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Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles

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Topic: Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles
Posted By: Yiannis
Subject: Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 04:56
Let, discuss here all aspects of the Parthenon Marbles return plea.
 
Case could force Marbles' return
Elgin Marbles
The Marbles were taken from Athens by Lord Elgin in 1811
A court case over the return of art looted by the Nazis may set a legal precedent which sees Britain compelled to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece.

The British Museum is seeking to return four Old Master drawings stolen from a Jewish collector in the 1930s.

Attorney General Lord Goldsmith has asked the High Court to clarify whether the museum has a moral duty to return property obtained improperly.

The Elgin Marbles are the subject of an ongoing row between Britain and Greece.

The marbles, a series of statues and fragments, were removed from Athens' Parthenon in 1811 by Lord Elgin, and later sold to the British Museum.

Greece has consistently demanded them back, most recently for last Summer's Olympic Games.

Detail of Virgin and Child Adored by St Elizabeth and the Infant St John by Martin Johann Schmidt
Schmidt's Virgin and Child is among the drawings looted by the Nazis

British law prevents the British Museum from disposing of anything in its vast collection.

However, the museum is seeking permission to return the drawings to the heirs of Czech lawyer Dr Arthur Feldmann, under the terms of the Snowden principle.

The principle permits charities to give back items it would be wrong for them to keep.

If the court rules that Lord Goldsmith can give his permission for the works to be returned, it could pave the way for other claims like the Elgin Marbles.

"It would allow them to return any items in their collection if they thought there was a moral obligation to do so," said a spokesman for the Attorney General's office.

Nonetheless, the final decision over works leaving the country lies with Lord Goldsmith.

So far, he has reserved judgment on whether he will allow the Old Masters to be returned once the High Court has made its ruling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4580011.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4580011.stm

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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin



Replies:
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:07
They should!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I once did a book review on this so I will have to find the disk that has the report on it. My conclusion was they should be returned but I would not hold my breath. Let me see if I can find it and I will post it under this thread.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 19:53
Well, I have some things to say here.

Firstly, in my 10 years in London, I had the chance to visit the British Museum and, amongst others, see and smell the Parthenon marbles.
I was probably fortunate to have missed for a month the label next to the marbles, describing them and in the end stating that "the remainder of the Marbles collection, currently in Greece, have not yet been delivered to the British Museum" or something like that. I was told of this label much later, by a Japanese colleague who had seen it. Outraged? I surely was!

Secondly, I was unfortunate enough to have watched, in 1996, the interview of UK's Minister of Culture  (or was it the British Museum Curator - I can't remember anymore) by http://www.quizplayers.com/quizplayers/people/william_g_stewart.html - William G. Stewart , then presenting the TV programme "60 Minutes" and who is a well known philellen (friend of the Greeks) and a renowned activist for the return of the Marbles, and I heard statements like: "We have them here for over 200 years, so they are  now part of the British culture" and  when confronted with the question "But didn't the Greeks had them for more than 2000 years?" he replied "This is besides the point".
A bitter smile was drawn on my face for the remainder of the programme that rainy evening.

You can read the whole of W.G. Stewart's activities on the Marbles Issue following the link I have provided.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 08:28

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1494322,00.html?gusrc=rss - http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1494322,00 .html?gusrc=rss

Quote

Art dealer takes Greek statue back home

Maev Kennedy, arts and heritage correspondent
Saturday May 28, 2005
The Guardian

Still smiling after 2,600 years, one small Greek youth, probably trousered by a soldier 60 years ago, is going home to the island of Samos.

"He's in remarkable condition apart from his nose," said James Ede, a London art dealer who has established that the figure was stolen from the island's museum, probably during the second world war. "He got that biffing in antiquity, not in my care," he added anxiously.

The kouros, a type of ancient Greek image typically of splendidly muscled young men with long curly hair, is shorter than a teaspoon.

But it is worth around 30,000, as early Greek provincial sculpture is highly prized by collectors but rare on the market. Mr Ede bought it, with a quantity of other pieces, from the widow of a Greek collector based in Switzerland, and showed it to John Prag, of the Manchester Museum. He had seen it before: it was photographed by a German archaeological team in the 1920s, and reproduced in a 1942 book, proving that it came from the Samos museum.

Without the photograph, it would never have been traced. Victoria Solomonidis, cultural counsellor at the Greek embassy in London, said that in common with many other Greek museums, no complete record was possible on Samos of what was destroyed and what had gone missing, in the chaos of the aftermath of the war.

The statue was not listed on the Art Loss Register, the nearest thing to a comprehensive international database. The measurement given for the figure in the 1942 book was also wrong, robbing the youth of a precious 14 millimetres, and making it more difficult to identify.

Mr Ede, who has previously returned a stolen marble plaque, bitterly criticised the British government's decision on cost grounds not to produce an online register of missing art, promised when the law on illicit art was strengthened.

"I think it's a monstrous mistake on their part. If laws are going to be passed then the tools should be provided."

Mr Ede will take the statue back to the museum himself. The Greek government has offered a reward, but he has refused it. "I bought him as part of a large collection, and I've already done quite well out of it," he said.

A big Bravo to Mr Ede!!!



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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 17:46
2 birds with one ...statue, Mr. Ede, popularity and publicity.
Ah, he also returned us a statue...


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 17:48
"A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty".


Aeolus, I loved this!!!!


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 13:41
Last I heard the British Museum refused. I cannot recall the curators name but it sounded Scottish. I am sure if Greece took something that the Scottish were proud of like the Pictish symbol stones, the Scots would be screaming, "bring em back laddie!!!"

I mean Scotland also has been invaded so much that how do we really know they are the decendants of the ancient Picts, sarcasm.

This was the curators claim about the Greeks!!

I say, "England give them back!!"


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 13:23
Man,why we don't send some O.Y.Ks there with some professional robbers and steal them?Only in that way we can take them back and it will save us time.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 21:08
It would make a great fictional thriller-


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 11:42


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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 18:12
I watched a program on TV a couple of weeks ago, about an Egyptian mummy that was found, long-forgotten and covered with spiderwebs, in the attic of some tiny provincial museum near the Niagara Falls.
Somehow, I've forgotten why, somebody had the idea that this could be a rather important mummy and after years of research, tests and debates, archaelogists agreed that this mummy was nobody else than Rameses I.

That was the most exiting thing that ever happened to that little museum in the outbacks, and what did they do?
They gave it back to Egypt, quite voluntarily, and Rameses I went home to his people and lies no in state in the museum in Cairo!
Well done!
The British Museum should take a leaf out of their book and sent the blooming marbles back where they belong!

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Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2005 at 15:28
Hmmm... I guess for that matter, the Greeks should ask the Italian government for the return of the artworks taken in 1204.

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"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 05:52

Very interesting point Belisarius. You reaise a legitimate question but these artifacts do not belong to the same category as the Parthenon Marbles.

