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need advice about martial arts

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Topic: need advice about martial arts
Posted By: Batu
Subject: need advice about martial arts
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 19:25
  I am planning to do some sports this year,and I wanted the sports I will do to be some kind of martial arts.
  I've tried taekwondo before,which was good for nothing,and I got my a*s kicked(my tournament didnt last for long).And it  totally useless in the streets.
  I heard that karate is the same,I have seen some videos about judo,which seems good but not that effective.
  Aikido,was the best martial arts I encountred,but I want to get in shape aswell and aikido is not suitable for this.
  I will probably go on for Wing Tsun or Wushu.They say wing tsun is better but wushu or kung fu looks more entertaining(I am nowadays watching the anime series "Avatar",and I like kung fu movies)
  I want to see some action,to do some sports,and kick some a*s.
    Anyways,which one(I will be pleased to see you add other martial arts styles) should I go for?


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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )



Replies:
Posted By: Gargoyle
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 19:38

Hello Batu...

Why don't you try SUMO?????

I will describe a few of the benefits for you...

1. You get to eat ANYTHING you want...

2. You get to wear a sexy G-string...

3. Every now and then you demonstrate your strength and manliness in front of an enthusiastic audience who cheer for you...

4. You get to slap and push other big guys around a ring... very masculine and exciting...

5. Japanese women will love you...

6. When you retire you can come and live in a country like Australia and claim a disability pension...

I hope this helps...


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Jugo de sandia es muy bueno!


Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 22:04
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

  I am planning to do some sports this year,and I wanted the sports I will do to be some kind of martial arts.
  I've tried taekwondo before,which was good for nothing,and I got my a*s kicked(my tournament didnt last for long).And it  totally useless in the streets.
  I heard that karate is the same,I have seen some videos about judo,which seems good but not that effective.
  Aikido,was the best martial arts I encountred,but I want to get in shape aswell and aikido is not suitable for this.
  I will probably go on for Wing Tsun or Wushu.They say wing tsun is better but wushu or kung fu looks more entertaining(I am nowadays watching the anime series "Avatar",and I like kung fu movies)
  I want to see some action,to do some sports,and kick some a*s.
    Anyways,which one(I will be pleased to see you add other martial arts styles) should I go for?
 
I did Judo for about 3 years and Hapkido(Korean Aikido) for about a year and half in my early teens. 
 
Taekwondo does get bad wrap for being impractical in the 'streets'.    I do agree that Taekwondo is very weak on fist strikes and almost no submission(choking or joint locking) game AFAIK.   But as a Korean and in defense of Taekwondo, I do believe it has the most powerful kicking techniques.   Taekwondo's spinning back kick is supposedly the most powerful in martial arts except the Muay Thai knee kick(but you do have to pull down your opponents neck for the knee kick to be that powerful.  Also some of the Taekwondo kicks need some open space to generate that power which make them impractical in certain crowded or small spaces.    But having said that if it's so impractical, then why it is loved by U.S armed forces, especially the U.S. Marine Corps, the ones who has to be 'practical' at all cost?  Yes, those kicks are powerful , fast and deadly.   To make it more 'practical', practice more.   Taekwondo also emphasizes on getting in shape but that is base on who teaches you and how much time you can work on it.  If you are just taking a class for a couple days in a week I don't think you will see much improvement anytime soon.  Taekwondo also has some routines that you punch or kick hard surfaces over and over to make you bone dense for your fists and shin.
 
Judo and Taekwondo are both Olympic events, so they teach much of the tournament' version which make them even more impractical in the 'streets'.  Judo also has many Aikido/Hapkido, Jujitsu like Choking, Joint Locking submission game but most of the time you see the Olympic style throwing moves which makes Judo look one dimensional.   Again it's all base on who teaches you and how committed you are. 
 
I don't wanna sound like Mr. Miyagi but if you are just looking to 'kick some a$$', I don't think you will gain much no matter what discipline you choose.  I know you probably don't mean literally 'kicking a$$ in the streets'.  I know you meant more like kicking a$$ in practice sparring and tournaments.  Which is fun, no doubt.  But win or lose, it's more about gaining confidence that you understand better about your own mind and body, and gain  better control of it as you practice more.  God, that sounded soooo corny.  You know What I meant say though......  


-------------
I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself.
- from 'Kundun'

www.ted.com


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 22:22
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

  I am planning to do some sports this year,and I wanted the sports I will do to be some kind of martial arts.
  I've tried taekwondo before,which was good for nothing,and I got my a*s kicked(my tournament didnt last for long).And it  totally useless in the streets.
  I heard that karate is the same,I have seen some videos about judo,which seems good but not that effective.
  Aikido,was the best martial arts I encountred,but I want to get in shape aswell and aikido is not suitable for this.
  I will probably go on for Wing Tsun or Wushu.They say wing tsun is better but wushu or kung fu looks more entertaining(I am nowadays watching the anime series "Avatar",and I like kung fu movies)
  I want to see some action,to do some sports,and kick some a*s.
    Anyways,which one(I will be pleased to see you add other martial arts styles) should I go for?
 
If you want an effective H2H style, try Muay Thai.
 
If you live in a dangerous area, buy yourself a walking stick and learn Jodo.
 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2008 at 11:08
If you live in a dangerous area, move.

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2008 at 14:07
Batu, as you have already done a martial art, I am sure your teachers must have told you the all important rule: Once you get good at it, you are not ever allowed to use it anymore outside of training. With ability comes responsibility. Choosing a sport based on the damage you can do to others on the street is absurd.

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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2008 at 15:55
why the bad press about Taekwondo? The best martial arts ever!
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: hkdharmon
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2008 at 23:58
Yes, I agree. if you are in danger, move. H2H combat is something you only engage in if you have NO OTHER CHOICE. You have another choice, move to a safer area and learn to difuse conflict. The most basic skill involved in self defense is"running away". What do you have to prove?
However, choose a martial art based on what you would enjoy practicing, not on how (allegedly) effective it is on the street. If it is a very effective art, but you never practice because it is no fun, it is useless.
A small amount of inferior knowledge is superior to a complete lack of superior knowledge.
www dot greatjujitsustuff dot com


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 16:30

I dont have to learn how to fight to survive,I am not joining "the Foreign Legion" either.. I just want to have some fun,do some sports etc.



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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 18:11
Read 'The Book of Five Rings'. Everything you need is there. 

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There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 18:37
I understood you, Batu.  Unless you want be a MMA inspired bar brawler, I know you meant just 'kicking a$$' in practice sparrings and tournaments, which is like I said earlier, fun no doubt. 
 
And I don't agree with the notion that you can or should just walk away from every confrontational situations.  There is a time and place and a cause that you should stand your ground.  For self-defense purposes, I believe you can walk away from almost every situations.  But in case of defending someone else who can't defend themselves, I don't think you should just walk away every time.  Example, you walk out of the local supermarket, walking toward your car in dim lit parking lot, and you spot a couple of teenage  punks(I don't mean Punk rockers) mugging an old lady.  What do you do?   Of course here in U.S. the equation is lot different because those teenage punks might have guns.  
 
