Print Page | Close Window

Modern Greeks and their Acceptance of Byzantium

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
Moderators: Leonidas, es_bih
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=5219
Printed Date: 30-Sep-2014 at 14:50


Topic: Modern Greeks and their Acceptance of Byzantium
Posted By: Constantine XI
Subject: Modern Greeks and their Acceptance of Byzantium
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 01:20

One topic which has come up in the medieval forum and I find personally very interesting is debate over how the Byzantine Empire is viewed by today's Greeks. Interestingly, we have had a huge range of topics centered around Byzantium in the medieval forum, but as Heraclius has pointed out the only members attending such threads are non-Greeks. Why is that?

Is it that Greeks lack an education about the Byzantine Empire? Do they or do they not consider it a part of their heritage? Have they had their perception of Byzantium stained by the derogative historical works of certain authors? How do Greeks view the Byzantine Empire? Why do they show so little interest in it compared to the Classical Age of the Hellenic city-states?



-------------
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.




Replies:
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 01:48

From what I can gather, it is a combination of all of those possibilities.  I have seen a more positive view of Byzantium by Greeks as well.  In many cases where you see a good opinion about Byzantium is in church-going Orthodox Greeks.

I have a friend whose family is Greek (he was born in America) and staunchly Orthodox.  He and his parents have a very positive and almost thankful attitude towards Byzantium, mainly because of the rich heritage that it has bestowed upon their family. 

Also there are many modern Greek historians that have a positive, un-Gibbonlike opinion about the Empire - Angeliki Laiou, Ruth Macrides, Deno Geanakoplos, and just about any Orthodox clergyman who is a scholar.



-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 02:40
As far as I observed Greeks generally like and defend the Byzantine heritage. However, some of them get angry with Byzantine Empire because they destructed the remains of antic Greeks for finding treasures, etc.

-------------


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 03:26

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

From what I can gather, it is a combination of all of those possibilities.

I also think so. Speaking for myself, I do have a generic (but mostly superficial) knowledge on Byzantium. I've read a few books (Runsiman and a few others) but don't see myself able to elaborate in a scholarly discussion, so I prefer to read what you guys write

However, your comments have make me realize this fact and last week I tried to buy a book about Byzantium, but couldn't find anything in the airport's bookstore (apart for novels). So I'd appreciate your recommendations, I have to start somewhere!

Me being an atheist and discarding religion in general, find it difficult to focus on a civilization which was based (as I perceive it) on Christianity. But this mentality of mine has to change, I acknowledge that!

So, waiting for yous proposals and eager to make a serious visit to the bookstore (budget already allocated)!



-------------
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 07:19
As far as I observed Greeks generally like and defend the Byzantine heritage. However, some of them get angry with Byzantine Empire because they destructed the remains of antic Greeks for finding treasures, etc.


You've actually portraid me in your comment.
While undoubtably a major part of my history and I do have strong feelings about that 'era'. I find the sanctions against the "Ethnikoi' ('pagans') far more annoying and have actually driven me away from getting involved in the issue. It was originally getting into the issue that actually drove me further away.

Just one correction, the distructions weren't done to find treasures, but to literally subdue the 'Ethnikoi' and spread Christianity among the population, usually by force. Not being Christian was a wrong move in the early years of the Empire.


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 10:50

 The biggest criticism and most common I hear from Greeks seems to be about the *pillaging* of the ancient world for the enrichment of Constantine's new city and the subsequent quelling of the pagans.

 Being fiercely patriotic as the Greeks are this *lost* heritage to a civilisation they dont really seem to identify with anymore seems to come across in a similar way to the theft of Byzantiums great works in 1204 and similar to the anger towards the Venetians the Byzantines showed subsequently.

 The Byzantines were Greeks, as Greek as the Ancients, so overall how can modern Greeks feel such devotion to the Ancients yet not to a much modern Greek state? which surely by now they must have as much in common with.

 Byzantium is a civilisation you'd think Greece would be proud to have in its long history, its demise at the hand of Greeces demise to the Turks shouldnt of diminished that, what Byzantium originally took from Greece it gave back infinite times over, over the next 1000 years.

 Byzantium seems to have become a battleground between Greeks and Turks, being fierce rivals as they have been for many centuries Byzantium is the focal point of alot of anger each way. Its seems though the Greeks are more interested in arguing over it than learning much about it.

 I think they should be asking how would Greece of been had it not been in control of a civilised empire like Byzantium, but instead any number of barbarians who threatened it over the centuries? who would have done untold carnage and far far more damage than Byzantium ever would of.

 Byzantium.  It didnt deserve to be ignored for centuries on end like it had been and it sure doesnt deserve to be ignored by its own people.



-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 14:42
Originally posted by Yiannis

However, your comments have make me realize this fact and last week I tried to buy a book about Byzantium, but couldn't find anything in the airport's bookstore (apart for novels). So I'd appreciate your recommendations, I have to start somewhere!

Here are my recommendations as to what to start with:

Warren Treadgold. A History of the Byzantine State and Society. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1997.

George Ostrogorsky. History of the Byzantine State. trans. Joan Hussey. NY: Rutgers University Press, 1969 (rev. ed.).

Alexander Vasiliev. A History of the Byzantine Empire, 324-1453. Madison, WI: Wisconsin University Press, 1964 (2nd English ed.). 2 volumes.

Donald Nicol. The Last Centuries of Byzantium 1261-1453. UK: Cambridge University Press, 2002 (reprint).

These are the best general surveys of Byzantium.  Let me know if you want any suggestions for more narrowly focused topics.



-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: BlindOne
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 15:09

Greetings

As i wrote in the medieval forum there are a lot of reason

1)The really luck of education in school and also the way the Byzadium is treat in it. My off-school knowlenge is coming from Norwich and some personal search in internet. There i discover a "new" Byzadium, almost totaly different from the way my books show it.

2) Many people in greece see Byzantium only from the way of religion. To me that's a big strange, in ascient greece also was a religion like in Byzantium and also there was punishments to death is you mock religion, Socrates, Aisopos and more

3)Some other believe that Byzantium was the assasin of ascient culture (by destroying temples, burning books, kill intelectuals etc). But none of them see that "ethnikoi " ( and from christians "ethnikoi" was all the "pagans" not only the ascient greeks, that a crittical point for me) actually killed a lot of christians and destroyed almso temples

I hope that i help a while



Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 16:27
Slaughter me for this, if you think, I'm talking nonsense, but a further reason may be, that contemporay Greece is geographically not identical with the former Byzantine Empire.
In the greater scheme of things, the larger part of today's Greece, especially the strongholds of Greek antiquity, were a backwater of Byzantine history. Apart from Thessaloniki,and Morea in the very last decades, no current Greek city or region, played a major part in the Empire. The regions of Anatolia and Thrace, very much the heartlands of the Empire, its economy and population centres, so much fought over, are no longer Greek, (apart from a little bit). And for an Empire, that was so highly centralised in every aspect, politically, culturally and religiously in one city,Constantinople, to lose its very heart, was also to lose a major point of identification for later generations. I'm sure that the current Italians might have more difficulties to identify themselves with the legacies of the Roman Empire, if Rome were now the capital of, a hopefully still united, Yugoslavia.
So, somewhere they might have been a break in continuity, that prevents today's Greeks to show as much interest in things Byzantine as they show in in their antiquity.

-------------


Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 18:28

Byzantium was a Greek Empire for most of its time, but this empire's heart was in Asia Minor, and not in today Greece. I believe I have good enough knowledge about Byzantium, but when talking about ALL the emperors, I do not know them all. I know myself I am proud of both ancient greece and byzantium, but Byzantium was more of an empire, whiole ancient Greece was different, ununified city states.

We Greeks know that the city, Constantinopoli, was a Greek city, and mosques clouding the sky line cannot change that. Many of the people of the city are turkisized greeks, so perhaps greeks still do populate the city, but not celebrating it as there christian brothers did hundreds of years ago.



Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 20:22

Hi strategos. How are you? Best wishes. Well. Byzantine was a great empire. And ofcourse both turks and greeks are proud of byzantine heritage.

Originally posted by strategos

Many of the people of the city are turkisized greeks.

Many of the people of the city are turkisized Kurds anymore.



-------------


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 21:20
 I was under the impression there was a large population movement from Turkey of Greeks, hundreds of thousands of Greeks relocated back to the homeland, meaning the Greek population in Istanbul and Turkey is now pretty small.

-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 22:12

exchange treaty between turkey and greece in 1923 related to religion. (Muslims-Orthodoxs).  ethnicity has never mentioned in the treaty.

hundreds of thousands of turkish speaking orthodoxs went to greece. And hundreds of thousands of greek speaking muslims came to turkey.

 



-------------


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 11:35
Originally posted by BlindOne



Greetings

As i wrote in the medieval forum there are a lot of reason

1)The really luck of education in school and also the way the Byzadium is treat in it. My off-school knowlenge is coming from Norwich and some personal search in internet. There i discover a "new" Byzadium, almost totaly different from the way my books show it.

2) Many people in greece see Byzantium only from the way of religion. To me that's a big strange, in ascient greece also was a religion like in Byzantium and also there was punishments to death is you mock religion, Socrates, Aisopos and more

3)Some other believe that Byzantium was the assasin of ascient culture (by destroying temples, burning books, kill intelectuals etc). But none of them see that "ethnikoi " ( and from christians "ethnikoi" was all the "pagans" not only the ascient greeks, that a crittical point for me) actually killed a lot of christians and destroyed almso temples

I hope that i help a while


Geia sou BlindOne.

While I will agree on lack of education in our actually quite poor educational system, I don't agree that Hellines don't know their history. I believe they know it quite well and that is what has turned them away from Byzantium.

There is a major difference in what you mention,

Socrates was sentenced because of currupting the youth and desrespect towards the Gods. He literally attacted the ' myths' and Gods, Socrates actually presented the idea of monotheism by supporting the idea of a single God.. The issue is actually closely tied to the defeat of the Peloponnesian war but those were the charges.

