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Surviving Pahlavi Dialect: Awramani

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
Moderators: gcle2003, King John
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=4960
Printed Date: 24-Jul-2014 at 13:20


Topic: Surviving Pahlavi Dialect: Awramani
Posted By: Zagros
Subject: Surviving Pahlavi Dialect: Awramani
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:02

This Middle Iranian Language still survives among Awramani Kurds deep in the mountains of Kermanshah in the city of Pahveh, near the Iraqi border.  Awramani Kurds also inhabit the bordering region in Iraq.

I have been to Paveh in the winter, it is very beautiful, on the peak of one of the nearby mountains lie the ruins of one of the best preserved Zaroastrian temples in Iran, it was inaccessible due to the snowy terrain and would have taken several hours to reach regardless.

Iranologists should take a deep interest in this area as it will provide much more information about the Pahlavi language, a derivative of Median.



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Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:03


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Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:51
Yeah, Kurds have many different dialects.

By the way Zagros: What is Pahlavi?


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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou


Posted By: morticia
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 14:07
If memory serves me correctly, Pahlavi was the family name of the last Shah of Iran (Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi), who went into exile with his family after the Ayatollah Komeini took control of Iran. I believe the period of time that the Pahlavis had control of Iran was called the Pahlavi Era. Is that correct Zagros?


Morty



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 14:14

No, Pahlavi is the pretentious name Reza Shah gave himself after the Pahlavi language of the Parthians/Sassanids, a middle Iranian tongue. 



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Posted By: Shahanshah
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 16:21

Zagros, if you dont mind me asking, are you a kurd?

pahlavi is a middle persian language right?

anyway, is it possible that kurds were once persians/medians only now they are arabized?

I think kurds are more arabized than persians, because I was watching a kurdish program on TV, at first I thought it was arabic, because they spoke like arabs. but then they showed the kurdistan flag. then i started paying attention more to what they were saying, then i could understand something which were similar to farsi.



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King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 16:47

That is nonsense.

I am from Kermanshah and I have both Kurdish and Persian blood.

The Kurdish languages are less afflicted with Arabic.  You should also realise that most Kurdish TV channels broadcast in Arabic and Assyrian (sounds like Arabic) too.  Some Iraqi Kurds speak their language with an Arabic accent, often gutteralising the "H" sound.

Kurdish dialects are far closer Middle Iranian languages than Modern Persian and that is why this Middle Iranian language (pure) survives among Kurds.

Modern Kurds are descended from many peoples, including Median, Persian, Hurrian and Armenian. 



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Posted By: Shahanshah
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 17:11

Originally posted by Zagros

That is nonsense.

what? what did I say?

The Kurdish languages are less afflicted with Arabic.  You should also realise that most Kurdish TV channels broadcast in Arabic and Assyrian (sounds like Arabic) too.  Some Iraqi Kurds speak their language with an Arabic accent, often gutteralising the "H" sound.

Kurdish dialects are far closer Middle Iranian languages than Modern Persian and that is why this Middle Iranian language (pure) survives among Kurds.

Modern Kurds are descended from many peoples, including Median, Persian, Hurrian and Armenian. 

no no , as i said when i started paying attention it was kurdish. It was probably an Iraqi kurdish program.

is it really pure? it can't possibly be.

modern persians are descendent of elamites, medians, pars, armenian and alll other peoples, there is no purity in our race. so whats your point? kurds are hurrians in origin?



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King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 17:33

It is nonsense that they are more Arabized. Considering that "Arabised" can only be used in a linguistic context.

I said pure in terms of language, that is it [Awrimani] is a purer form of Iranian language than Persian.



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Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 01:01
The closest language to the pahlavi language is Sangesari, which is nowhere near Kurdestan, Sangesaries still celebrate the tiregan.


Posted By: farohar
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 05:02

How about Naini? Isn't that a relatively close descendent of Old Persian? My father's Naini and it doesn't sound very much like Modern Iranian

There's a project currently underway by these researchers from the US to preserve Dari, from Yazd and I think Kerman, but more concentrated on Yazd, they're going to document vocab., grammar, etc and hopefully publish it

Arash 



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Humata, Hukta, Huvarashta
Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 06:21
Do you guys have any information on the mentioned languages?

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 06:36
Originally posted by Aydin

The closest language to the pahlavi language is Sangesari, which is nowhere near Kurdestan, Sangesaries still celebrate the tiregan.

Awramani isn't just close to Pahlavi, it IS a Pahlavi dialect.

I found this on Sangesari.

