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Myths about the Americas

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the Americas
Forum Description: The Americas: History from pre-Colombian times to the present
Moderators: Mixcoatl, edgewaters
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25957
Printed Date: 12-Dec-2018 at 00:49
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Topic: Myths about the Americas
Posted By: pinguin
Subject: Myths about the Americas
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 23:40
Ever wonder if the Lost Tribe of Israel came to the New World? Did "El dorado" exist? Did Ponce de Leon found the "fountaint of Youth"? It is true that Nazis made a military base in Patagonia and later enter to the holed earth through the hole in the Antartida? Do Yetis live in the U.S. forests? What about the pirate treasures of the Caribbean?  
 
In short, do you want to know more about those amazing myths that cover all over the Americas?
 
Please, let's us discuss them in this thread.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)



Replies:
Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 15:29
El-dorado could be many things. I could be a myth told to the Spaniards to put them off track, I could be the Inka capital, as it is said to have had gold everywhere, until it was removed to pay for the Inka.
 
There are some un-found treasures, I believe, as some of them have been found. Although it has been sunken ships mostly, some have also been found on land.
 
What ever happened to the find on the Crusoe island, by the way? It was assumed to be enormous, but the finders weren't allowed to dig it op, or something? Was there a treasure at all? It was all over the news, so it seems strange that nothing seems to have happened since. Maybe it was some kind of hoax?


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Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ - http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/ - http://www.raipon.org/


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 18:41
The treasure of Robinson Crusoe Island? Well, there aren't news so far. Not good or bad news at all

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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 11:10
Johnny Appleseed? Bigfoot?

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 12:23

Yeap. But wasn't Johnny Appleseed a real character?



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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 14:00
Yeap, He was. And an amazing character, indeed:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_appleseed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_appleseed
 
Johnny Appleseed, born John Chapman (September 26, 1774 – February 18, 1845), was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, mainly Ohio. He became an American legend while still alive, largely because of his kind and generous ways, his great leadership in conservation, and the symbolic importance of apples.
 
From Disney's
 
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 06:32

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Did "El dorado" exist?  

This one, it's supposed, comes from the kingdom of the Muisca. That whole region (Colombia) was filled with Chibcha-speaking minor kingdoms, all of whom were amazing goldsmiths and valued gold highly, for religious/magical reasons. The Muisca used to have a special ritual where their king was covered in gold dust, loaded with gold artifacts, and sent out in the middle of a sacred lake on a raft to make offerings to the gods of all the gold artifacts (by tossing them in the lake). Apparently these ceremonies involved alot of gold. It's thought that the legend originally refers to the Muisca and this particular practice. The Spaniards couldn't find it because they didn't keep their gold, they chucked it into the lake, and its not recoverable by any normal means (even today they still haven't been able to drain the lake to get at it).



Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 14:46
Ok, that could be an explanation. I believe it is more reasonable to assume that the locals just told of a big city of gold, just in order to lead the Spaniards astray, away from the real cities of importance. But there are many possibilities.

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Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ - http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/ - http://www.raipon.org/


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 15:22

Yes, I saw somewhere that explanation about "El Dorado". It is curious, though, that the region of Colombia you mention is very famous because theirs precolumbian golden pieces, that are preserved by the thousand in museums, guarded all the day long. I have seen such pieces and I have found them superb.

 

 



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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Yeap, He was. And an amazing character, indeed:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_appleseed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_appleseed
 
Johnny Appleseed, born John Chapman (September 26, 1774 – February 18, 1845), was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, mainly Ohio. He became an American legend while still alive, largely because of his kind and generous ways, his great leadership in conservation, and the symbolic importance of apples.
 
I didn't know that. Thanks.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 16:10
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Yeap, He was. And an amazing character, indeed:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_appleseed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_appleseed
 
Johnny Appleseed, born John Chapman (September 26, 1774 – February 18, 1845), was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, mainly Ohio. He became an American legend while still alive, largely because of his kind and generous ways, his great leadership in conservation, and the symbolic importance of apples.
 
I didn't know that. Thanks.
 
No one "introduced" Apples, They were here from the start, a native plant.  What Chapman did was establish a program of Hybridization and sold trees that were more suitable for specific regions and growing zones.
In reality, the "Johnny Appleseed" story is a myth, an invention.
 
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 16:18
apples native to the Americas? That's new to me and I got curious.
Yes, some plants of the Old World there were also present in the Americas (cotton for instance), but most didn't. It called my attention, for instance, that grape parrs existed in North America before Columbus, which is weird to me, because South America didn' have grapes. Now, you tell me that apples are also pre-columbian in North America, while in here didn't exist either! Just show me some evidence... please!
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 17:37
Ping,  It's interesting that in every article I have dug up the Apple is always referenced in terms of Europe or the old world.  They are speaking of the "modern" apple, and in almost every case dismiss the native species as "crabapples" or some other derogatory term.
 
In one article, from a respected "expert" the Crabapple is described as being inedible.  Tell that to my grandmother who, had several crabapple trees collected from the wild, from which she made the most amazing preserves.
 
This is one time I'll agree with you on the Eurocentrist thing.
 
From a doctoral research paper, Cornell U.
 
 
Before foreign apples were introduced, wild species were growing throughout much of eastern and western North America. Although less familiar than grocery store apples, these native American species persist in the wild.
       
       Plant taxonomists may argue over the number of apples native to North America, but most agree that there are four major species. Three eastern species are very similar to one another and are quite distinct from the single western species. Based on similarities in morphology, the western species is believed to be most closely related to apples native to China. In contrast, the three eastern species probably have affinities with apples from the Middle East and are thought to have split off early in the evolution of the genus Malus.
 
If I want the rest of it I have to join the site.Big%20smile Ain't happening.
 
 
My main texts and reference books on plant taxonomy are back in my classroom so I'm doing this by memory. Tongue Two of the four species native to NA are, P. Malus Coronaria and P. Malus Angustifolia.
Wish I had more, but that should be enough to convince you.
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 18:21
You bet! That's a great information. I was really surprise of it, though. As I told you we don't have here native apples, so I wasn't aware they could exist in the U.S. That's quite interesting to know.
Only recently I become aware of American grapes, wild rice, and now American apples. The Americas are an endless series of surprises.
Just a surprise for you know, did you know strawberries main genetical origin is chilean? Yeap, the appearence and flaworing of that plant is also from the Americas, and this time from my country.
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: Tore The Dog
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 21:24
How is it nowdays whit LLANGANATI ? 750 tonnes of Inca Gold.
 
