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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Questions for Muslims
    Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 18:50
Many Muslims do not accept the Torah or the Christian New Testement (injeel) because they say it was corrupted. Samy Tanagho a former Muslim asks in his book "Glad News" these questions. Can you respectfully answer them my Muslim friends?

These are the questions for my Islamic scholar friends on A&E

1. When and where did this corruption take place?

2. Who were the Perpetrators?

3. How did they reach a consensus?

4. If there were an orginal Bible different from the one that exist today, where is it so we can make a comparison? What specific textual changes were made to the original manuscripts?

What evidence proves any alterations of doctrines?

Where does it say in the Qu'ran the Bible is corrupt?

I have seen many verses in support of the Torah and Injeel in the Qu'ran.

Surah 2:136 "Say ye: We believe in Allah and the revalation given to us and to Abraham...and that is givne to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)"
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 19:23
Well the Bible itself as agreed by non-Muslims themselves has been changed throughout the centuries, you even have variances between the Greek, and Latin texts, then the Protestant, and Catholic, and so on...

By corruption it refers to the additions to the Bible such as that.

And I think for the Torah it is the same, in other words that the text deviated from its original either slightly or enough for a new law to be needed to complete the cycle.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 19:26
http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm

Here is a basic online source, not an academic one, I just googled the phrase and came up with it, and skimmed it, it gives you the gist of the idea however.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 19:43
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Well the Bible itself as agreed by non-Muslims themselves has been changed throughout the centuries, you even have variances between the Greek, and Latin texts, then the Protestant, and Catholic, and so on... By corruption it refers to the additions to the Bible such as that.And I think for the Torah it is the same, in other words that the text deviated from its original either slightly or enough for a new law to be needed to complete the cycle.


thanks for the reply!

There are many manuscripts from the Bible that date long before the Prophet and todays modern Bible (injeel). They do not differ from those ancient Manuscripts.
Codex Vaticanus - 325-350 AD
Codex Alexandrinus - 400 AD

Codex Sinaiticus 350 AD

24,000 manuscripts from the Injeel that show its accuracy. They found papyrus with sections of the Book of Matthew (Egypt) and even though they were fragments they supported the modern text.

With the Dead Sea scrolls, from 70 AD, all the books of the Torah have been found but the Book of Ester. Some of the script was written 200 years prior to 70 AD. Virtually no difference has been found from the these Dea Sea manuscripts and the modern Torah. I have seen this in several sources.

It does not say this in the Qu'ran so I tend to believe it is an assumption made by scholars of the Qu'ran.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 19:52
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htmHere is a basic online source, not an academic one, I just googled the phrase and came up with it, and skimmed it, it gives you the gist of the idea however.


These are excellent questions so I will save this site and review it. There are sources that also say the same about the Qu'ran- no disrespect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 20:48

1. Over time, through transmission from word of mouth, through reformations and cannoic councils, through schisms and forgetfullness.

2. Everyone. Either intentionally (say by both writing and destroying apocraphil gospels), or unintentionally (blending old pagan religions with Christianity). By people with good intentions (Martin Luthur) or people with bad intentions (Pope Innocent III)

3. They didn't. Do you know how many different versions or Christianity and Judaism are running around?

4. There are no original manuscripts. Thats the whole point. Every a Cannonical council is altering the religion. It is impossible to go back, over 1700 years of church changes, over 250 years of forgetfulness, and (non-)deliberate miswriting to discover the revelation of Jesus (pbuh) with any amount of accuracy. It is just as impossible to go back further, for similar reasons, to find ezikials (pbuh) revelation, or anyone elses.

The way it was written to begin with. The only way you can accept that is to have faith in the church*. Which we don't have.
The codex Vatinicus and Codex Sinaicus do differ from modern bibles as well. Sinaicus IIRC contains apocraphil works, and Vatinicus was actually written over by a mediaeval monk.

Yes, people corrupting the revelation is mentioned several times in the Quran. I'll get the quotes for you later.

btw, Injeel is not the bible. Its the revelation.

 
*Which is why I will never understand protestants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 02:26

For clarity the 4 revalations are supposed to have been

 
1) Torah (David)
2) Zabur (Solomon)
3) Injeel (Jesus)
4) Quran (Muhammad),
 
The first three are all the bible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 02:45
I think there should be only one bible(Acording to islam, bible is words of God).. Even having four bible is a proof for changing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 03:23
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htmHere is a basic online source, not an academic one, I just googled the phrase and came up with it, and skimmed it, it gives you the gist of the idea however.


These are excellent questions so I will save this site and review it. There are sources that also say the same about the Qu'ran- no disrespect.
 
None taken, you've asked for the rationalle behind it, that's one of the sites I just googled up, as far as the changes in the Bible, my professor has suggested that as well, he is professor of Medieval studies, and Christian history, and a devout Christian himself.
 
 


Edited by es_bih - 01-Aug-2007 at 03:25

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 03:35
While we are at it, I have come accross this link as well, which contains an article linking the Dead Sea Scrolls to Quaranic messages...
 