I think the purpose of martial arts more than just attaining ability to fight.  I think more ideal goal of a martial art practitioner is to attain the ability to compose yourself not just physically but also mentally, emotionally, spiritually.  And also to develop your sense of justice and balance, and apply that in everything you do.  You can diffuse many confrontational situations with what you say, how you say, or how you posture yourself(how you sit, how you stand, how you walk).   The sense of balance one needs for a spinning back kick can be applied to finding that sense of balance in between two arguing friends and so on......  Well, until then 'Wax on and Wax off', brother!  "Miyagi has a hope you, Danyosan".
 
There is an old Korean saying which loosely translates into something like, "The empty wagon always rattles louder, (you can hear it coming miles away)". 
 
P.S.  Thanks Al Jassas, your kind words for Taekwondo warmed my heart.
 
P.P.S.  Speaking of the Foreign Legion, anyone here familiar with Savate?
 
Human Weapon: Savate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95s54u0V_lw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95s54u0V_lw


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I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself.
- from 'Kundun'

www.ted.com


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 19:06

If you want to learn how to fight, but not just the useless fancy moves. Study boxing-the most easy and effective martial art and Muay Thai. Those will teach you how to fight and you will much more confident only after one month of studying those.

Savate and Kick-boxing are also fine.

If you want to be a complete fighter you'll need some grappling skills as well in the future. So, you can study any kind of wrestling, though free style wrestling perhaps would be the most practical. And also in the end you'll need to get some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

However, from my experience and observations most of the fight are very fast and usually you use your fists only. So, for the beginning boxing will complitely suffice.
Later you can add your basic foundation with Muay-Thai.
 
Karate, Taekwondo, Wushu, Aikido etc. are good ways to keep yourself in shape but they are complitely useless on the street unless you face some untrained, physically not fit oponents.
 
Numerous Mixed Martial Arts competitions like UFC and Pride in Japan proved the dominance of good old boxing and wrestling over all fancy and exotic martial arts.
 
An absolute world Mixed Martial Arts champion Russian Approve, Fedor Emelianenko has its basic training in Sambo (Russian form of Judo wrestling) boxing and also some complimentary skills of Muay Thai (Dutch school)-that's all you need to be succesful on the street.
 
The formula is very easy the simpler Martial Art is the more effective it works on the street.
 
A short video from one gym in Russia to substitute my words. Karatekas have good flexibility but they have no idea how to kick ass...Smile
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxaNAm_fWQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxaNAm_fWQ
 
Taekwondo practitioner get owned by a Muay Thai fighter
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcoprF6_FOM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcoprF6_FOM


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 19:28
KenpoClap is an EXCELLENT!!!! martial art.

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 19:37
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Karate, Taekwondo, Wushu, Aikido etc. are good ways to keep yourself in shape but they are complitely useless on the street unless you face some untrained, physically not fit oponents.
 

Then why Karate was banned in Soviet Union? As you claim it is useless in real situations.

Only some spetznaz or KGB agents could get training in that martial art.


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 19:49

It was banned for the political reasons.

People in the SU were free to train in boxing, sambo and wrestling which were much more practical.
 
KGB never trained in karate they have been training in so called "combat sambo."
 
Spetznaz has been trained in so called "hand-to-hand combat" (rukopashnyi boi) it has some elements which look similar to karate but it's not karate.
 
The back bone of the Soviet special forces starting from the 30th was Sambo/Combat sambo.
 
The creator of Russian Sambo, Vasili Oshepkov was an amazing person, he grew up in Japan and was one of the very few Westerners who graduated from Kodo-kan the famous Judo dojo. His skills were noted by Kano Jigoro, the creator of Judo himself.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 04:12

Generally, there is no lousy MA, only lousy MA teachers and MA students.

What matters is the particular school (as in actual dojo, or teacher), not the form of MA.
 
If you want something to have a good time sparring in the arena, choose a school where the students spend a lot of time sparring in the arena.
 
If you want something useful in the street, go and learn in the street.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 04:33
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

If you want to learn how to fight, but not just the useless fancy moves. Study boxing-the most easy and effective martial art
I agree, I am a big fan of recreational boxing. The cardiovascular training was excellent and there were no belt rankings to worry about. 
 
As a side note, MMA developed a bad reputation where I used to live. Some of the local instructors actively encouraged needless aggression on the streets. Their students then provoked avoidable fights with often unskilled opponents, some of whom were seriously hurt.  


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 04:46
Nice topic here, Batu...

Others have said most of the "it's about confidence, etc." stuff that's the most important, so I'll settle for an overview of the martial arts I actually know something about.

Aikido:

Aikido can be effective. Joint locks and atemi, mainly. The chief problems; it's often not taught to be effective, and any locking/grappling art takes a long time to get used to, and even longer to be good at. I've found ikkyo and yonkyo to be reasonably effective (in real life, I'm a little bit of a martial arts freak...) but you have have studied for a long time learning the..."Right"...way (for you) to get them to work.

Taekwando:

Good kicks, and you can get crazy fit doing it--excellent cardio, and definitely a certain amount of strength training. It was originally adopted to fight enemies on horseback, so a lot of high moves which CAN be effective--they just need lots of time, lots of effort, and knowing when and how to apply them.

Brazilian jujitsu:

Good groundwork. It's fun. It's rough. It's hard to get used to locking and holding, like I said. My only gripe with BJJ is that it has no real means of dealing with multiple opponents--which is one part of martial arts I really like, even if it's disturbingly hard.

Wing tsun:

Wing tsun is a very nice striking art. It requires a lot of finesse, speed, control, and co-ordination. And, thus, it develops those aspects of your physical capabilities.

Wushu:

"Wushu" is a broad term for chinese martial arts. It can be sport-focused, with the emphasis on forms, flashiness, and fun. Or it can be very traditional, with the emphasis on, basically, getting stronger, faster, tougher, more skilled, and with a repotoire of incredibly effective techniques. Matter of personal preference;either can be great. Also a matter of style; there are LOTS of styles of Wushu. Fujian White Crane is in some ways similar to Wing tsun--lots of finesse and control. There are both Northern and Southern Praying Mantis styles, each with it's own distinctions. There is Monkey Kung fu, unpredictable and complex. And those are just the beginning...

Capoeira:

Capoeira is a brazilian martial art with the emphasis on kicks, take-downs, reading body language, unpredictability, and dodging rather than flat-out blocking. It can be effective, although there are certain techniques that are only there for training/display purposes. It comes in three varieties; Angola, which is closer to the ground and in which the emphasis is on clever planning, Regional, in which the emphasis is on speed, reflexes, and athletic ability, and contemporeana, a broad term denoting schools which seek to combine the best of both main styles. It is an EXTREMELY good workout, too; by twenty minutes into the first class, you will feel the strain.

...well, it depends on the teacher, but that was how it was for me--and i'm in pretty good shape.

Also, there are lots more: Judo, Muay Thai, Sambo, Savate, Sumo, Kenpo, Hapkido, Jeet Kune Do, Krav Maga, Silat, Eskrima....

It's up to you, though. Hope you find something to your liking!





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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:16
Originally posted by snowybeagle snowybeagle wrote:

 
If you want something useful in the street, go and learn in the street.
 
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Rock on, brother, rock on!
 
