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Spitfire vs. Me-109

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc...
Moderators: Constantine XI, Byzantine Emperor, Knights, Sparten, Temujin
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=23391
Printed Date: 31-Oct-2014 at 23:30


Topic: Spitfire vs. Me-109
Posted By: Sun Tzu
Subject: Spitfire vs. Me-109
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 18:20

Now I know it's usually the Pilot who makes the difference between victory or defeat, but for the planes which was better, the Spitfire or Me-109?



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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu



Replies:
Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 18:21

I would choose the Spitfire because it's maneuverability was slightly better than the 109, but those 20mm cannons on the 109 would wreak havoc on any Spitfire.



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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 18:35
I think you need to be a bit more specific about models.
 
Moreover, as I recall, the Hurricane in general had a better combat record than the Spitfire.
 
The Spitfire wins on looks however, hands down.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 18:48
really? i always thought the Spit looks butt-ugly, particularly compared to the hurri. well, beauty is really in the eye of the beholder...

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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:15
The Submarine Spitfire not only sounds cool it also looks the part. Some butts are quite attractive. It's all personal through the eye of the beholder Temujin. The engine variants made a diff. The Merlin had the distance and the Griffon the speed. Different roles.
 
Me-109. Big guns. I'd still go with a Fockewulf.


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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:24
now seriously, how is the Spitfire beautiful (i agree, cool name though):



look at the shape of the wings!! Confused what were they thinking!?!

other than that, how is the rest of the general appearance different from most other similar aircraft (Lavochkin, Yak)?


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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:27
Correction- Supermarine Spitfire. My bad. Cooler name.
 
That wing shape gives it a distinctive look. Yak or not. LOL


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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:28
 
Originally posted by Seko

The Submarine Spitfire not only sounds cool it also looks the part.
I love the idea but I'm afraid it was always Supermarine Cool even the Seafire carrier version.
Some butts are quite attractive. It's all personal through the eye of the beholder Temujin.
Depends if you go for muscle or curves....
 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:29
those are nice symmetrically shaped wings:



note the general resemblance in appearance:






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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:30
This is what I'm talking about. The FW-190, almost as neat as the...

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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:31
I'm with you Gcle - the Supermarine Spitfire looks damn awesome. I also think it was the better fighter overall. Just for the record, I think the Messerschmidt me 163 Komet is the cutest looking plane!

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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:35
 
P-51!!! American badass.


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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Depends if you go for muscle or curves....
 
 
Curves are the way to go. Just feels right!
 


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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:47
if its going to be a beauty contest:










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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:56
Corsair and the Me 262 are definately in the running. The Stuka looks like it was concocted in Dr. Frankenstien's dungeon.

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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 20:03
can't say no to those two heavy hangers, can you?






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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 16:16








[/QUOTE] What is that?!?!?!

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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 19:07
this is the He 162 jet-engine fighter. variously called "Volksjäger", "Salamander" or "Spatz". the only jet-engined aircraft that went into serial production other than the Me 262 and the Ar 234 jet-bomber. while the Me 262 was supposed the main fighter aircraft (with possible ground attack capacity),  the He 162 was designed as a simple and cheap fighter-only vessel, hence its name Volksjäger (peoples fighter, akin to the Volkssturm). here to be seen in a experimental wing configuration that never made it into production. this is the actual appearance:



actually my most prefered aircraft in the Il-2 Sturmovik flight sim.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 19:17
Now THAT's ugly.

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 19:27
yeah, but only with the original wing config. the version i posted with swallow-tailed wings looks awesome.

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Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 14:12
 
Here you go gents... My personal Fave. Here's two Double Wasps screaming at you...


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The sharpest spoon in the drawer.


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 15:21
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

I would choose the Spitfire because it's maneuverability was slightly better than the 109, but those 20mm cannons on the 109 would wreak havoc on any Spitfire.

 
Actually the ME109 had a better turning circle than the Spit. Just if you overturned you crashed and died. The Spit was impossible to overturn, so Spitfire pilots were in no danger when doing extreme turns, but non-veteran ME109 pilots reluctant to attempt tight turns.
 
ME109 also had fuel injection so could dive. Spit early versions couldn't sustain a dive because it would starve the engine of fuel and they'de stall.
 
The real difference was pilots quality, all the German veteran pilots were moved out of 109's into 110's, so the 109 had a slightly better plane but were green. And a Hurricane, let alone a Spit was vastly superior to a 110, a terrible waste of pilots.
 
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Moreover, as I recall, the Hurricane in general had a better combat record than the Spitfire.
 