Aisopos according to later Roman writers was charged of sacriledge, but even though this is not clear, we find him being killed by the people of Delphoi but no trial here.
This action actually lead to many plagues which were considered as revenge from the Gods for their wrong doing. You must have heard the saying "The blood of Aisopos' refering to te revenge of an innocent's death.

Anyway these two examples of killing can under NO condition be compared to the attrocities preformed against the 'Ethnikoi' while trying to enforce the new religion...
(this will be looong but interesting facts)

Let's take the library of Alexandria for a starter.

The astrophysicist and astrobiologist Carl Sagan that became renowned by his TV series “Cosmos” had once stated that
“if Christianity didn't stop evolution in the Mediterranean we would have reached Mars 500yrs ago”
This coming from the man that was connected to NASA for decades. (Voyager program)

To understand the greatness and the true knowledge that did exist all we need to do is read some of the descriptions.
Aphthonius (spelling) describes the large marble columns and the walls covered in gold and silver.
Suda encyclopaedia describes a large bronze statue with a metal head that was held in the air by a large magnet placed on the ceiling, we know today the complexity and the need of perfect knowledge of natural magnetic (F3 O4) in order to achieve such an accomplishment.
This 'technique' is known today as Magler-Magnetic-Leviation and we find it used in modern trains.

John or by his Hebrew name “Johannan”, Chrisostomos (a stolen name from the great orator Dion Chrisostomos 2 nd cent.) in his work “against jews”  tells us, how the demonic books translated by Ptolemy are kept in the (Serapeio) but the holy Judaic books will not enter this place for demons live there.
This hate is continued by the patriarch of Alexandria Theophilos (guess what we title him today?? A SAINT !!!) who in 391 BC torched the library probably to burn the demons Johannan was talking about, it has been estimated that these demons (of course the “demons” were the books) reached a number between 700.000-2.000.000.

Theodoritus tells us how Theophilos and his religious mob entered the library and destroyed everything in their path. He mentions how they dismantled the statue and cut off its head, from the head he said that rats came running out. So the God was actually nothing more than a house for rats, the head was dragged around town so everyone could see and spread the message, to destroy all similar demon homes on land and sea.

Theodoritus also said in another one of his texts that “as a farmer will do away with the rats that infest his crop for they come from rot and stench, in the same way, we, the farmers of the holy crops will, destroy the devil’s buildings.

All ecclesiastical writers have said in one time or another that the Hellines worshipped demons and rats.
They used this rat story to turn people against the Hellinic knowledge, keep in mind that all this was going on in Egypt, a country that had Gods represented by cats simply because it was the cat that got rid of their huge rat problem.

Funny but, it wasn’t until 1992 that the pope of Rome apologised to Galileo for the persecutions of 1633, makes me wonder when will they apologise to the rest of the world for what this saint Theophilus did???

What about Cyril of Alexandria, another great guy. Oh yeah, he was Theophilus’ nephew. The church prelacy announced that the year 1998 was dedicated to him.

But what did he do?? some may ask
Nothing much, just massacred the top representative of technology in 415 , a woman named Ypatia.
This killer (exactly what he is) according to Suda encyclopaedia while passing outside of Ypatia’s house, saw so many people gathered not only they couldn’t get in but were waiting on the road, after asking someone told him that they are waiting to get a chance to hear Ypatia speak.
So he ordered some men to ambush her and bring her to the church where she was stripped, every bone in her body broken, burned in front of the church and finally cut into little pieces and scattered all over town.


Now let's just look in to 1 century of attrocities

314 Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Empire, he destroys the Oracle of Apollo and tortures the priests to death. He also evicts all 'Ethnikoi' from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigai of Kilikia and many temples of Aphrodite around the Empire

330 Constantine literally loots all temples of Hellas to decorate Constantinople,

335 Constantine destroys temples in Anatolia and Palestine and orders the crucifixion of “all sorcerors and seers” The best example would be the philosopher Sopatros A'.
(note that these “sorcerors and seers” were actually philosophers, mathematicians...etc)

341 Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes ““all sorcerors,seers and the Hellenists.” a large number is either imprisoned or executed.

346 New persecutions against 'Ethnikoi' in Constantinople, the best example would be the orator Libanius accused to be a “magician”.

353 Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”.

354 With a new order all the temples are closed, some of them are turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

He orders the execution of pagan priests.

A new order for the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.

He orders burning of libraries in various cities of the empire.

357  All forms of oracles are banned

359 In Skythopolis, death camps for the torture and executions of 'Ethinikoi' are opened

361 to 363 Flavius Claudius Julianus declares restoration of the pagan cults

363 Assassination of Julian (Guess why).

364  Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

He orders for the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice any form of divination

He orders the confiscation of all properties of the temples and the death penalty for participation in rituals


365  Valens, forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.


370 Valens orders the persecution of 'Ethnikoi' all over the empire. the ex-governor of Antiochia Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed, the philosopher Simonides is burned alive, the philosopher Maximus is decapitated and all the friends of Julian are persecuted

372 Valens orders the governors of Anatolia to exterminate all the Hellines and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New order against all forms of divination and we find the term “pagan” introduced  to demean the 'Ethnikoi'.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus is closed down.

380 Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the empire and Flavius Theodosius, issues a decree that:

 "All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."

The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.

381 Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the empire the temples and libraries are looted or burned down.

Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

The temple of Aphrodite in Constantinoupoli, is turned into a brothel and the temple of  Artemis into a stable.

384 Theodosius orders Maternus Cynegius, to destroy the temples of the pagans in N. Hellas and Anatolia.


385 to 388 Maternus Cynegius, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples.

Thousands of 'Ethniko' are sent to the death camps of Skythopolis.

386 Theodosius forbids any attempt to restore the destroyed temples.

388 The orator Libanius sends his epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius in an attempt to save the few remaining Hellenic temples. Theodosius bans any pulic talk of relion


389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed, the temple of Dionysius is turned into a Christian church, destruction of the temple of Zeus and the pagan priests before being killed by stoning are ridiculein public.


391 Theodosius prohibits not only visits to  temples but also looking at the statues. New persecutions all around the empire that lead to the burning of the Library Alexandria.

392 Theodosius forbids all non-Christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the gentiles” (gentilicia superstitio).The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop “Saint” Epiphanius and “Saint” Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’s edict declares:

    “The ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island.”


393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”, sack of the temples of Olympia.


395 Two new edicts cause new persecutions against pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 A new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants.

397 Arcadius orders that all the still standing pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

399  Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished.

400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the non-Christians of this area.

Anyway, you get the point, we could continue with many more events. I just have to mention the massacre of 7000 'Ethnikoi' in the hippodrome of Thessaloniki by another so called 'Saint' named Theodosios.

I don't know about you, but I am very annoyed (the least I can say) that our Church continues even today to read damnations (ANATHEMA TREIS) every Orthodox Sunday against Platonic teachings, those that study them, teach them...etc.

-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 11:54
This post of you, Phallanx, with some extension, is worth an article, I believe. The dark side of Christendom... something we all know about more or less but something is almost never talked about. The Spanish Inquisition has very bad press but actually only followed a long Christian tradition of book-burning, mass-murder and extremist intolerance. 

-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 12:40

Originally posted by Maju

This post of you, Phallanx, with some extension, is worth an article, I believe. The dark side of Christendom... something we all know about more or less but something is almost never talked about. The Spanish Inquisition has very bad press but actually only followed a long Christian tradition of book-burning, mass-murder and extremist intolerance

I think that this is an unfair qualification of Christianity.  Before we jump the gun, I am not saying that awful things like the Inquisition and the slaughters of the Crusades did not happen, like some idiotic Holocaust-denier.  Book burning, mass murder, and intolerance are not condoned by Christ in the New Testament.  Therefore they are not a "Christian tradition" but a man made one.  Yes they might have been carried out by so-called Christians; however, it is clear that these men would have been and are sinners in the sight of God and to the testament of the Scriptures.



-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 13:17
 I'd like to point out something about Julian the apostates *assassination* in 363, there is no evidence that he was killed because he was a Pagan whatsoever or infact assassinated 

 Julian was killed because he foolishly neglected to put all of his armour on before getting stuck into the thickest of the fighting.

 To quote Norwich on this "According to legend....." "He is said to have been killed by St Mercurius, one of the christian army officers whom he had had executed, but whom the virgin had temporarily resurrected for the purpose" Hardly what i'd call conclusive.

 Anyway, Im not particularly on either side because I think religion is a whole load of nonsense to control the masses anyway, so I couldnt care less if it was pagans or christians or jews or whatever being persecuted,  I have no idea why there religion should make it anymore relevant or have any influence on what I think about the event.

 However I dont seem to recall to many pagans being particularly bothered when Rome was happily persecuting the christians at one point, seemed pretty happy for that to go on. Yet when it happens to them, oh look at us the big victims of everything.

 Again to quote Norwich;

 "he (Julian) wasted his time and energy on a hopelessly quixotic attempt to revive an ill-defined and morubind religion, to the detriment of that which was to give the empire its binding force for a thousand years to come."

 Damn straight I'd say. I'm not pleased to read that thousands of people were killed because of their religion etc, but bloody hell the empire was a damn sight better off with christianity than paganism.

 Why the hell modern Greeks feel an association with people who lived 1700 years ago whom they have practically nothing in common with, the big thing is geographical location. Yet they feel practically no association with a much more modern civilisation they undoubtedly have much more in common with, as far as Im aware modern Greek is from the medieval Byzantine Greek language.

 The culture and religion that was supressed by the Romans isnt Greek culture its ancient Greek culture, something modern Greeks have practically zero real relation to except is seems some sentimental romanticism. 

 It's like me shedding a tear for the ancient Britons when Rome smashed them, ive nothing in common with them whatsoever, no relation to them whatsoever, didnt even speak the same language, so why Greeks have this feeling of connection with ancient Greeks becomes more of a mystery to me the more I think about it.

