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What is the true religion?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Philosophy and Theology
Forum Description: Topics relating to philosophy
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URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25824
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Topic: What is the true religion?
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: What is the true religion?
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 13:14

I said in http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25688 - this thread :

Quote "Good in a relgion is that it says follow your conscience, not what a religion dictates!"

and Omar al Hashim replied:

Quote I don't think any religion says follow your conscience. Your conscience may be mislead by the devil.

Do you agree with him?

"Follow the true religion which is your conscience (your godly nature), nothing can change it, that is the eternal and stable Religion (has ever existed) but most people don't know it!" (Quran 30:30)




Replies:
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 15:14
I don't see what else anyone can do.
 
Unfortunately not everyone has a conscience that prevents him doing harm to others. So crime and therefore punishment will always be with us.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 15:25
In Romans Paul's epistle (chapter 2), he says that those who haven't had the Law (of the Judaic religion), meaning the pagans, will be judged by their conscience:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.





Also, in Eastern Christianity, the voice of the moral conscience is considered the voice of God in our hearts, that tells us what is good and what is bad, and that by repeatedly unobeying it, it dies, is no more accusing or stopping you from bad things.





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Posted By: Mixcoatl
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 16:54
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:


Also, in Eastern Christianity, the voice of the moral conscience is considered the voice of God in our hearts, that tells us what is good and what is bad, and that by repeatedly unobeying it, it dies, is no more accusing or stopping you from bad things.

Then why does God say different things to different people?


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"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 17:04
Because some have been indoctrinated with man-made precepts, or have some mental disorders.

I add that some Father of the Church (don't remember who, maybe Augustin) said that the Christians have a stronger feeling of conscience than the non-Christians.

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Posted By: Mixcoatl
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 18:58
Then how can one know if what ones conscience tells you is the actual word of God or man-made indoctrinations? If my conscience says A is the right thing to do, whuile yours says B should be done, how can we tell which one (if any) is right?


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"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:03
What is generaly accepted as good and bad by most of humanity is the natural conscience.



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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:21
Of course many people distinguish morality and ethics from religion and do not consider that we (I'm an atheist) need a religion to guide us, rather we trust our own morality, common sense and ethics. So the responsibility is mine to determine the above and act accordingly, in conjuction with the society and I do not delegate this responsibility to an imaginary entity.
 
Spoken like a true  Hyparxist. Camus would be proud!


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:30
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I don't see what else anyone can do.
 
Unfortunately not everyone has a conscience that prevents him doing harm to others. So crime and therefore punishment will always be with us.
Lets read previous ayat:
 
"The ones who do wrong follow their own Hava without having any knowledge." (Quran 30:29)
 
Hava means whims, lust and immorality in Arabic and can be said to be the antonym of conscience, so everyone has also a Hava which not only doesn't prevent but also encourages him harm to others, it just depends on his knowledge of it.
 


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:47
Zoroastrianism 

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Anfører


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:05
I don't want to say Zoroastrianism, Atheism, Christianity or Islam are not good and you shouldn't follow them but I believe "bias" certainly relates to "hava", I mean you will follow your Hava, if you say all good things are here (in this religion or ideology) and nothing else can guide or help me to clear my conscience.


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 23:56
Oh you mean the native deen - that naturally people will follow Islamic values. Sorry Cyrus I didn't understand what you meant when you said that. The verse you have referenced explains it perfectly. The difference between a persons conscious and temptation.
In that case I think I agree with you.

Quote
[30:29-30]

Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.

So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.

(Yusuf Ali translation)



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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 05:56

Christianity relates to the Christ and a Christian is a follower of the Christ, it can be said about Zoroastrianism & Zoroastrians, Buddhism & Buddhists, ... Judaism is also the religion of Jews, but Islam is not the relgion of the Arabs and there is no relation betwen Islam and Muhammad, so Muslims are not the followers of Muhammad, Islam (from the root Salam) means to submit to your conscience, not hava or any person or nationality.

Therefore Christians, Zoroastrians, Muhammadans, Jews, ... who follow their conscience are real Muslims, "Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was the follower of the true relgion, a muslim." (Quran 3:67), in Quran 42:13 we read that all true relgions are them same, there has been always just One Religion: Follow Your Conscience!

In this case, as I said before, I am a muslim.