And Orellanas *Amazones* in Amazonriver ,  Virgenes del Sol or Luna or booth ?


Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 21:41
750,000 pounds, it says in some sources - so it's "only" half. Some internet sources do say 750 tons, so I wonder what the original source says.  Still an unfathomable amount of gold in any case.

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Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ - http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/ - http://www.raipon.org/


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 00:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

apples native to the Americas? That's new to me and I got curious.
Yes, some plants of the Old World there were also present in the Americas (cotton for instance), but most didn't.
The New World cotton wasn't the same species though - it's better (90%+ of all modern cotton crops are of the New World species, globally).


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 03:57
You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 
In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 04:31
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 
In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.
 
Not an expert by any means, but I've had some Chilean wines that were outstanding.  The European export wines have gone up in price and down in quality.[That last statement was merely a statement of personal opinion. So chill.]
 
That friend I once mentioned, the doctor from Chile, turned us on to really fine Chilean wine.  


Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 09:08
But isn't that based on imported European grapes?

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Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ - http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/ - http://www.raipon.org/


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 11:24
Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

But isn't that based on imported European grapes?
 
 
 
Not according to the friend who introduced us to these wines.  Why would they import European grapes?  That would make these wines expensive, and they aren't.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 12:25
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

... 
Not an expert by any means, but I've had some Chilean wines that were outstanding.  The European export wines have gone up in price and down in quality.[That last statement was merely a statement of personal opinion. So chill.]
 
That friend I once mentioned, the doctor from Chile, turned us on to really fine Chilean wine.  
 
Yes. Chilean wine is excellent because an amazing reason.  Grapes came to Chile with the conquistadors (you know, the mass), however it was only during the middle of the 19th century when the wine industry started with the import of large quantities of superb FRENCH parrs. Unlikely for the French they suffered the phylostera attack at the end of that century, and since then we have the authentic french grapes LOL...
 
You can find good chilean wine at cheap prices. Actually, most chilean wine is fine, given they are red wines. The price stuff is just for very sensible people. Myself, I buy the cheapest, that kind that isn't export and that here comes in paper-boxes, of those used to pack milk LOL


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

But isn't that based on imported European grapes?
 
Not according to the friend who introduced us to these wines.  Why would they import European grapes?  That would make these wines expensive, and they aren't.
 
You can't make wine with imported grapes, simply because wine is a product with a certificate of origin. If it says "maipo" on it, for instance, it means the par was grown and bottled in the maipo valley.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 12:47
I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.

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Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ - http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/ - http://www.raipon.org/


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 13:24
Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.
 
Yes, chilean wine grapes are French in its origin.
What gives the special character of the wine is the grape, indeed, but also the soil, the rain, the sun and even the tonel were the grape ferment. It is a very interesting and complex process, indeed, and few countries had the condition to making good wines.
In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 
In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.

Actually modern strawberries are a mix of both South and North American types. Anyway, Scandinavian wild strawberries are far superior to these massproduced berries when it comes to taste, but they can't really be grown in large amounts and can only be found in the wild. Smile


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 15:43
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.
Don't say that in Luxembourg.
 
Also you forgot the Balkans. Yugoslav Riesling was a very popular cheap drink when I was an undergraduate. And I'm very partial to retsina in the summertime.
 
Nobody English would leave out Portugal either. And believe it or not we produce it in Hampshire even - http://www.easier.com/view/Lifestyle/Food_and_Drink/Wine/article-121662.html - http://www.easier.com/view/Lifestyle/Food_and_Drink/Wine/article-121662.html
 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 16:42
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

...Actually modern strawberries are a mix of both South and North American types. Anyway, Scandinavian wild strawberries are far superior to these massproduced berries when it comes to taste, but they can't really be grown in large amounts and can only be found in the wild. Smile
 
Actually, the chilean original strawberry taste better than the hybrid known worldwide. However, it has a little defect: it is white instead of red. It is produced in small quantities only as a delicatesen.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 16:48
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

...Actually modern strawberries are a mix of both South and North American types. Anyway, Scandinavian wild strawberries are far superior to these massproduced berries when it comes to taste, but they can't really be grown in large amounts and can only be found in the wild. Smile
 
Actually, the chilean original strawberry taste better than the hybrid known worldwide. However, it has a little defect: it is white instead of red. It is produced in small quantities only as a delicatesen.

I believe you, would be nice to try, though I doubt you can get it around here.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 16:52
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't say that in Luxembourg.
 
Also you forgot the Balkans. Yugoslav Riesling was a very popular cheap drink when I was an undergraduate. And I'm very partial to retsina in the summertime.
 
Nobody English would leave out Portugal either. And believe it or not we produce it in Hampshire even - http://www.easier.com/view/Lifestyle/Food_and_Drink/Wine/article-121662.html - http://www.easier.com/view/Lifestyle/Food_and_Drink/Wine/article-121662.html
 
 
Sorry. I was thinking just in the large mass producers of wine.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 21:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.
 
Yes, chilean wine grapes are French in its origin.
What gives the special character of the wine is the grape, indeed, but also the soil, the rain, the sun and even the tonel were the grape ferment. It is a very interesting and complex process, indeed, and few countries had the condition to making good wines.
In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.
 
 
In the US California gets all the press but on the East Coast there are some superb local wineries.  New York state produces some excellent wines, and believe it or not so does New Jersey.  You brought up strawberries and reminded me that I have to go to Tomasello Vineyards to pick my supply of strawberry wine for the Holidays.  And on the way home stop at the Renault Winery for the New Years Champagne.Wink
 
 
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 23:23

Hey Red Clay:

What do you know about the production of wine made of native grapes, in the East Coast, by some small producers? I am very interested on that topic. Also I would like to know if natives of the East Coast ever made wine before contact. Finally, who knows, perhaps the east coast was the actual Vinland of Norse sagas. Nowhere else in the Atlantic Americas you find grapes.