 This isnt some scathing attack on Greeks (whom I far from dislike) its just the kind of vibe I get when ive talked to Greeks on many forums about this kind of topic before, associating with ancient greeks far more than with byzantium which is much more recent.

 

 



-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 14:35
Well Libanios has recorded that Julius was killed by one of his soldiers because of his pagan beliefs, but anyway I guess this is debatable.

While I really don't know what morubind means, I fail to see why he'd give it that 'ill-defined' title, how can any religion be described as 'ill-defined', who would use this characterization? The only explanation I find is that these are the words of a religious fanatic ....

What I fail to understand is you, trying to prove that we have no connection to the ancients. Yes we are connected to the ancient Hellinic race. Both genetic and anthropologic research proves the continuety.
This very  idea has always been cherished by us
It was
Manuel Palaeologus that spoke of being decsendants of Philip and Alexander, during the first siege of Thessaloniki and it was Theodorus Kolokotronis that spoke of freeing the lands that our ancestors dwelt in and freeing the heritage they left us, the Parthenon...
It was Rigas Ferraios Velestinlis that raised his own flag of war, that according to his own memoirs had the colors of his ancestors, Red, Black and White and had Herakles' Club depicted on it!!!

Modern Hellinic language is actually a continuation of ancient, Byzantine was actually just one of the several evolutionary stages the language passed to reach it's modern form. It is nothing but the language of the Myceneans...so yes our language is that of the ancient Hellines.

As far as culture, again I must disagree with you.
Christianity in Hellas (I'm not familiar to how others practice it) is strongly influenced by the 'pagan' religion of the ancients. There are literally hundreds of sayings, beliefs, superstitions...etc that have passed down to us, all found in ancient texts.
It was literally impossible for the empire to get rid of every single element that connected us to our past so it simply adopted it.
Recently there has been a find of a pagan temple in Lemnos that was in use well into the 11th cent. So you see, even though persecuted, enslaved, killed, tortured...some simply never forgot.


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 16:25

and mosques clouding the sky line cannot change that

No need to be over pessimistic here, so yes, they change that. As an Alevi,we dont go to mosques oftenly, but mosques are what makes Istanbul Turkish...

Many of the people of the city are turkisized greeks

Not at all. Istanbul is a total mixture of lots of different Eastern and Balkanian ethnicities, from Arab to Bosniak, from Rum to Azeri. But I should agree on some point that they would have high admixture of Rum blood. But so what? They are as Turk as me, a Turkmen, now.

Izmir and Trabzon are in similar situations with Istanbul, with high amounts of Rum blood, but so what? Izmýr was the city which have resisted the Greek invasion until death, and Trabzon is the most nationalist city of Turkey. We have lots of very original Turkish cities who dont give a damn about such issues, such as Mersin, half yoruks, immigrated from Taurus.

  that prevents today's Greeks to show as much interest in things Byzantine as they show in in their antiquity.

That's for sure. But the Rums of Turkey were always the owners of Konstantiniye, they are the real inheritors of the Byzanthine heritage. Not Greeks of Greece.

meaning the Greek population in Istanbul and Turkey is now pretty small

Yes, unfortunately. I am very sad for both Turkish and Greek governments mistakes and cruel actions against the Rums of Turkey and Turks of Greece. Rums who immigrated to Greece during the law of population transfer were ignored by the Greeks of Greece, even considered as Turks and didnt marry each other. They dont see themselves belonging to Greece, but Istanbul and Anatolian side of Aegean.

exchange treaty between turkey and greece in 1923 related to religion. (Muslims-Orthodoxs).  ethnicity has never mentioned in the treaty.

hundreds of thousands of turkish speaking orthodoxs went to greece. And hundreds of thousands of greek speaking muslims came to turkey.

Yeah, that's very sad. They were all forced to leave their homes, and settle in villages where they dont even know their language.

And for example the Christans of Karaman were Turks, and they were sent to Greece. Same for the Muslims of beyond Thesellanoiki.


 



-------------


Posted By: Founder222
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 20:28
I believe the reason they(Greeks) don't responed is because they don't view the name Byzantium or Byzantine Empire as the rightful name of that civilization. A french author, I forget his name, who wrote a history book on the subject we are talking about in the 1700 or 1800's started calling the civilization the Byzantine Empire which in fact most Greeks would recall it as Romania

-------------
Founder222


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 10:20
Izmir and Trabzon are in similar situations with Istanbul, with high amounts of Rum blood, but so what? Izmýr was the city which have resisted the Greek invasion until death, and Trabzon is the most nationalist city of Turkey.

 Care to explain exactly who and why would 'resist' the invasion, when we are talking about two cities that were in their majority populated by Hellines???
Did you probably forget the Treaty of Lausanne (population exchange) and where exactly the Hellinic population came from??
That's for sure. But the Rums of Turkey were always the owners of Konstantiniye, they are the real inheritors of the Byzanthine heritage. Not Greeks of Greece.

So according to this logic, the Hellines of Constantinoupoli were more Byzantines than those of the mainland, dispite the fact that Byzantio was a Hellinic empire, we have two classes of Hellines, one more Byzantine than the other
Rums who immigrated to Greece during the law of population transfer were ignored by the Greeks of Greece, even considered as Turks and didnt marry each other. They dont see themselves belonging to Greece, but Istanbul and Anatolian side of Aegean.

Honestly Oguz, where do you get this info????
I have relatives that were forced to leave their house in Pergamos and come to Hellas, where they managed to prosper, with absolutely NO such problems. Yet you present a whole different history for my family....
Seems like you know things better than those that lived it.


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 11:04
 Im sorry but I cannot agree that the Turks are the true inheritors of Byzantium and therefore Romes heritage, the Turks have absolutely no claim to this whatsoever, its a usurped honour the Turks have given themselves if anything. No more claim than the *Latin Emperors* between 1204 and 1261 im afraid.

-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 12:10

Heraclius;

Ironically, Today's Turks have byzantine kitchen culture, Today's Turks have byzantine music culture, Today's Turks have some byzantine rituals (in ISLAMIC life), Today's Turks have DNA of ancient byzantine residents,

as Mehmed The conqueror said, Ottoman Empire is islamic revolution in Byzantine empire.

And this topic should be Modern Turks and Greeks and their Acceptance of Byzantium.

Turks are the TRUE inheritors of Byzantium. But heraclius cannot agree that FACT.

I am proud of Byzantium.



-------------


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 13:00
Originally posted by Phallanx

Quote:
That's for sure. But the Rums of Turkey were always the owners of Konstantiniye, they are the real inheritors of the Byzanthine heritage. Not Greeks of Greece.


So according to this logic, the Hellines of Constantinoupoli were more Byzantines than those of the mainland, dispite the fact that Byzantio was a Hellinic empire, we have two classes of Hellines, one more Byzantine than the other 

The same thing is true for Ottomans. The real characteristics of both empires were observed in Constantinopoli.  The peripherial lands had different characteristics. Both of the summits of Byzantine and Ottoman culture were built in this city... Also in Ottomans the City was called as "Dersaadet= land of happiness"; so the people living there wasn't responsible for military service. This was so until the 19th century. Also as far as I know, the peripharial lands of Byzantium had many different characteristics than the City. Maybe this was because the fact that there wasn't the notion of "citizenship" at those times. The stae was  just taking taxes and providing some public and religious services at those times...

Originally posted by Phallanx

Quote:
Rums who immigrated to Greece during the law of population transfer were ignored by the Greeks of Greece, even considered as Turks and didnt marry each other. They dont see themselves belonging to Greece, but Istanbul and Anatolian side of Aegean.

Honestly Oguz, where do you get this info????
I have relatives that were forced to leave their house in Pergamos and come to Hellas, where they managed to prosper, with absolutely NO such problems. Yet you present a whole different history for my family....
Seems like you know things better than those that lived it.

I heard from some Greek immigrants that they were called "Turkospore" = "seed of Turk", but of course this doesn't mean that everybody behaved like this... 

 

 



-------------


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 13:29
Originally posted by THE TURK

Heraclius;

Ironically, Today's Turks have byzantine kitchen culture, Today's Turks have byzantine music culture, Today's Turks have some byzantine rituals (in ISLAMIC life), Today's Turks have DNA of ancient byzantine residents,

as Mehmed The conqueror said, Ottoman Empire is islamic revolution in Byzantine empire.

And this topic should be Modern Turks and Greeks and their Acceptance of Byzantium.

Turks are the TRUE inheritors of Byzantium. But heraclius cannot agree that FACT.

I am proud of Byzantium.

 I disagree that the Turks are the true inheritors, you may think its a fact but I dont, live with it.

 I couldnt care less what Mehmed said to be perfectly honest that doesnt make a blind bit of difference, just because he says something doesnt just make it so, the Greeks have a stronger claim IMO.

 Greece exists and as Greeks the Byzantine heritage must surely pass to their own people and not to their conquerors who not only had no link tracing back the old Roman empire whatsoever, but simply occupy a portion of territory from the eastern half, having its ancient capital doesnt make it anymore of an inheritance.

 The Turks may do some things similar to that of the Byzantines and their way of life but the heritage of the Byzantine empire passes to the Greeks who I think have much more in common with the Byzantines than the Turks do.



-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 18:01

Heraclius,

DNA analysis shows that The Turks are the byzantines. Byzantine empire always belongs to us.



-------------


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 18:06
The Byzantines, like the Romans, were not a race so DNA can't prove anything. 

-------------


Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 18:06
Originally posted by THE TURK

Heraclius,

DNA analysis shows that The Turks are the byzantines. Byzantine empire always belongs to us.

The Byzantine Empire always, and always will stand for a Christian Empire.

The Ottomans cannot adopt the title of the Byzantine Empire unless they were a Christian Empire.



Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 20:25

Of course, being Byzantine means ideology, principle. In this case DNA can't prove that The Turks have Byzantine ideology. But DNA proves that The Byzantine empire is ex-civilization of "the turks".