EDIT: TheARRGH, great post.  I don't think I can add anything to that.  Some of those high Taekwondo kicks are designed to fight enemies on horse back?  I never thought about them that way.  That makes a lot of sense though.
 
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8qI6LsV5_-c&feature=related - http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8qI6LsV5_-c&feature=related  


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I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself.
- from 'Kundun'

www.ted.com


Posted By: raygun
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:52

I read that the top 3 martial arts suitable for the street are: Boxing, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu.

But on the street anything goes; punching, bitting, bottles, bricks, etc.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:59
Originally posted by raygun raygun wrote:

I read that the top 3 martial arts suitable for the street are: Boxing, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu.

But on the street anything goes; punching, bitting, bottles, bricks, etc.


There is no "martial art suitable for the street."

What there ARE are martial arts with a more brutally utilitarian set of techniques.

Martial arts can train you to be fast, strong, resilient, and skilled. But a real conflict requires various things.

It requires physical ability--something almost any martial art can train, if you're good at learning.

It requires a psychological willingness to do anything--read, ANYTHING--that is necessary to survive and protect yourself and others (although survival first, obviously), and do it without hesitation or mercy. That is extremely important--probably MORE important than the physical side--and there is NO martial art WHATSOEVER that can teach it.

And it requires sheer good luck.

And that is not something that any martial art can teach either.




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: raygun
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 06:45
jgvuj ibkoou kjmo


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 07:25
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:

Nice topic here, Batu...

Others have said most of the "it's about confidence, etc." stuff that's the most important, so I'll settle for an overview of the martial arts I actually know something about.

Aikido:

Aikido can be effective. Joint locks and atemi, mainly. The chief problems; it's often not taught to be effective, and any locking/grappling art takes a long time to get used to, and even longer to be good at. I've found ikkyo and yonkyo to be reasonably effective (in real life, I'm a little bit of a martial arts freak...) but you have have studied for a long time learning the..."Right"...way (for you) to get them to work.

Taekwando:

Good kicks, and you can get crazy fit doing it--excellent cardio, and definitely a certain amount of strength training. It was originally adopted to fight enemies on horseback, so a lot of high moves which CAN be effective--they just need lots of time, lots of effort, and knowing when and how to apply them.

Brazilian jujitsu:

Good groundwork. It's fun. It's rough. It's hard to get used to locking and holding, like I said. My only gripe with BJJ is that it has no real means of dealing with multiple opponents--which is one part of martial arts I really like, even if it's disturbingly hard.

Wing tsun:

Wing tsun is a very nice striking art. It requires a lot of finesse, speed, control, and co-ordination. And, thus, it develops those aspects of your physical capabilities.

Wushu:

"Wushu" is a broad term for chinese martial arts. It can be sport-focused, with the emphasis on forms, flashiness, and fun. Or it can be very traditional, with the emphasis on, basically, getting stronger, faster, tougher, more skilled, and with a repotoire of incredibly effective techniques. Matter of personal preference;either can be great. Also a matter of style; there are LOTS of styles of Wushu. Fujian White Crane is in some ways similar to Wing tsun--lots of finesse and control. There are both Northern and Southern Praying Mantis styles, each with it's own distinctions. There is Monkey Kung fu, unpredictable and complex. And those are just the beginning...

Capoeira:

Capoeira is a brazilian martial art with the emphasis on kicks, take-downs, reading body language, unpredictability, and dodging rather than flat-out blocking. It can be effective, although there are certain techniques that are only there for training/display purposes. It comes in three varieties; Angola, which is closer to the ground and in which the emphasis is on clever planning, Regional, in which the emphasis is on speed, reflexes, and athletic ability, and contemporeana, a broad term denoting schools which seek to combine the best of both main styles. It is an EXTREMELY good workout, too; by twenty minutes into the first class, you will feel the strain.

...well, it depends on the teacher, but that was how it was for me--and i'm in pretty good shape.

 
All those Martial arts are complitely useless for real fighting except Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu which in fact has very few things in common in the other MA listed.
 
Aikido pracitioners never tried to challenge other martial artists emphasizing that physical fight is not important. Some styles of Aikodo though like Yoshinkan have some effective aspects but it should be trained in combination with striking techniques.
 
Sole Taiekwondo pracitioners were many times badly beaten  by Kick-boxers, boxers and thai-boxers, though Taekwondo gives excellent physical shape and basis on which you can build necessary fighting skills like Thai boxing. However, Taekwondo techniques per se are useless on the street.
 
Wushu is a very broad term indeed, however, again traditional wushu stules are complitely useless for the real fight. In the 1960th matches with Muay Thai pracitioners proved complete inefficiency of traditional Wushu styles. Several famous masters were knocked-out  in some seconds. This was a very humiliating experience which made Chinese to rethink complitely their attitude to MA. China developed it's own style of Thai Boxing which is called Sanshoudao this is indeed a very effective martial style of hand to hand combat, however it actually has much more in common with kick boxing and Muay Thai rather than with traditional Wushu/Gongfu.
 
Wingtsun is the same animal as Wushu.
 
Capoeira is again ineffective but gives you an excellent physical shape.
 
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a very effective technique of ground wrestling perhaps the best in the world. It's the basis of the training of many of the famous athletes in MMA competions. It doesn't have much in common with the other MA mentioned above. The shortcoming of BJJ is the lack of striking and kicking techniques you can't be a good MMA fighter nowdays without good boxing and kickboxing supplement. So, those BJJ practioners who take part in MMA competition now also hevily train in boxing and kick boxing/muay thai.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 12:11
what about Judo? it looks like brazilian jujutsu;

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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 16:29
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

 All those Martial arts are complitely useless for real fighting


...Really? tried them yourself?

Many of these arts have techniques which are very difficult--sometimes near impossible--to use in combat. That is not the same thing as "useless." Aikido has many joint locks which are perfectly acceptable; taekwando can be impractical, but it has quite a few kicks that, delivered at the correct time, and with enough skill, can work quite well. Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight. Wushu is an incredibly broad term, and like I said, a lot of Wushu nowadays is mostly sport-oriented--but try walking into the Shaolin temple and attacking one of the monks. What they do is Wushu too, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to test whether they can actually fight or not.
Capoeira is by no means useless; it's just that it requires a lot of skill to pull off correctly. It has some very good kicks, and the take-downs are excellent. Moreover, capoeira originated as a method of combat. Most Mestres, a long time ago, were considered incredibly dangerous, and sometimes quite willing to kill. That's changed a bit, but few of them are useless in a fight.

Saying that there is such a thing as a useless martial art in a real fight betrays a lack of understanding of real fighting. A Muay Thai combatant, in a real fight, on the street, with no rules, does not go into a Muay Thai stance and use specific Muay Thai techniques. He uses whatever he can find, from wherever he can find it, in order to survive.

That is something that any martial artist can do, because that depends largely on the individual rather than the art. There is no such thing as a specific martial art in a real fight--there's just survival. Assuming your style makes all--or even most--of the difference is laughable.

MMA fights are deceptive; it looks like real fighting, sure. But in MMA, there are rules. Also in MMA, you don't have to contend with the enemy's friend circling around behind you to hit you with the sharp edge of a broken bottle. Pinning someone to the ground is great against one person, but very bad when you're dealing with more than that. If you stay still in a fight against numbers, you've lost.