The Parthenon Marbles - or more precisely, the Parthenon Sculptures are not freestanding works of art but integral architectural members of one of the most magnificent and best-known monuments in the world: the Parthenon. It is the biggest building on the Acropolis of Athens and was designed and built by the architect Iktinos and the sculptor Pheidias in the 5th c. BC. It was erected to celebrate the victory of the Athenian Democracy that encouraged the creation and development of all the arts as well as of politics, philosophy, theatre and even science as we know them to day. So, the Parthenon is the celebration of the achievements of free, democratic people and for that reason it is an important symbol to the whole world.

That is why it is inconceivable that over half of its celebrated sculptural elements should be exhibited 2000 miles away from the rest and from the actual monument for which they were expressly designed and carved.

One needs to remember that Greece does intend to compensate the Brittish Museum, by making sure that it would always host Greek antiquities on loan for exhibitions. Greece would be willing to send rare and even newly discovered antiquities, which have never been seen outside Greece.



Since the British Committee renewed the campaign to return the Parthenon Marbles to Greece, opinion has grown in favour of our contention that all the displaced parts of this unique monument should be preserved where it is - in Athens. Below are a selection of supportive views:

Bill Clinton

"If it would be me, I would give them back immediately."

President Vladimir Putin

"The Greeks are trying to bring back what belongs not only to them but to all humanity. This shows that your efforts are to your [the Greeks] credit and we [the Russians] will support you in this."

Sean Connery

"The return of the [Parthenon] Marbles should be the goal of all the countries that will participate in the Olympic Games. So by the time the Games are here [Greece], they will be in their rightful place."

Christopher Price

"The only thing British about them is the fact that one of our ambassadors filched them."

Ken Livingstone (Mayor of London)

"I support the idea that the Elgin Marbles should return home once there is a proper place for them there."

Rt Hon. Neil Kinnock (Former leader of the Labour Party)

"The Parthenon without the Marbles is like a smile with a tooth missing."

Rt Hon. Michael Foot (Former leader of the Labour Party)

"The Parthenon Marbles are a serious matter to Greece... Our relations with democracy in Greece could be greatly improved if the Government could show the intelligence and magnamity to deal with that matter..."

Karl E. Meyer (New York Times)

"The Parthenon and its missing friezes are part of Greece's birthright, a defining symbol of Athens and its democracy."

Louis de Bernieres (Author of Captain Corelli's Mandolin)

Click
here to read Louis de Bernieres' article on the return of the Parthenon Marbles on The Times newspaper's website.


A number of other notable supporters have made their views known. These include (but are not limited to):

  • Prince Charles
  • Sir John Mortimer CBE, QC
  • Lord (Ted) Willis
  • C.M. Woodhouse DSO
  • Lord Ponsonby
  • Janet Suzman
  • Spike Milligan
  • Judi Dench
  • Vanessa Redgrave
  • Ian McKellen
  • Fiona Shaw
  • Joanna Lumley
  • Angela Lambert
  • Emma Thompson
  • Jonathan Dimbleby
  • Julie Christie

Sources:

http://www.parthenonuk.com/index.php - http://www.parthenonuk.com/index.php

http://www.uk.digiserve.com/mentor/marbles/ - http://www.uk.digiserve.com/mentor/marbles/

http://www.parthenon2004.com/ - http://www.parthenon2004.com/

http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/elgin.htm - http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/elgin.htm

and many more...

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 12:03

Originally posted by Komnenos Komnenos wrote:


The British Museum should take a leaf out of their book and sent the blooming marbles back where they belong!

Bravo to the U.S. for returning the mummy after it was identified!

..but speaking of the States, im stunned more Hollywood actors have not spoken on the marbles.  They give their opinion on everything and they think it matters.



Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 13:29
As much as I understand the Greek's grievance with the Parthenon marbles being in London, a museum, after all, wouldn't be worth much if it didn't have exhibits from all over the world. It's also far more practical to have loads of items stored in one place, than having them scattered across the world in all kinds of distant locations, in which case few would get to see them all, as they do now. Just imagine if Louvre were to start returning all their exhibits to their original locations, suddenly the museum wouldn't be that interesting anymore.

Seen from this somewhat pragmatic perspective, I fully understand the British Museum's position. Now for the angry replies, fire away.



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Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 14:01
Yes, perhaps the British Museum or the Louvre would not be so visitable, but then again, other sites, the original ones mostly, would increase their visitability. It is the issue of profit too, you know.
Furthermore, it would even increase security and safety, as not too many items would be amassed at the same place.
Angry replies? Well, with people interested in such a cultural issue, you will not have any, I assure you. Debate perhaps, but not malicious responses.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 14:30
Good points. Especially the one about profits, a larger museum could boost tourism, which Greece is quite dependent on.

There's a similar case with the statues from the Lindos acropolis on Rhodes, which now are to be found in Copenhagen as a result of a Danish archaelogical excavation some time ago, carried out with permission from the then Turkish regime.

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Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 03:15

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

  Just imagine if Louvre were to start returning all their exhibits to their original locations, suddenly the museum wouldn't be that interesting anymore.

True, but the Parthenon Sculptures are not stand-alone pieces (e.g. statues), they're integral parts of Parthenon's structure. Plus, even if the Greek state does not recognize Brittish ownership of the sculptures, it's willing to compensate the Brittish Museum with loans of Greek antiquities of equal value, so there's no case of the museum being stripped of exhibits. It has even offered to name the wing of the new Acropolis Museum (currently being built) as "Branch of the Brittish Museum".

See some of the links above for more info.



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 12:10

 I understand Greece's wish to have them back but does Greece not have things of value to other countries? im sure they must do somewhere, every country has statues, antiques etc from other nations and cultures.

 In this case I do sympathise and I think the offer of loaning out other antiquities is a fair as is the offer of a wing in the museum of the Acropolis. I wouldnt mind seeing the marbles returned but then im also not overly optimistic on it, I suppose im relatively neutral on the issue but if Britain does give them back whats to stop other countries wanting this that and the other back? Museums would be emptied by the claims from countries wanting things back and vice versa, many things in museums belong to the world and not the country of origin alone the fact they are not currently residing in the country of origin isnt the only issue here.

 



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 13:08

Originally posted by Heraclius Heraclius wrote:

but if Britain does give them back whats to stop other countries wanting this that and the other back? Museums would be emptied by the claims from countries wanting things back and vice versa, many things in museums belong to the world and not the country of origin alone the fact they are not currently residing in the country of origin isnt the only issue here.

Greece never supported the idea of artifacts returning to where they were found. However, the Parthenon Marbles, are not "artifacts" or statues but intergral parts of a structure/building which is now mutilated. they were sawn of the preface of Parthenon itself, they're not stand-alone pieces!

Greece has been asking for them since 1832, when we gained our independence. In my mind Great Britain, a nation with which we have shared so much in our history, seeing how strong this feeling is in Greece and how emotional we feel over the whole issue, should return them, even if the British Museum wasn't offered for so much in return, even if they feel that the right is on their side.

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 00:14
Imagine archaeologists from a foreign country coming to Great Britain centuries from now and excavate. They discover artifacts like the hands of Big Ben, blocks from Stonehenge, or fragments of the Tower of London's walls, priceless artifacts from Britain's history. These foreign archaeologists then take these artifacts back to their own country.