 
 
And also about the accuracy of the Torah.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 20:02
I will look at the suggested web sites but I have to consider the sources and whether these people know Hebrew or Koine Greek otherwise I do not take them serious. I can agree there are errors though but there are many errors in the Qu'ran as well.

But, still nobody has answered my questions. I suggest trying to answer them yourselves instead of posting web sites.

Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 20:46
I'm not an Islamic scholar, I base my opinions on my own beliefs, readings, deductions, however, the websites I just googled for your benefit to see some of the views from the other spectrum.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 22:59
Originally posted by Eaglecap Eaglecap wrote:


But, still nobody has answered my questions.

What do you consider my post to be doing out of interest?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 23:22
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

4. There are no original manuscripts. Thats the whole point. Every a Cannonical council is altering the religion. It is impossible to go back, over 1700 years of church changes, over 250 years of forgetfulness, and (non-)deliberate miswriting to discover the revelation of Jesus (pbuh) with any amount of accuracy. It is just as impossible to go back further, for similar reasons, to find ezikials (pbuh) revelation, or anyone elses.

The way it was written to begin with. The only way you can accept that is to have faith in the church*. Which we don't have.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

*Which is why I will never understand protestants.
 
Who are you referring to in the "we" above?  Muslims?  I would not expect Muslims to have faith in any "church" to begin with, if that is who you mean.
 
Protestants do not have (should not have) faith in the church.  As a Protestant, my faith is in Jesus Christ, the author and perfecter of my salvation.  The church serves as a corporate body of believers who gather for worship and fellowship.  Christ is the head of the church, but we do not place our faith in the church itself; rather, our faith is in God through Christ and his death and resurrection.  I think having actual faith in the church is something that Roman Catholics subscribe to.  The Pope is the head of the Church in their view and there is no salvation outside the Church. 
 
I also believe in the authority of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) and that they were written through inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  For me there is no difficulty in believing this; yes, I can read both Greek and Latin and have a knowledge of church history.  I came to this belief on my own, not just because I was raised this way.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 15:52
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I will look at the suggested web sites but I have to consider the sources and whether these people know Hebrew or Koine Greek otherwise I do not take them serious. I can agree there are errors though but there are many errors in the Qu'ran as well.

But, still nobody has answered my questions. I suggest trying to answer them yourselves instead of posting web sites.

 

Instead of reading online resources for answers, I may suggest you reading Quran first, actually it would be better not to limit yourself to one translation, but many. Anyway that is what I did, and doing.

 

If you study different author's translations, you realize that there are differences attached to their way of understanding.

 

When I see differences, I analyze my understanding first and then I attempt further investigation/study to see/understand how people understand the same verses and their bases of reasoning.

And for the contradictions issue, for the years I am studying as an amateur researcher, I found none. But as for the translations, and arguments concerning the meaning of the versus and even the words, there are still discussions  between people.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2007 at 18:10

 I can agree there are errors though but there are many errors in the Qu'ran as well.

If We are talking about God work, It should not consist of any errors.. If God has errors, why should I call it as god..
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 16:52

Assalamualiakum to you all;

This is my maiden post in this forum and I hope it would be helpful.

As for the issue I would like to tell you something of the history of the Holy Quran and how it came to pass as it is.

First, I believe, and think that most Muslims do, that God has preserved the Quran fro any alteration. It is mentioned in the Quran and I cannot precisely quote the verse but it says in Arabic إنا نحن نزلنا الذكر وإنا له لحافظون "We gave you the quran and We shall preserve it". However, the prophet PBUH did not stay idle and do nothing, a great part of the quran was written during his life and he encouraged his companions to memorize it. Literally thousands of the sahabah memorized the entire Quran including all the  first 4 caliphs and the 10 writers of the quran (including Muawiya I). After the death of the prophet the first caliph Abu Bakr resisted calls to write down the Quran and it was not untill the battle of Al-Yamamah when 70 of the people whose sole occupation was to teach the Quran and thus were called Qurra' were killed when he ordered Zaid bin Thabit, one of the writers of the quran, a memorizer of it and a companion of the prophet to write a universal copy of the quran AFTER reviewing it with all the companions that memorize it and still lived in madinah and they were in the hundreds. The tedious work ended quite early because there no major problems in the text. It was exactly as the prophet told the sahaba espcially that the work finished less than 2 years after his death. This original copy existed and was the source for all the copies until it burned with the great mosue of Madinah if I am not mistaken in the second fire of the mosque about the middle of the 17th century. But this was not the only way that the quran reached us. Before islam, distinguished arab poets had the habit of keeping a "Narrator" that would be the official source of that poet's poems and history, similar to today’s literary executors. And since the Quran is the most important text in Islam it was natural to have narrators for it (as well to the sayings of the prophet PBUH), this chain of narration exits to this day across the islamic world and the system is now called إجازة or Ijazah. A person who obtains this degree is given a very long certificate that contains the list of all the people that narrated the quran stating with the prophet and ending with the person that took  the Ijazah, and I will tell you, these people have the strongest memory a person can have, they know the places of the simples notation in the text by heart and that is saying something. I hope this was good enough for you and sorry for making a big reply.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 22:14
Hi Al Jassas and welcome to AE!
Kilroy was here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 12:45
Originally posted by Scorpius Scorpius wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I will look at the suggested web sites but I have to consider the sources and whether these people know Hebrew or Koine Greek otherwise I do not take them serious. I can agree there are errors though but there are many errors in the Qu'ran as well. But, still nobody has answered my questions. I suggest trying to answer them yourselves instead of posting web sites.