And of course The Byzantine Empire was a Christian Empire. And always will stand for a Christian Empire.



-------------


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 21:24
I don't know what you're talking about because there's no such thing as "Byzantine DNA." Whoever conducted the nonsense "research", if it actually exists, probably wanted to advance some nationalitic agenda. "Byzantine" is not a racial identification. The Byzantines were a mixture of many peoples. Even its rulers came from all over the place, from Rome, Macedonia and even Aremenia. 

-------------


Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 21:40
Byzantine DNA? Many were made up of people of current Anatolia, what are you trying to say?

-------------


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 00:27

"Byzantine" is not a racial identification as well as "anatolian turk". We are talking about almost same mixture of peoples. (especially anatolia)

DNA test is very easy job today, And there are a lot of cemeteries of the Byzantines in Turkey. That' s what i am trying to say.

Village by village. As Turks We know perfectly well that ethnography of Turkey.

Byzantine empire always belongs to us

I apologize to you for that quote. Byzantine empire always belongs to humanity. However;
Some westerners
say that "The Byzantine Empire is our great history." And They eat hamburger, I eat byzantine food.
They listen  http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=marilyn - marilyn manson , I listen byzantine music.
They go night club, I go Hagia Sophia.
They live in the west, I live in Istanbul.

That' s what I am trying to say. History isn't only diplomacy, war, treaty, alliance etc.

 



-------------


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 00:43

Originally posted by THE TURK

I listen byzantine music.

Cool, me too!  What kind of Byzantine music do you have on CD? 

My favorite CD of Byzantine music is Music of Byzantium, by Cappella Romana.  It features music from the late period and its release coincided with the NY Metropolitan of Art exhibit "Byzantium: Faith and Power (1261-1557)."

I also have The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, performed by Lycourgos Angelopolous and the Greek Byzantine Choir.  The fourth track (3rd Stanza), the Beatitudes is AWESOME!  So haunting and beautiful.

You should also check out Fragments, by Paul Hillier and Theatre of Voices.  It features religious choral music from East and West during the late middle ages.  "Canon for the Council of Florence (Ode 5)," by John Plousiadenos is amazing and one of seven Byzantine songs on the CD.



-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 02:25
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Cool, me too!  What kind of Byzantine music do you have on CD? 

Turkish Classical Music.



-------------


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 07:48
Byzantine DNA herewith means Byzantine Denominator of National Ancestry. (I made this up myself)

And it quite fits, as most of Balkan, Middle-Eastern and SE Latin regions have a common denominator circa the Byzantine datum of historical timeline (if I don't make much sense it's because I didn't sleep much last night).

-------------
CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: BlindOne
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 10:58

Originally posted by Phallanx

Originally posted by BlindOne



Greetings

As i wrote in the medieval forum there are a lot of reason

1)The really luck of education in school and also the way the Byzadium is treat in it. My off-school knowlenge is coming from Norwich and some personal search in internet. There i discover a "new" Byzadium, almost totaly different from the way my books show it.

2) Many people in greece see Byzantium only from the way of religion. To me that's a big strange, in ascient greece also was a religion like in Byzantium and also there was punishments to death is you mock religion, Socrates, Aisopos and more

3)Some other believe that Byzantium was the assasin of ascient culture (by destroying temples, burning books, kill intelectuals etc). But none of them see that "ethnikoi " ( and from christians "ethnikoi" was all the "pagans" not only the ascient greeks, that a crittical point for me) actually killed a lot of christians and destroyed almso temples

I hope that i help a while


Geia sou BlindOne.

While I will agree on lack of education in our actually quite poor educational system, I don't agree that Hellines don't know their history. I believe they know it quite well and that is what has turned them away from Byzantium.

There is a major difference in what you mention,

Socrates was sentenced because of currupting the youth and desrespect towards the Gods. He literally attacted the ' myths' and Gods, Socrates actually presented the idea of monotheism by supporting the idea of a single God.. The issue is actually closely tied to the defeat of the Peloponnesian war but those were the charges.

Aisopos according to later Roman writers was charged of sacriledge, but even though this is not clear, we find him being killed by the people of Delphoi but no trial here.
This action actually lead to many plagues which were considered as revenge from the Gods for their wrong doing. You must have heard the saying "The blood of Aisopos' refering to te revenge of an innocent's death.

Anyway these two examples of killing can under NO condition be compared to the attrocities preformed against the 'Ethnikoi' while trying to enforce the new religion...
(this will be looong but interesting facts)

Let's take the library of Alexandria for a starter.

The astrophysicist and astrobiologist Carl Sagan that became renowned by his TV series “Cosmos” had once stated that
“if Christianity didn't stop evolution in the Mediterranean we would have reached Mars 500yrs ago”
This coming from the man that was connected to NASA for decades. (Voyager program)

To understand the greatness and the true knowledge that did exist all we need to do is read some of the descriptions.
Aphthonius (spelling) describes the large marble columns and the walls covered in gold and silver.
Suda encyclopaedia describes a large bronze statue with a metal head that was held in the air by a large magnet placed on the ceiling, we know today the complexity and the need of perfect knowledge of natural magnetic (F3 O4) in order to achieve such an accomplishment.
This 'technique' is known today as Magler-Magnetic-Leviation and we find it used in modern trains.

John or by his Hebrew name “Johannan”, Chrisostomos (a stolen name from the great orator Dion Chrisostomos 2 nd cent.) in his work “against jews”  tells us, how the demonic books translated by Ptolemy are kept in the (Serapeio) but the holy Judaic books will not enter this place for demons live there.
This hate is continued by the patriarch of Alexandria Theophilos (guess what we title him today?? A SAINT !!!) who in 391 BC torched the library probably to burn the demons Johannan was talking about, it has been estimated that these demons (of course the “demons” were the books) reached a number between 700.000-2.000.000.

Theodoritus tells us how Theophilos and his religious mob entered the library and destroyed everything in their path. He mentions how they dismantled the statue and cut off its head, from the head he said that rats came running out. So the God was actually nothing more than a house for rats, the head was dragged around town so everyone could see and spread the message, to destroy all similar demon homes on land and sea.

Theodoritus also said in another one of his texts that “as a farmer will do away with the rats that infest his crop for they come from rot and stench, in the same way, we, the farmers of the holy crops will, destroy the devil’s buildings.

All ecclesiastical writers have said in one time or another that the Hellines worshipped demons and rats.
They used this rat story to turn people against the Hellinic knowledge, keep in mind that all this was going on in Egypt, a country that had Gods represented by cats simply because it was the cat that got rid of their huge rat problem.

Funny but, it wasn’t until 1992 that the pope of Rome apologised to Galileo for the persecutions of 1633, makes me wonder when will they apologise to the rest of the world for what this saint Theophilus did???

What about Cyril of Alexandria, another great guy. Oh yeah, he was Theophilus’ nephew. The church prelacy announced that the year 1998 was dedicated to him.

But what did he do?? some may ask
Nothing much, just massacred the top representative of technology in 415 , a woman named Ypatia.
This killer (exactly what he is) according to Suda encyclopaedia while passing outside of Ypatia’s house, saw so many people gathered not only they couldn’t get in but were waiting on the road, after asking someone told him that they are waiting to get a chance to hear Ypatia speak.
So he ordered some men to ambush her and bring her to the church where she was stripped, every bone in her body broken, burned in front of the church and finally cut into little pieces and scattered all over town.


Now let's just look in to 1 century of attrocities

314 Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Empire, he destroys the Oracle of Apollo and tortures the priests to death. He also evicts all 'Ethnikoi' from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigai of Kilikia and many temples of Aphrodite around the Empire

330 Constantine literally loots all temples of Hellas to decorate Constantinople,

335 Constantine destroys temples in Anatolia and Palestine and orders the crucifixion of “all sorcerors and seers” The best example would be the philosopher Sopatros A'.
(note that these “sorcerors and seers” were actually philosophers, mathematicians...etc)

341 Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes ““all sorcerors,seers and the Hellenists.” a large number is either imprisoned or executed.

346 New persecutions against 'Ethnikoi' in Constantinople, the best example would be the orator Libanius accused to be a “magician”.

353 Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”.

354 With a new order all the temples are closed, some of them are turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

He orders the execution of pagan priests.

A new order for the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.

He orders burning of libraries in various cities of the empire.

357  All forms of oracles are banned

359 In Skythopolis, death camps for the torture and executions of 'Ethinikoi' are opened

361 to 363 Flavius Claudius Julianus declares restoration of the pagan cults

363 Assassination of Julian (Guess why).

364  Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

He orders for the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice any form of divination

He orders the confiscation of all properties of the temples and the death penalty for participation in rituals


365  Valens, forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.


370 Valens orders the persecution of 'Ethnikoi' all over the empire. the ex-governor of Antiochia Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed, the philosopher Simonides is burned alive, the philosopher Maximus is decapitated and all the friends of Julian are persecuted

372 Valens orders the governors of Anatolia to exterminate all the Hellines and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New order against all forms of divination and we find the term “pagan” introduced  to demean the 'Ethnikoi'.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus is closed down.

380 Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the empire and Flavius Theodosius, issues a decree that:

 "All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."

The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.

381 Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the empire the temples and libraries are looted or burned down.

Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

The temple of Aphrodite in Constantinoupoli, is turned into a brothel and the temple of  Artemis into a stable.

384 Theodosius orders Maternus Cynegius, to destroy the temples of the pagans in N. Hellas and Anatolia.


385 to 388 Maternus Cynegius, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples.

Thousands of 'Ethniko' are sent to the death camps of Skythopolis.

386 Theodosius forbids any attempt to restore the destroyed temples.

388 The orator Libanius sends his epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius in an attempt to save the few remaining Hellenic temples. Theodosius bans any pulic talk of relion


389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed, the temple of Dionysius is turned into a Christian church, destruction of the temple of Zeus and the pagan priests before being killed by stoning are ridiculein public.