Any "Match" is useless to discover which "style" is better. it purely and simply demonstrates which COMBATANT is better--in a predictable environment with rules and no bricks, bottles, allies, etc.

ALL a martial art does for you, on the street, is give you physical conditioning and coordination and a general way of moving. That's it. There's no martial art on the street, there's just survival based on whatever you can improvise and throw together. Which is, I say it again, an INDIVIDUAL characteristic.

Style isn't really important compared to individual psychology, creativity, ruthlessness, etc. It'd be awfully convenient if style made all the difference, but it doesn't. Some, perhaps, but a lot less than individual characteristics and sheer luck.






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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Gargoyle
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 18:47

Originally posted by snowybeagle snowybeagle wrote:

If you want something useful in the street, go and learn in the street.


Exactly right snowybeagle!!!

While living in Honduras recently Gargoyle learned that he needed something more "useful" than martial arts in the streets there... so he bought himself a Colt Python...

Gargoyle found this was especially very useful in Tegucigalpa and San Pedro Sula after dark... and when traveling through the region of Olancho... (it's like the wild west over there!!!)

Unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to waste a few punks... next time perhaps???

Although, there were a couple of hairy moments when I reached for it...

Ummmmmmm... when Gargoyle was a teenager he used to train in the Shito-Ryu style of Karate... I remember it was a great dicipline to learn, I became fit and the sparring sessions were alot of FUN!!!

Every martial art has it's strengths and weaknesses...

SUMO FOREVER!!!!!





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Jugo de sandia es muy bueno!


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 18:55
Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:


While living in Honduras recently Gargoyle learned that he needed something more "useful" than martial arts in the streets there... so he bought himself a Colt Python...


How did Gargoyle learn this?

Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:


Although, there were a couple of hairy moments when I reached for it...


Uh-oh...what happened, if I might ask?


Quote
Every martial art has it's strengths and weaknesses...


I really wish the rest of the world shared that opinion.








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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Gargoyle
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:

How did Gargoyle learn this?


After reading Honduran newspapers and watching the news reports on TV and seeing all the weaponry on display in the streets of Honduran cities... I felt a little bit inadequate and lonely...

I felt safer carrying one...

Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:

Uh-oh...what happened, if I might ask?


Ummmmmmmm... it's nothing to bragg about... let's just say that Gargoyle had a difference of opinion with a few other people and he was very fortunate he had his Revolver with him...





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Jugo de sandia es muy bueno!


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 19:40
Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:


Ummmmmmmm... I don't feel comfortable reliving these moments... and it's nothing to bragg about... let's just say that Gargoyle had a difference of opinion with a few other people and it was very fortunate he had his Colt with him...


Fair enough. I can understand not wanting to discuss it.




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 19:51
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:


...Really? tried them yourself?

Many of these arts have techniques which are very difficult--sometimes near impossible--to use in combat. That is not the same thing as "useless." Aikido has many joint locks which are perfectly acceptable; taekwando can be impractical, but it has quite a few kicks that, delivered at the correct time, and with enough skill, can work quite well. Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight. Wushu is an incredibly broad term, and like I said, a lot of Wushu nowadays is mostly sport-oriented--but try walking into the Shaolin temple and attacking one of the monks. What they do is Wushu too, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to test whether they can actually fight or not.
Capoeira is by no means useless; it's just that it requires a lot of skill to pull off correctly. It has some very good kicks, and the take-downs are excellent. Moreover, capoeira originated as a method of combat. Most Mestres, a long time ago, were considered incredibly dangerous, and sometimes quite willing to kill. That's changed a bit, but few of them are useless in a fight.

Saying that there is such a thing as a useless martial art in a real fight betrays a lack of understanding of real fighting. A Muay Thai combatant, in a real fight, on the street, with no rules, does not go into a Muay Thai stance and use specific Muay Thai techniques. He uses whatever he can find, from wherever he can find it, in order to survive.

That is something that any martial artist can do, because that depends largely on the individual rather than the art. There is no such thing as a specific martial art in a real fight--there's just survival. Assuming your style makes all--or even most--of the difference is laughable.

MMA fights are deceptive; it looks like real fighting, sure. But in MMA, there are rules. Also in MMA, you don't have to contend with the enemy's friend circling around behind you to hit you with the sharp edge of a broken bottle. Pinning someone to the ground is great against one person, but very bad when you're dealing with more than that. If you stay still in a fight against numbers, you've lost.

Any "Match" is useless to discover which "style" is better. it purely and simply demonstrates which COMBATANT is better--in a predictable environment with rules and no bricks, bottles, allies, etc.

ALL a martial art does for you, on the street, is give you physical conditioning and coordination and a general way of moving. That's it. There's no martial art on the street, there's just survival based on whatever you can improvise and throw together. Which is, I say it again, an INDIVIDUAL characteristic.

Style isn't really important compared to individual psychology, creativity, ruthlessness, etc. Deal with it.
 
Yes. I tried all the "arts" you listed even Capoeiro.Smile Of course I didn't do each of them for many years, but I have at leat general understanding of what they are about.
I've been a witness to humiliating experiences of "traditional martial arts masters" that's why I came to think like I think now. For example, I saw how "Wushu champion of Europe" got beaten by a low class boxer. They guy quited wushu after that, he is now a professional Muay Thai fighter and a master of boxing. Smile
 
You're incorrect if you think that the techniques aren't important and MA gives you only conditioning. Techniques are very important if you want to protect yourself.
Most of the fights on the street resemble boxing match with punches thrown in the head and body some times it ends in "wrestling" on the ground.
You might be a black belt in aikido, but if you can't protect your head and can't hold punches, you'll most likely be knocked out without even realizing what's going on... Simply because you're untrained for this kind of "fight."
Most of those MA for example you listed had weird basic stances and peope who practice it are simply get lost when they are punched in the head with simple straight jabs.
Of course MMA, boxing and Muay Thai are not 100% "real street" but they are much closer to the real street than aikido or wingtsun or taekwondo.
Boxing and Muay Thai is 100% training of your punching and striking power and defences against those strike and punches. Only most effective and tested techniques are used. Everything is easy, simple and straight forward.
You'll never have a real sparring in Aikido in most of the others traditional MA you'll spend most of the time on polishing your correct stance, basic moves etc. may be only 10% in real sparring. It won't prepare you for the real fight on the street unless you face some untrained person in the physical conditions inferior to yours.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 20:00
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

what about Judo? it looks like brazilian jujutsu;
 
Good observation. Smile
In fact, Brazilian jiujitsu has its origins in judo. A Japanese master trained the members of Brazilian Gracie family in the art of judo which they later developed into Brazilian jiujitsu.
 
The difference of Brazilian jiujitsu is that they emphasize ground wrestling or "parterre" as it called in French. So,it's like to guys are lying on the ground and wrestle there. Brazilian jiujitsu guys are always trying to bring the fight on the ground where they always will be victorious even against the bigger opponents.
 
So, the main aim of a Brazilian jiujitsu guy is to get to the ground as soon as possible, "fighting of feet" techinuqes are not emphasized.
 