The Sangesari language

 

Group http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/iran.html - Iranian (with http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/avestan.html - Avestan , http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/parthian.html - Parthian etc.), Northwest Iranian (with http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/baluchi.html - Baluchi , http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/kurdish.html - Kurdish etc.)
Geography & History It is sometimes rather hard to identify whether this or that speech is a separate language or a dialect of a larger linguistic community. This is the case with Sangesari, spoken in the town of Sangesar in northern Iran and in several surrounding villages. Though Sangesari has traditionally been included in a group of dialects together with Surhei, Lasgerdi, Biyabunaki, Aftari, their speakers cannot understand each other. This gives grounds to claim that Sangesari is an independent Northwest Iranian language.
Writing No writing, people write in Persian
Close Contacts Persian, minor Iranian languages and dialects of the region
Picture  
More info
  • http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/links1.html#ira - Iranian Links

http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/sangesari.html - http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/sangesari.html

 



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 08:43
As I said http://www.allempires.com/forum/get_topic.asp?FID=10&TID=169&DIR=P - here , Sangesari is a Parthian language, it is interesting that the distance between Sangesar and Shahmirzad is less than 5 km but people of these small towns speak with two completely different languages (not dialects), http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=srz - Shahmirzadi is one of three Caspian languages, two other ones are Gilaki and Mazandarani.

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 08:57

That is indeed interesting and extraordinary, so Awramani and Sangesari must be pretty close to each other considering both are Pahlavi dialects, I wish a detailed study, by Iranians in Iran, was conducted on such languages. 

Zaza (Dimli) is very close to Awramani too, both are Gorani languages.

I know that the Middle Persian language replaced Pahlavi as the official language in Iran when the Sassanids took power, are there any dialects of Middle Persian still surviving?

I think you should go on one of your famous trips, this time to Kermanshah and visit Pahveh and other historical sites, Cyrus.



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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 11:20

As far as I know Pahlavi is the language of Sassanis.

Claiming that Pahlavi is a Kurdish language means that Sassanis were Kurds.  Very radical indeed......

Do you think so?

 



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 12:32

No one is claiming that Pahlavi is Kurdish.

Kurds are an Iranic people, they are more rural than Persians and others, their language has been less affected by the change of time and this particular mentioned language (Awramani) is actually a dialect of Pahlavi.

(There are many Kurdish languages, only the Gorani group is Middle Iranian Pahlavi)

The Sassanians actually spoke Middle Persian which is different from Pahlavi. 

Just for your information, it is recorded that Ardashir (first Sassanid King) was found among Kurdish shepherds by Papak, the Satrap of Parsa (Persis).



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 14:19
Kermanshah is really one of the greatest places that I love to visit, there are many historical sites from various periods in this small province, for example as you know the famous relief and inscription of Sargon II is in Uraman!

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 14:44

Also don't forget Bisotoon (Behistun) - Taghe Bostan - Temple of Anahita at Kangavar.

At the foot of Mount Bisotun, on the sheer cliff, there is a 200m x 40m surface shaved from the cliff face, this was going to apparently be the site of a great relief which did not come to fruition - the local legend has it that it was made by Farhad as part of his work for Shirin the legend lives on in song among the locals.



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Posted By: Shahanshah
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 16:26
Originally posted by Zagros

information, it is recorded that Ardashir (first Sassanid King) was found among Kurdish shepherds by Papak, the Satrap of Parsa (Persis).

Thats just a silly tradition. thats not historically correct tho, it has never been proven. till then lets just leave at that. unless im really way of and it is proven .

anyway, because of that, some kurdish chauvisits think Ardeshir was a kurd. and think all sassanians were kurds. i will provide you with a link. later on.

its just a silly tradition, same with the story that cyrus was picked up by shepard blah blah blah.



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King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.


Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 01:39
sangesar is a little town in semnan, its one of the most ancient tribes, after the revolution they changed its name to mehdishahr.
the tiregan celebration is for the event of "arashe kamangir", his legend is very popular, i think im wrong about the legend part i think it really happened.

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We Will Prevail Because We Can



Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 03:33

There is also lasgardi in west of semnan they have their own language, which is different with sangsari and also in Semnan itself in until 30 years ago there was a dialect? or Language? which was differnt with persian (at least from grammar)

Aydin:
exactly Ahl-e- haq in kermanshah have the same tradiion , same celebration for the memory of Arash-e-kamangir(Arash the archer)



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 07:18

Here is the source to the "silly tradition" - Karnamak e Ardashir e Papakan

hapter I.
In the records of Ardashir, Founder of the Sassanian Kingdom, son of Papak, it is written as follows: That after the death of Alexander [the Great], inhabitant of Arum, there were in the territory of Iran two hundred and forty princes.

olophon.

Completed with gratification, pleasure, and joy.

May Ardashir, the King of kings, son of Papak, and Shapur, the King of kings, son of Ardashir, and Hormazd, the King of kings, son of Shapur, be immortal-souled!