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 05:56
In brief, we are obligated to follow an informed conscience. That is to say that we have an obligation to continue to follow our conscience while continuing to inform it. If anyone wishes to discuss this position further, send me a pm, and I'll be happy to engage in a discussion in a week or so.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Truthisnotrelitive
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 09:57
Of course many people distinguish morality and ethics from religion and do not consider that we (I'm an atheist) need a religion to guide us, rather we trust our own morality, common sense and ethics. So the responsibility is mine to determine the above and act accordingly, in conjuction with the society and I do not delegate this responsibility to an imaginary entity.

i would like to point out that you are confusing the words "morality" and "ethics" as having the same or similar meanings. the truth is that morality is a law code or a belief system based on majority vote. if 51 % of the pop;ulation say murder is wrong, the moraly speaking, murder is bad.

but ethics is a different kettle of fish. ethics is based on a higher law, set by a supreme omnipresernt all powerful diety. so reguarless of what mortal vote dictates, right and worng are not decided by our personal prefrences, but by the big boss up stairs. Wink


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a man sees as he wishes


Posted By: Truthisnotrelitive
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 10:00
with all due respect my freind, there is no room for ethics in an atheistic worldveiw.Smile

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a man sees as he wishes


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 11:32
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

with all due respect my freind, there is no room for ethics in an atheistic worldveiw.Smile


Nonsense. Of course there is. Even the very beginnings of ethics as a studied subject was not directly related to religion. In fact there were discussions of ethics visavi religion long before Christianity was born.


Edit: by the way, "moral" is the Latin translation of the Greek "ethics". In the modern era the words are treated basicly synonymous, sometimes with the distinction that moral is applied ethics.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 12:10
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

Then how can one know if what ones conscience tells you is the actual word of God or man-made indoctrinations? If my conscience says A is the right thing to do, whuile yours says B should be done, how can we tell which one (if any) is right?
 
You can't, which means you're asking a pointless question, which is a trivial one anyway. The important question is what behaviour should society permit, and which should it forbid.
 
Forget 'right' and 'wrong' and consider only objective 'harmful' and 'harmless'. If something visibly and actually harms other people then it should be criminalised, not because it is 'wrong' but because it is harmful. If it doesn't, it shouldn't be criminalised, but not because it is 'right'.
 
If you then feel it is right to break the law then go ahead, but expect to be punished for it and don't claim justification, because your conscience does not justify your action. The same applies if you feel it is 'wrong' to follow the law. Follow your conscience and take the punishment.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2008 at 18:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

 

Quote "Good in a relgion is that it says follow your conscience, not what a religion dictates!"

and Omar al Hashim replied:

Quote I don't think any religion says follow your conscience. Your conscience may be mislead by the devil.

 

 
I don't have a conscience, so I guess I can't be mislead by the devil. Though it's going to make following it a bugger.
 
 


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http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 08:04


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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 08:45
Naturally few religions will tell you to follow your conscience, because that could eventually lead you to conclusions that run contrary to the doctrine. Rather they tend to say "do whatever it says in this book and please don't think too much about it".

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Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I said in http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25688 - this thread :


Quote "Good in a relgion is that it says follow your conscience, not what a religion dictates!"


and Omar al Hashim replied:


Quote I don't think any religion says follow your conscience. Your conscience may be mislead by the devil.


Do you agree with him?


"Follow the true religion which is your conscience (your godly nature), nothing can change it, that is the eternal and stable Religion (has ever existed) but most people don't know it!" (Quran 30:30)



I try to stay in the middle but even Christianity teaches the heart is disceptive above all things. I can understand where he is coming from because as humans we can be easily controlled by our hormones, emotions and peer pressures or as I was taught in church; the flesh, the devil and the world. I just don't believe in one truth but there are many paths to Heaven or God; Jesus, Muhhammad, Buda etc. This goes against my upbringing, although, logically God sending people to Hell for not believing in this or that is silly. I cannot believe in a cruel god like that so maybe here I am thinking with my emotions-??. No offense to christians or Muslims! I do agree with many of the moral teachings of Christianity and I am sure many in Islam but I pick the chicken meat from the bones and decide what is true for me. I read the Bible sometimes also the Qu'ran but I am open to other Holy books as well. I love Greek philosophy which really makes you think or at least in my opinion. I know little about buda but we did study him in a class titled the four perspectives at Walla Walla community College.

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Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.


Posted By: truth of the matter
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 19:01
I agree, I truly think that pure oneness with their God is obtained by finding it in your deepest conscience. Not to be confused with your living consciousness. I beleive that in what Omar al Hashim is referfing to, could be the devil in your conscience of mind, not soul. I think that if there is a soul that it would be created by one's God. The mind being more of a tool for the body, unlike the soul, can be manipilated be the devil. Norman Mailer wrote about the mind being the battlefield between God and the devil. That is where he wrote their influence was deeded out on your actions. That all being said, I beleive that true religion is not one inparticular religion. I think that if as Omar al Hashim wrote the devil can affect the conscience, which everyone has, than religion who is made by man could be influenced somewhat by the devil as well then.