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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 23:46
The French found grapes in New France but concluded they were inferior to those of France and the "Old World."


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 00:34
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

The French found grapes in New France but concluded they were inferior to those of France and the "Old World."
 
Well the fruit of many plants grows in many places and in many varieties.  New France was eastern Canada, and that is rather too cold for viniculture.....A short growing season too.
 
 


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 00:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Hey Red Clay:

What do you know about the production of wine made of native grapes, in the East Coast, by some small producers? I am very interested on that topic. Also I would like to know if natives of the East Coast ever made wine before contact. Finally, who knows, perhaps the east coast was the actual Vinland of Norse sagas. Nowhere else in the Atlantic Americas you find grapes.

 
Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor.
 
 


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 00:48
On the wines of New York, they do a pretty good job with some white varietals, especially Chardonnay, and they make pretty decent Champagnes. 
 
The industry in NY got started (so I am told) when Americans became somewhat wealthier, and could afford more imported luxuries.  The Champagne of France was quite expensive, and the available supply was impacted by the Franco-Prussian War.  Some hotels, where one dined out in those days, in New York and Boston bought Champagnes from New York State producers and those were well received, as well as being more affordable.
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 01:15

Well, my curiosity goes on the american native varieties of grapes. Vinis Vinifera is the standar international grape we all know. However, in the U.S. there are some wines produces with the variety called Vinis Labrusca (fox grape), and a wine called "Concord" is made from it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ConcordGrapes.jpg">
 
And also with another north american wild variety called vinis riparia (River bank grape) which sometimes is used to make wine as well.
 
If I am not wrong, produce this:
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/Hermannhoff_whitelady_of_starkenburg_wine.jpg">Image:Hermannhoff%20whitelady%20of%20starkenburg%20wine.jpg
 
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 08:29
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

 
Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor. 

Actually, they were quite acquainted with wines: wine was the beverage of choice among those who could afford it. It was a luxury product that had been imported since Roman times. Some saga - I don't remember which - do mention grapes in Vinland. On the other hand, the Norse had no knowledge whatsoever in actually making wine.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 15:25
Styrbiorn:
 
Good point.  Obviously there were interactions between Scandinavia and wine country.  Because of that cartoon thread in the Tavern, I must have been thinking of Hagar the Horrible.  Embarrassed
 
 


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 18:52

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor.

I think they probably found blueberries, which are native to the Maritimes and Maine (I think it might be the only place they can grow even now). The North Shore of Quebec is particularly abundant with them, and the Vikings supposedly did venture there at least once, briefly. These might be the "Vins" they are referring to.

Since they didn't make wine, and weren't familiar with grapes, they could have assumed that the blueberries were grapes (or, at least, something very similar and quite delicious).



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 19:08
You probably have to be careful interpreting Norse references to wine. Even today 'wine' in England is not necessarily made from grapes. Elderflower wine used to be a favourite of mine when you could find it.

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 20:14
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You probably have to be careful interpreting Norse references to wine. Even today 'wine' in England is not necessarily made from grapes. Elderflower wine used to be a favourite of mine when you could find it.

Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Since they didn't make wine, and weren't familiar with grapes, they could have assumed that the blueberries were grapes (or, at least, something very similar and quite delicious).


Blueberries are abundant in Scandinavia though, I seriously doubt they'd mix them up. There were much trade with the Roman world already in the 3-4th centuries, and wine utensils have been found in graves from that time. There is no question that they knew about wine.



Anyway, personally I think the 'vin' in Vinland referes to gracelands, which it also can mean.


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 20:34

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Blueberries are abundant in Scandinavia though, I seriously doubt they'd mix them up.

No. There are no real blueberries in Scandinavia at all - it is another plant, the bilberry. Calling a bilberry a blueberry is a colloqualism (slang). Not the same plant.

Blueberries are flowering plants in the genus Vaccinium, sect. Cyanococcus. The species are native only to North America . . .

Several other plants of the genus Vaccinium also produce blue berries which are sometimes confused with blueberries, mainly the predominantly European bilberry (Vaccinium myrtillus), which in many languages has a name that means "blueberry" in English . . .

True wild blueberries (section Cyanococcus of the genus Vaccinium) occur naturally only in eastern and north-central North America. Other sections in the genus, native to other parts of the world including western North America, Europe, and Asia, include other wild shrubs producing similar-looking edible berries such as huckleberries, cranberries, bilberries and cowberries. These are sometimes colloquially called blueberries and sold as blueberry jam or other products.

The names of blue berries in languages other than English often translate as "blueberry", e.g. Scots Blaeberry and Norwegian Blåbær, although those berries may belong to another species. For example, Blåbær and French myrtilles usually refer to the European native bilberry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueberry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueberry



Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 20:46
Well, we called them blueberries before America was discovered, I didn't realize you've switched names on them in English. You learn something every day. I guess that could be a reason for a mixup. How do they taste, compared to the European berries?


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 21:09
I've never tasted a bilberry so I don't know how they compare, but blueberries are really good. They have a sweet taste but not too sweet. Blueberry juice is especially good. Apparently you can make a wine with them that's supposedly quite good, but I've never had it.


Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 21:37
Interestingly those blueberries grow in clusters, according to Wiki. So it may be that they truly are the "wine" of the Sagas. However, the berries themselves look very similar to bilberries (that we call blueberries).

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Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ - http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/ - http://www.raipon.org/


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 23:15
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor.

I think they probably found blueberries, which are native to the Maritimes and Maine (I think it might be the only place they can grow even now). The North Shore of Quebec is particularly abundant with them, and the Vikings supposedly did venture there at least once, briefly. These might be the "Vins" they are referring to.

Since they didn't make wine, and weren't familiar with grapes, they could have assumed that the blueberries were grapes (or, at least, something very similar and quite delicious).

 
 
 
Mead and or beer was an important dietary supplement more than it was a recreational drink.
 
 
Scuppernongs Are a wild grape.  The true fox grape.  Concord grapes aren't wild.  Scuppernong grows well into maine and westward.
 