391 Theodosius prohibits not only visits to  temples but also looking at the statues. New persecutions all around the empire that lead to the burning of the Library Alexandria.

392 Theodosius forbids all non-Christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the gentiles” (gentilicia superstitio).The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop “Saint” Epiphanius and “Saint” Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’s edict declares:

    “The ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island.”


393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”, sack of the temples of Olympia.


395 Two new edicts cause new persecutions against pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 A new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants.

397 Arcadius orders that all the still standing pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

399  Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished.

400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the non-Christians of this area.

Anyway, you get the point, we could continue with many more events. I just have to mention the massacre of 7000 'Ethnikoi' in the hippodrome of Thessaloniki by another so called 'Saint' named Theodosios.

I don't know about you, but I am very annoyed (the least I can say) that our Church continues even today to read damnations (ANATHEMA TREIS) every Orthodox Sunday against Platonic teachings, those that study them, teach them...etc.

Phallax geia sou kai se esena

First i want to apologise since i reply late to your topic. Well i have to disapgree with you in some points. Greeks knows many about their history (i am wrong know many of the history of ascient Athens not others greek cities, since all books focus on the Golden age in 500BC) in ascients time. Take a book of history and you are going to find to little about byzantine history, also in the  time we focus at the last decates of byzantine history. Hell i learn about Hetraclius from Norwish 4 year since i finish school and when i last mention him to a friend in the first time he believed that i was talking to Hercules (yes we know Byzantine history very well...............)

Second i don't know about church much, i don't go to church and i don't pay attation, i am christian only in name, nothing else, so i can't speak with you about the anathena............

3) About the reasons that you believe we abadon (as a punish) Byzantine history. I have some difficulties to reply to you about that because i don't know you. Anyway i will apologice from know if i making a mistake about you.

 I need to know your origins. Because those Thinks i hearded then from some ULTRA nationlagist here in greece who believe in ascient gods (yes we have some of them). We could reach mars 500 years ago???????? Sorry but that's is nonsence. One of you origins is a book called "agaist Jew" and you execpt me to believe anythink is written in there?????

 Also almost all the ascient temples in greece was destroyed by the goths , Enthiki also killed christian before, Dioklitianos, Caliculas. I stop here because i need to know your origins as i said before because i have the feeling that all the above are coming from not scientific origins...........



Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 12:42
Originally posted by THE TURK

"Byzantine" is not a racial identification as well as "anatolian turk". We are talking about almost same mixture of peoples. (especially anatolia)

DNA test is very easy job today, And there are a lot of cemeteries of the Byzantines in Turkey. That' s what i am trying to say.

Village by village. As Turks We know perfectly well that ethnography of Turkey.

Byzantine empire always belongs to us

I apologize to you for that quote. Byzantine empire always belongs to humanity. However;
Some westerners
say that "The Byzantine Empire is our great history." And They eat hamburger, I eat byzantine food.
They listen  http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=marilyn - marilyn manson , I listen byzantine music.
They go night club, I go Hagia Sophia.
They live in the west, I live in Istanbul.

That' s what I am trying to say. History isn't only diplomacy, war, treaty, alliance etc.

 Byzantine history has undeniable links to the west with its links to the Roman empire, not to mention Christianity a religion almost every western country shares. 

 Just because we dont all live in Istanbul is about as irrelevant as something can possibly get  what the hells that got to do with anything?

 Your an expert on western society now are you?

 1, I dont eat hamburgers 2, I dont listen to Marilyn Manson  3, I find nightclubs boring in the extreme and 4, I cant help where im born.

 Anymore stunning insights on the western world I eagerly await.

 Anyway, there are major differences between Byzantium and Turkey.

 Different religion and language are the big ones, modern Greeks speak the same language as the Byzantines, same religion, are are far more similar to the Byzantines than the Turks are. Turkey is a Muslim country and is obviously a majority Turkish speaking country.

 Greece has ties back to the old Roman empire moving onto the Byzantine empire and was under imperial control for well over 1000 years sharing its history, development, rise and fall, the Turks were not apart of the empire, so how can they inherit it? simply conquering the remnants of the Byzantine empire isnt all there is to it, as Greeks the heritage and legacy of the Byzantines passes to their own people the modern Greeks and not the Turks whom they had barely anything in common with.

 



-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 13:17
As I said I do agree that our educational system is quite poor and we really don't get into these 'issues' in depth.
While I really can't definitely speak about foreign educatioal institutions, I think Heraclitus' knowledge on the Byzantine empire is based on his own personal interest, research, reading and not because of some class he took at the age of 15 in gymnasio or later in lykeio. Of course we'd have to wait for him to clear that one for us...

As for Heraclius, maybe you did a bit too much 'kopana' (play hookey) cause I remember quite well that we were taugh about that era and that was several years ago.....
A little search on today's school books actually shows that the entire history lesson of the second class of gymnasio is dedicated to the empire.
http://www.dardanosnet.gr/home/book-details.php?id=126 - http://www.dardanosnet.gr/home/book-details.php?id=126

So it must be out of lack of interest that most don't get deeper into the issue and feel that this quite superficial info is adequate or simply forget about being taught about it.
My second post must have mislead you, as I said in my first post this is the reason I was driven away from the issue and not why everyone is, so scratch that part where I generally speak for everyone...

I never could manage connect nationalism to any religion....
While I'm not one of those that believe in the ancient Hellinic Pantheon, I can't find anything wrong with what God anyone chooses to believe in. I don't classify people based on religion, good Muslim, bad Buddhist, good Protestand...etc. Sorry but that is rediculous...

As for Mars, these aren't my words but those of an astrophysicist and  astrobiologist that has been in NASA for years, so he obviously knows what he's talking about...  We could get into the knowledge that was literally destroyed with examples but that is a different topic.

By origins I think you mean source, so what is wrong with my quoting Saint John Crysostomos, he was considered good enough to receive the title of 'saint' but not good enough to be used as a source???
The book mentioned, a homily actually is just one of many. He's also wrote one for Romans, for Galatians, Ephessians, Corinthians....etc.

As for 'scientific origins', I can assure you that these are all recorded FACTS. Try doing a simple search in the online Catholic encyclopedia found here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/
You'll see all the above posted FACTS to be very real.

Look up Libanius' (peri ton leron) which is all about the destruction of temples by Theodosius, read the Code of Theodosius, try looking up the workshop of Pheidias which was forcively turned in a church, look up the use of the Ephessos marbles in Agia Sophia....etc

I really couldn't care less about what the allegedly civilized Romans did in their Colosseum or the barbaric Goths did in the 3rd cent which definitely didn't have the extent you mention..
It is a fact that the falsely accused of killing Christians, Hellines Ethnikoi, were literally massacred for their beliefs in an attempt of forcive conversion, as seen in the Hippodrome of Thessaloniki.
I suggest you read 'The decline and fall of the Roman empire' by Edward Gibbon. You'll find more than enough info in there.




-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 13:26

Originally posted by Phallanx

As for Heraclius, maybe you did a bit too much 'kopana' (play hookey) cause I remember quite well that we were taugh about that era and that was several years ago.....
A little search on today's school books actually shows that the entire history lesson of the second class of gymnasio is dedicated to the empire.
http://www.dardanosnet.gr/home/book-details.php?id=126 - http://www.dardanosnet.gr/home/book-details.php?id=126

 Since we wernt taught about Byzantium in school whether I played hookey or not wouldnt of made the slightest bit of difference.

 If I spoke Greek I might be able to understand a damn word on that link, im actually abit puzzled of the point your trying to get across to me in the above section ive quoted.  I didnt bring up school or lessons once, perhaps im missing something but at the moment im thoroughly confused.

 Not feeling especially well at the moment so ive probably missed some blatently obvious point your trying to make haha.



-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 13:29
This is interesting: When we speak of ethnicity everybody here claims that Turks are Turkified Hellens and when a Turkish guy says "I also own Byzantine legacy" everybody opposes. Of course Ottomans and Seljuks were Turkish and Muslim and Greeks have much more in common with the Byzantine Empire but Turks didn't get a tabula rasa. I mean, there was a society, there were state institutions, land regime, taxation system etc. Ottomans adopted some of these and they were in a cultural interaction with Greeks; so Byzantium isn't totally alien to Turkish people. At least they pray (not me because I'm an atheist) in Byzantine style mosques!

-------------


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 13:33
Heraclius

WOW, calm down

You totally misunderstood my post, when I said Heraclius I wasn't talking about you but the emperor Heraclius that BlindOne mentioned not knowing of since he was never taught of him in school.....


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 13:34
 Told you I must have missed something  no wonder I hadnt a clue what you were on about  

-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 13:35


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 14:47

By the way, I thinkyou missed my post  when the page changed as you were posting.



-------------


Posted By: BlindOne
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 16:20

Phallax

I may be too old and enducation systen may have been changed since i finish school, but before 8-5 years those thinks wasn't in books, and i didn't make much kopana in school.

I also never criticise anyone from his religion believes BUT those guys i have mention before their believes have many commons with your word.  The problem with them isn't their religion, but their nationalism god if you ever hear to them you will think the worst for them.

As for the mars, Every scientist can say that he believe, but is he right in every word he sais, No. To clame that in ascient time there was a supreme technology is a my out off common logic. If that was true why they continuw to fight with such a primative way (swords axes etc), don't comfuse the muth with the reality, and from my studies in university (i am a pharmacologist) i can asume you that the health system in Byzantium was much better than in ascient greece, or anywhere in ascient world. The knowlegde of the past haven't actually get lost as many clame.

Also why you pass so easily the massacre of the christians by the Ethnics ? A life of a christians has lesser value? Look in all civil wars (even ours in 1945) The winner always threat the defeated in the same way, oh and yes i recognize that christians have many reasons to revenge the Ethnikoi, also notice that in those Christians there was Many many greeks.

