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Forum LockedReality Asylum

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    Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 22:34
Way back the band Crass wrote the song Reality Asylum. Recently Richard Dawkins wrote the book, the God Delusion.
 
Beneath the deliberate attempt to be contrversial, I think Crass make more good points in a few lines than Dwkins does in hundreds of pages.
 
Listen
 
Read
 
What do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2008 at 23:34
Boring. They (or should I say she?) make a single point (and alas no music): they hate Jesus. 
If one wants to get controversial on such themes he should try videos like NIN's Closer.


Edited by Chilbudios - 13-Feb-2008 at 23:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 09:34
Actually they make numerous points, but one would have to be familiar with Gramsci's Hegemony or Debord's Society of the Spectacle.
 
The point is. Dawkin's hijack of the athiest cause is based along the lines of disputing the existence of god on logical/spiritual level. Not the philosophy. He has a chapter in his book about Athiest morality to combat the notion Athiests can be moral too and even stumbles a bit when people mention Hitler and Stalin to him. He argues athiests can be just as moral as Christians.
 
These are huge quantal leaps from the athiest movement of old. Atheism isn't about disputing the existence of god, it's about dsiputing the christian philosophy. Genocide, nationalism, hatred, prejudice, fear, delusion, holy war and immorality. The Nazi's are not an argument against atheist morality, they are the epitomy christian value system in its purest form.
 


Edited by Paul - 14-Feb-2008 at 10:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 10:32
And as I've said the mixture between blasphemy and pornography is a known receipt, only that others did it in a better way. Crass made several points in their music, but not in this "song". This "song" is just about hate against Jesus justified by a bunch of accusations, more or less funny, and generally inaccurate.
While some of those assignments you make are debateable, some are clearly absurd. Christianity was born in an era where nationalism and much of the "Christian times" happen before nationalism (actually one could say that nationalism mainly developed recently, in a roughly secular world). Also to call a philosophy coming with a moral system of its own immoral, is being more "Christian" than the Christians themselves, i.e. invoking a transcendental self-righteous moral code to judge the morality of the others. And the connection between Christianity and Hiroshima (to single out one of the many stutterings from that "song") is similar with the connection between shoes and amoebas.
 
Your also seem to suggest atheism today is only atheism in some Marxistoid flavour, and I'm sure many enough atheists would disagree with that.
 
Quote The Nazi's are not an argument against atheist morality, they are the epitomy christian value system in its purest form.
 
Be it like you. Please take Augustine, D'Aquino, the new Testament and a bunch of "classical" Christian works and infer the necessity of the Third Reich and of the Holocaust. Dawkins couldn't do that, Crass couldn't do that, maybe you'll succeed where they failed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 12:30
Crass's style can be a litttle shocking for the more timid and there is a tendency to base your arguments on what you see as the sentiment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 12:39
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Atheism isn't about disputing the existence of god, it's about dsiputing the christian philosophy. Genocide, nationalism, hatred, prejudice, fear, delusion, holy war and immorality. The Nazi's are not an argument against atheist morality, they are the epitomy christian value system in its purest form.


Reductio ad Hitlerum. Equating a group/idea/philosophy to the beliefs of Hitler is an unfortunate trend in modern society, especially on the internet. I guess I have a few points to make.

Firstly - Atheism is the belief that a God does not exist. It is as simple as that. It does not reference to any particular religion or philosophical system.

Secondly - All the things, fear excepted, you listed are specifically prohibited by the bible. Some would argue that the old testament encourages nationalism, but this would be incorrect. Nationalism is a form of pride, which is a sin in Christianity. Fear is an emotion. It really isn't part of the Christian philosphy either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 12:45
Quote Crass's style can be a litttle shocking for the more timid and there is a tendency to base your arguments on what you see as the sentiment.
What can be shocking in a boring "song"? What are my sentiments?
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 14-Feb-2008 at 12:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 13:15
Originally posted by Zaitsev Zaitsev wrote:

Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Atheism isn't about disputing the existence of god, it's about dsiputing the christian philosophy. Genocide, nationalism, hatred, prejudice, fear, delusion, holy war and immorality. The Nazi's are not an argument against atheist morality, they are the epitomy christian value system in its purest form.


Reductio ad Hitlerum. Equating a group/idea/philosophy to the beliefs of Hitler is an unfortunate trend in modern society, especially on the internet. I guess I have a few points to make.

Firstly - Atheism is the belief that a God does not exist. It is as simple as that. It does not reference to any particular religion or philosophical system.