How would that make you feel? I would imagine this is what the Greeks feel about the Parthenon marbles.


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"It is easier to talk than to hold one's tongue."


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 02:02

 Theres nothing more special about this than any number of other things in museums around the world that countries want back this is one in countless numbers.

 Does Greece have anything that belonged to another country? Im pretty sure it does somewhere but I personally dont see them going out of their way to give them back.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 03:26

Excuse me, but have you actually read the previous posts? The issue is not that of artifacts belonging to a museum in a foreign country, that fact is acceptable by everyone. It's a museum's mission to promote knowledge, after all. However there're exceptions to this rule and here we reffer exactly to one of these exceptions, that has to do first with the nature of the antiquities in question (architectural parts of a whole) and secondly to the fact that they were unlawfully obtained (even if the Greek side does not want to make this a court case but a friendly settlement).

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 06:32
Indeed. These marbles were removed from where they stood for two millennia. They were not discovered, dug out or salvaged amongst debris. They were dismantled and unhinged from their original place and carried away as a present for a personal private collection.
This is the argument that the request for their return is based upon.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 13:29

 I wouldnt hold my breath on Greece getting them back, id be more happy they staying here, who wouldnt? they are an excellent addition to any museum.

 After 170 years of wanting them back, its not happened, I see no reason why that should be changed now in the minds of the decision makers, the same argument about their unlawful removal has been argued for 170 years didnt convince them then shouldnt really convince them now.

 However after much thought, since Britain and Greece have a strong relationship of mutual respect and friendship in the cause of that continuing friendship, I personally would support the idea of the return of the Elgin marbles assuming something significant could be arranged and agreed in compensation to the museum like what the Greeks have offered. Even though id prefer they stay here it is probably right that these marbles return to their homeland.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 04:36
Times-a-changing...

I suggest this compensation: Free coffee to all British tourists for one Olympiad.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 17:39

Originally posted by Menippos Menippos wrote:

Times-a-changing...

I suggest this compensation: Free coffee to all British tourists for one Olympiad.

.....in that case Marbles? what Marbles?



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 19:23
I had suspected that you had lost them, and now I am absolutely certain...

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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Aegipan
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 15:21
I think all museums must return the stolen artifacts that they have. If someone wants to learn about history of Greece, Egypt and of any other country he must take a trip there and not in London or Paris.


Posted By: Ironheart
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 17:05
Originally posted by Heraclius Heraclius wrote:

 I wouldnt hold my breath on Greece getting them back, id be more happy they staying here, who wouldnt? they are an excellent addition to any museum.

 After 170 years of wanting them back, its not happened, I see no reason why that should be changed now in the minds of the decision makers, the same argument about their unlawful removal has been argued for 170 years didnt convince them then shouldnt really convince them now.

 However after much thought, since Britain and Greece have a strong relationship of mutual respect and friendship in the cause of that continuing friendship, I personally would support the idea of the return of the Elgin marbles assuming something significant could be arranged and agreed in compensation to the museum like what the Greeks have offered. Even though id prefer they stay here it is probably right that these marbles return to their homeland.

I think the brits should return them.  I think they plundered enough of the world's antiquities and other resources for that matter.

Cherio ol chap!



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Pax Ottomanica


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 09:56
The same problem is with Mauseleum and Trojan treasures. It's better they return to Turkey one day...

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Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 21:32
Originally posted by Ironheart Ironheart wrote:

I think the brits should return them.  I think they plundered enough of the world's antiquities and other resources for that matter.

Cherio ol chap!

 America and oil anyone?



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 15:00
Originally posted by Menippos Menippos wrote:

Times-a-changing...

I suggest this compensation: Free coffee to all British tourists for one Olympiad.


you mean free tea


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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 10:39

Indirectly relevant:

Greece demands 'stolen artefacts'
Greece is renewing calls for the return of artefacts from Los Angeles' J Paul Getty Museum it claims were stolen, according to the Los Angeles Times.

The request follows the museum's agreement to return three antiquities to Italy that were allegedly stolen.

Former Getty curator Marion True has denied criminal charges of conspiracy to receive stolen goods and illegal receipt of archaeological artefacts

The four artefacts disputed by Greece date from about 400BC.

They include a gold funerary wreath, an inscribed tombstone and a marble torso, which were bought by the museum for $5.2m (2.9m) in 1993.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4374132.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4374132.stm

Also yesterday, London's mayor Mr. Livingston, reiterated his support for the return of the Parthenon Marbles, after his meeting with PASOK party leader Mr. Papandreou. "London Olympics 2012, would be an ideal date for such a move, which would further srengther the ties betwwen the two countries and its people."

 

 

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 18:24

I believe the Heritage Secretary during Margaret thatcher's time actually answered this question when asked and he replied. "We'll return the Elgin Marble's when the French return the Bayeux Tapestry"

Still it's an interesting question, the British Museum does have a lot of the world's treasures, often obtained by dubious means. One such collection is the finest collection of Samurai swords outside Japan..... it's illegal to export a sword from Japan, if you have an antique one and take it in, they won't let you take it out again............ however despite differences the Japanese and the British museum came to an arrangement and the collection spends half it's time in Japan now. Perhaps a sensible arrangement could be made with the Greek government.

It's also worth pointing a vastly superior to the Elgin Marbles is the Pergamon in Berlin and compared to the British Empire the Austro-Hungarians were practically robber barons and stripped Italy of most of it's Roman and Venician treasures all in Vienna now.

 



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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: wshall
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2005 at 13:03
I would think some sort of deal should be worked out, but as many have noted, I do not have any hope in that happening soon.


Posted By: Ellinas
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 06:37

The British museum is full of accecories from Greece, Egypt, Italy, India, China etc. etc. Most of them bringed to England at the age of their empire.  If they do the ''right thing'' and start returning, their museum is going to be empty.

In other words don't see the marbles coming back in the near future.



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 08:22

Some news on the Parthenon Sculptures:  A German University is about to return a part of a sculpture that is under its possession. British Museum will hopefully follow soon enough!

 

Pressure over Elgin Marbles as piece of the Parthenon goes back to Greece
By Hannah Cleaver in Berlin
(Filed: 11/01/2006)

Greece announced yesterday that a German university intended to return a piece of the Parthenon, increasing pressure on the British Museum to do the same with the Elgin marbles.

According to the Greek culture ministry, Heidelberg University was "disposed" to give back the heel of a male depicted in the frieze which originally adorned the Parthenon.

It said the assurance had been given to the Greek prime minister, Kostas Karamanlis, by the university's vice chancellor Angelos Haniotis, who is of Greek origin.

A ministry statement said the university's offer to hand back the heel was "judged as a measure of exceptional symbolic importance in so far as it is the first part of the Parthenon frieze returned to Greece".

The ministry added that the university considered the return of the artefact "a matter of duty towards humanity".

Much of the eastern frieze of the Parthenon, which stands on the Acropolis overlooking Athens, was removed by Lord Elgin in 1806, while Greece was dominated by the Ottoman empire. He later sold the marbles to the British Museum.

