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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2007 at 03:55
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote I know the Orthodox do not like Protestant missionaries coming into
Russia but I have never read about any persecution of Protestants there.
Protestant Missionaries are not allowed in Russia. IIRC Except for 5(?) religions (Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, and maybe one or two others including traditional steppe beliefs) religion is banned or at least highly discouraged.


They go anyway because I know of Protestant born again churches who send short term and long term missionaries there and Calvary chapel has a Bible school in Moscow.
It is called the great commision to preach and spread the Gospel around the world.

Youth with a mission has a Bible school in Russia as well.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2007 at 15:27
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote I know the Orthodox do not like Protestant missionaries coming into
Russia but I have never read about any persecution of Protestants there.
Protestant Missionaries are not allowed in Russia. IIRC Except for 5(?) religions (Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, and maybe one or two others including traditional steppe beliefs) religion is banned or at least highly discouraged.


They go anyway because I know of Protestant born again churches who send short term and long term missionaries there and Calvary chapel has a Bible school in Moscow.
It is called the great commision to preach and spread the Gospel around the world.

Youth with a mission has a Bible school in Russia as well.
 
Aye, they do go to Russia, Greece, and other Orthodox countries, and they have played a terrible role in decieving people about the essential nature of Holy Tradition and leading them away from the Church.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 01-Dec-2007 at 15:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 19:39
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote I know the Orthodox do not like Protestant missionaries coming into Russia but I have never read about any persecution of Protestants there.
Protestant Missionaries are not allowed in Russia. IIRC Except for 5(?) religions (Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, and maybe one or two others including traditional steppe beliefs) religion is banned or at least highly discouraged.
They go anyway because I know of Protestant born again churches who send short term and long term missionaries there and Calvary chapel has a Bible school in Moscow. It is called the great commision to preach and spread the Gospel around the world. Youth with a mission has a Bible school in Russia as well.


Aye, they do go to Russia, Greece, and other Orthodox countries, and they have played a terrible role in decieving people about the essential nature of Holy Traditionand leading them away from the Church.


-Akolouthos


I wonder if it really matters-Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic- as long as they lead people to salvation and God. I still wonder - "What is truth?"

I do enjoy the service at the Greek Orthodox service although I do not understand it.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 22:45
Figuring out your chosen religion is most likely a personal thing. Now about enjoying services with fellow compatriots, that is where it's at. Religion is a gathering. Helping eachother out and those in need. Whether one speaks the same language or not the important thing is your helping spirit.
Copyright 2004 Seko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 23:03
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I wonder if it really matters-Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic- as long as they lead people to salvation and God. I still wonder - "What is truth?"

I do enjoy the service at the Greek Orthodox service although I do not understand it.
 
Indeed and it does, eaglecap. Christian doctrine may only be properly understood within the context in which it was delivered to us. If we remove it from this context it falls apart, not because it is in any way deficient in and of itself, but because in removing it from the proper context, we have usurped to role of the Holy Spirit. In essence, it is the false context which is deficient. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and, through them, to the Church. Paul, and the other authors of the Epistles, constantly chastise, plead, and implore the many local Christian churches to stay united to the one Body of Christ, that is His holy Church. It is to the Church that the fullness of grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit is promised, and separation from the Church is tantamount to saying that this promise does not matter at all. In doing so, individuals discard the Holy Spirit -- which has guided the Church through the trials and tribulations of the ages -- and decide to judge for themselves between the many fallible man-made doctrines, refusing to "endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts," heaping "to themselves teachers, having itching ears."
 
On a practical level, I should think it would be obvious that the very fact that the many different "Christian" denominations disagree on a plethora of substantial doctrinal points demonstrates the absolute lunacy of any form of what we have come to term "Branch Theory". After all, there is one Truth, that is Christ; one Church that is truly Christian; and "one body, and one Spirit, even as," we "are called in one hope of," our "calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all," and in us all.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 06-Dec-2007 at 23:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 07:06
I agree Akalouthos. And that is why I think most protestant churches will preach one holy church in Christ. There is nothing wrong in having different interpretations in biblical matters, in fact I see this as a positive thing. However all of the branches still preach the same, fundamental message of salvation and how a person achieves salvation is the same in any of the branches in the church. That is the core message which binds us all as Christians.
 
