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Forum Lockedquestion about scythian, turanian and samartian

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Post Options Post Options   Quote TarTar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: question about scythian, turanian and samartian
    Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 03:41
what are the origins of scythian, samartian and turanian people?
 
I personally feel they are of persian decent and originally from Persia...
 
And I think they mixed with Russian and mongolian people in some degrees.
 
If you have any interesting articles about the origins and histories of Scythian samartian and turanian people then please put in this post.
 
As long as we discuss peacefully in a acceptable manner, let this post continue. but if anyone behaves rudely and without self-respect, then let this post be closed immediately...right moderator?
 
bye for now...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sukhbaatar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 04:21
Turanid is Altai, Scythian and Sarmatian both spoke Iranic languages, so there's a difference. However, all three groups were nomadic tribes and nomads don't really care who they mix with as long as she's human Smile
 
Origins of the Scythians and Sarmatians - not so sure. :\
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 04:40
Didn't herdotus say that the Scythians were Thracic? And the Sarmatians used the Draco like the Dacians did, another Thracian sub group.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sukhbaatar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 05:25
Herdotus (however you spell his name) and Plato were greek philosophers not necessarily known for their historical accuracy. It's possible they could be classed as Thracic sure - as Thrace (Northern Greeks along the black sea) is where the Scythians migrated to. Archaelogical findings will be more accurate, but I'm curious if anyone has any achaelogical facts they wish to post - they can answer this question properly I'm sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 00:58
I'm curious of how we are so sure the Scythians migrated into Thrace and not from it? What findings tell us they spoke an Iranian language?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 02:18

I never heard about Thracians roaming somewhere aroung Altai in the Southern Siberia i.e. the realm of Scythians. LOL

The most "valid" prove of the Iranic language of Scythians is perhaps the existence of Ossetians who are believed to be the descendants of Scythians and Sarmatians and still speak Iranic language. Attempts of reconstruction of Scythian language are made based on Ossetian language.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 02:40
Well if the Scythians were Thracian then they would be Thracians roaming the Altai LOL
 
We'd have to discuss Ossetian ethnicity I suppose. What makes them more Scythian then others?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 06:08
Simply because they directly originate from Alans i.e. Sarmatian tribe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 06:13
The adoptation of the Dacian Draco certainly is interesting concerning the Sarmatians. But are the Sarmatians and Scythians directly related? Or did one simply absorb the other as time went on? Perhaps the Scythians were Thracic and the Sarmatians were Iranian.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 08:03
Why do you want to make Scythians Thracians so much?
 
They simply could influence each other after all they were living next door for centuries.
 
 And Herodotus BTW clearly writes that Sarmatians are of the same kin with Scythians.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 23:48
If you mean historic Turanians, then by Avestan accounts they are Iranics with a different language, the term was adopted by some Turks because they replaced the original Iranic speakers in "Turanian" lands.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 00:19
Carpathian Wolf means Thracians not Turanians.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 11-Jul-2008 at 00:20
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 00:38
"Why do you want to make Scythians Thracians so much?"

I don't i just wanted to discuss the idea. Doesn't make a difference to me at all.
 
"They simply could influence each other after all they were living next door for centuries."
 
Oh of course. The Draco was a Dacian specific emblem until the Sarmatians adopted it from them, probably when they allied to fight against the Romans. But before that not even the more southern Thracian tribes or the western ones (depending on if you ascribe to the theory that Illyrians/Dalmatians are also Thracians) had it. In any case it has nothing to do with the Scythians since I don't think they had it themselves.
 
"And Herodotus BTW clearly writes that Sarmatians are of the same kin with Scythians."
 
And he also clearly writes that Scythians were Thracian, so i'm guessing his accuracy on this matter isn't very sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 01:06
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

 
Oh of course. The Draco was a Dacian specific emblem until the Sarmatians adopted it from them, probably when they allied to fight against the Romans. But before that not even the more southern Thracian tribes or the western ones (depending on if you ascribe to the theory that Illyrians/Dalmatians are also Thracians) had it. In any case it has nothing to do with the Scythians since I don't think they had it themselves.
 