The Greek government has been demanding that Britain return them for more than two decades.

The Heidelberg heel comes from the north section of the Parthenon frieze, a 525-foot strip of marble slabs decorated in relief with figures from a religious procession.

Parts of the Parthenon sculptures are also held in the Louvre in Paris and in museums in the Vatican, Vienna, Munich, Copenhagen and Palermo.

The Parthenon temple on the Acropolis, dedicated to Athena, goddess of wisdom, was built between 447 and 432 BC.

Such is the sensitivity surrounding the topic that Heidelberg University refused to confirm or deny the report yesterday.

Mr Haniotis also declined to comment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/11/welgin11.xml - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01 /11/welgin11.xml



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 11:19

If Britain does return the marbles it would also be funny. I get the impression while Greeks have heard about them, they haven't actually seen them.

The Pergamon in Berlin is stunning, the marbles in the British museum aren't, to say the least.

You go into the museum and walk past the pretty amazing Sumerian, Assyrian and Persian stuff, and thensee the marbles, and beside what you've just seen you're just totally underwelmed. You think, all that fuss about a few badly damaged pretty run of the mill statues.  

I think if ever they are returned to Greece a lot of Greeks are in for a surprise and will wonder what all the fuss was about. 



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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 11:27

I know they're in a terrible state, I've seen the pictures. Some say that this is the result of their "maintenance" or "cleaning efforts" while in the Brutish Museum. But I also realize that they gather huge crowds and are the most visited exhibit along with the Egyptian sector. Is that correct Paul?

 

Btw, if they're so crappy indeed, then the BM should give our damn marbles back and spare the unnecessary fuzz. After all we're willing to replace them with, eeeehm, shinier artifacts



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 21:36

Having been the V&A museum where they don't actually have any real Roman stuff but have made perfect museum replica's of all the best stuff in Rome in pristine condition. I think we could shoukd swap the originals with Greece for a set of perfect unbroken replicas provided by the Greek taxpayer.

This is what all the fuss is about.

Elgin Marbles - British Museum

 

 

Pergamon - Berlin

 

Now go bother some krauts



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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Amedeo
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:18
.


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--Amedeo the Magna-Graecian
** Veritas, Justitia, Pulchritudo, Amoenitas **


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 21:55
Perhaps one rule can be formulated which should become international law: What is appropriated from another country  (whether for good or selfish reasons, and under any circumstance) should returned to the descending population of that country which claims its inheritance.

Curious  how retroactive would you make this law?


Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 15:41
Finders keepers.

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"We didnt land on Israel, Israel landed on us!!"--Palestinian X
http://www.antiwar.com - antiwar.com
http://www.crimesofwar.org - crimesofwar.org


Posted By: Cunctator
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 21:11

I think the Greek claim should be ignored. The Elgin marbles have been in Britain for almost 200 years and are now part of Britain's artistic heritage. Moreover, being in the British Museum they are more likely to be enjoyed by far more people than in any other museum.

I don't like all these claims being laid against art or artefacts in museums. A good portion of the Louvre's collection was looted by Napoleon -- should we destroy one of the greatest museum collections to return it to countries of origin? I think not.



Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:49
I feel really sad to see people supporting British Museum's (and British government's) refusal to return the Parthenon Marbles. (Yes they are the Parthenon Marbles and not Elgin merbles).
So they have been in Britain for 200 years, eh? So what?! They have been in Athens, in their rightful place for 2200 years! They were internal parts of one of the world's greatest cultural monuments, the Parthenon, for more than 2000 years, before they were removed and taken away.

At least it is encouraging to see many people from Britain and all over the world to support their return. This keeps the hope alive that they will come back soon.


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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 12:27
Quote If they do the ''right thing'' and start returning, their museum is going to be empty.


Actualy they could just fill it with the tons British stuff which is currently sitting in the cellars.
Thing is the British Museum folks are all about prestige, namely having a collection that has bits of everything to make it a museum to rival any other in the world in terms of scope. So despite being a supposed public institution, they have the mentality of a private collector. Which is the real reason why any changes will be slow and stubborn in coming.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Dampier
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 13:26
Well to give the rough British view;
1. Elgin bought the Marbles, private property.
2. By taking them out Elgin saved the Marbles (when he first went there a bunch of Janniserries were shooting them and they had been ignored for years)
3.Can Greece prove they can look after the Marbles as well as the BM? There was a recent case where the Nigerian Head of Museums (or somesuch) said things should not be returned because Nigeria could not look after them. Obviously Greece is not Nigeria but...
4. Do the Greeks have a right to them? (as they were bought). After all Britain cant send back everything we've taken and neither can any museum.
 
As for the prestige...well prestige pays. And such a mentality works well. I've worked at the Wallace collection and British artifacts lack the 'exotic' factor that brings people in. Not only that but its not a museum about Britain, its a museum about the world in Britain.


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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 21:19
Pathetic claims...
1. Bought them from whom? Ottomans? What gives ottomans the right to sell a, more than 2000 years old, Greek temple or part of it to an individual. Remember, Ottoman Turks were occupying Greece.
2. We thank Elgin very much to take the initiative to save the Parthenon marbles... Now that he made a profit out of it and the British Museum has also made big money out of it, it's about time to return them where they belong.
3. That goes beyond pathetic...
4. If by "right" you mean it in legal terms, see 1. In any case, the "legal" approach will get you nowhere, because no "International Law" exists for that matter. Common sense will tell you that their rightfull place is the Parthenon.

For the British Museum (and the British Government) my friend, it's all about money and prestige...


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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 05:52
Originally posted by Dampier Dampier wrote:

Well to give the rough British view;
1. Elgin bought the Marbles, private property.
2. By taking them out Elgin saved the Marbles (when he first went there a bunch of Janniserries were shooting them and they had been ignored for years)
3.Can Greece prove they can look after the Marbles as well as the BM? There was a recent case where the Nigerian Head of Museums (or somesuch) said things should not be returned because Nigeria could not look after them. Obviously Greece is not Nigeria but...
4. Do the Greeks have a right to them? (as they were bought). After all Britain cant send back everything we've taken and neither can any museum.
 
As for the prestige...well prestige pays. And such a mentality works well. I've worked at the Wallace collection and British artifacts lack the 'exotic' factor that brings people in. Not only that but its not a museum about Britain, its a museum about the world in Britain.
 
Ok, I can see that neoptolemos got pretty upset, LOL so I'll try to respond presenting arguments...
 
1. He didn't actually "bought" them. He got a firman (permit) from the Sultan to remove statues from Athens. He was the Brittish ambassador to the ottoman empire and the Sultan: a. didn't give a damn about some old statues in Greece b. wanted to keep Britain happy. But even this "permit" is disputted.
 
2. True, the Parthenon was grossly mistrated and that was the argument Elgin used to justify his actions. Obvioously that argument doesn't apply any more.
 