All the other little arguments about sitting, standing, pictures or no pictures, saints or no saints are in essense petty and has nothing to do with salvation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 07:43
Originally posted by Eondt Eondt wrote:

I agree Akalouthos. And that is why I think most protestant churches will preach one holy church in Christ. There is nothing wrong in having different interpretations in biblical matters, in fact I see this as a positive thing. However all of the branches still preach the same, fundamental message of salvation and how a person achieves salvation is the same in any of the branches in the church. That is the core message which binds us all as Christians.
 
All the other little arguments about sitting, standing, pictures or no pictures, saints or no saints are in essense petty and has nothing to do with salvation.
 
Your introductions says "agree" but the body of your post says otherwise. LOL
 
Well, surely you can agree that the issues you have mentioned contribute to the whole body of doctrine, can you not? And if this is so, and the doctrinal path of the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit in accordance with the promise of Christ, then we must say that these "little arguments" have much to do with salvation. If you wish to research a practical example, you may examine the doctrinal debates that surrounded the "little arguments" during the iconoclastic controversy. Wink
 
As for different interpretations in biblical matters, they certainly do exist. Any valid interpretation, however, will inevitably square with the Tradition of the Church. God may certainly save anyone, anywhere, at anytime. But if we take seriously the free gift of grace that He gave us when he became flesh and delivered the Truth, then we must accept the context in which He defined thisTruth. To do otherwise would be, quite literally, to spit in His face, and I certainly wouldn't want to face that one at the Final Judgment. If we accept -- as I assume we both do -- that faith in Christ is important, then why can we not accept that the context in which He established this faith is important?
 
To summarize: The fact that God can save us anywhere, at any time, in any denomination or religion, and for any reason, does not absolve us of our responsibility to bring ourselves in accordance to His will -- and He willed that we should all remain united in the divinized institution that is His Church.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 07-Dec-2007 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 09:32

My agreement was in the fact that there is only one church. It's just that I think our respective definitions of the "one" church differs. Divisions within the Christian church only exist in the minds of men I think.

For example in South Africa we have the South African Council of Churches (www.sacc.org.za) which is used by member churches as a vehicle to voice a unified Christian voice within South Africa and the region. Membership in this organisation includes most of the Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Greek Orthodox church (at closer inspection we see however that 7th day adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are excluded). They also take their role as the voice of the church serious in that they expelled some of the member churches during the apartheid era for attempting to justify apartheid in theology. These churches were allowed back in once they confessed their wrong doing.
 
-Eon 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 15:22
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

 
 
To summarize: The fact that God can save us anywhere, at any time, in any denomination or religion, and for any reason, does not absolve us of our responsibility to bring ourselves in accordance to His will -- and He willed that we should all remain united in the divinized institution that is His Church.
 
-Akolouthos
 
One of the best summaries Ive read in a long time! Clap
We must not limit God in His endless saving power, but yet we must try our hardest not to test it
Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 15:33
Originally posted by Eondt Eondt wrote:

My agreement was in the fact that there is only one church. It's just that I think our respective definitions of the "one" church differs. Divisions within the Christian church only exist in the minds of men I think.

For example in South Africa we have the South African Council of Churches (www.sacc.org.za) which is used by member churches as a vehicle to voice a unified Christian voice within South Africa and the region. Membership in this organisation includes most of the Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Greek Orthodox church (at closer inspection we see however that 7th day adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are excluded). They also take their role as the voice of the church serious in that they expelled some of the member churches during the apartheid era for attempting to justify apartheid in theology. These churches were allowed back in once they confessed their wrong doing.
 
-Eon 
 
You must forgive me Eondt. I havent the time, at the moment, to read thru the site entirely. Certainly the Churches that you have listed above arent in communion with one another?? So, if my assumption is correct,  they are not really united as a "Church". The Protestant churches dont hold any authority as they lack apostolic succesion, just a Catholic view on the matter.
From my brief viewing of the site it seems they are just all working together for the better good of the community(ie.poverty), which is a very good thing
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 01:09
Quote
I wonder if it really matters-Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic- as long as they lead people to salvation and God. I still wonder - "What is truth?"


The truth of the matter though is you shouldn't preach the Gospel to those that have an in depth knowledge of Christianity.  Preaching to the Choir seems to be a literal metaphor there.

Quote
However all of the branches still preach the same, fundamental message of salvation and how a person achieves salvation is the same in any of the branches in the church.


That is not entirely true.

The methods of achieving salvation are different but the message is still the same I'd agree.