By contrast in judo due to the rules you have only a limited time allowed for the parterre wrestling, so the most impotant aspect here is throws. Throws on feet are practiced again and again.
 
Judo teached you good wrestling techniques, balance and conditioning it's much more useful for a real wight then some  traditional "Bullshido." But you would need to supplement it with some good striking and punching if you want to be a complete fighter.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 21:08
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

You're incorrect if you think that the techniques aren't important and MA gives you only conditioning. Techniques are very important if you want to protect yourself.
Most of the fights on the street resemble boxing match with punches thrown in the head and body some times it ends in "wrestling" on the ground.
You might be a black belt in aikido, but if you can't protect your head and can't hold punches, you'll most likely be knocked out without even realizing what's going on... Simply because you're untrained for this kind of "fight."


I think that you're misunderstanding me a bit.

I'm not suggesting that these are excellent fighting arts; or that techniques make no difference. If I want to learn how to punch really well, I take up boxing. I want to learn to use elbows and knees, I'll try some Muay Thai. If I need some groundfighting skills, by all means I'll study some BJJ. Those ARE simple and straightforward arts which can be immensely practical and useful.

My point is more that there is no such thing as a useless style; there are people who are very bad at fighting. Arguing about style involves making sweeping generalizations about huge numbers of people, and there's little that's useful or accurate about that.

If you fight, you are not fighting a style. You are an individual, fighting an individual or group of individuals. If you fight a black belt in Aikido, it's quite possible that due to certain life experiences, [s]he has had more real fights than you; or that [s]he is just more creative than you and has learned enough about self-defense to punch more than grasp and keep his/her guard up; or has a weapon; or is simply more calm, collected, and clever than you. In a fight, the individual matters so much more than the style. Even though there are generalizations one can make that are fairly accurate, they are generalizations--they can't be relied upon in a fight, and so they aren't really that important. If we're talking about real fights, you don't rely on large and sweeping assumptions. Not if you want to survive. you simply act and react as needed--and they try to do the same. And that characteristic is not confined to particular styles.

Likewise, in a real fight you do not really use the actual martial art you train in--you use techniques that generally have no particular art associated with them, based on the situation. An Aikidoka, unless he is stupid, does not specifically try to use Aikido in a fight. Neither does a Muay Thai fighter set out to specifically fight "using Muay Thai."

An Aikidoka might try to get joint-locks IF HE CAN. a muay Thai fighter might use his knees and elbows more than most people would. But the Aikidoka AND the Muay Thai fighter would not be using Aikido and Muay Thai (unless they were much too wrapped up in style). They would, fundamentally, just be surviving as best they can. Discussions of style are not irrelevant, but they do miss the point to a certain extent. In matches and in real fights, it is a mistake to think that combatants are representatives of their respective arts. They are trying to win in one, and survive in the other, however they can, to the extent that it is possible, and they are doing it as individuals against individuals.

The best advice for any martial artist is; get what you want out of the art you study, but be more than just the style you take, no matter what.


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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: raygun
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 03:10

My advice is if you want to do Judo or BJJ, supplement ur training with boxing or Muay Thai if possible. Because Judo or BJJ emphasize on take-downs, which are considered sacrificial techniques - both u & ur opponent are on the ground. In one-on-one scenario its ok, but if ur facing multiple guys - forget it, u'll get kick in ur face & groin!

Boxing & Muay Thai is useful because u really practice hitting ur opponent, more in action with a real target than practicing styles. Impt point is, u need to feel natural, confident and in control when hitting a real person, u not only learn to hit where it counts but also learn to take hits. All these provides u with experience and preparedness. To learn to fight, u need to fight! And not just hitting to score points like a karate tournament, but hitting to incapacitate ur opponent, take him down!

That said, dun be afraid or feel chicken to walk away from a fight. Learn to assess the situation and not let ur ego get the better of u.
 
Remember, on the streets there are no rules - there is only the survivor & the one in the hospital.


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 04:51
One question I'm surprised nobody's asked:
 
How tall are you and how much do you weigh? Your body type certainly makes a difference in looking for the MAs that are right for you.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 06:55
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley Bernard Woolley wrote:

One question I'm surprised nobody's asked:
 
How tall are you and how much do you weigh? Your body type certainly makes a difference in looking for the MAs that are right for you.


The rest of us were too busy having our debate about styleBig%20smile. good job asking the needed query.


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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 07:23
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I've been a witness to humiliating experiences of "traditional martial arts masters" that's why I came to think like I think now. For example, I saw how "Wushu champion of Europe" got beaten by a low class boxer. They guy quited wushu after that, he is now a professional Muay Thai fighter and a master of boxing. Smile
Oh please, if such a thing come to pass, the title isn't worth a bucket of spit in the first place.
How did the so called Wushu champion of Europe got that title in the first place?


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 10:22
I am neither tall nor short;neither fat nor slim.19 years old.I found something like Hapkido,it looks cool.what about it?


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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 10:51
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:

  Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight.
Was he ever in one? 
 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Was he ever in one? 
 


Apparently there were one or two people who considered him nothing more than an actor...they fought, he won.

Then again--Bruce lee was a major proponent of cross-training. He took some fencing and wrestling as well.

Apparently, one time a wrestler who had pinned him in practice asked what he would do if that happened in an actual fight; Bruce lee just said "Why, I'd bite you of course!"




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Gargoyle
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 17:50

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Was he ever in one?


Are you serious gcle2003?????

Read this please... it should bring you up to date...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee    





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Jugo de sandia es muy bueno!


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 19:09
Originally posted by snowybeagle snowybeagle wrote:

 
Oh please, if such a thing come to pass, the title isn't worth a bucket of spit in the first place.
How did the so called Wushu champion of Europe got that title in the first place?
 
How he got his title? On the championship, of course.
 
He has been studying Wushu for many years in Beijing in the special institute. Traditional Wushu styles are complitely useless in the real fight that's why Chinese had to "reinvent" Sanda or Sanshoudao, but again it's a very good physical training which can help you a lot when you start studying a really practical style.
 
When I lived in Taiwan I had many conversations with the guys who studied traditional Wushu for many years and felt vey frustrated about its efficiency. The funny thing that I met them in the boxing gym. LOL


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 19:17
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

  Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight.
 
Bruce Lee is an excellent athlete. However, he was an actor in the first place, but not a street fighter.
 
Nevertheless, Bruce Lee invented his own style Jeet Kune Do, which is indeed effective compare to "traditional martial arts." However, Bruce Lee abandoned Wing Tsun stances and technques, he based Jeet Kune Do on the Western Boxing, simply because he saw that boxing was much more efficient than Wing Tsun.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 21:56
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Nevertheless, Bruce Lee invented his own style Jeet Kune Do, which is indeed effective compare to "traditional martial arts." However, Bruce Lee abandoned Wing Tsun stances and technques, he based Jeet Kune Do on the Western Boxing, simply because he saw that boxing was much more efficient than Wing Tsun.


Do you mind if I ask a question?

You seem rather interested in styles rather than individuals--how did you end up seeing things that way? Any a result of personal experience?

Personally, I've taken generally traditional and "useless" martial arts most of my time as a martial artist--and the few instances of combat against someone from a "better" style I've had, I've either held my own or won.