3. same as above, plus Greece is at the frontline of archaeological research. The new Acropolis Museums, designed by Bernard Tschumi, which will be ready soon is a state of the art one: http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/museum.htm - http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/museum.htm
 
4. Same as point #1. One more thing, the Parthenon marbles are not staues, they're integral parts of the building of Parthenon, from which they had to be saw off to be removed!  
 


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: GreekTragedy
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:04

.



Posted By: GreekTragedy
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:21
Well heres my Greek point of view, I dont see anything wrong with the british museum having Greek artifacts, i think its beautiful, the fact that other countries are interested in keeping artifacts from places like greece and egypt is a huge compliment. these cultures and histories were big on their own but got bigger when other people became interested in them, the good thing about museums is that you see things from other countries, and these countries got even bigger from museums. yes they were stolen but it has helped these cultures remain huge in history. not everyone gets a chance to go to greece to see it.so museums help a great deal to see pieces of history they dreamed about for a long time, Granted Greece has had alot of Tragedies hint the name, like Turks coming in and taking places Greeks made famous, but even if Greece got these items back, Greek culture is spread out further than modern Greece anyway, i know i have to go to other countries to see Greek history, so whats one more stop to Britian, ya it sucks not everything will be in Greece but one huge reason Greeks got huge is being all over the place, and yes these items are belonging to Greece and its Greek history not British, but you have to realize other people besides Greeks are interested in our history and thats a good thing, not every country can say that. museums are a good thing they keep history alive , its great for learning,  people can learn about your culture, and your culture gets bigger not being in your country, seeing it in a museum will make people want to go to that country as well. and i dont know about you but im not going to a museum and see some replica, whats the point.


Posted By: Kotsos
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 11:41
Certainly, a thievery of something sacred like that of Parthenon is bad.


Considering the damage done by the brittish maintance i think it would be better if we fully reconstruct the missing parts of the monument with marble from mt. Penteli, the same used by the ancients. Same quality and class, and then do some painting.


It would be better if the particular place and others is reconstructed (fully, with identical quality pieces). After that we can ask for compensations and let them have the damaged onesLOL




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nje faqe nje fare


Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 10:57

I believe every historical work,monument etc. shall be brought back to its original place.

Germans,English,French, all had stolen many artifacts during the imperial era from different countries and now exhibiting them in their own museums...
 
Turkey,Egypt and Greece are probably the most-suffering ones among those countries...


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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 10:37
cool


Posted By: Ellinas
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 08:35
If the "greek" goverment was really Greek, they would already make clear to the Brits that there would be no Olympic flame for the London Olympics before the marbles are back.
 
And let them make a fake flame of their own if they wanted to.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 11:07
Originally posted by Ellinas Ellinas wrote:

no Olympic flame for the London Olympics before the marbles are back. 
 
Or we could kidnap the queen, that should make the Brits return them Big smile
 
Ellinas, have you lost your marbles? (excuse the pun, it was too obvious) Embarrassed  
 
Do you think negotiations and friendly relations are possible to maintain with ultimatums or blackmail???
 
 
 
 


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 01:23
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

I believe the Heritage Secretary during Margaret thatcher's time actually answered this question when asked and he replied. "We'll return the Elgin Marble's when the French return the Bayeux Tapestry"

 
What are you talking about? Why do you think the tapestry is called the tapestry of Bayeux? Because the normans (Odo of Bayeux) ordered the tapestry, and is therefore property of the French. It is irrelevent whether the anglo-saxons made it. The English has no claim on this tapestry.
 
Tapestry of bayeux is definitely French heritage. It is irrelevent whether the conquered Anglo-saxons made it or no; it was the normans that ordered the Tapestry and should therefore remain in Normandy.


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Creativity is key


Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 01:27
Originally posted by Cunctator Cunctator wrote:

I don't like all these claims being laid against art or artefacts in museums. A good portion of the Louvre's collection was looted by Napoleon -- should we destroy one of the greatest museum collections to return it to countries of origin? I think not.

 
Who is we? It's not that anyone can force us to give all those looted treasures. What France conquered, belongs to France. It's not our fault those nations were too weak or not smart enough to hold on to their heritage.


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Creativity is key


Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 18:58
I'm not really sure about where i stand in this matter- it's just so difficult to decide, but one thing that i am sure about is that if we return these, it would raise the possability to for returning other pieces of Archeology which would start a huge re-organization of pieces. It is important, however that the Greeks have their heritage back. If it were one small temple statue that would be a little different but this is the entire Frieze of one of the largest and most magnificent temples in the Hellenistic world- it needs to be adressed carefully.

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"Don't raise your voice - we all know how lovely it is!"
Triano, in "Mosterella" by Plautus! Read it...now!


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 17:19
Originally posted by Yiannis Yiannis wrote:

Originally posted by Ellinas Ellinas wrote:

no Olympic flame for the London Olympics before the marbles are back. 
 
Or we could kidnap the queen, that should make the Brits return them Big smile
Ellinas, have you lost your marbles? (excuse the pun, it was too obvious) Embarrassed
Do you think negotiations and friendly relations are possible to maintain with ultimatums or blackmail??? 

No, Yiannis, YOU have lost your marbles...WinkTongueLOL
Knowing the modern Brits, if we'd kidnap the Queen of England, we would probably be asked to keep her...
And we already have Queen Dimitra Liani-Papandreou to take care of...LOL


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: craig.melson
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 16:14
No. The story and reaction of the Elgin marbles and other treasures has to be applied across Europe.   If the marbles are returned, all other treasures should also be.  Being in London, i like them there.  It reveals alot about our past, attitudes to foriegners in that time and is a valuable insight to the history of collecting. 

As for logistics, its a risk, but should be easy enough to transport them.  However thats not the point, its part of Britains heritage, a key part of the museum an appreciated artefact.


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history is bunk


Posted By: Jeru
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 17:09
Originally posted by craig.melson craig.melson wrote:

No.its part of Britains heritage, a key part of the museum an appreciated artefact.
I geuss British build the Parthenon,so it's your heritage.Clap


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 21:11
[[/QUOTE]
 
 What France conquered, belongs to France. It's not our fault those nations were too weak or not smart enough to hold on to their heritage.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes, dreams of empire die hard...maybe France should return to Algeria, then...


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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Gun Powder Ma
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 21:25
I prefer professional care for the pieces in the exile at London anytime over amateurish treatment at home in Greece. Countries should not only claim all things back, they should also have the financial and other means to take care of them properly which I doubt somehow in a country which finetuned its statistics to get into the Euro zone.

Besides, it can be argued that at the time there was even no Greek state.


Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 02:01
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma Gun Powder Ma wrote:

I prefer professional care for the pieces in the exile at London anytime over amateurish treatment at home in Greece. Countries should not only claim all things back, they should also have the financial and other means to take care of them properly which I doubt somehow in a country which finetuned its statistics to get into the Euro zone.

As Yiannis wrote in the previous page, replying to a post raising similar 'concerns' like yours:
"Greece is at the frontline of archaeological research. The new Acropolis Museums, designed by Bernard Tschumi, which will be ready soon is a state of the art one: http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/museum.htm - http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/museum.htm "

As for the Euro-zone thing, not only this is irrelevant with the discussion, but also you're not very well informed about the subject.