Blueberries on the other hand grow nearly the entire length of the East Coast.  The cultivated blueberry originated at a site about 20 miles from my home in a place called Whitesbog. [New Jersey strikes again]
 
New jersey was once the leading producer of Blueberries.  I think it now falls in at 8th or 9th.  The oldest and largest Blueberry growers co-op, "Tru Blue" once had over 400 active growers.  Two years ago, with less than 20 members, they finally shut down.
 
BTW- the wild varieties of blueberries are called Huckleberries and are much smaller and a different color than bluberries, making it unlikely that they were mistaken for grapes.
 
 
 


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 23:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.
 
Yes, chilean wine grapes are French in its origin.
What gives the special character of the wine is the grape, indeed, but also the soil, the rain, the sun and even the tonel were the grape ferment. It is a very interesting and complex process, indeed, and few countries had the condition to making good wines.
In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.
 
OK, pinguin....as I type this, a bottle of Chilean Veramonte Primus 2005 is breathing.  It is a meritage (Carmenere/Cab. Sauv./Merlot), not at all high on the cork, and maybe it is too early to drink it, but, hey, I can do what I want.  The price was decent; $20 US.  I will let you know how it goes with a medium rare steak and some ripe cheeses for dessert.  Smile
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 23:39
Cheers!
 
And yes! Red wine is to be accompanied with food, particularly meat! (White wine goes better with fish)
 
But 20 US$ the bottle? My godness!!
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2008 at 23:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Cheers!
 
And yes! Red wine is to be accompanied with food, particularly meat! (White wine goes better with fish)
 
But 20 US$ the bottle? My godness!!
 
 
 
Well, we have a state monopoly on liquor where I live, and much of that price is tax.  However, the state has enormous purchasing power, and the selection is huge.  They can inventory and warehouse much larger amounts of wine.  I don't know what to say....except, "do you want to drink or not?"
 
Our prices are better than most of the surrounding states, and the selection is much better.  If the wine is "corked" and not good, or if you just don't like it, they will refund your money without question.  Not many private merchants will do that.
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 00:13
That's look pretty good. It just called my attention your bottle cost 10 times more the wine I drink. But good wines are pricy, so I guess it is fine.
 
Cheers, again.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2008 at 17:49

Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

BTW- the wild varieties of blueberries are called Huckleberries and are much smaller and a different color than bluberries, making it unlikely that they were mistaken for grapes.

Huckleberries are not blueberries!! Again, its a confusion of naming but the berries referred to that way are a similar plant of the same genus, but not the same species at all.

The wild blueberries are called "lowbush" blueberries. They are a smaller plant, with smaller berries, though they have a more intense colour and tend to be sweeter and more valuable by weight (better for making premium jams, juices or wines because of the higher glucose content, not as good for use whole). 

Highbush blueberries - the cultivated sort - are less sweet and not as valuable on the market since they aren't as good for making jams or juices. They are typically used whole, in baking etc (blueberry muffins and so on). You can make jams and juices with them, they just aren't as suited to it and usually need more processing and additives. If you buy a 100% pure unadulterated blueberry juice, it is probably lowbush.

In parts of the Maritimes lowbush blueberries grow in vast barrens, where they are the only plant that exists in that soil. Incidentally, there is one such expanse not far from L'Anse Aux Meadows.

If the Vikings hadn't seen actual grapes (only imported wine), they could see that the blueberries looked like bilberries but were obviously different and much better for making wine or juice. They would have known that these were not bilberries. They might have thought these were grapes, if they had never seen grapes - or maybe they simply used the closest word they had ("Vin") to approximate what it was that they found. Finally, they could have knowingly used the term "Vin" to refer  to the blueberries as a marketing ploy for settlers (the same way they named "Greenland" after discovering "Iceland" didn't appeal to settlers too much!)

Finally - if they found blueberries and really liked them (which is quite probable), what other name were they supposed to use? They had found a berry that was very sweet and highly suited to winemaking growing in vast abundance ... the easiest thing to do would be to call it a "grape", since grapes do of course come in many different sizes, shapes, and colours.



Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 07:42

Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Finally - if they found blueberries and really liked them (which is quite probable), what other name were they supposed to use? They had found a berry that was very sweet and highly suited to winemaking growing in vast abundance ... the easiest thing to do would be to call it a "grape", since grapes do of course come in many different sizes, shapes, and colours.

And this certainly wouldn't be unusual. After all, "corn" is a very old word that didn't always mean corn, and some poor soul was left to describe a new fruit to his countrymen and came up with "pine-apple".

On a side note, I don't think there's any fruit better than wild blueberries - which is why it always bothers me that distorted economies of scale result in supermarkets being stocked almost exclusively with cultivated blueberries from Oregon, even when local berries are in season and being picked by the ton all over Ontario and Quebec.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 12:00
Indeed. "Corn" was a word used for grain in Europe long before contact, unlike "Maize" that, I believe is native and more specific.
 
Europeans had a lot of trouble describing the fruits and animals they found in the new world, and they just picked what appeared closest. That's why Brits called the Peruvian domestic rodent a "Guinea Pig", which is wrong because it is an animal from the Americas. The Spaniards didn't do better, they called that animal "rabbit from the Indies" or rabbit from the Americas! which is also wrong because cuys aren't rabbits but rodents. The most pathetic case is the name of llamas Spaniards gave. They called it "lambs from the land". I really don't find any similarity at all between llamas and lambs!
 
So, we must be aware about these problems in naming that aren't enough to determine the actual plant or animal that is described in the texts
 
 
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 13:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Indeed. "Corn" was a word used for grain in Europe long before contact, unlike "Maize" that, I believe is native and more specific.
 
Europeans had a lot of trouble describing the fruits and animals they found in the new world, and they just picked what appeared closest. That's why Brits called the Peruvian domestic rodent a "Guinea Pig", which is wrong because it is an animal from the Americas. The Spaniards didn't do better, they called that animal "rabbit from the Indies" or rabbit from the Americas! which is also wrong because cuys aren't rabbits but rodents. The most pathetic case is the name of llamas Spaniards gave. They called it "lambs from the land". I really don't find any similarity at all between llamas and lambs!
Yes, there are alot of naming problems like that ... I can think also of the French word for potato, "pomme de terre" (apple of the earth). Similar with the name for bison ... "bison" is Greek for an ox, "buffalo" comes from French "boeuf", for beef/cattle. Obviously they are neither!