 

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-ansi-: EN">Instead of reading online resources for answers, I may suggest you reading Quran first, actually it would be better not to limit yourself to one translation, but many. Anyway that is what I did, and doing.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>


<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-ansi-: EN"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN>


<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-ansi-: EN">If you study different author's translations, you realize that there are differences attached to their way of understanding.<o:p></o:p></SPAN>


<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-ansi-: EN"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN>


<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-ansi-: EN">When I see differences, I analyze my understanding first and then I attempt further investigation/study to see/understand how people understand the same verses and their bases of reasoning.



And for the contradictions issue, for the years I am studying as an amateur researcher, I found none. But as for the translations, and arguments concerning the meaning of the versus and even the words, there are still discussions  between people.







<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>



i have read most of the Qu'ran but these questions come from a former Muslim and nobody has really made an attempt to answer them. Why? Norm Geislar addresses the mistakes in the Qu'ran and he does know classical Arabic; Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew also. I will rescan the replies just to make sure but so far I do not see any direct answers to my questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 15:35

Thanks Kilroy for your salute.

 

As for your question eaglecap I would like you to read carefully my reply on the history of the Quran. The Quran that we have today is exactly the same that the prophet PBUH taught the muslims back in the early day of islam, and since I do not know the errors that you mention existing in the Quran, would kindly please tell me where they are so that I can give you a full reply. As far as I know, no book in history has been so thoroughly studied and analyzed like the Quran; Muslim scholars mention the existence of at least 52 inter-disciplines of Quranic scholarship and here are a few:

 

 1-Al-Qeraat: which concerns itself with different ways the Quran is read according to different notations and some variation in word that resulted in the different chains of narrators. There are 7 canonical readings of the Quran with difference in pronunciation and some words, but the effect to the meaning of the text is very minimal. There are many books that were written about this subject most importantly is Al-Shatibi (11th century).

 

2- Tafseer; or the explanation of the meaning of the Quran, and the books written in this are in the thousands. Some were written to explain a single verse, others to explain certain verses that have importance to islamic jurisprudence, others were to explain certain suras and finally some were written to explain the whole Quran. Of the last kind here are a few of the scholars that wrote books: Al-Tabari (the historian), Al-Zamakhshari, Al- Sayuti, Al-Saadi, Al-Alosi, Ibn Kathir, Al-Baydhawi, Al-Shinqiti etc.

 

3- Tajweed or the correct recitation of the holy Quran.

 

4- Al waqf wa Al-Ibtida; which is concerned where are the places that certain notation must be placed (this has great importance in Islamic jurispudance).

 

5- The text of the Quran; most scholars agree that the Quran should be written in the same style that it was written during the time of Uthman; i.e. if the shape of the words should be kept exactly as it was written down in the Uthmani text even if it was contrary to the standard word shape, for example, the word for prayer is written as صلاة in standard Arabic, but in Quranic text it is written like this صلوة. But the real importance of this discipline is in word that are written in both the standard Arabic and Quranic shape in Quran, identifying these word is not simple. For example, the word for mercy is رحمة in standard Arabic is found in the Quran along with its Quranic form رحمت .

 

6- The statistics of the Quran, that is how many verses, chapters, words, letters, suras etc that exist in the Quranic text, and I think that the importance of this discipline is apparent. Also, many books were written here.

 

7- And finally, Al-Nasikh wa Al-Mansookh or the Editing verses as I roughly call it, and this is by far the most important of these discipline for both muslims and non-muslims alike since it deal with jurispudance. Certain verses that served their purpose were no longer needed were “edited” by new verses since the Quran was revealed a bit by bit. The editing was either to the text (canceling old verses), the rules of the text while keeping the old verses (the stages of forbidding alcohol) or canceling the text but keeping the rule. The importance of this discipline is apparent when looking to the verses of jihad. The famous “verse of the sword” (the first ten verses of the surat AT-toubah no. 10 I believe) is the center of the issue. Some scholars allege that this verse cancelled the rule of nearly 100 other verses that have favorable to non-muslims so much so as to announce that people have only one of two choices, islam or death  and these are in the minority and non of the mainstream schools adopt this harsh interpretation. Other examples for other verses exit but I am no scholar.

 

Other disciplines exit but I only mentioned the disciplines that will answer your question on why was not the Quran been corrupted as we claim.

 

As for your question about why do muslims think that the bible is corrupted I think that the existence of 40 completely different version of the same book with the earliest of them been written nearly 70 after the alleged death the source (Jesus Christ PBUH) by a man who did not see the source is evidence enough to point out the existence of at least some corruption in the Bible and I wont say anything about the torah or the old testament.

Thank you and sorry for the length.

 

Al-Jassas ibn Murrah

 

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