Granted, these were not straight street fights--more on the order of freestyle sparring then anything else, rather like MMA matches as opposed to real combat. But I've proved to myself that the styles I've studied haven't made me ineffective; and that some of the techniques I've learned can be applied, If I time them right and perform them correctly.




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 00:26
I agree that individual character is important.
 
But I thought the question was about effectiveness of different styles per se.
 
Let us put it this way.
 
There are 2 people of the same physic abilities, strenghts, sizes etc. They also have the same level of mental control, psychological self confidence etc.
 
Now we teach our guys different styles of MA, let's say one study Aikido, another Muay Thai, they study it for the same time period each time spending equal time in classes.
 
Now the question is who will win in a fight between the two?
 
In my opinion the answer is clear, the Muay Thai guy will win. Just because his style is more suitable for the real hand to hand combat situation.
 
The ability to mentally control yourself under the stress of the fight is very important and can't be under played.
 
However, some styles are just simply more close to this kind of stressful situation than the other.
 
If you're doing boxing for example you spar all the time. You simply get you used to get your ass kicked. But you hardly can get the same kind of experience when you do aikido for example, or some style of traditional karate or kongfu, on the contrary most of the time you'll spend on polishing useless (for real fight situation) kata or taolu as they are called in Chinese.
 
That's what I meant.
 
However, I agree that the personality is very important. In order to be succesful in the fight one should have the level of self confidence, the ability to remain calm and a kind of the thing which I would call "warrior spirit" and not every "fighter" can really claim all those qualities.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 01:02
Of course!

Your analysis is entirely correct.

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your intentions. You said 'those styles are completely useless in a real fight' and I guess I misunderstood, taking that to mean 'it doesn't matter who you are, if you study in these styles you will lose.'

I might dispute the characterization of Wushu as all bad, but in general, it has been transformed into much less of a combative art than it was. Now it's often more of a stylized sport, which is unfortunate.




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 21:32
what about Hapkido? looks pretty good.

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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 03:49
Hapkido is fairly good. From what I understand, it's into more joint locks and pins than many other arts, but it's more balanced over various methods of attack and defense than you might think.

I'm not exactly an expert on that particular martial art, though. Feel free to do research as opposed to automatically taking my word.


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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 05:05

I did little bit of Hapkido when I was young.   I know it's smilier to Aikido but I don't know much about Aikido other than it is similar to Hapkido, so I wouldn't be able to tell you how it is different if it is different.  I assuming Hapkido has some native Korean martial arts elements added to it, like Dang Su Do, Hwarangdo, Taekkyun, etc.  'Hap' means 'to bring together', 'Ki' is the Chinese martial arts' 'Chi', 'Do' means 'the Way'.  The way of bringing energy together?  Something like that.

Like TheARRGH said it focuses on joint locks with some throws and striking moves.  Joint locks are lot different than ones we see in MMA.  First it's not about putting maximum pressure on certain points.  It's more designed to gain control over your opposition than going for the maximum pain or even damage.  Which leads to moves like you end up with two fingers on your opponents wrist with his arm twisted and you have total control this person, something like that.  As Samart has been doubting about the practicality of these moves, I question some of them also.  
 
For me personally I enjoyed the Taoism, Tai Chi, Acupressure elements more.  You need to understand how the body works.  There is much more emphasis on bringing this 'Ki/Chi' together by understanding how it flows through your body as you move.  Judo has that element too.  Having done both are very good for balanced posture.  Posture is very important in many East Asian martial arts, even calligraphy for that matter.  Whole idea is if attain that center you can let the evil energy pass by you without losing your own mental/emotional/physical balance, and let it fall on its own force of gravity.  From blocking to foot works to strikes circular movements are emphasized also.  All the forces comes from the ground and goes back to the earth eventually.  All you need to do is guide the fall.  I guess that's the Taoist element I was talking a bout.   Some breathing and meditation exercises remind me of some Tai Chi too, though I can't say I'm an expert on Taoism or Tai Chi.  There is a great deal of study on human anatomy and pressure points and muscle and bone structures stuff like that.  If you have a back problem and can't find a chiropractor go find a local hapkido master, don't quote me on that though either.Wink 
 
Here is a little demo video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgK5Odk39Wk&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgK5Odk39Wk&feature=related             


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I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself.
- from 'Kundun'

www.ted.com


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 05:53
 Aikido and Hapkido are written with the same Chinese characters 合氣道 and apparently have the same meaning.
 
King Kang, it's interesting how Aikido is called in Korea?
 
In fact both have origins in Japanese jujitsu that's why the techniques are so similar. However besides, jujitsu it seems to me that Hapkido incorporated a great deal of Taekwondo. Taekwondo style high kicks (which is not very practical BTW) are common in Hapkido sparring. Active incorporation of Jujitsu throws and joint-locks makes Hapkido somehow more practical than other traditional MA. The weakness of Hapkido is poor bad punching techinques.
 
In my assesment, however, Hapkido, is still not the best option for the street.
 
 I would still go with good old Muay Thai. Smile


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 06:05
Not Muay Thai.

Muay Boran.

(Assuming you can find someone who actually teaches it...)




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 06:18
I don't think Batu will be able to find a guy like this. Smile

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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 06:28
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I don't think Batu will be able to find a guy like this. Smile


Hope springs eternal.Praying

Batu, if you're more into the flat-out efficient street-fight sort of martial arts, you might try Krav Maga. It's an Israeli-invented self-defense focused martial art with the emphasis on, basically, survival by any means necessary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga - The Wikipedia Article

It can be difficult to find a school, but...well...

WAY less difficult than finding someone who actually teaches Muay Boran.
(Although a great many things are less difficult than finding someone who actually teaches Muay Boran. Raising a Nile crocodile with minimal injury is one of them.)







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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 07:07
Funny clip for Hapkido.
Bruce Lee mopping the floor with a Hapkido master.Big%20smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rogv4Ss7V8c - Bruce Lee (Kung-Fu) vs. Ji Han Jae (Hapkido)   


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I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself.
- from 'Kundun'

www.ted.com


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 17:27
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

Funny clip for Hapkido.
Bruce Lee mopping the floor with a Hapkido master.Big%20smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rogv4Ss7V8c -




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 17:32
Kenpo is an excellent, efficent, practical, street art and you might look into krav maga my brother is taking it.

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 19:39
The quote attributed to me isn't mine. Just for the record.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

  Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight.
 
Bruce Lee is an excellent athlete. However, he was an actor in the first place, but not a street fighter.
 
Nevertheless, Bruce Lee invented his own style Jeet Kune Do, which is indeed effective compare to "traditional martial arts." However, Bruce Lee abandoned Wing Tsun stances and technques, he based Jeet Kune Do on the Western Boxing, simply because he saw that boxing was much more efficient than Wing Tsun.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 03:21
BTW Batu did you ever find a martial art?

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 16:21
not yet,actuallyLOL Im still looking for the best.I went to a kickboxing gym a week ago,which was run by a professional kickboxer(he still fights,I knew him from tv).I got into one of his lessons and I found it too violent for me.the guy said that I will get stronger when I have got beaten enough.So I am still searching.