   I beleive that, because since the begining of mankind, man has held the question,"why are we here and who created us" Religion is something that evolved, from early forms of people worshiping a God or in cases several Gods. People evolved and always had a God ideology. When man evolved with his beleifs and stories of the Gods,prophets etc.. it eventually evolved into religion. As man evolved more, religion evoled right along side of it, for man never left religion,religion never left man. I belive this why it is hard to point out the true religion, it has changed and segregated to thousands of types of ideology,beleifs,rituals,etc..

I always say it's like that game in school, where you would start a sentance and wisper it to every kid in the classroom, untill it got to the last person and it alway was toatally different than the original sentance. Through time religion and beliefs always fed mankind with something alot of people need. That being said I don't know what the true religion is and the TRUTH OF THE MATTER no one does. Every religion would have you beleive their religion is the true religion.

   I beleive it is best to be a good person( no one is perfect remind you), help others,try to do a majority of good for the world,have a strong inner-soul conscience of a stronger power than us, and live peacefull lives. It upsets me when a person like me who is not a religios person, yet studies theology and tries to live a good life,keeps my mind open to beleifs and other peoples religion, yet is considered as less significant in someone elses God's eyes than them, even if they are a worse human being than me. Remember Bush and Cheyney are christians and look what they have done.

In my opinion if their is a God/Gods, He/She will judge them on the content of their character, not on the content of their religion.





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m.d.h.m.


Posted By: Donasin
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 19:40
The true 'religion' is one that does not preach itself as the lone true religion.

A analogy I once heard goes something like this: There is but one moon as there is truth yet many eyes look upon that moon from different view points as such there are many ways to reach the true.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 20:52
Worship is nothing but service of God's creatures (helping others, maintaining the nature, ...)
Not wasting time in mosques, churches or synagogues (houses of worship)
Sa'di


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 14:46
I think Rumi had the right sentiment when he said he is not a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc, etc....he said he loves God.
 
 
 
 
 


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Kermanji
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 16:26
Zaratostranismmmmmmm


Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2009 at 05:35
Why not Pastafarianism?

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Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2009 at 05:50
Originally posted by Siege Tower Siege Tower wrote:

Why not Pastafarianism?
Good idea

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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2009 at 06:21
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

Because some have been indoctrinated with man-made precepts, or have some mental disorders.


So man is stronger than god? And whats this "mental disorder" all about? Doesnt god have total control? Yet am I to believe that he is limited both by propaganda and genetic deficiencies? 


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2009 at 07:24
God have total control but human nature is very fragile, and I'm talking about mind. The mind (or the personality) is a mechanism that is built starting from nothing during the life time and this mechanism in most cases (at most people) is affected by wrong understanding of things.

God permanently try to help and guide people but not in a way that can affect their free will and dignity, so He is discreet in His actions and for that reason some think that He doesn't exist.

He is not limited by fake doctrines (as are most if not all religions), they have role in His general plan for humanity.


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Posted By: truth of the matter
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 17:05
I think that there can't be a "one and true religion". If you really want to understand and interpret theology, you must, like everything, start at the begining. when you say, when where the first civilizations, and what was their thoughts and ideology on theology. People, since the time they had cognitive minds had some beleifs on a God, or Godess and at times,even several deities. The first real civilization was Sumeria at around 5300bc to 2000bc. Egypt at around 3500bc. Now, many early civilizations are now gathering points for discussions on God and religion. What is surprising is these civilizations had alot of things in common, way too many to get into, but enough to make you really think. As time and people migrated the same central beleifs, yet small changes in ideology changed, there is still focul points. I beleive as you get further away from are beginings, they further from the truth, we may become. I wish people could unite in a cause to respect all religions and beleifs in a respectable level. The Mind Evolves, The Man Evolves, The Religion Evolves.

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m.d.h.m.


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 17:32
If God exists He is alive and didn't stop the revelation thousands years ago. Each of us can receive inspiration and revelation directly from Him and this is the true religion: the direct relation of every person with God. But fancy, self-delusion are almost inevitable so you must have some repers in distinguishing what is false and what is true in your mystic experiences. You must study diverse religions and take what is useful, not in the sense that is God's word but using those traditions in a techical way.


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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 21:48
No religion only God.
Deisim is the answer i think ;)


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DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !