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Posted By: Gun Powder Ma
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 15:05
As badly informed as the EU was about Greece's finances? ;-)


Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 01:18
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma Gun Powder Ma wrote:

As badly informed as the EU was about Greece's finances? ;-)
If your information made you believe that Greece does not have "the financial and other means to take care of them properly", then you are more badly informed that eurostat.


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Posted By: Jeru
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 16:26
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma Gun Powder Ma wrote:

I prefer professional care for the pieces in the exile at London anytime over amateurish treatment at home in Greece. Countries should not only claim all things back, they should also have the financial and other means to take care of them properly which I doubt somehow in a country which finetuned its statistics to get into the Euro zone.

Besides, it can be argued that at the time there was even no Greek state.
 
Yes we all know how gentle the british empire was with the marbles,sawing them off.Not to mention of decades of false treatment by the London museum.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 02:11
The University of Heidelberg in Gemany has returned a piece of the Parthenon to the Greek government. It's only 3x5 inches big, but it's a start.
 
In exchange we want all the little pieces of the Berlin Wall back that Greek tourists chipped off in the 90s.


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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 02:35
Originally posted by Komnenos Komnenos wrote:

The University of Heidelberg in Gemany has returned a piece of the Parthenon to the Greek government. It's only 3x5 inches big, but it's a start.
 
In exchange we want all the little pieces of the Berlin Wall back that Greek tourists chipped off in the 90s.
You didn't tell us  how the Heidelberg found this piece of Parthenon Komnenos.
As about the pieces were chipped or bought from Germans?
 
http://www.berlin-wall.net/orderform.htm - http://www.berlin-wall.net/orderform.htm
http://cgi.ebay.com/TWO-REAL-PIECES-OF-THE-BERLIN-WALL_W0QQitemZ250024271496QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.com/TWO-REAL-PIECES-OF-THE-BERLIN-WALL_W0QQitemZ250024271496QQcmdZViewItem
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Berlin-Wall-3-pieces-of-the-infamous-Berlin-Wall-RARE_W0QQitemZ170023168209QQihZ007QQcategoryZ415QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.com/Berlin-Wall-3-pieces-of-the-infamous-Berlin-Wall-RARE_W0QQitemZ170023168209QQihZ007QQcategoryZ415QQcmdZViewItem
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma Gun Powder Ma wrote:

I prefer professional care for the pieces in the exile at London anytime over amateurish treatment at home in Greece. Countries should not only claim all things back, they should also have the financial and other means to take care of them properly which I doubt somehow in a country which finetuned its statistics to get into the Euro zone.

Besides, it can be argued that at the time there was even no Greek state.


Financial means to maintain the marbles? Well, we'll get them from the EU,of course! They are a European treasure after all!! By the way, do you know that Greece has the highest per capita number of archaeologists in the EU? Of course a lot of them work abroad but are still included in the statistics,a fact that raised questions about the validity of the information. Some argued that only Greek archaeologists who work in Greece should be counted. Anyway, point is, there's a lot of technical staff to take care of marbles.

Last time I checked, portions of  the Great Wall of China are disintegrating and there are preservation questions as to the policies of the Chinese goverment. This does not raise demands to remove the Wall abroad where it could be looked after better, does it?


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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 21:14
I believe the Parthenon Marbles are very secure and being out to good use in the British Museum. They provide a good source of information, education and awareness about the Ancient Greeks and their Parthenon, to the numerous tourists, school groups and historians who visit there each year. The British do not intend to steal Greece's History, but to preserve it in a safe environment.
On the Contrary, I do feel the Greeks have a right to the marbles too. The current remains of the Acropolis and Parthenon and probably sufficient as a tourist destination and archaealogical hotspot, but the return would add to the heritage.
 
If the matter can be resolved through a deal involving the British Museum holding on to only certain - less neccessary - pieces/marbles and everything else be sent back to Greece, then I would be happy with that, but not completely content.
 
A good idea would be an identical reconstruction in the British Museum, therefore it can still provide the same educational and historical purpose, while all the pieces are returned to the Parthenon. This is ethically and historically fair in my opinion.


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Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:20
OK then, let us slip a couple passed your goalie in the 2008 Euro and we'll call it even, eh?Smile

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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 06:13
Swede gives back Acropolis marble
 
 
A retired Swedish gym teacher is the toast of Greece after returning a piece of sculpted marble taken from the Acropolis more than a century ago.
 
Birgit Wiger-Angner's family held the marble for 110 years, but she decided to return it to Athens after hearing about Greece's Elgin marbles campaign
 
Birgit Wiger-Angner stands behind a sculpted marble fragment from the Acropolis that she returned to Greece
The marble was picked up by Wiger-Angner's great-uncle in 1896
 
 
more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6138214.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6138214.stm


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: The_Jackal_God
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 13:37
Museums seem like the last vestiges of imperialism. What is wrong with a country holding onto its own treasures of its cultural heritage? so far maintenance, economics, and education have been mentioned, and the only valid one imo is maintanence. Why do the Greeks have to pay the price of education for people visiting a british museum to learn about (ancient) Greece? internet and photography are amazing alternatives to holding onto Greek relics; besides, how many people go to museums to learn? only smart people go, and well, they're already smart. Economics? boo hoo imperialist museums won't continue to make money off their pillaging. If this is a valid reason, i say let the Scandinavians return to their long boats. Maintanence, valid, but as the above shows, the Greeks are well capable of it. National GDP isn't the only factor in maintanence capability. I've heard the Vatican has the best work in restoration (of art).

but if Britain doesn't give them back, how bout doling out pieces of Stonehenge then. LOL that those marbles are part of British heritage. So was slavery and racism and imperialism, but you let go of those. Let go of this too, as the American example shows, it'll boost your PR. Shoot, America (as the US) has virtually no history to boast, just of those whom we displaced, and yet we returned the mummy. Is the British museum skeptical that British culture has enough of its own worth seeing, that it needs to hold on to plunder from others?

a more complex question, along these lines: i heard that marble plundered by the Latins in 1204-5 from Constantinople was used in building in Rome, specifically in the Vatican - should those be returned, and should they be forwarded to a new address (seeing as Constantinople is not ... well you know) or should the Vatican designate a Greek name or use to parts of the buildings using the pillaged marble?


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 03:50
Greek pupils demand Elgin Marbles
Greek%20children%20demonstrating%20at%20the%20Acropolis%20
Organisers plan similar protests in London and elsewhere
Greek schoolchildren have demonstrated at the Acropolis in Athens to demand that the UK returns marble sculptures taken by Lord Elgin 200 years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6313953.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6313953.stm

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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: GENERAL PARMENION
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 06:57
As a Greek , i definately agree on Elgin Marlbles being returned back.But i think that is the least we should be woried about.There are so many archeological treasures all around Greece that we don't give a sh*t about  , victims of time passing by , thousands of others that are not excavated and the ones that are , where propably much better being hiden where they where.
Many archeological treasures where being looted , why mention just theese marlbles.I find it rediculus wanting back the Elgin Marbles back when we can't even take care of the archeological treasures we have here.