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 14:15
Oh, yes, buffalo. I once tried bufallo meat (grown in farms) at a Canadian restaurant. What a wonderful meat. The best I ever tried, sincerely.
With respect to guinea pig, I forgot to tell the name "pig" comes from the fact those animals whistle and send a sound similar to pigs. That's an amazing mascot for kids, because one can whistle to them.... and they answer Confused.. I had a female guinea pig that was at home during eight years and died of old. It was a very beloved "member of the family" LOL


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2008 at 23:37

Strange, I'm Canadian and I've never tried buffalo (I have tried caribou though .. very good).

They now have some sort of hybrid crossbreed, they call it "beefalo". There's a small herd of them not far from here.

Guineau pigs are popular pets up here too, I never had any idea they were Peruvian ... I always thought they were from Guinea in Africa!



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 00:19
Yes, "guinea" pigs are Peruvian. There is pre-contact pottery that show them in ancient Peru.
 
They aren't Mexican, either:
 
They are Peruvian, and a common icon in ancient Peruvian art:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Guineapiglarcomuseum.jpg">File:Guineapiglarcomuseum.jpg
This is from 200 AD Peru.
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 01:23

So were they domesticated by Inca, Moche etc? Or were they more like rats or mice?

If they were domesticated, on what scale and for what purpose? Pets for wealthy elites? Food? 



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 01:54
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

So were they domesticated by Inca, Moche etc? Or were they more like rats or mice?

If they were domesticated, on what scale and for what purpose? Pets for wealthy elites? Food? 

 
 
The topic is getting interesting. Cuys (guinea pigs) were domesticated as food, and still is a popular meat in countries like Peru and Bolivia ConfusedConfused. They are very ancient animals, and looked the same since old times, but I bet domestication had produced the variety, colloring, soft hair, and nice character, that you can see today.
 
First, you have to understand one of the main problems on nutrition in the Americas it was the lack of cattle. In the Americas there weren't domesticated large meat animals like cows, sheep or goats. In many societies the problem was solved by hunting wild animals, but that wasn't a good solution when population grew into civilizations. That's why in Mexico they grew dogs for eating them. In Peru they could eat llamas (and still do), and developed the guinea pig for the same purpose. Llamas, though, are a very usefull animal to produce textiles and to transport loads, so killing them for food it was expensive. That's why they breed cuys as a cheap food for daily consumption.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 02:27

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

First, you have to understand one of the main problems on nutrition in the Americas it was the lack of cattle. In the Americas there weren't domesticated large meat animals like cows, sheep or goats.

Yep, mind you, the medieval European commoner didn't get to eat red meat more than a few times a year. Most of the meat in their diet was fish or pork. Even chicken was apparently quite a luxury item. I think this is probably because cattle produce milk, chickens produce eggs, sheep produce wool, and so on, but pork obviously is only good for meat. Plus the others all have to be fed crops, at least during the winter, while pigs can just eat refuse and can also forage a little in forests even in winter. This means that to eat beef or chicken on any sort of regular basis, you would need to be able to store a massive quantity of grains for the winter to keep a herd going, and average people had a hard enough time storing enough food for people let alone livestock. The nobility, obviously, had an easy time because their serfs paid them in crops.

Go back to earlier civilizations like Egypt or Sumer and the commoners (not the elites, obviously) were almost entirely vegetarian, except for fish and wild fowl. I suspect this is because floodplain civilizations don't have alot of good pasture land, they have excellent farmland, and then swamps or deserts or mountains, not much inbetween, so they would have to grow most of the food for livestock or graze them on good farmland.

A little off-topic, but I've always been bothered by assertions that Eurasians were eating more or better meat when in fact they hardly ate much at all, besides fish, unless they were very wealthy.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 03:20
That's actually very true.
At least for Spaniards, they escaped Europe to the Americas to leave behind poverty and hunger.
However, we should recognize that the introduction of cattle, and certain plants like wheat and rice to the Americas improved quite a bit the lifestyle of the people in the Americas. In fact, among the Mapuches, sheep replaces guanacos (savage relatives of llamas) as a source of meat and animal textile fibers. Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat. Other animals, like the ox, the mule and the horse, revolutionazed transport and the manipulation of heavy loads.
In return, the Americas gave plants like the potatoes, that aliviated very much the periodic hunger crisis in Europe
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 20:47
I remember a friend, whose grandparents owned property outside of the small town of St. Mary, Idaho, (state) told me about some lost gold mine there.

The story goes that the Spanish found gold and enslaved some of the local Indians to dig their mine. In time the indians rebelled and trapped the Spanish within the mine. Who knows if this is a true story or just some urban legend but his grandfather believed the lost mine was somewhere on his property. I think he said they owned around 200 acres and it is mountain country with dense evergreen forests; mostly pine, douglas fir and red bark cedar.

It was his dream to find it but hopefully it did not have a curse on it like the lost gold mine somewhere in the Las Padres National Forest of S. California- It is the same story with enslaved indians rebelling and burying the spainards into the mine but with a curse. I read the curse was agianst anyone who even tried to locate this lost mine. We tried and it is one long hike into the Los Padres back country, so now I know what has gone wrong with my life-


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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 03:56
The Americas are full of those delicious but -usually- false stories. In Chile, for instance, the myths about pirate threasures buried long time ago are widespread, and some people had wasted a fortune trying to locate them... but they are never found...

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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 13:39
Right.  Fountains of youth, El Dorado; Blackbeard's treasure, etc.
 
If Blackbeard had a treasure, he would have retired to Miami.  Instead he had to keep on plundering.  And....sticking his neck out. Big smile
 
 


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 20:57
I think there are several myths with the same scenario- Spainards find gold or silver, enslave local indians, indians rebele and enclose the Spainards in the mine with a curse.

I also heard stories about all the caves north of my old city Spokane that were used to smuggle booze across the border during the prohibition. It could be true but the local I talked to still cannot find all those caves but the forest is very dense with steep terrain- grizzly bears also.