You mention thessaloniki. If i am right there was a riot and believe me in a riot you never ask for religion (you don't have the time) so i believe that there wasn't massacred 7000 Ethnikoi, but 7000 peoples (from any religion). Else with that logic in Constantinuple where killed 30000 Enthikoi.............

You also ask me to read Gibbon, but the morden scientist don't accept him anymore, and his work was just just a big false (maybe you should find some more origins about that time  .

I don't say that christianity hasn't  a dark side, but what religion haven't one? I don't say that mistakes haven't been done, but really you believe that the ascient world haven't collapse from his own mistakes? You say that you don't like that period because of her religion, then in my opinion you shouldn't like any period. I never critice a period from the religion nore i will do it know.

Sorry for bad english but i really have years to write and speak them .



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 19:53
BlindOne

If you're old for having finished school 5-8yrs ago, what can I say, for having finished some 13yrs ago (presuming we are talking about lykeio).
The info was there, but unfortunately no links I know of, to show you the text books nor do I have a copy to scan and present in support of what I say. But knowing that the book reform we see is literally taking out parts instead of adding, the fact that it is still there, means it always was...

As for the wanna be neo-'Ethnikoi, yeah I know all about them, I even went and watched one of their 'gatherings'  out of pure interest on the foothill of Olympus just outside Litohoro.
OK, so these people have the deluted idea that Zeus and Apollo will save the world, but they are far from nationalists.....
Hey, who am I to judge them, let them believe anything they want for all I care. They don't preach hatred, not even one word against other religions (from what I saw), so they really don't bother me...
Of course as always, you can find some fanatics that have taken the whole idea way too far and misinterpreted what the 'religion' represents for something it is not, but I think that they are just an exeption.
It would be similar to judging all healthy thinking Muslims based on the acts of a few fanatics or all healthy minded Orthodox Christians based on the actions of the few fanatics that we see burning books even today (remember Androulakis)....

While it is simple logic that Byzantium was probably more 'developed' technologically than the ancient Hellines were, one can not but admire the obviously supreme knowledge for that time.
The burning mirrors of Archimedes, the Catapults, the repeating Catapult made by Dionysus also known as Polybolo, the steam engines of Heron, Heron's flying machine.....etc.. the list is literally endless, but for a different topic...

Let's not get into our civil war, well at least not in this topic.
I never did say anything to imply that I consider the life of an 'Ethniko' more valuable than the life of any Christian, I strongly support that the Hellines Ethnikoi, did nothing against Christians which is totally different to the the Romans. A good example would be when Paul tried to introduce them to Christianity and convert them, they listened, laughed and let him peacefully leave from Athens. Which is very different to what happened to them when Christianity had the 'upper hand'.

While there was a revolt in Thessaloniki against Theodosius for enforcing the Gothic guard uppon the Hellines, his action was after the revolt ended and was clearly out of revenge for the death of a general (don't remember the name) which is why we see him dealing with the sentence of excommunication.. (aforismos)

You may not consider E.Gibbon credible which is totally OK by me (I would like a list of these modern historians though) but he was one of the most influential historians...anyway as I said the info is in the Catholic encyclopedia do look it up, you'll find it does support everything I posted.

Hmmm, well my not accepting Christianity as they present it is quite different to what I said. I never said anything about the religion, I said the attrocities against the Ethnikoi drove me away from the Byzantine era. The attrocities of a people that allegedly believe in a religion that claims to be based on 'love'.

As for my personal beliefs, again not really knowing if this is how Orthodox Christianity is practiced abroad.
I just can't stand being told to marry in the name of the pederastic murderer Abraham,
I can't accept my wife (sometime in the future) being told that she should follow the path of Sarah, which is that of a woman that literally prostituted herself,
I can't stand being told to 'rest in the arms of Saul', why not in the arms of Christ which is what I believe in, aren't we Christians..
While I don't judge people for their religious beliefs I strongly critisize all those that allegedly follow the religion but instead do the opposite as their actions prove...



-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: BlindOne
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 09:02

Phallanx

My only knowlenge for our books in scholld comes from the books i have when i was in gymnasio, i am not remember to have Byzantine history in lykeio.  I am not informed for possible changes what happened to book since then.

Second about the Neo-ethniki topic, i don't want to go any further in that, coz i almost oppose any religion. I also hate fanatisc (include christians, muslin,etc). I was only refering to them because some of the thinks you write where strongly common with their believes (that's why i apologise to you if you haven't any common with them). It's obviusly that i don't agree with em at all .

For the aschivement, i just try to show you that that era of time had her own aschievements too, nothing else.

Hmm the only think that we may disagree is that you believe that ethnikoi didn't do anythink against the christian. Here i totaly disagree. Greeks was in both camps. The was many christian greeks and there was many Ethnikoi greeks (is a religion differens). Many greeks also served in romans armies. When the roman emperors started to hunt christians for their believes haven't many greeks died in coloseum, have many greeks excecuted from others greeks that served in roman armies?

 As for the modern Historians list i have only read Norwich and runsiman (if i write him right).



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 10:43
Well lykeio was mentioned to define when we finished school and age, not when this was taught. Anyway, ackowledging that the historic accounts are correct doesn't really mean I accept what they consider their  religion.
Should we only make reference to the parts of history that glorify us and not to the parts that, to put it politely, degrade the glamour we want to/have to  believe in???

As for religion, not an easy subject but let's give it a shot..

I don't believe in religions but in religious people, I don't see philosophy but a philosopher, I believe there is no such thing as art but an artist, there is no science but a scientist.

Just in case this may puzzle you,

If someone studies the beaux arts all his life, he may manage to be a great historian of art, an excellent teacher, but may never accomplish to be anything better than a mediocre artist. I think that the same can happen in science, phylosophy..etc

So if religion is an inner spiritual experience that leads you to your personal unification with God (whatever God), there is very little that you can obtain in this 'journey' by reading books, studying sects, talking to priests or by generally following a specific path other than your own...
The real 'journey' is spiritual, it's inner, it should be inspirational, based on  love and everyone understands this experience quite differently than the other or one may never understand it at all.

Plethon mentioned above, tells us of the theory of circles and rythm, that everything has it's time, and everything comes to an end, everything advances and then degrades, everything goes up and then comes down, just like a pendulum.

Unfortunately Rome was the end for the civilization of Hellas, Rome was literally a bad immitation. But Christianity, Orhtodox Christianity to be exact, literally revived that civilization and Hellas through the Byzantine empire advanced, prospered and once again enlightened humanity.

What I'm trying to say is that I see no fault in the religion itself,  but in those that in their 'journey' (if they understand it) have literally taken the wrong path and manipulated the religion, presenting their degraded character as a representative of it..

Please don't compare the barbarous Romans and their colosseum to the enslaved at that time Hellinic Ethnikoi. The real Hellines Ethnikoi and not the charlatan wanna-be's mentioned above, never did preform anything similar to these attrocities in the name of any God.






-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 12:57

Different religion and language are the big ones, modern Greeks speak the same language as the Byzantines, same religion, are are far more similar to the Byzantines than the Turks are. Turkey is a Muslim country and is obviously a majority Turkish speaking country.

I will not prented that the Greeks and Britons are similar nations and share common traditions in everyday life, like Greeks share with the Turks for instance. - Theodoros Pangalos Greek Foreign Minister.

Loading animation ....

 

 

 



-------------


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 12:59
That's one cool map. It's a shame, it isn't interactive. One should change a few things then.

-------------


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 13:26

 Nice map and nice quote, sadly doesnt improve Turkeys claim to inheritance of the empire's heritage one bit more.

 Greece and Turkey may have similarities, but Byzantium as Greek and as Christian must be more greatly linked with Greece than Turkey, since Greece exists it must be considered the holder of Byzantiums legacy and continuation.

 As many similarities there may be between Byzantium and Turkey there are many major differences that must mean Turkey cant be a true successor.



-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 22:22

I just want to say I am thrilled that you are fighting over Byzantine heritage rather than trying to disown it, Gibbon my be turning in his grave.

Blind One: I think the French historian Du Cange was the one who actually termed this civilization the Byzantine Empire.

Getting back to my original area of curiosity after being deprived of the internet longer than I would have liked, why is it I can post something about Athens, Sparta etc and I will have a dozen or so Greek members jump in with comments but we have a heap of topics in medieval forum about the Byzantine Empire and only the following people reply: A German, a Briton, a Filipino, an American and an Australian?



-------------
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.



Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 04:40
What can i say?We are not interested in the Byzantine Empire.

-------------
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 09:43

Care to explain exactly who and why would 'resist' the invasion, when we are talking about two cities that were in their majority populated by Hellines???

Why? Maybe because they were living as brother with Turks in the region for 600-700 years, or because Greek troops were also burning the Rum towns and killing Rums, such as the ones in Fethiye. You should understand the fact that the Greek army wasnt a savior for them, but a disaster.

Honestly Oguz, where do you get this info????

From my socialist friend, Orhan, who have been in Greece and Greek island several times. He works in Foreign trading office. He is originally from Aydin, a city also suffered from Greek invasion, and faced the terrible population exchange.

He have spoken with a couple of Rums in Athens, he says they well know Turkish. They were from Istanbul, after the sad happennings of 55, they immigrated to Greece. They were kind of cuarantined there.

that were forced to leave their house in Pergamos and come to Hellas

And we have people here who were forced to leave Northern Greece and move to Kayaköyü in Fethiye here.

Im sorry but I cannot agree that the Turks are the true inheritors of Byzantium and therefore Romes heritage

Of course you cant, because such idea hurts the pride of general, superior western view. But dont worry, I cant agree too. I dont think I have anything to do with a Byzanthine heritage, as a Turkmen of Anatolia, but believe me, Ottoman Empire had.

Ironically, Today's Turks have byzantine kitchen culture, Today's Turks have byzantine music culture, Today's Turks have some byzantine rituals (in ISLAMIC life), Today's Turks have DNA of ancient byzantine residents,

Sorry to dissappoint you, but we have NOTHING related with Byzanthine cuisine, Byzanthine culinary or Byzanthine inheritance in Anatolia except Aegean coasts. But if you mean Istanbulites, they are the true sons of Byzanthine inheritance. As an Anatolian Turk, you should all believe me, because I am as objective as a kangaroo here...