Quote
Christ promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and, through them, to the Church. Paul, and the other authors of the Epistles, constantly chastise, plead, and implore the many local Christian churches to stay united to the one Body of Christ, that is His holy Church. It is to the Church that the fullness of grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit is promised, and separation from the Church is tantamount to saying that this promise does not matter at all. In doing so, individuals discard the Holy Spirit -- which has guided the Church through the trials and tribulations of the ages -- and decide to judge for themselves between the many fallible man-made doctrines, refusing to "endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts," heaping "to themselves teachers, having itching ears."


Wow, Akolouthos are you sure your not the Catholic and I the Orthodox. I thought that the Orthodox church teaches that the Church consists of the body of believers and that the Holy Spirit guides these believers into accordance with God's Will, rather than God's Will being interpreted by the Church proper. Whose to say God lists his "Church" as one denomination over "all Christians". Or am I a bit confused over your explanation you gave over our discussion of Papal Infallibility?

Quote
The fact that God can save us anywhere, at any time, in any denomination or religion, and for any reason, does not absolve us of our responsibility to bring ourselves in accordance to His will -- and He willed that we should all remain united in the divinized institution that is His Church.


Clap

Quote
Divisions within the Christian church only exist in the minds of men I think.


Agreed for the most part, but claiming to follow the teachings of a man named Jesus and a deity known as God do not necessarily mean that they are following the True Christ and the True God.

Quote (at closer inspection we see however that 7th day adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are excluded).


I can understand how witnesses are excluded but why are adventists excluded? Or have they just chosen not to include themselves?

Quote
Certainly the Churches that you have listed above arent in communion with one another??


No it isn't like the Porvoo Communion it is more like the World Council of Churches.

Quote
The Protestant churches dont hold any authority as they lack apostolic succesion, just a Catholic view on the matter.


I believe the Church of England and some Lutheran churches may maintain Apostolic Succession. At the very least the Catholic church recognizes the fact they may have claims on the succession even if it believes those claims are illegitimate.

Quote
From my brief viewing of the site it seems they are just all working together for the better good of the community(ie.poverty), which is a very good thing


Exactly, also while trying to bring each other to a more united community.

Of course I'm a unionist who believes that we will only know God when all peoples are united in Spirit in accordance with God's will.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 05:46
Originally posted by Janus Rook Janus Rook wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Christ promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and, through them, to the Church. Paul, and the other authors of the Epistles, constantly chastise, plead, and implore the many local Christian churches to stay united to the one Body of Christ, that is His holy Church. It is to the Church that the fullness of grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit is promised, and separation from the Church is tantamount to saying that this promise does not matter at all. In doing so, individuals discard the Holy Spirit -- which has guided the Church through the trials and tribulations of the ages -- and decide to judge for themselves between the many fallible man-made doctrines, refusing to "endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts," heaping "to themselves teachers, having itching ears."
Wow, Akolouthos are you sure your not the Catholic and I the Orthodox. I thought that the Orthodox church teaches that the Church consists of the body of believers and that the Holy Spirit guides these believers into accordance with God's Will, rather than God's Will being interpreted by the Church proper. Whose to say God lists his "Church" as one denomination over "all Christians". Or am I a bit confused over your explanation you gave over our discussion of Papal Infallibility?
 
I think you may be a bit confused over an earlier explanation that I gave. Perhaps I phrased it imprecisely; I have been known to do that from time to time. Wink
 
The Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church is certainly not confined to what, in the West, has been called the "magisterium". Individual Christians are guided as well. Still, this guidance always takes place within the collective context of the Church; in other words, while individual Christians may be guided, they are never guided on a purely individualistic level. This follows upon our understanding of the Eucharistic union of all believers in the Body of Christ.
 
The concept of "Apostolic Succession" in the Orthodox Church is a bit different from the Roman perception as well. We believe that we possess, in living continuity, the fullness of the Apostolic tradition; that is to say that the Church possesses it. The bishops have a role to play as guardians of the Truth, and when they meet in council -- in accordance with Apostolic precedent -- they have the authority to define Truth in opposition to error. Still, Tradition is defined in more organic ways as well, according to the historical doctrine and practice of the Christian Faith -- or to cite the Vincentian canon "that which has been believed always, everywhere, and by all."
 
What is rejected is not the legitimate role of the episcopacy; what is rejected is the uncanonical form in which it has developed in the West. In the East it is believed that Apostolic Succession extends to the Church through the Apostles, not through the Apostles -- and specfically Peter -- to the Church through Peter's successor.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:48
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