I read a story about some bank robbers who robbed a stage coach with a chest full of money in Walla Walla, WA and then buried it somewhere about days horse ride from the town. They then took a steam boat to San Franciso till things cooled down but were caught and hung. The loot is supposed to be still buried below a bluff- true story????
It was the pay shipment to the miners in Florence, Idaho, the site of a well known gold strike in the NW.

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 11:53

I am curious, why you in North America had the Spaniards as the bad guys that exploit Indians to extract gold, while we here in South America have the British pirats (corsairs included) as the bad guys that had buried treasures product of theirs robbery on Spanish towns and gallions.

I believe this fact deserves a psycological and sociological analysis.



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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 12:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am curious, why you in North America had the Spaniards as the bad guys that exploit Indians to extract gold, while we here in South America have the British pirats (corsairs included) as the bad guys that had buried treasures product of theirs robbery on Spanish towns and gallions.

I believe this fact deserves a psycological and sociological analysis.

 
Start with the primary sources for the early modern period.  The English didn't have anything good to say about those Papist Spaniards who wanted to invade them, and the Spanish didn't have anything good to say about those hertical English who had the nerve to sail to the West Indies.
 
The historical record is of bad feeling, war and twenty years of frustration as the English could not really disrupt the Spanish Atlantic economy, and the Spanish could neither stop the English raiding nor invade England to make them stop it.
 
Corsairs in the 16th and into the 17th century were naval strategy "on the cheap."  Letters of marque, privateering with deniability, etc.  Piracy after that was mostly another issue entirely.
 
Not much psychosociology here.  The two sides had differing interests, and they had a continuing cultural clash (Huntington didn't do early modern history though Wink ).
 
  


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 13:11
Interesting. In my country, Chile, there are many legends of attempts made by corsairs and pirates, not only from Britain but also from Dutchland, France and "independents" to enter the "Spanish sea" that was the Pacific. Some came to capture posts, others to attack indefense cities or to attack the Manila Galleon. In any case, the scale of those attack were such small that it doesn't make sense all the paranoia that generated on our ancestors.
One of the most curious is an Dutch incursion that tried to made an alliance with the Mapuches. Well, the xenophobic Mapuches didn't trust anyone, so the alliance failled, and the dreams of that power in the Pacific as well. Curiously, today the same region has many german descendents LOL
 
Today it is known the Spanish had a network of spies in Britain, and that the attempts to cross the Cape Horn were alerted before they happened.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 14:03
Pinguin, it was known in the 16th century that Spain had a network of spies in England :-) (At least it was believed to have, I don't know how sound the evidence was: Walsingham was about as sound as the CIA for similar reasons.)
 
However, since we're talking myths, is it true that Santa Anna introduced chewing gum to North America?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 14:17
Walsingham probably knew more about the Enterprise of England (the worst kept secret in Europe) than Phillip II.  Someone had to know the vulnerabilities of Cadiz in 1587.
 
 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 15:26
There was a well organized secret service in England, with several british colaborators in the payroll. I don't think we are talking of a single spy or event. That service worked for a long time.
 
When the incursions to the Pacific were planned at London, the news travelled fast to Spain, from there to the Caribbean, Panama, and rushing from Peru to the Chilean south. Somehow that route was fast enough to alert the defenses at the Pacific, and several incursions ended in disaster, for the corsairs. I have formal references comming from a reseach book made in Chile, that certainly you don't have access abroad. If you need for schollarly reasons, just ask them please.
 
And with respect to Santa Anna, in fact he is recognized as the introductor of chewing gun to the United States, and from there it spread to the world. In Mexico, though it was known since ancient times.
 
 
 
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 10:51
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

There was a well organized secret service in England, with several british colaborators in the payroll. I don't think we are talking of a single spy or event. That service worked for a long time.
 
When the incursions to the Pacific were planned at London, the news travelled fast to Spain, from there to the Caribbean, Panama, and rushing from Peru to the Chilean south. Somehow that route was fast enough to alert the defenses at the Pacific, and several incursions ended in disaster, for the corsairs. I have formal references comming from a reseach book made in Chile, that certainly you don't have access abroad. If you need for schollarly reasons, just ask them please.
That's OK. I don't find the statements surprising, except I'm a little sceptical about the importance of it. I doubt the 'corsairs' had any clear idea of where they were heading for, and unoless they could be picked up rounding the Horn (a practical impossibility) it wouldn't be much use knowing they were on the way to somewhere on the Pacific coast.
 
What I was picking up on was your saying 'we know today', when basically we knew all along.
 
And with respect to Santa Anna, in fact he is recognized as the introductor of chewing gun to the United States, and from there it spread to the world. In Mexico, though it was known since ancient times.
 
 
 
 
[/QUOTE]

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 10:54
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Walsingham probably knew more about the Enterprise of England (the worst kept secret in Europe) than Phillip II.  Someone had to know the vulnerabilities of Cadiz in 1587.
 
 
I didn't mean to disparage Walsingham's competence (or even the CIA's). I meant his predilection for telling people of influence what they wanted to hear, or what would further his own position.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 20:12
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am curious, why you in North America had the Spaniards as the bad guys that exploit Indians to extract gold, while we here in South America have the British pirats (corsairs included) as the bad guys that had buried treasures product of theirs robbery on Spanish towns and gallions.


I believe this fact deserves a psycological and sociological analysis.



that is a good question- I do not know-???

There is also the legend, in Arizona, of the Lost Dutchman's gold mine. I will have to reread it but I think the miners, not spainards, were guilty of cruelly exploiting the Indians and once the indians rebelled they were also buried in the mine with a curse. I read somewhere that even looking for the lost mine would bring the curse upon you. I also some a program on TV about it but that is often hype.

anyone here know about the lost Dutchman's gold mine?

Here is something from wikipedia on the lost Dutchman's gold mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Dutchmans_Gold_Mine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Dutchman's_Gold_Mine


By Dusty Pixel on Flickr


Name: CurseOfDutchmansGold.jpg

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 18:46
There is also the legend of the lost shipment with gold and silver coins somewhere in the mountains of Arizona state, I cannot recall the mountain range right now. Plenty of people have looked for it but so far nobody has found it. I wish I could be that one-

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 00:59
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Walsingham probably knew more about the Enterprise of England (the worst kept secret in Europe) than Phillip II.  Someone had to know the vulnerabilities of Cadiz in 1587.
 