I am proud of Byzantium.

lol And I am proud of the Göktürk Khaghanate...

not to their conquerors

Well, it depends. Istanbul was conquered by true Turks, but the Istanbulite population isnt at all.

DNA analysis shows that The Turks are the byzantines. Byzantine empire always belongs to us

No f**ki* true DNA tests show such thing. We arent Byzanthines. If you are, dont say Turks, but Istanbulites in general. But I also dont agree with that, Istanbul is a mix of lots of different ethnicities from Turkmen to Serb.

The Ottomans cannot adopt the title of the Byzantine Empire unless they were a Christian Empire

Was the Roman Empire a Christian one in the beginning? Did it became the Roman title by adopting Christianity from Paganism? Ottoman Empire was true successor of Rome, believe it or not.

They go night club, I go Hagia Sophia

lol I didnt know Hagia Sofia was serving as a night club, but if it did, I would be desperate to visit there and disturb the Istanbulite beauties there...

Turkish Classical Music.

Classical music is trash in my opinion. Real Turkish music is the music of Aþýk Veysel, music of Dadaloglu, turkus of Anatolia. Not with kanun or baglama, but with our kopuz and other saz. Real Turkish music is Turkish Halk music.

I will not prented that the Greeks and Britons are similar nations and share common traditions in everyday life, like Greeks share with the Turks for instance. - Theodoros Pangalos Greek Foreign Minister.

"Everyone should know whose son he is, as a Turk, we are the sons of Ottoman Empire and Turkish ancestry." - Kürþat Tüzmen, as a respond to Jacques Shirac's claim of Byzanthine brotherhood with Turks.

And I hated that map. Why? Because it shows Hellens as the first ones to gain Anatolia. They just colonized its coasts sometime. If we are the sons of anatolia, we are the sons of Hittites, Hatti, Lydians, Hurrians etc. Anatolia- land of Hatti. Land of Turk, land of Armenian, land of Laz, land of Rum, but not land of Hellines.

Istanbulites having cultural elements from Byzanthine heritage doesnt make them Byzanthines. Greeks eat bureki and dolmaki, they drink tsorbas, raki and become tszakirkeyf, they listen baglamas, they say "aman!", they say "ai siktir" when became angry, and they live on old Ottoman lands. Does that make them the inheritors of Ottoman heritage?

Cultural and linguistic exchanges were for both nations, even heavier for Greeks than we were influenced by them. Constantinople meant Byzanthine Empire, and it also meant Ottoman Empire. So we agree on some point, all Istanbulites are the inheritors of both Byzanthine and Ottoman heritage. But about Anatolian Turk, such claims arent only wrong, but some can see they are funny if they travel around Anatolia.



-------------


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 11:42

I am proud of the Göktürk Khaghanate...

I am proud of Byzantine Empire, Mehmed II. was proud of the Byzantine Empire as well.

Classical music is trash in my opinion. Real Turkish music is the music of Aþýk Veysel, music of Dadaloglu, turkus of Anatolia. Not with kanun or baglama, but with our kopuz and other saz. Real Turkish music is Turkish Halk music.

   Turkish Classical music is our culture. believe it or not. 

And I hated that map. Why? Because it shows Hellens as the first ones to gain Anatolia. They just colonized its coasts sometime. If we are the sons of anatolia, we are the sons of Hittites, Hatti, Lydians, Hurrians etc. Anatolia- land of Hatti. Land of Turk, land of Armenian, land of Laz, land of Rum, but not land of Hellines.

We are the sons of anatolians... So We are the sons of the architect of Hagia Sophia. We are the sons of the architect of Suleymaniye mosque.

Greeks eat bureki and dolmaki, they drink tsorbas, raki and become tszakirkeyf, they listen baglamas, they say "aman!", they say "ai siktir" when became angry, and they live on old Ottoman lands. Does that make them the inheritors of Ottoman heritage?

All of those foods are byzantine origin.



-------------


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 12:09
Why? Maybe because they were living as brother with Turks in the region for 600-700 years, or because Greek troops were also burning the Rum towns and killing Rums, such as the ones in Fethiye. You should understand the fact that the Greek army wasnt a savior for them, but a disaster.

You had this crazy tactic of continuously rewriting history.
Where were their so called 'Turkish brothers' when Talaat and Liman von Sanders were slaughtering the innocent Pontian Hellines 1914-1922???
Seems like they were preoccupied helping them
(that's brotherly love for ya)

How on earth did anyone resist against the Hellines when Smyrna was  GIVEN not taken, but GIVEN by the Ottomans to Hellas under the treaty of Sevres 1920 ????
Finally learn the real facts......
From my socialist friend, Orhan, who have been in Greece and Greek island several times.......

Well sorry to disappoint you but your friend, like you doesn't know the facts.
Quarantine???
Man that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Emense problems from suddenly having to assimilate, find food and shelter for 1.500.000 people is one thing but quarantine them is rediculous.
So what if they spoke Turkish, half of the world speaks english, does that make everyone American, British...etc???

As for the rest of your post, it's all been discussed many times before but you just can't understand that you ideas of history have nothing to do with real facts....



-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 12:45

Where were their so called 'Turkish brothers' when Talaat and Liman von Sanders were slaughtering the innocent Pontian Hellines 1914-1922???

Until the Rums were provoked by the British and Russian, they lived in villages where mosques and churches were build together, where they lived in peace.

Slaughtering? I guess you missed the Treaty of Lausanne, where Greeks have accepted the responsibility of all the crimes they comitted, and apoligized. You also missed the organization of Mavri Mira, the one supported by the most loyal, Fener Rum Patriarch. Mavri Mira was terrorizing Trabzon and around terratorries, in the name of a Pontus state. Most active period is about 1919-1920, when Mustafa Kemal arrived Samsun and Sivas.

Droteos, the Patriarch vekil was the one who found this organization. Merzifon American College was their base. They were ducated as "christcrusaders" against Islamic faith there. There were reports found there, apoligizing from Jesus for the Muslim childs they'd sacrifice.

So not that innocent guys at all...

How on earth did anyone resist against the Hellines when Smyrna was  GIVEN not taken, but GIVEN by the Ottomans to Hellas under the treaty of Sevres 1920 ????

Com'on, I agree with you that it was GIVEN to Greeks by Britain according to Sevres, but it was later TOOK by the Anatolian resistance forces, Kuvay-i Milliye under the rule of Mustafa Kemal. There were Turkish rebellion gangs everywhere in Izmir before a Turkish army was formed from all over Anatolian militias, we call them resistance forces. Most of them who were captured by Greek army were executed, the rest, joined Kuvayi Milliye.



-------------


Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 14:19
Originally posted by THE TURK

I am proud of the Göktürk Khaghanate...

I am proud of Byzantine Empire, Mehmed II. was proud of the Byzantine Empire as well.

Classical music is trash in my opinion. Real Turkish music is the music of Aþýk Veysel, music of Dadaloglu, turkus of Anatolia. Not with kanun or baglama, but with our kopuz and other saz. Real Turkish music is Turkish Halk music.

   Turkish Classical music is our culture. believe it or not. 

And I hated that map. Why? Because it shows Hellens as the first ones to gain Anatolia. They just colonized its coasts sometime. If we are the sons of anatolia, we are the sons of Hittites, Hatti, Lydians, Hurrians etc. Anatolia- land of Hatti. Land of Turk, land of Armenian, land of Laz, land of Rum, but not land of Hellines.

We are the sons of anatolians... So We are the sons of the architect of Hagia Sophia. We are the sons of the architect of Suleymaniye mosque.

Greeks eat bureki and dolmaki, they drink tsorbas, raki and become tszakirkeyf, they listen baglamas, they say "aman!", they say "ai siktir" when became angry, and they live on old Ottoman lands. Does that make them the inheritors of Ottoman heritage?

All of those foods are byzantine origin.

The Turk, i may disappoint you but dont act like a fool yani "göz var nizam var Allah askina"!!!

If the food that we eat whas byzantiums food so why do they have Turkish names in first place? Even the ultra nationalist Greeks does use those names, why you think that? Well mostly foods who you make with olives are of byzantian origin, but not at all, like fasulye, burek/börek, etc etc



-------------
OUT OF LIMIT


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 14:42
First I have no idea what the 'vekil', 'fener' you wrote mean, so in future posts do use english 'terms'.

If we are to discuss we do it with facts, don't go lift ideas off some propaganda site and present it as an argument.

Man I just can't help it...

WHERE is there any form of apology in any treaty and specifically in that of Lausanne???
I want you to present the exact part of the treaty that supports your rediculous claims. Here is the treaty:

http://www.lib.byu.edu/%7Erdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html - http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html


What on earth is this Mavri mira??? that organization is obviously a construction of Turkish propaganda circulated by propaganda sites like those turk-yunan...
The REAL organization formed was called 'NOMIMH AMYNA' (legal deffence) another interesting little issue is that  the Patriarch of 'Trapezounta' (Trabzon) was Chrisanthos Philippidis from 1903 - 1921. So who on earth this Droteos is, I honestly can't say, the name obviously is wrong. (that's what you get from turk-yunan sites does)

It is also quite interesting to note that the 'idea' of separtition and forming the Pontian-Armenian 'confederation' was signed in Junuary 20 1920 so the previous attrocities were literally uncalled for. They were literally preforming an ethnic cleansing as Talaat has admited towards Morgenthau....
So you see,  you didn't pay much attention to that I'm talking about events that began in 1914 and not later....

I would like to know how exactly did they find any kind of report of a prayer for forgiveness

But let's continue this by PM cause we're obviously way off topic..


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 15:01
What can i say?We are not interested in the Byzantine Empire.