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"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)



Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:25
People you forget that some of those marbles were chopped out of the building. They were not found 6 feet under the ground. We try to restore Parthenon and this will probably take up to 50 years. A part of this restoration process is to put the marbles back in the "aetoma" (decorative part of the roof).

The truth is that a lot of ancient artifacts are abandoned somewhere in Greece. The truth is also that no museum can store all those artifacts. However, small communities build their own museums. Around my village lies one of the most rich areas in artifacts in macedonia. Every single village around has its own small museum excibiting them. The problem is rather local that general in Greece. Some districts take very well care of the artifacts while others don't.



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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 13:06
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

  A part of this restoration process is to put the marbles back in the "aetoma" (decorative part of the roof).
 
Actually not! The Parthenon Marbles will be stored in the new Acropolis Museum ( http://www.culture.gr/2/21/215/21502/e21513.html - http://www.culture.gr/2/21/215/21502/e21513.html ) which is opposite of the Akropolis, so the Marbles will be in sight of the Parthenon.
 
On the issue raised by Parmenion, I can only repeat what a friend of mine, who is an archaeologist, said when I asked him why he doesn't ask to go on expeditions in other countries. He said: "are you nuts? there's so much work in Greece that we can never be able to complete even the most pressing domestic requests. In most cases, we simply go, investigate and if the find is not of paramount importance, we simply re-bury it and mark the place to be excavated by the future generations. In the warehouses there's som much material already excavated but not analysed yet, that can support two generations of archaologists without any new excavations. So there's no time to work abroad and we need all the help we can get from foreign colleagues". He also said that because of their great experience, Greek archaeologists were praised abroad and are regularly requested to work in foreign expeditions, a request that most of them have to decline.


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Brasidas
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 21:20
One thing that everyone must keep in mind when it comes to the Marbles is, did Elgin have the right to take the Marbles? Whe asking this question the answer is NO! He only recieved permission to take molds of the sculptures on the Parthenon and other buildings and to collect whatever pieces were laying loose around the Acropolis nothing more and nothing less!
 
What he did was to CUT the structure in order to REMOVE them from it, thus causing irreparable damage to the structure itself.
 
What gets me about it is that the Brits claim that the Marbles would have been destroyed if Elgin had not removed them. To this I say B.S! All the other Marbles are still intact and in good condition. While the Marbles at the British Museum were damaged when steel wool was taken to them in the 1930's to remove "Dirt". That dirt later discovered was actually remnants of the paint that once covered all the sculptures!
 
So do the Greeks have a legal claim for the Marbles, yes, because they were ilegally taken without permission. 
 
 


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 17:46
Seems that some serious developments are underway on the Parthenon Marbles issue. For the first time since they were stolen the British museum is hinting that it may give them back, even in the form of a "loan".
From my part I don't really mind, as long as they're finally returned. Greece has always sought to resolve this in a friendly manner, even suggesting to donate to the British Museum a part of the new Acropolis museum, to house the Marbles as a branch of the British Museum in Greece. In such a case the BM will not loose face, at technically the marbles will still be in its possession.
 
 
BBC article below:
 
Talks due on Elgin Marbles return
Elgin%20Marbles
The sculptures could be loaned to a new museum in Athens
A lengthy dispute between Britain and Greece may move a step closer to a resolution when sides meet to discuss returning the Elgin Marbles to Athens.

Talks in two weeks' time will be the first serious negotiations after years of resistance by the British Museum.

 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6578661.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6578661.stm


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: human
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 07:48
I believe that the marbles should return to their home.
The Greek goverment can discuss to loan them to museums around the world.
Parthenon is a heritage to all humanity and should be shared all over the world and not only Greece.
 


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You Got to Lose to Know How to Win...


Posted By: New User
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 10:53
Of course the marbles should go back to Athens. It is where they come from, they will be sufficently looked after and protected. I do not see why they are not back there already.
 
I see the points of museums keeping their collections etc but in this case it seems a paltry point in comparison with the benefits of them being back at their source. It is not like there is nothing left to place them in context in Greece, it seems academically feeble to keep them seperated from their building by so many hundreds of miles.
 
As a brit who doesnt feel her country is the only one that can look after ancient remains I believe keeping them in London is no longer feasible, appropiate or good for scholarship on the subject.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 06:52
Originally posted by bylazora bylazora wrote:

  
...London is no longer appropriate for good scholarship?? 
 
Thinking of the irreparable damage that the Parthenon marbles suffered while in the British museum due to the careless handling, I'd say that the above statement is not far from the truth. The new Acropolis Museum is state of the art and Greek archaeologists are consider top of the notch, so nothing suggests the opposite.
 
Now regarding the rest of the crap that you post, regarding modern Greeks not being related to the ancient ones, I consider it only a sample of your immaturity. You only intention is to create a flame war, which will not be allowed. Consider this as a warning and be aware that you will not be tolerated if you continue down the same road..


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 08:44
Originally posted by Yiannis Yiannis wrote:

 
I'd say that the above statement is not far from the truth.
 
Comparing level of science in UK to that in Greece (or any other southeastern Europe country if you wish)  this statement is actually very far from truth.


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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:02
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Yiannis Yiannis wrote:

 
I'd say that the above statement is not far from the truth.
 
Comparing level of science in UK to that in Greece (or any other southeastern Europe country if you wish)  this statement is actually very far from truth.
 
What is wrong with you Anton? Can't you understand the whole quote where I'm saying that this is in relation to the mishandling of the Parthenon Marbles from their British Museum curators?
 
Do you really have to reply, if you have nothing of substance to say but to generalize out of proportion?
 
 


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:42
Nothing really, I just think that your statement about handling is biased. But I admit that I might be wrong though.

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Posted By: New User
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 14:42
 
Quote bylazora"...London is no longer appropriate for good scholarship??
 
You mean by putting the marbles in Athens, we are going to learn more about them? What a laugh! The marbles should stay exactly where they are. I should say that the Greek people, who that State represents, do not have a right to those marbles, simply because they now occupy a land once inhabitated by ancient Greeks. I can understand why they may want the marbles on aesthetic grounds, or out of scientific interest - but that is not their arguement at all. They are not the same people - and those marbles stand for something greater than - dare I say it - politics. They should be kept where they are - where everyone can study them as a monument to ancient Greece - and not modern Greek politics."
 
 
It not politics to place a historic piece in context with the building it came from, when the facilities are there to be used. I guess it depends on whether you think putting stuff in context is important or not. Wink


Posted By: Southerneighbr
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:18
Originally posted by New User New User wrote:

 
 
 
You mean by putting the marbles in Athens
 
 
 
 
 
 What is wrong with Athens?The Acropolis museum is doing just fine.I believe we can manage the marbles without a problem.
 Regarding ancient Greek ancestry of modern Greeks...Well i dont believe any nation in the Balkans today is a direct descendant of the ancients...We are all a mix...
  Today we are more than capable of managing the marbles.London must find another excuse.It is getting boring...
 