 
I didn't mean to disparage Walsingham's competence (or even the CIA's). I meant his predilection for telling people of influence what they wanted to hear, or what would further his own position.
 
I would regard that as a result of the political culture of patronage.  It may have been less so in Spain where the King had the Grandees, who did not owe their sources of wealth to the Habsburgs.
 
 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 14:10
Yes, patronage. However, the situation in Spain wasn't very different for less-than-grandees (like Walsingham). You still needed a patron.

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 16:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Yes, patronage. However, the situation in Spain wasn't very different for less-than-grandees (like Walsingham). You still needed a patron.
 
Agreed.  In England, it seems that patronage was more directly associated with the monarch, but was more dispersed in the Spanish Habsburg territories.  Of course geographic detachment and the natures of the various kingdoms affected that.
 
Patronage was dispensed by the Grandees to their own clients, but that was the case with other kingdoms and principalities as well.
 
I did not mean to imply that princely patronage was not a usual socio-political practice everywhere in early modern Europe.
 
 


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 17:22
I saw an old book at our local library about legendary lost gold, silver or mines. I read it once beforee in Idaho but I think it is mostly myth or urban legends. My friend had it at the ranch he worked out and if revised and reprinted I am sure most of this loot has never be found, if any of it.

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 20:24
I remember one myth I learned about when I was backpaking in the Seven Devil Mountains on the Idaho-Oregon border or Hells Canyon National Recreation area.

The story goes that the area was named after an Indian who met seven devils in these mountains but that is all I know. I found this story on the back of the US Forest Service map for the Seven Devil Wilderness Area. The area has since been given all types of goulish and devilish names by Americans. It is a very spectacular area with jagged glacier carved peaks, forests and beautiful meadows.


By jimgspokane on Flickr


By tracyharton on Flickr

We camped at this very lake!!

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 17:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.
No breastfeeding then?


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.
No breastfeeding then?
 
LOL
 
 


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 22:27
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?


not even from Llama???

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: Jallaludin Akbar
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 23:24
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?


not even from Llama???
lol, i dont think i'd like that , but they did have a diet rich in fruits and produce..i guess that helps


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"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-Mahatma Gandhi



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:20
The myths about big foot by Native Americans is interesting. I have heard some people talk about the so-called relationship Native Americans had with this mythical creature. Off hand I do not know any but if you do please tell us.


Please not about whether you believe in it or not- keep focused!!



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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 01:51
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?
 

not even from Llama???
 
Believe me or not, we have Llamas in Chile, and that animal is as common as sheep and goats in Northern Chile. But believe me or not, I never ever have heared about llama milk or llama cheese for human consumtion. No other animal that size was available to produce milk. 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 20:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?
  not even from Llama???

 

Believe me or not, we have Llamas in Chile, and that animal is as common as sheep and goats in Northern Chile. But believe me or not, I never ever have heared about llama milk or llama cheese for human consumtion. No other animal that size was available to produce milk. 


I know the Spanish introduced Sheep to the Navajo and probably the Hopi and Pueblo as well. You know many of the ruins in Arizona, Utah and New Mexico, we called Anasazi, are autually Hopi or Pueblo.

I wonder if there are any good myths from these tribes that someone can share with us. Now that I am volunteering at the American Indian museum I am going to start buying books about the arcaheology and native history of this area, also pioneer history. I have a great great Uncle who was buried in Tombstone, Arizona in the 1870's. I wonder what are some of the old wild west legends here. I will found out and post any here penguin.
Both North and South America are rich in lore, central also

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 22:40
Interesting point. The contact with the Spaniards changed the lifestyle of most Native Americans across the hemisphere. Spaniards introduced not only the horse, but also the sheep, the goat, the cow, the ox, the mule, and some vegetables like rice, lettuches, oranges, lemmons, etc. In clothing they introduced pants, the "sombrero", etc.
In fact, when the expansion to the west happened in the U.S., many American Indians were already acculturized by contact with Spaniards, so they have horses, for instance and many interesting things.
Even more curious is that people like the Navajo today still have Spanish last names.
 
Interesting work you have. Please keep me up to day with yours discoveries.


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 09:11
In western North America, horses often spread ahead of European contact via native trade routes.

So did religion in a few rare cases. A converted Iroqouis fur trader named "Old Ignace" travelled to Montana and settled down among tribes there. He proselytized among the Kalispel and Flathead tribes, and spoke alot about the mystical powers of the "Black Robes" (Catholic missionaries). The Salish decided the new religion wasn't complete without these "Black Robes" and sent several expeditions east to bring some. These expeditions all failed. The last, led by Old Ignace himself was attacked and killed by a Sioux warband. 

At some later point a Protestant evangelist showed up, but he was not accepted because he didn't have black robes or a rosary.

After this, another expedition was sent, and they encountered a Catholic priest somewhere in Iowa and brought him back.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 11:43

That's quite interesting. It shows very clearly the magnetic impact that the christian religion had on natives. In Latin America we say the Americas were conquered "by the sword and the cross" and that is what it meant. The christian religion really fascinated natives, particularly the catholic branch with its amazing rituals, fine music and visually impressive clothes.



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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 18:29
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

In western North America, horses often spread ahead of European contact via native trade routes.So did religion in a few rare cases. A converted Iroqouis fur trader named "Old Ignace" travelled to Montana and settled down among tribes there. He proselytized among the Kalispel and Flathead tribes, and spoke alot about the mystical powers of the "Black Robes" (Catholic missionaries). The Salish decided the new religion wasn't complete without these "Black Robes" and sent several expeditions east to bring some. These expeditions all failed. The last, led by Old Ignace himself was attacked and killed by a Sioux warband. At some later point a Protestant evangelist showed up, but he was not accepted because he didn't have black robes or a rosary.After this, another expedition was sent, and they encountered a Catholic priest somewhere in Iowa and brought him back.