I wonder if the western world would know 1/4 of what it knows today about ancient Hellenism, philosophy,history and the era in general had it not been for the Byzantines.

-------------
Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrënjët në gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 16:44
And the Arabs.

-------------
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 16:49
Guys,why are you pushing it?We simply are not so much interested.After all the Hellen members are not actually more than 10 here.There are many Hellens out there who really like to talk about the Byzantines.It is simple.

-------------
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 16:53
And the Arabs.


Much of what the Arabs took was from Constantinople itself.

Guys,why are you pushing it?We simply are not so much interested.After all the Hellen members are not actually more than 10 here.There are many Hellens out there who really like to talk about the Byzantines.It is simple.


Yea and I also know about the Neo-Byzantine types. But to not have interest in the empire that was one of the only glimmering lights of Europe during those days is rather harsh.

-------------
Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrënjët në gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 17:19

It is a real shame that the Byzantine empire is not more studied. Constantinople, along with Cordoba were like 2 bright shining stars of knowledge and civilization in Europe, during the so-called "Dark Ages". The Hellenized Roman empire (because that is what was really) constituted the bridge form antiquity to the renaissance and its contribution to civilization was enormous.

I think it is a psychological problem: people look at the Byzantine empire and compare it with the earlier Roman empire and usually only look at the map. They conclude that the Byzantines were but mere shadows of the Romans. But they don't take into account the changing realities of the world and the dissapearing gap in technology which existed between the Romans and the surrounding people, as opposed to Byzantium and its neighbors. It was a remarkable feat for the Byzantines to have survived and flourished for as long as they did, after being attacked by the Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Sassanids, Arabs, Turks, Crusaders, etc. 

Alternatively, they look at Classical Greece and its achievements and they conclude that the cultural and scientific achievements of Byzantium were lesser. But who knows what cultural treasures were lost in 1204 and 1453? And Byzantium had the great merit of preserving ideas, technologies and civilization overall, while the rest of Europe (except for Spain) was a mere shadow of what it had been in Roman times.

Also, let's not forget that its succesor state was the Ottoman empire, a state which was not very good at transmitting Byzantine ideas and culture to the rest of Europe because they were muslim. No offense to the Turks, what I mean is that Byzantium has a lesser place and prestige in Western historiography because Western Europeans were mistrustful of the Ottomans, and hence Byzantine culture and ideas never got the chance to diffuse into Western Europe through the Ottomans, and affect more western civilization. The Byzatine empire itself was Orthodox Christian and conflicts with Catholic Europe had greatly lessened this infusion of Byzantine culture into Europe even before the Ottomans.

Let me ask a question: suppose that the Roman empire and the Byzantine empire were separate entities and that some other people had produced those achievements that ancient Greece is so famous for. Would the Greeks be proud of their Byzantine heritage then? Any people should be proud to be the inheritors of such an important civilization. There are many people in the world who are immensely proud to have had a fleeting golden age for their country, while Byzantium still far outshone those countries at their peak. So why not embrace that heritage and be proud of it?

And finally, please don't turn this into another Greek vs Turk debate



-------------
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 18:00
Originally posted by THE TURK

I am proud of Byzantine Empire, Mehmed II. was proud of the Byzantine Empire as well.

No. Fatih was even ashamed of Byzanthine Empire, because it considered the empire as betraying its Roman origins, and being Hellenized. Fatih was proud of Roman heritage, not Byzanthine. One of his titles were "Kayser-i Rum", meaning "Roman Caesar".

BTW, I m also proud of Akkoyunu state...

Turkish Classical music is our culture. believe it or not. 

Believe it? Man, I dont live in Mars or follow Turkish newspaper to learn what Turks do. I am in Turkey, I live here, my family, my everything belongs to Anatolia. And as everyone can see, there was an obvious differing of Turks (Anatolia- Sharq- Taþra) and Istanbul (Konstantiniye). Ottomans called Turks as "Etrak-i bi-idrak". I guess you can figure out what it means.

We, anatolians were always the real Turks. Istanbul was cuarantined from Anatolia, it was in a different continent, from a different civilization and culture. You may have been listening Turkish classical music, having fish and wine since 2000 years in Konstantiniye, but we havent. Everyone in Turkey knows that the real voice of the Anatolian was "aþýk"s and "eren"s, not "efendi"s or tenors.

We are the sons of anatolians... So We are the sons of the architect of Hagia Sophia. We are the sons of the architect of Suleymaniye mosque.

If we are the sons of anatolians, we arent the sons of Byzanthines. You may be a son of Hagia Sophia or a Byzanthine saint but we are the sons of erens of Khorasan. But yeah, we are the sons of maybe not architects of, but builders of Suleymaniye mosque. Isnt the "maharet" with "boyaci"?

Greeks eat bureki and dolmaki, they drink tsorbas, raki and become tszakirkeyf, they listen baglamas, they say "aman!", they say "ai siktir" when became angry, and they live on old Ottoman lands. Does that make them the inheritors of Ottoman heritage?

All of those foods are byzantine origin.

What? From Turks of Gagavuzia to Altaysk, they have burek. Baglama is an Ottomanicized version of the national insturements of Central Asians, "kopuz". We have tones of other examples that are adopted into Greek life from Turkish origins, and the verse of course. But it turns neither Greeks into Ottomans, nor Turks into Byzanthines...



-------------


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 00:34

Oguzoglu, your post is typically kemalist defense. Including Byzantine culture, all of anatolian cultures are turkifized in Turkey. But I honestly say that turkish foods are byzantine foods. Turkish music is actually byzantine music. Turkish culture is part of byzantine heritage.

we should discuss this argument in turktarihi.net forum.



-------------


Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 00:36

BTW : Ottomans called Turks as "Etrak-i bi-idrak".

Etrak-i bi-idrak: Stupid turks.



-------------


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 00:46

Originally posted by Spartakus

Guys,why are you pushing it?We simply are not so much interested.After all the Hellen members are not actually more than 10 here.There are many Hellens out there who really like to talk about the Byzantines.It is simple.

EXACTLY.  This thread has degenerated into arrogant Turkish squabbling.  How can you guys claim so much of Byzantium and its heritage when any possible cultural mixing didn't occur on a large scale until after the conquest of 1453?  

Yes you personally might have grown up with modern Greeks and their culture, but the Byzantine Empire was around long before the Turks even burst forth from central Asia.

I guess I just don't understand your line of thinking.



-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 00:56
Let's get back on track with the original topic, about Byzantium and Modern Greece.

-------------


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 05:44

The interest in the Byzantine Empire,is not a matter of pride.As i've said,it's a matter of personnal interest,nothing more.Harsh?I do not think so.It's personnal taste!You cannot possibly say it's harsh since in here are only 10 from 10.000.000!



-------------
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 06:36

This is a really intersting topic and I'd like to make my first contribution to "All Empires" here.

In the effort to bring this topic back on track, I will contribute a couple of reasons I've thought about the original question.>

I believe that the reason behind the Greeks not being so enthusiastic about their Byzantine heritage is

a)deceiving

b)has to do mostly with political choices made right after the establishment of the modern Greek state.

Explaining:

a) Actually, thanks to Orthodox religion mostly, most Greeks identify with Byzantion and not with the ancient Greeks. The two-headed eagle, the legends (such as “the petrified king”) the patriarch, the tradition – everything reminds of Byzantion but not of classical or post-classical Greece. Most Greeks feel like Byzantion is a part of Greek history and that is enforced by the state too, seing that Byzantine history is taught as part of the Greek history anyway.

b) The Greek revolution (and, right after that, the newly formed Greek state) had to gain the respect and recognition of the “West” to have even a small chance of surviving and thriving in a turbulent, constantly changing world. In the 19th century “the West” either despised the medieval Greek empire or (more often) didn’t know much about it. On the contrary, classical Greece had already been recognized as the starting point of the “western culture” and the bloom of the classical studies that culminated in the 19th century shows just that. So, the spiritual leadership of the newly freed Greeks sought a better model than the half-barbaric medieval subjects of the oppressive, widely unknown and definitely not thought after as something of any interest*, Byzantion. And they found it in their distant ancestors, those that established the idea of “the West”, those that thought of (and implemented) Democracy, those that laid the foundations of science, abstract thought and many other things. Wise choice, if you ask me. But they had a hell of a time trying to pass this choice among the populace – even a few decades ago you’d whitness people in villages talking a lot about Byzantion (something even visible in the name the Greeks mostly used during the centuries under Ottoman rule to refer to themselves: Romioi) and very little about Aristotle, or Alexandros, or Themistokles, or Plato.

*Don’t forget those are the times when Gibbons would consider Byzantium as a part of the “fall” of the Roman empire, a state in constant decline, of little more value than the barbaric Germanics who took over the Western part of the Empire… and that view wouldn’t change for the next 100 years either>>

 



Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 07:04
Well,that had to do with the past.Modern Hellens,can learn anything they wish about the Empire,without being dependent by the  Hellenic educational system and all of this due to the fact that Hellas is a democratic and free state.In Modern Hellas people have access to any historic period they want.The shelves on bookstores are full with educational material.For this reason,it's only a matter of personnal taste.Nothing more complicated than that.

-------------
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 08:45

It might be "a matter of taste" for the resident Greeks of this board, but there are 11 mi. Greeks (20+ if we count in the 'diaspora') and they are hardly represented by this rather small sample. I was trying to rationalize the general consencous.



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 09:34
Alkiviades

Well the topic was about why we, the members of AE, aren't into the topics related to the Byzantine empire. Of course, we, by no means represent the general beliefs of the entire Hellinic population, neither in Hellas nor the diaspora.


-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 04:06

Hi Phalanx

Thanks for clearing this up, I thought it was more of a general notion, than just the Greeks of AE. But even you (we) have aquired our personal taste somehow... and the fact that everything "official" speaks about the glory of our distant ancestors, while keeping rather quiet of the "Romioi" is a factor in that direction.

 



Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 06:24

Never pay too much attention at "official" things.



-------------
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)



Print Page | Close Window