Posted By: Jallaludin Akbar
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 22:48
The only true religion is truth Shocked


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"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-Mahatma Gandhi



Posted By: Goocheslamb
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 17:16

one thing i dont understand is why are religious people often extremists??? why do they want to kill in the name of religion? why do they want to force their beliefs on others?



Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 17:53

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Naturally few religions will tell you to follow your conscience, because that could eventually lead you to conclusions that run contrary to the doctrine. Rather they tend to say "do whatever it says in this book and please don't think too much about it".

Naturally.
 
Yes, they do tell us that in our religious re-education camps. But it isn't just the fact that our thoughts might run contrary to doctrine -- it's more that our tiny, religion-prone brains start to hurt if we think too hard about anything.
 
Originally posted by Donasin Donasin wrote:

The true 'religion' is one that does not preach itself as the lone true religion.

A analogy I once heard goes something like this: There is but one moon as there is truth yet many eyes look upon that moon from different view points as such there are many ways to reach the true.
 
Really? I always heard that it ran thus: "You will always have luck in your personal affairs," and I got a chinese vocabulary lesson and lottery numbers with mine. You got ripped off.
 
Originally posted by Goocheslamb Goocheslamb wrote:

One thing i dont understand is why are religious people often extremists??? why do they want to kill in the name of religion? why do they want to force their beliefs on others?
 
Because we derive sick pleasure from the pain of others. The whole charity thing is just a cover concealing the true, sadistic nature of our faith. We sacrifice puppies -- cute puppies -- on dark altars, not to satisfy our evil gods, but rather just for the fun of watching them suffer.
 
All that aside, I am glad we can reduce our discussion of what is a very serious subject to trite little slogans, childishly simplistic criticisms, and stereotypes; after all, we wouldn't want to strain our minds doing any of that tiresome thinking that Reginmund was talking about. My only question is, isn't there a coffee shop around where we could meet some disenchanted, angsty high-school kids to discuss this with?
 
Wink
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 18:33
Originally posted by Goocheslamb Goocheslamb wrote:

one thing i dont understand is why are religious people often extremists??? why do they want to kill in the name of religion? why do they want to force their beliefs on others?
Usually religious people are not extremists. Extremism exists among secular people as well.  Historically, religious extremists are no more likely to commit acts of violence than secular extremists.
Originally posted by Goocheslamb Goocheslamb wrote:

why do they want to force their beliefs on others?
Control, a desire to return to a real or imagined "glory" period, or a psychological need to bully (some times religious beliefs are simply a pretense for an individual to have a "license" to bully). 
 
Secular extremists use many of the same reasons except that instead of a return to the "glory" period, secular extremists often want to progress to an imagined "glory" period such as a "workers paradise".  


Posted By: truth of the matter
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2009 at 00:49
That is a good question. Why are people so extreme, and to the point of using drastic measures,in their theolocigal beleifs? These people have flooded history on so many levels.The Jewish and Christians, Christian and Muslims, Jewish and Muslims, etc.. Whether it's the Spanish Inquisition, the differances in Sunni and Shi'ite, the whole lot. People in my eyes, who not only judge, but would kill or die for a religious beleif is rediculous. The Holy scriptures in many cases, seems to promote this type of ignorance, which is absurd enough. The bible talks about killing the people of differant beleifs, so why do you think over-emphasising these beleifs, brings about a "extremist" ideaology? In my opinion, people evolved with time and segregated, as did religion, so if you would not judge a person of differant race or culture, why would you judge their believes in religion. These people who judge have never studied theology, only their beleifs and what was appointed to them. People judge without studying ancient religions, other beleifs, or anything that could stimulate their mind in order to have a open, and loving mind towards religion.

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m.d.h.m.


Posted By: GökTürk
Date Posted: 21-May-2009 at 20:45
I think every nation's true religion is their ancient religion.Because  the culture of a nation which believe in other nation's religion has been changed and vanished(For example
ancient american,egyptian,central asian nomadic cultures..).Older religion shows the real culture of the nations.That's my thought.

I love Tengrism & Shamanism. Wink


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TENGRİ TEG TENGRİDE BOLMIŞ TÜRK BİLGE KAĞAN-
TURK WISE KHAN WHO BECAME IN SKY LIKE SKY-GOD
---
tengir ordo(people of Tengri-God-)                 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 16:07
And then we have the notion that we all are divine, we just have to discover it, or as Di Leva puts it in his song: Everyone Is Jesus:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9qYXbN3kyw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9qYXbN3kyw



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