It was complitely vice-versa "Draco-standards" were first used by Iranics, Parthians and Sassanids had it as well as Alans and Sarmatians. Moreover similar standards were used by Blue Turks and Avars (they look very similar, but Draco is just replaced by wolfhead very often there). Germanic tribes also used them, which was definitely the Sarmatian influence as well.
 
 
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

 
 
And he also clearly writes that Scythians were Thracian, so i'm guessing his accuracy on this matter isn't very sure.
 
Where does he write this? Could you please give the related quote.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 11-Jul-2008 at 01:07
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 04:40
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

]
And he also clearly writes that Scythians were Thracian, so i'm guessing his accuracy on this matter isn't very sure.
this new, im broadly familiar with that section of the book.
 
 
11. There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria. For the land which is now inhabited by the Scyths was formerly the country of the Cimmerians.
Link
The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, ed. and tr., vol. 3, Book 4, Chapters 2-36, 46-82. New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885]
 
The Massagetae are iranic, lived in what looks like Tadzikistan and are thought of by some as the predessors the Iranic Alans and i would say also Ossets


Edited by Leonidas - 11-Jul-2008 at 04:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 05:00
"It was complitely vice-versa "Draco-standards" were first used by Iranics, Parthians and Sassanids had it as well as Alans and Sarmatians. Moreover similar standards were used by Blue Turks and Avars (they look very similar, but Draco is just replaced by wolfhead very often there). Germanic tribes also used them, which was definitely the Sarmatian influence as well."
 
The Dacians use a Wolf head specifically because of what the Wolf is in Dacian religion. There is even a symbol of a Dacian draco with the Wolf biting the serpent tail symbolizing immortality. But let's ask this, what is the oldest steppe Draco? Perhaps neither influenced the either but simply had a similar idea. After all, all people in the world have a bow, but not all met. Aztecs and Egyptians both had pyramids but neither met.
 
"Where does he write this? Could you please give the related quote."
 
I'm trying to find it. I think I actually got it from someone's link here on this web site. I remember specifically that the term "Thracic" or something like that was used which I found peculiar.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 05:22
The reason I'm asking is because I remember very well that Herodotus gives several detailed accounts of Scythian origins and Thracians are never mentioned in this regard. Herodotus actually also gives depictions of Thracian and Scythian language, customs and religion and they are quite different.
 
About the draco standards, note that they had those "long tails" it was particularly made in order to detect the direction of the wind and shoot the arrows most effectively. A very typical "nomadic" feature IMO.
 
Dragon head generally a very ancient motive of Iranic art going back in time as far as Akhemenid empire.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 06:15
Then it must be Strabo, for some reason I confuse the two. I'll keep searching.
 
The Dacians used their Draco differently. They would with ride them usually at night against the enemy and the wind would pass through the Wolf head and howl scaring the enemy away. The Dacians also used horse archers and archery in general as it was part of their religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 06:29
Horse archery is a very unique skill. It might indicate a very large degree of familiarity with the steppan culture. Horse achery in sedentary cultures is very rare, with some notable exceptions of course like Persians-Parthians but that was due to the nomadic past of those as well.
Likewise horse archery among Dacians might actually indicate the presence of notable Scytho-Sarmatian element among them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 07:08
It doesn't seem too unique when you look at how many people have made use of it. In any case it would be a bit strange that the Dacians managed to fend of Scythians and Sarmatians are different times (along with many other steppe people) with a skill they adopted. Is it really that impossible that they simply used it because of the tactical advantage? The only element that the Scythians really had among the Dacians was the same that the Celts did, and that is being kicked out of Dacia. Sarmatians were allies of the Dacians but by the time the Dacians already had the horse archer "skill".
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