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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 16:23
Try kenpo

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

not yet,actuallyLOL Im still looking for the best.I went to a kickboxing gym a week ago,which was run by a professional kickboxer(he still fights,I knew him from tv).I got into one of his lessons and I found it too violent for me.the guy said that I will get stronger when I have got beaten enough.So I am still searching.
 
That is true; you will learn nothing unless you get beaten.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 21:57
Style vs Style is a dumb argument to do, each one has its own specialty with a emphasis on it which will obviously make one or the other better in a "Street fight" situation. But the bottem line is  MA's are useless in a street fight the best street fight technique is to avoid it altogether or run away. It won't make a difference if your a judo master or boxing champ somone knifes you, your scewed.

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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 22:10
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

 
That is true; you will learn nothing unless you get beaten.


Have to agree with you there, Sarmat.

The way to learn is to lose until you start winning.

And then repeat the process.Big%20smile


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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 22:22
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

It won't make a difference if your a judo master or boxing champ somone knifes you, your dead.
 
 
Then learn how to take the knife away, or carry a knife and/or a gun.
 
Or better yet all of the aboveWink


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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 16:59
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

Style vs Style is a dumb argument to do, each one has its own specialty with a emphasis on it which will obviously make one or the other better in a "Street fight" situation. But the bottem line is  MA's are useless in a street fight the best street fight technique is to avoid it altogether or run away. It won't make a difference if your a judo master or boxing champ somone knifes you, your scewed.
 
I don't agree. First of all, of course there are no MAs which are complitely the same with "street fighting;" but, there are MAs that are more closer to it and less closer.
 
Secondly, there MAs which teach you how to defend against knife and other weapons.
 
Thirdly, knifes and weapons are not used in most of the street fights, which usually look like primitive boxing and wrestling moves. So, a good boxer, wrestler, kick boxer or MMA practitioner will always be on top in the fight like this.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Mayra
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 17:34
brasilian capoeira is good sport... i wish this was more like a true chat area....is there somewhere where everyone meets in real time??

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"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
" I have no particular talent. I am merely inquisitive". Albert Einstein


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 17:39
yes getting beaten might work for learning but I am not planning to lose a teeth or two.I will go for boxing this week.hope the trainer is more merciful.


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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 17:52
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

Style vs Style is a dumb argument to do, each one has its own specialty with a emphasis on it which will obviously make one or the other better in a "Street fight" situation. But the bottem line is  MA's are useless in a street fight the best street fight technique is to avoid it altogether or run away. It won't make a difference if your a judo master or boxing champ somone knifes you, your scewed.
 
I don't agree. First of all, of course there are no MAs which are complitely the same with "street fighting;" but, there are MAs that are more closer to it and less closer.
 
Secondly, there MAs which teach you how to defend against knife and other weapons.
 
Thirdly, knifes and weapons are not used in most of the street fights, which usually look like primitive boxing and wrestling moves. So, a good boxer, wrestler, kick boxer or MMA practitioner will always be on top in the fight like this.


Sarmat don't take it the wrong way but thats a very optimistic view on how street fights play out, weapons are the highest risk and even if the assailants don't have any don't expect a fair 1 on 1 match, more like getting mobbed by 3 people.MA's  give you the upper hand over someone if its a 1vs1 match with no weapons involved but thats almost never nearly the case.Tell me one MA that teachs you to avoid a brick to the head while 2 people rush you and stomp you into a coma. Unless you consider stupid highschool fights thats the only place i can think of were MA's would help out much.


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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 18:20
Originally posted by Mayra Mayra wrote:

brasilian capoeira is good sport... i wish this was more like a true chat area....is there somewhere where everyone meets in real time??


It is that. Which reminds me, I need to get back into it. Only stopped because of schedule challenges.

Oh, and since we're all scattered across the globe, we find it a bit difficult to meet in real time.


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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 05:31
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

yes getting beaten might work for learning but I am not planning to lose a teeth or two.I will go for boxing this week.hope the trainer is more merciful.
 
LOL Boxing is supposed to be even more dangerous.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 05:40
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:


Sarmat don't take it the wrong way but thats a very optimistic view on how street fights play out, weapons are the highest risk and even if the assailants don't have any don't expect a fair 1 on 1 match, more like getting mobbed by 3 people.MA's  give you the upper hand over someone if its a 1vs1 match with no weapons involved but thats almost never nearly the case.Tell me one MA that teachs you to avoid a brick to the head while 2 people rush you and stomp you into a coma. Unless you consider stupid highschool fights thats the only place i can think of were MA's would help out much.
 
Hmm.. actually weapons are absent from most of the street fights. In order to avoid a brick to the head you'll have to move your body fast and have a quick reaction (almost all every MMA at least tries to teach it).
 
About 1 MA guy versus several people.  (This is very real and most of the fights are just like this one, very fast and unpredictable).
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7PMp-yXHT0&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7PMp-yXHT0&feature=related
 
Perhaps my story doesn't count, but I saw myself how a drunk boxing coach knocked out 3 Russian policemen. Some MA definitely work on the street.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 23:08
You are living a fairy tale my friend, a few exceptions don't make a majority.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17616770&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=champ-hatton-mugged-on-hol--name_page.html

Hatton did the right thing and hes a world caliber boxer.


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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 23:43

We are not talking about gang robberies. We are talking about street fights.

Defence against an armed robber is another story.
 
And I don't think that Batu who was opened the thread was interested in how "should he disarm a criminal armed with a gun." It's complitely another topic.
 
We are discussing street fights here i.e. fight between unarmed people which happen on the street i.e. not in a gym or in a boxing ring and which are not limited by conventional rules.
 
To defend against the things you are talking about my advice would be to buy a gun.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 23:51
Exactly

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 00:20
Just prior to the out break of the war with Japan an Army Boxing Champ and a Jap Imperial navy Ju Jitsu champ had a match.  The US Army boxer took the JJ champ to school.Big%20smile It wasn't even close.  Building on that, the US military dveloped their own MA.  It is no holds down and dirty.  Designed for hand to hand unarmed combat it took moves and techniques from almost every other form of MA and much of it came directly from the street.  Since WWII it has been refined some but not much.  It's still taught in basic afaik and the manuals are still published.  Most of it is not for casual use.  The main idea is to maim or kill.
 
 


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 03:43
Well i am getting all this told to me from my Dad Mariusz Bonek(you can look him up on google and find some listings at tournaments,competetions but for the most part hes obscure)He was a top 5 boxer in Poland on his way to olympics but one day got lazy and stopped training.Hes been in a good number of "street fights" with hooligans,gypsys and thugs and these are the things hes told me and if that isnt somthing that debunks your opinion i don't know what does considering he is a high caliber Boxer whos been involved in street fights.

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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 04:37
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

Well i am getting all this told to me from my Dad Mariusz Bonek(you can look him up on google and find some listings at tournaments,competetions but for the most part hes obscure)He was a top 5 boxer in Poland on his way to olympics but one day got lazy and stopped training.Hes been in a good number of "street fights" with hooligans,gypsys and thugs and these are the things hes told me and if that isnt somthing that debunks your opinion i don't know what does considering he is a high caliber Boxer whos been involved in street fights.