I only have a few but yes the black robes opened the door for conversion to the Couer d' Alene Indian Tribe in Idaho/ E. Washington states. It is an amazing story I learned while I worked as an archivist at the Old Mission State Park in N. Idaho. The Saga of the Coeur d' Alenes by Chief Gary is really good.

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 21:10
Great topic. Please research. You may have the material for an essay there, at hand.

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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 18:34
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Great topic. Please research. You may have the material for an essay there, at hand.


While I worked at Old Mission State Park in N. Idaho I barrowed a number of books, from the museum, which talked about the black robes but I cannot recall the info since the only book I have is "The Sage of the Couer d' Alene Indians" by Chief Gary- It is now out of print.

I know there was a lot of competition between Catholic and Prostestant missionaries back then. The Cour d Alene related more to the Roman Catholic missonaries because of the mysticism and ceremonies, which the Protestant lacked. It held a big similarity to the own traditions. There is a book about Father DeSmhet or maybe it is desmet. I live in a totally new region so while I volunteer at this museum I will do lots of research. I am really interested in the Hopi and Pueblo indians. I prefer Pre Greek and Bronze Age Greek civilization but the opportunity is here so as Julius Caesar said, Sieze the day!!

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 00:18
Well, just see it this way. There are thousand of researchers studying Greeks while in here you may have hitted virgin territory.
 
In my case, I haven't seen a full comparative study about the cristianization of the Americas from Alaska to the Land of Fire; that could be a monumental work. The study of the evolution of society from the Anazasis to modern Hopi and Pueblo may be another interesting line of research. Even such mundane work as to research Pueblo architecture is something amazing. In short, you have there a good opportunity.
 


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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 18:08
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, just see it this way. There are thousand of researchers studying Greeks while in here you may have hitted virgin territory.
 


In my case, I haven't seen a full comparative study about the cristianization of the Americas from Alaska to the Land of Fire; that could be a monumental work. The study of the evolution of society from the Anazasis to modern Hopi and Pueblo may be another interesting line of research. Even such mundane work as to research Pueblo architecture is something amazing. In short, you have there a good opportunity.

 


That is so true and in the desert Southwest the archaeologist work hand in hand with the Native Americans. It is interesting at some of the museum events the archaeologist explians the history from his angle and then the Native American goes into the myths and folklore that relate to the finds. Some of the artifacts are being reclaimed because of the Repatriation Act. I wonder if this is why the Northwest Muesum of Art and culture put most of their large native collection out of sight and only for research-



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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 21:11
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 

In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.

 

Not an expert by any means, but I've had some Chilean wines that were outstanding.  The European export wines have gone up in price and down in quality.[That last statement was merely a statement of personal opinion. So chill.]

 

That friend I once mentioned, the doctor from Chile, turned us on to really fine Chilean wine.  


Wine from Walla Walla, Washington are excellent!!

I have a story, from a Pacific Northwest tribe, which I will have to summarize later about two Native American girl, joking around the campfire, made a regretfull wish. They saw all the beautiful stars in the midnight sky and one wished the white star would be her husband and the other wished the blue star to be her husband. You really should watch out what you wish for because the stars became men and came to their bedrooms and took them to another world. The white star turned out not only to be unattractive but a jerk but the blue star turned out to be handsome and kind. I will try and add more on this later. What is the moral of this tale- stay tuned!!
Has anyone heard of tales like this one?

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 11:51
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:


Has anyone heard of tales like this one?
 
There's a nice story about Blowing Rock in North Carolina. I was there a few years ago but didn't try out the miraculous powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_Rock,_North_Carolina - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_Rock,_North_Carolina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_Rock,_North_Carolina -  
 
Sometimes myths are true. I wonder if this will be dismissed as myth sometime in the future:
http://www.elinordewire.com/wavinggirl.htm - http://www.elinordewire.com/wavinggirl.htm


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 18:48
thanks gcle2003 when I get a chance I will read those stories but it looks interesting. I still have to summarize the star story so maybe when I have time I will do that and post it here. I gather the moral of the star story is watch out what you wish for and be content with what you have.

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2009 at 20:34
I started to read Hopi gods and myths and I find it very facinating because it compares Hopi myth to Greek. I once saw a show about things that happened that the government has silenced. The show talked about how some archaeologist found a room in the southwest and entered the threshold and then came to an interior door. They felt a strong breeze blow against them when they tried to enter but ignored it. ( I would have stopped) Once the first man entered he instantly died so they sent in a robot but some force would not allow it to go very far. A man of Hopi or Pueblo ancestry was allowed in and met some beautiful Hopi woman who allowed him to enter this mystical realm, he never returned. At the end the government blew up the entrance with dynamite. For me, it was entertaining and I did not take it serious, although, I believe in a realm we cannot see. Funny, Hopi gods and myth talks about a doorway that brought the Hopi into this world and takes them out upon death and it is only for Hopi. I am sure the script writer read about this but who knows- I am not totally closed minded to the other side. I wonder if there is anyone of Hopi or Pueblo ancestry here?   Did anyone else see this show broadcasted 3-4 years ago.

I was also reading about Masauwu or Skeleton Man who takes a similar role as Satan in Christian/ Jewish beliefs. His is also a trickster also like satan and the Coyote. The book talked about a professor who was at a Hopi village during a sacred cermony ( cannot recall the name now) but all roads are blocked so that a highway to the supernatural world can be bridged. If someone enters the village during this ceremony then this road to the heavens is cut off. The professor was not Hopi so he was asked to stay inside and out of sight duirng the ceremony so he complied. He was alone and suddenly saw a man by his side and asked how did you get in and this happened three times. The man said I want to entertain you but the proffessor replied, go away I am busy and suddenly the man disapeared but then reappeared with different faces. To sum it up the old professor suddenly realized that this was Masauwu the Hopi god of death and life. Of course, this is the Hopi version and according to the Professors version he left because of a small pox outbreak- who do you believe?

Masauwu was alternately described as a handsome, bejeweled man beneath his mask or as a bloody, fearsome creature – Like I said the old Proffessor saw different faces of this Hopi god, whether it really happened or not – well ?????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_mythology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_mythology



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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.



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