 


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:31
Has the museum opened to the public yet, despite NOT possessing the marbles? If so, have you been to it Southerneighbr? I'd quite like to hear/see what it's like...must be very modern.

EDIT: Excuse me, I left out a very vital word - "NOT". I apologise.


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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:35
The delicate process of transporting the exhibits and artifacts currently housed in a small museum atop the Acropolis in central Athens to a new state-of-the-art Acropolis Museum facing the celebrated hill's south side will begin in September 2007. 
The entire operation is expected to last until the end of the year, as the new Acropolis museum is scheduled to open in early 2008.


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Posted By: Southerneighbr
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:42
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

Has the museum opened to the public yet, despite possessing the marbles? If so, have you been to it Southerneighbr? I'd quite like to hear/see what it's like...must be very modern.
 
 
 No and no. It is believed to become a state-of-the-art museum when fully opens.At least that is what they tells us...


Posted By: Southerneighbr
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 17:03
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

Has the museum opened to the public yet, despite NOT possessing the marbles? If so, have you been to it Southerneighbr? I'd quite like to hear/see what it's like...must be very modern.

EDIT: Excuse me, I left out a very vital word - "NOT". I apologise.
 
 
 Its ok, i understood it was only a mistake.
 
 As i said,the new state-of-the art Acropolis museum is believed to become one of the most modern,IF NOT, the most modern museum in the world.
 
 Athens wants to shut up London once and for good.We have been trying to get the marbles back for almost 200 years.London's constant arguement was that Greece did not have the facilities to keep the marbles safe.
 
 Regarding our right to claim back the marbles,already the British public has sided with the Greek public on this matter.
 The marbles are a piece of our cultural heritage and an important integral part of a live monument in Athens.Either we are of the ancient Greek stock or not we are the continuers of the Ancient Greek culture today.Our right to the marbles is undisputable.
 
 After the creation of probably the most modern museum of the world, London will have to find another excuse....I guess now they cant complain about the smog in Athens....Probably this time they ll say something about the earthquakes we have in GreeceLOL


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:40
Originally posted by bylazora bylazora wrote:

Originally posted by New User New User wrote:

Of course the marbles should go back to Athens. It is where they come from, they will be sufficently looked after and protected. I do not see why they are not back there already.
 
I see the points of museums keeping their collections etc but in this case it seems a paltry point in comparison with the benefits of them being back at their source. It is not like there is nothing left to place them in context in Greece, it seems academically feeble to keep them seperated from their building by so many hundreds of miles.
 
As a brit who doesnt feel her country is the only one that can look after ancient remains I believe keeping them in London is no longer feasible, appropiate or good for scholarship on the subject.
 
...London is no longer appropriate for good scholarship??
 
You mean by putting the marbles in Athens, we are going to learn more about them? What a laugh! The marbles should stay exactly where they are. I should say that the Greek people, who that State represents, do not have a right to those marbles, simply because they now occupy a land once inhabitated by ancient Greeks. I can understand why they may want the marbles on aesthetic grounds, or out of scientific interest - but that is not their arguement at all. They are not the same people - and those marbles stand for something greater than - dare I say it - politics. They should be kept where they are - where everyone can study them as a monument to ancient Greece - and not modern Greek politics.
 
bylazora (capital of ancient Paeonia) 
 
 
Just for the record, my reply to this post was deleted by the mods because the only way I can or should reply to this is indeed too caustic (however rather smarmy, don't you think Yiannis?). I refuse to answer to such provocatory nonsense in a civilized way. And, for the record, if things like this are allowed to post, then the reply will certainly cause a flame war. Look for the cause, not the outcome.


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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: New User
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 21:07
did my post offend? Apologies if that was the case I just thought the should go back into context in Athens..Smile


Posted By: bylazora
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 02:34
Originally posted by New User New User wrote:

did my post offend? Apologies if that was the case I just thought the should go back into context in Athens..Smile


C'mon. The marbles do not need to go to Athens - they can be researched and studied perfectly well in London.

Secondly, they don't need to be in Athens to 'put them into context'! Their historical content and context is clear.

The Greek request (sic demand) for the marbles is a political statement. The marbles don't 'belong' to the Greek people - they belong to ancient history; the constant racial sub-text and cultural hierarchy modern Greeks put in such things should be enough to warn anyone to leave it where it is! The fact that they have a 'right' to the marbles based on historical grounds, should ring loud warning bells. We all know modern Greek were never ancient Greeks - and that nationalism in that country is absurdly spectacular.

I should add that if they were 'mishandled' - then that is a shame. It is not a reason to move them.

I say leave the marbles where they are.



Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 03:27
New User, thank you for your support; it's good to hear such things from British people Smile
(btw Constandinius' post was not directed at you)

Constandinius, you don't deserve to get a warning (or suspension?) for this bylaroza. However, should you feel the need to reply to him/her in an uncivilized way again, please also PM it to me, because I missed your previous reply Big%20smile


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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 04:04
Originally posted by bylazora bylazora wrote:

We all know modern Greek were never ancient Greeks - and that nationalism in that country is absurdly spectacular.
 
I believe I had warned you already about trolling and posting only to provoke other forum members into flame wars.
 
So this is now an official warning for you and the next step is your ban (permanent or not to be discussed).
 
Notice to other forum member: Please abstain from replying to his posts in this manner!


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Southerneighbr
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 07:44
Originally posted by Yiannis Yiannis wrote:

Originally posted by bylazora bylazora wrote:

We all know modern Greek were never ancient Greeks - and that nationalism in that country is absurdly spectacular.
 
I believe I had warned you already about trolling and posting only to provoke other forum members into flame wars.
 
So this is now an official warning for you and the next step is your ban (permanent or not to be discussed).
 
Notice to other forum member: Please abstain from replying to his posts in this manner!
 
 
  Yiannis, there is no reason to get defensive about our ancestry.I for one do not believe i come from the Ancient Greeks even though such stuff is  propagated in Greece as early as schooling.
  It would be very one-sided to absolutely believe that we are pure blooded descendants of the ancient Greeks.I feel very comfortable accepting that our nation is a mixture of Balkan populations.Like all Balkan nations for that matter.
 
 Remember that Greece's official policy on ancient Greece is that we have a ''cultural'' continuity and not a full-blooded relationship with the ancient Greeks.
 So let bylazora express his beliefs if that strengthens his argument the marbles to stay in London.
 
 But regardless of what our agglo-saxonic British friend might think it is common knowledge that the Acropolis museum will be the most modern museum in the world.
 So i am putting the debate on another bases.Why refuse bring back the marbles to a place which will obviously take care of the marbles much better that London did in the past or is currently doing?
 
 If bylazora's worries are based on Greece's past difficulty to take care of the marbles,what about now that we are building the best museum in the world?
 
 Will London invoke Greece's warm climate or seismicity that might allegedly harm the marbles,in order to make an excuse this time????
 
 
I believe Athens has succesfully shut up London on the marbles by creating a state-of-the art museum which will be the best in the world.....So what now London???



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