Secondly - All the things, fear excepted, you listed are specifically prohibited by the bible. Some would argue that the old testament encourages nationalism, but this would be incorrect. Nationalism is a form of pride, which is a sin in Christianity. Fear is an emotion. It really isn't part of the Christian philosphy either.
 
Atheism isn't the belief in that god doesn't exist. This is actually what I was objecting to. The rebranding of atheism as this in recent years, and people like Dawkins playing along. It's a shot in the foot and means TV debates on atheism, which 20 years ago would have talked about imperialism, oppression, freedom of speech, now talk about intelligent design and supernatural nonsense. Atheism has become victim of the anti-politisication and dumbing down of society.
 
What's the bible got to do with christian philosophy? Christians philosophy is the actions of christians today and throughout history. Were the Inquisition not Christians? Christian Philosophy is to justify imperialism, genocide, colonialism and oppression. That's what they do regardless of what their book says.


Edited by Paul - 14-Feb-2008 at 13:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 13:30

Quote

Atheism isn't the belief in that god doesn't exist.
 
Christians philosophy is the actions
 
 
If this is supposed to be a thread where reason is suspended, why didn't you say so in the first place? Tongue
 
 
Quote Were the Inquisition not Christians?
Weren't many enough Communist torturers atheists?


Edited by Chilbudios - 14-Feb-2008 at 13:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Atheism isn't the belief in that god doesn't exist. This is actually what I was objecting to. The rebranding of atheism as this in recent years, and people like Dawkins playing along. It's a shot in the foot and means TV debates on atheism, which 20 years ago would have talked about imperialism, oppression, freedom of speech, now talk about intelligent design and supernatural nonsense. Atheism has become victim of the anti-politisication and dumbing down of society.


Schools which 100 years ago taught science, now teach evolution. Society changes. Belief that God does not exist is exactly what Atheism is by definition. Theism being the belief in a deity. A-Theism being the opposite. It's simple.
 
Quote What's the bible got to do with christian philosophy? Christians philosophy is the actions of christians today and throughout history. Were the Inquisition not Christians? Christian Philosophy is to justify imperialism, genocide, colonialism and oppression. That's what they do regardless of what their book says.


The Bible defines Christian philosphy. The Inquisition was not made up of Christians, as they did not follow the teachings of Christ. As such, it is impossible to class them as Christians. Christian philosophy has never been around for the purposes you claim. People do that regardless of what religion they claim to belong to. Atheism is one of the few religious beliefs that can legitimately be used as justification for such actions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 14:09
Originally posted by Zaitsev Zaitsev wrote:


The Bible defines Christian philosphy. The Inquisition was not made up of Christians, as they did not follow the teachings of Christ. As such, it is impossible to class them as Christians.
 
So there was only one christian and he died on the cross.
 
Originally posted by Zaitsev Zaitsev wrote:

Christian philosophy has never been around for the purposes you claim. People do that regardless of what religion they claim to belong to.
 
Christian philosophy is around for the purposes of what christians claim.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 14:22
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

So there was only one christian and he died on the cross.


I apologise, you are right in this case. Christians are those who try their best to follow the teachings of Christ.
 
Quote Christian philosophy is around for the purposes of what christians claim.


If they're true Christians, then indeed they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 14:28
Originally posted by Zaitsev Zaitsev wrote:

Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

So there was only one christian and he died on the cross.


I apologise, you are right in this case. Christians are those who try their best to follow the teachings of Christ.
 
Quote Christian philosophy is around for the purposes of what christians claim.


If they're true Christians, then indeed they are.
 
 
That's my earlier point. Christian philosophy isn't what it says in the book. Its what Christians do in its name, whether correctly interpreting it or not.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 15:01
I disagree. Christian philosophy is what is in the book. Not everyone can follow it perfectly, but as long as that's what they value then they hold the Christian philosophy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 17:19
The bible's not a philosophy book, it's a religious text. Philosophy is human action.

Edited by Paul - 14-Feb-2008 at 17:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 03:08
No, philosophy is human belief.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 18:52
 
Originally posted by Zaitsev Zaitsev wrote:

  Belief that God does not exist is exactly what Atheism is by definition. Theism being the belief in a deity. A-Theism being the opposite. It's simple.
Unusually, I agree with Zaitsev on that one. I don't know why people confuse atheism (belief there is no God) with agnosticism (lack of belief in a God), and it irritates me when they do.
 
However, a small point: theism is the belief in one or more deities. Belief in one deity is monotheism. Belief in many is polytheism. Theism covers both. There's probably a word for belief in two deities, but I can't think of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 17:38
I know gcle. The point I was trying to make was that you believed that there was at least one deity. I should have been more clear.

P.S. According to the all-important wiki, 'dualism' is the belief in two deities.
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