May the immortal-souled Rustam, son of Mitro-avan, who has written this copy, be so, and more so!

Amen.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/sassanids/karnamak_ardeshir_papakan1.php - http://www.iranchamber.com/history/sassanids/karnamak_ardesh ir_papakan1.php



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 09:00

hapter I.
In the records of Ardashir, Founder of the Sassanian Kingdom, son of Papak, it is written as follows: That after the death of Alexander [the Great], inhabitant of Arum, there were in the territory of Iran two hundred and forty princes.

Pahvali:

Pad karnamag i Artaxshir i Papkan idun nibisht estad ke pas az marg i Alaksandar i Hromayig Iran Shahr dusad ud chihil kadag khwaday bud.

Modern Persian:

Dar karnameh-e Ardeshir-e Papakan idun neveshte ast ke pas az marg-e Eskandar-e Rumi dar Iran Shahr devist o chehel kadkhoda bud.

I think Pahlavi is very similar to Dari, "two hundred and forty" in Persian is "devist o chehel" but Afghans say "dusad o chihil"!



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Posted By: DFront21
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 15:04
My grandmother is from Khonsar, in Isfahan province. Their language is very distinct. Some of the Khonsaris claim that the language they speak is Pahlavi. 


Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 22:19
thanks for the info, i can undrestand it better than i can speak it, its an interesting language.


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We Will Prevail Because We Can



Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2005 at 22:20
A question: to what group belongs Awramani? North West Iranian or South West Iranian? If the second, then it makes it possible to be the remnant of Sassanid Pahlevi.
Also I doubt that Awramani is also spoken in Iraq.

According to the Kurdistan Cultural herritage institute: Awramani is just spoken in an isolated valley in Iran which remained Zoroastrian untill late and had a large numbers of Zoroastrian priests. As the Sassanid Pahlevi was a language of the priests their language is such.

This claim can only be true if the Awramani belongs to the South Western Iranian language, and shows great similarities with the Sassanid Pahlevi (which I honestly doubt)

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We Will Prevail Because We Can



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 07:33

Awramani is North West and it is part of the wider Gorani group which also exists in Iraq, it is not spoken only in a valley, (that info is nonsense), it is the language of Paveh city and it is also spoken in bordering regions of Iraq.  Unless they mean to call the area of Paveh a valley, but there are hundreds there and the Kurds inhabiting them speak Awaramani.

I have a feeling that Awramani is also spoken in Mahabad, I will check.

The Y.A. month name found in the Pahlavi parchment of Awraman (No.3), according to the reading of Cowley, Unvala, and Nyberg, shows that the use of these names, and most probably also of the calendar to which these months belong, goes back as far as the first century BC.11 On the other hand, the existence of two other old Iranian calendars is attested by the Behistun inscription, and proved by deduction from the Avestan texts.

http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/old_iranian_calendars1.php - http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/old_iranian_cale ndars1.php

Well, there was certainly an official Pahlavi language spoken in the area.

 



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 13:53
Aydin, another thing came to mind: the NW & SW branches weren't as separated from each other then as they are today, perhaps mere dialects of the same language, whereas today they are completely diff languages and it is natural for isolated areas to maintain the archaic characteristics of their language.

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Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 14:32

The name ''Awramani'' seems to be close to ''Armani'' (Armenian). Do you think they have anything to do with us Armenians?

The Armenian language has some words of Persian origin. A lot of them have become extinct and survive in Armenian. Numbers and words like hazar (1000), ashagerd (student), certain words related to the military, like spah, etc. are used in Armenian.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 14:59
Not to my knowledge, there are two theories for its origin, one is "Ahuramandi" (related to Zaroastrianism) and the other "Hurrian" (pre-Aryan inhabitants), I am inclined to say it is the former because it was an important pre-Islamic religious area and also converted to Islam much later than the surrounding areas.

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Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2005 at 16:12
Originally posted by Zagros

Awramani is North West and it is part of the wider Gorani group which also exists in Iraq, it is not spoken only in a valley, (that info is nonsense), it is the language of Paveh city and it is also spoken in bordering regions of Iraq.  Unless they mean to call the area of Paveh a valley, but there are hundreds there and the Kurds inhabiting them speak Awaramani.

I have a feeling that Awramani is also spoken in Mahabad, I will check.

The Y.A. month name found in the Pahlavi parchment of Awraman (No.3), according to the reading of Cowley, Unvala, and Nyberg, shows that the use of these names, and most probably also of the calendar to which these months belong, goes back as far as the first century BC.11 On the other hand, the existence of two other old Iranian calendars is attested by the Behistun inscription, and proved by deduction from the Avestan texts.

http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/old_iranian_calendars1.php - http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/old_iranian_cale ndars1.php

Well, there was certainly an official Pahlavi language spoken in the area.

