from Fuzhou, Quanzhou and Zhangzhou spent six years building the ship, without nuts and bolts, using traditional Chinese shipbuilding techniques.It was entirely wind-powered, with three cotton sails."
(From Wikipedia)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 08:49

The historical value of such modern achievements may sometimes be exaggerated. Without other evidence it hardly indicate anything, but of course Liu may be as right ( - perhaps rather - wrong) as the famous Heyerdahl. Perhaps in some cases and combined with caution such "re-acting" or "experimenting" with the past may contribute to our understanding. If it is about making wild claims why then not ancient roman computers, egyptian airtravel or crusaders on the moon?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 08:52
A Chinese Heyerdahl was my thought as well. And as in his case, a remarkable feat which has little historical value. Cool nonetheless.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 10:49
Originally posted by fantasus

  If it is about making wild claims why then not ancient roman computers, egyptian airtravel or crusaders on the moon?
 
The difference is that this was a replica of excisting Ming technology (a ship) while the romans had no computers, the ancient egyptians no aeroplanes or the crusaders no space vessels. The voyage of Princess Taiping showed that the chinese during the time of the Ming dynasty could have reached America. But of course it doesn´t show that they really did so.
 
But it seems to have been a cool voyage, just a pity that they got run over by a huge modern ship.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 11:55
I think that no matter how many people claim it was possible for their ancestors to have reached the Americas, at the end of the day all that matters is the technological ingenuity combined with the military and political purpose that ensured the colonisation of these two continents by a handful (4) small European countries.

Questions of individually possible encounters with the Western Hemisphere by other powers are academic and ultimately inconsequential to the development of world history.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 13:42
"Could" doesn't make a truth.
 
There is no evidence of Chinese in the pre-Colombian Americas at all. Not of Chinese, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Arabs, Jews, East Indians, Hungarians, Birmanians, (you name it). All of that is childish stuff to sale books.
 
With respect to Heyerdahl, and his obsesion with the "white gods", most what he said was wrong.


Edited by pinguin - 20-May-2009 at 13:43
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 15:26

Some ancestors of the pre-colombian likely came by water, the northern end of Pacific (The shortest way or over the Aleutians - a way over open sea). The first humans there perhaps by rivers or following the coastline?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 15:27
"Likely" is the same that "could". It never happened. Natives of the Americas crossed the Bering strait. Period.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:47
Originally posted by pinguin

"Likely" is the same that "could". It never happened. Natives of the Americas crossed the Bering strait. Period.
 
Because you where there and whitnessed it? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:54

Well, if you want to believe Jesus was reborn in the Americas... Wink

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:55
In historic times (but before they had motors or propellers) Japanese fishermen have sometimes drifted to the north western coasts of North America.
 
Persson, Lars, Motilonernas berg (the Mountains of the Motilones).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:56
Originally posted by Constantine XI

I think that no matter how many people claim it was possible for their ancestors to have reached the Americas, at the end of the day all that matters is the technological ingenuity combined with the military and political purpose that ensured the colonisation of these two continents by a handful (4) small European countries.Questions of individually possible encounters with the Western Hemisphere by other powers are academic and ultimately inconsequential to the development of world history.



I think you hit the nail on the head and I could not put it better.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:58
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, if you want to believe Jesus was reborn in the Americas... Wink
 
Hmmm, the ancestors of Native America came to America (with or without floating vessels) a lot earlier than the time of Jesus.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:02
A nice picture of the Ming replica boat Princess Taiping when she still was afloat:
 
         
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:06
Another nice picture, here she is with all her sails up:
 
 
  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:36
Originally posted by eaglecap

Originally posted by Constantine XI

I think that no matter how many people claim it was possible for their ancestors to have reached the Americas, at the end of the day all that matters is the technological ingenuity combined with the military and political purpose that ensured the colonisation of these two continents by a handful (4) small European countries.Questions of individually possible encounters with the Western Hemisphere by other powers are academic and ultimately inconsequential to the development of world history.



I think you hit the nail on the head and I could not put it better.


Thanks for your support Smile

At the end of the day, this is all counterfactual history. I am sure Phoenician vessels could probably have drifted far west enough to reach the Americas also.

So what? It proves nothing of significance, and has no bearing on the fundamental development of globalisation or world history.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 23:02
Originally posted by Constantine XI


So what? It proves nothing of significance, and has no bearing on the fundamental development of globalisation or world history.
 
You probably right, but still it´s a nice looking boat. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 23:16
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by Constantine XI


So what? It proves nothing of significance, and has no bearing on the fundamental development of globalisation or world history.
 
You probably right, but still it´s a nice looking boat. Wink


I agree. Behind the cannons of a 19th century British warship, it would be a rather pretty boat and only with reservations would I light the fuse.

In all seriousness, I am not in no doubt of the technological ability of the Chinese. They have almost always been at the forefront of technology.  But such technology does not change history, unless backed up by the power exhibited by Spain, Portugal, England and France in this period.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 23:50
Originally posted by Constantine XI

In all seriousness, I am not in no doubt of the technological ability of the Chinese. They have almost always been at the forefront of technology.  But such technology does not change history, unless backed up by the power exhibited by Spain, Portugal, England and France in this period.
 
Seen from an East Asian point of view chinese technology, mongolian war ability and similar profoundly changed world history. Without Chinese inventions like gunpowder the west wouldn´t been able to raise to it´s later might. Without the mongols weakening the muslim world Europe might not been able to ascend to world power. One can find many such connections that were also important factors in shaping the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2009 at 00:29
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by Constantine XI

In all seriousness, I am not in no doubt of the technological ability of the Chinese. They have almost always been at the forefront of technology.  But such technology does not change history, unless backed up by the power exhibited by Spain, Portugal, England and France in this period.
 
Seen from an East Asian point of view chinese technology, mongolian war ability and similar profoundly changed world history. Without Chinese inventions like gunpowder the west wouldn´t been able to raise to it´s later might. Without the mongols weakening the muslim world Europe might not been able to ascend to world power. One can find many such connections that were also important factors in shaping the world.


I thought we were discussing the Americas.

As I said, I am in no doubt of the awesome impact of East Asian civilisations. And indeed, their continued vitality and strength in this day.

I think when we discuss the history of the Americas and the influence of outside nations, we need to keep in mind one thing - reach means little, grasp means a lot.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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