Well, ask him these questions.

1: How many of these fights involved armed opponents
2:What (if anything) were they armed with
2: Did he manage to string them out and take them one at a time in any, or was he mobbed in all of them without exception.
3: Assuming there were any in which he fought assailant(s) one at a time, did his boxing skills help at all in those quick one-on-one contests.
4: If what you're saying is true and MAs are useless in a real knock-down, kick-out street fight, weapons are common, and it's almost impossible to avoid being mobbed, WHY IN GOD'S NAME IS HE STILL ALIVE.

The fact that he's been in those fights and is still living is either a result of skill or luck. If he's been in as many fights as you say, then either god really likes him or he's good enough at what he does to defeat his opponents, disengage from the fight, or just survive--a feat in and of itself.




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 05:21
Questioning me about the reliability of his experiences is pointless considering he doesn't elaborate on them much and thats what makes them belivable because they don't sound like tall tales. And to answer your last question the majority of his stories he was with friends/other boxers for the most part, he was only in a street fight by himself on one occastion. If you guys are trying to argue the fact that skilled/experienced Fighters in what ever discipline get helped by that in street fights thats absolulty true,but its not some miracle training that will  guarantee the win for the practioner.  the point i am trying to argue is that the general population isnt exactly skilled/experienced and most of the time get hurt seriously or even fataly sometimes. Havn't you heard of the countless news stories of teenagers getting knocked down and kicked to dead by a group of other teenagers?You guys come off as someone who has been a practitioner for 2 years of what ever and you think your the s*** and have some exclusive knowledge that will overcome 3 other people. Welcome to reality, street fights don't end well for a single combatant against a group most of the time. But thats life nothing is 100 percent.


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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 05:53
Dear Husaria,
 
Perhaps you misunderstood our discussion. We don't consider ourselves as some modern variations of Bruce Lees which are able to kick any ass or whatever comes on the street.
 
We were just discussing the relative applicability of different styles on the street. That's it.
 
I think it's out of question that a person trained in a MA would do much better in a street fight than an average Joe without MA experience. The question is which MA would be the most effective on the street.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 06:08
I am glad we understand each other.If thats the case i would go with Muay thai and Judo, Muay thai for the clinch which turns up alot in the uglyness of street fights and judo for nice throws on cement using the clothing as handlesBig%20smile

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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 06:13
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

Designed for hand to hand unarmed combat it took moves and techniques from almost every other form of MA and much of it came directly from the street.  Since WWII it has been refined some but not much.  It's still taught in basic afaik and the manuals are still published.  Most of it is not for casual use.  The main idea is to maim or kill.
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoKG5ZBDyg8 - Human Weapon 01x08 Marine Corps Martial Arts (1)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l2LYyn7Kg8 - Human Weapon 01x08 Marine Corps Martial Arts (2)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5kBJXvqhOw&feature=related - Human Weapon 01x08 Marine Corps Martial Arts (3) 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sMEJbMZGew&feature=related - Human Weapon 01x08 Marine Corps Martial Arts (4) 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao0r_CWHOik&feature=related - Human Weapon 01x08 Marine Corps Martial Arts (5) 
 
 


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I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself.
- from 'Kundun'

www.ted.com


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:02
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

I am glad we understand each other.If thats the case i would go with Muay thai and Judo, Muay thai for the clinch which turns up alot in the uglyness of street fights and judo for nice throws on cement using the clothing as handlesBig%20smile
 
Good choices indeed. Smile


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 23:50
Hmm. Personally I'd take a combination of boxing (for obvious reasons), capoeira (for sheer physical conditioning and some take-downs, and so I could throw a powerful kick--given the opportunity) and Silat.

Why settle for two?




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 00:01
Muay Thai all the way - no other choice for me.

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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 01:00
I have some training in full contact, so I recommend it. Kendo in a good choice, too.   

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Anfører


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 01:10
I just thought of something.

Parkour.

It's not a martial art per se, but given how extremely important mobility is in a dangerous situation--both maneuvering during the conflict and in disengaging from it--parkour could be a really good choice. (If not as a straight self-defense practice).

It's physically challenging, very fun, doesn't involve getting beaten up, and useful.




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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 01:24
Batu you might want to try ARMA or kenpo which I highly reccomend

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 16:17
IMO Chinese Sanshou/Sanda (which is actually a Chinese variation of Thai boxing with the emphasize of throwing techinques) is also very effective.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 01:05
Wow that looks very impressive hahah almost like a wrestling/muay thai hybrid.

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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 22:23
sanda looks very dangerous.you can even break your neck.see ,sometimes you gotta stay away from sports to be healthy.

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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 23:05
Any stand up grappling sport such as judo,wrestling or what ever has a risk of breaking your neck but i don't care if we stayed away from anything that had a risk life would'nt be worth living.

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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 23:36
Batu if you're afraid to get heart practical MAs aren't for you. Of course you can easily break you leg, neck, arm or get you head and brains damaged when you practice any form of wrestling, boxing, kick boxing etc. You'll never be able to eliminate the risk for 100%. Almost all the guys who practice boxing have their noses broken. A lot of wrestlers have differend kinds of injures. I have a serious knee injury after practicing judo for many years.
 
Perhaps aikido would be the best for you.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 00:28
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I have a serious knee injury after practicing judo for many years.

Have you fought against Vladimir Putin?


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 01:23
LOL
Obviously, not. Otherwise I would be in some other place instead of chilling out with you here guys.

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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 03:40
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Batu if you're afraid to get heart practical MAs aren't for you. Of course you can easily break you leg, neck, arm or get you head and brains damaged when you practice any form of wrestling, boxing, kick boxing etc. You'll never be able to eliminate the risk for 100%. Almost all the guys who practice boxing have their noses broken. A lot of wrestlers have differend kinds of injures. I have a serious knee injury after practicing judo for many years.
 
Perhaps aikido would be the best for you.


I have had the same problem, knee injury, when I used to practice full-contact karate, but I love full-contact. It's really hard to avoid injuries when you are practicing martial arts.


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Anfører


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 23:45
I am doing sanda Smile And I like it.

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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )


Posted By: Husaria
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 00:04
Good for you, glad to see you found what you like.

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"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.


Posted By: Jallaludin Akbar
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 03:20
I'm doing Traditional Tae Kwon Do right now, but i have a question. Is taekwondo really practical for real life use or is it just for show? I know its great for cardio-fitness...but seriously which martial art is really used for practical selfdefence and not for attractive demonstration?

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"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-Mahatma Gandhi



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 03:26
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

I am doing sanda Smile And I like it.
 
Good choice.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 03:29
Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

I'm doing Traditional Tae Kwon Do right now, but i have a question. Is taekwondo really practical for real life use or is it just for show? I know its great for cardio-fitness...but seriously which martial art is really used for practical selfdefence and not for attractive demonstration?
 
No, it's not practical.
 
 Muay Thai and boxing are very useful in real life.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 15:51
I had 2 last choices; ,boxing,sanda
Boxing is probably the most practical one,but I didnt go for that becouse it lacks creativity;there are only a few moves.
Sanda is by the way,really entertaining. The wrestling part sometimes gets boring but still;I had to go for something before I get old Tongue


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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )



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