 

 

In Mahabad they speak Mokri dialect of Sorani Kurdish.



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We Will Prevail Because We Can



Posted By: Shahanshah
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 03:52
Originally posted by Shahanshah

 some kurdish chauvisits think Ardeshir was a kurd. and think all sassanians were kurds. i will provide you with a link. later on.

okay here are the links, NOW read the labels for the coins in which he or she has given; "kurdish sasani coin"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738505/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738505/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738520/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738520/

similar coin is shown on this website and described as "kurdish"

http://groups.msn.com/kurdishamericanyouth/kurdistan.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=245 - http://groups.msn.com/kurdishamericanyouth/kurdistan.msnw?ac tion=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=245

Although I am aware that kurds back then probably used sassanid coins, but the figures on the coins are of sassanid kings, who were persians not kurds. Now I am not sure if these labels describe the kings as kurdish or do they just describe the coins in which were found in "Kurdistan" region and were probably used by kurds as well.



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King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 06:59
Originally posted by Shahanshah

Originally posted by Shahanshah

 some kurdish chauvisits think Ardeshir was a kurd. and think all sassanians were kurds. i will provide you with a link. later on.

okay here are the links, NOW read the labels for the coins in which he or she has given; "kurdish sasani coin"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738505/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738505/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738520/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/56241129@N00/22738520/

similar coin is shown on this website and described as "kurdish"

http://groups.msn.com/kurdishamericanyouth/kurdistan.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=245 - http://groups.msn.com/kurdishamericanyouth/kurdistan.msnw?ac tion=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=245

Although I am aware that kurds back then probably used sassanid coins, but the figures on the coins are of sassanid kings, who were persians not kurds. Now I am not sure if these labels describe the kings as kurdish or do they just describe the coins in which were found in "Kurdistan" region and were probably used by kurds as well.

My only point was that in the Karnamak (records) of Ardashir it says that he was found among Kurdish Shepherds, you said "it was a silly tradition" when it is a legend which also states he was a descendant of the Hakhamanesh.

And Kurds most certainly used the Sassanid coins of Eronshahr.

No more on this please, it is political and irrelevant to Middle Iranian languages.



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Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 12:48

Originally posted by Zagros

Aydin, another thing came to mind: the NW & SW branches weren't as separated from each other then as they are today, perhaps mere dialects of the same language, whereas today they are completely diff languages and it is natural for isolated areas to maintain the archaic characteristics of their language.

well true, but still Pahlavi of Sassanid is closest to Persian (especially to Baxtiari). It is defintely an ancestor of Persian (Farsi of Fars, baxtiari, Larestani, Lori, Kumzari, Boyerahmadi .....SW Iranian) languages, while the Parthian was a little bit different. Still in Armenian are preserved many Parthian Pahlavi words. They are recognizble by SW speakers but still sound a bit different.

But as you said it can be.

 



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We Will Prevail Because We Can



Posted By: Yekta
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2005 at 17:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

hapter I.
In the records of Ardashir, Founder of the Sassanian Kingdom, son of Papak, it is written as follows: That after the death of Alexander [the Great], inhabitant of Arum, there were in the territory of Iran two hundred and forty princes.

Pahvali:

Pad karnamag i Artaxshir i Papkan idun nibisht estad ke pas az marg i Alaksandar i Hromayig Iran Shahr dusad ud chihil kadag khwaday bud.

Modern Persian:

Dar karnameh-e Ardeshir-e Papakan idun neveshte ast ke pas az marg-e Eskandar-e Rumi dar Iran Shahr devist o chehel kadkhoda bud.

I think Pahlavi is very similar to Dari, "two hundred and forty" in Persian is "devist o chehel" but Afghans say "dusad o chihil"!

maybe Persians used to say dosad too, "dosad gofteh cho nim kerdÔr nist"


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 18:08
Zagros can you speak Hawrammi?Smile


Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 19:08
"I have a feeling that Awramani is also spoken in Mahabad, I will check."

Sorani is spoken in Mahabad.

You're maybe thinking of Halabja? They speak Hawrami there.

Although it's slowly being replaced by Sorani.


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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 06:54
Zagros do you know any Awramani words and their meanings?



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 08:14

Not really, aside from teh ones that are common to Persian and normal Kurdish dialects like gyan/jan, it is spoken in the high mountainous regions around Paveh and it isn't like the Kalhori, bashuri spoken in the Kermanshah plains.  It is practically incomprehensible to any other Iranic speaker without a lot of listening and learning which is not the case with other regional languages.  For example many Kurdish words are exactly the same as Persian except they have dropped consenants.  Cheshm = eye - Kurdish = chem/cha.  So after being taught some simple rules it is pretty easy to understand.

 


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