 
 
The reason Hurracane had better kills than Spit was because they concerntrted on twin engine aircraft. While Spits engaged single engine.
 
 
 


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http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

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Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 16:54

The Goblin jetfighter was pretty crazy

in-air.jpggoblin-bomber.jpg Do you guys know of any time this aircraft was actualy ever used?


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Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: Challenger2
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 17:23
When Goering asked the 109 fighter ace Adolph Galland what did he need to make his life easier, he replied, "Give me a squadron of Spitfires!"

That just says it all. Big%20smile


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 18:15
Originally posted by Paul

The real difference was pilots quality, all the German veteran pilots were moved out of 109's into 110's, so the 109 had a slightly better plane but were green. And a Hurricane, let alone a Spit was vastly superior to a 110, a terrible waste of pilots.
 


what? most 109 aces flew the aircraft until the end. moreover Me 110s were in different squadrons (Zerstörergeschwader) than fighters (Jagdgeschwader)


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Posted By: deadkenny
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 15:37
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Now I know it's usually the Pilot who makes the difference between victory or defeat, but for the planes which was better, the Spitfire or Me-109?



I assume you are talking about the 'Battle of Britain', or thereabouts.  As you say, pilot quality was critical.  The Germans also started off with superior tactics, which the British gradually caught up to.  In terms of the machines themselves, in practice they probably worked out to be fairly even.   Fundamentally the Spitfire was probably a better design.  However, it had a couple 'flaws' which gave the Me109 an edge.  The Spitfire engine had a carburetor whereas the Me109's had 'fuel injection'.  The carb could actually cause the engine to lose power or stall out during certain high G manoeuvers.  The Me109's also had 20mm cannons which proved to be much more effective than the .303 caliber machine guns of the Spitfire.  The later versions of the Spitfire addressed these issues and those later version were much superior to the later versions of the Me109.  The FW190 was a much superior mid-late war fighter for the Germans.  It could have been available much earlier, but for Goering (as usual), politics and the shortsighted approach to the war (after the defeat of France the view was Britain would soon quit the war and that the campaign in Russia would only take 1 year so longer term weapon development suffered during that critical time).


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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana


Posted By: aghart
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 23:27
Originally posted by Seko

 
P-51!!! American badass.
 
SEKO, consider yourself in the sin bin!!   Spitfire Vs Me109 !! simple enough but you put in the P51 and lo and behold the thread goes off course and turns into a "my favourite fighter thread".
 
So back to the "correct subject".  These two fine aircraft were pretty evenly matched in the early years of WWII. The Spitfire in my opinion wins it because of it's ability to be upgraded as time goes on. The ME 109 may have soldiered on until the end of the war but was  basically superseded by the FW190 from about 1942 onwards. The Spitfire is the only fighter that was in service at the start of WWII and could still hold it's own against any (piston engined) fighter at the end of the conflict.


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Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines


Posted By: Sparten
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 06:46
It was obsolete by 43-44, it did not have the range to do what the Fighters of the allies now had to do in the main, that is escort bombers.

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The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".


Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 08:54
Originally posted by aghart

These two fine aircraft were pretty evenly matched in the early years of WWII. The Spitfire in my opinion wins it because of it's ability to be upgraded as time goes on. The ME 109 may have soldiered on until the end of the war but was  basically superseded by the FW190 from about 1942 onwards. The Spitfire is the only fighter that was in service at the start of WWII and could still hold it's own against any (piston engined) fighter at the end of the conflict.
Why do people seem to forget that it was the Bf109 that was actually far more upgraded than the Spitfire? Israel was using the Me109 as the mainsaty of it's emerging airforce. Spain was also using it up until the 50's.
Those two machines encountered themselves during WWII and I think that the Me109 is slightly better than the Spit. Let's see:
The E vs the MkI and/or MkII. The E could dive and climb better and had tremendous acceleration - this was probably what made the 109 distinctive. Its armament, especially the two MGFF, was not the very best thing against a Spit. Aiming was tough. The two Mg17 on the other hand were far better. Easy to aim yet still lacking the necessary punch. The eight .303 of the Spit were better, on the other hand, since they were pouring a lot more lead into the enemy fighter. That would have wounded at least. The Spit was also a circus plane and had a slight higher top speed. But due to its chracteristics the 109 could always break away. Anyway, in BoB the two were in the wrong hands. The Spit was better suited for escort since it was a fighter vs fighter rather than the E who, using its guns in dashing attacks, would have turn the Balbos into metal shred. Oh, another thing, the visibility from the Spit was wonderful, unlike the 109 who always was rear blind.
The F vs MkV. In these versions the MkV was hampered by being "clipped, clapped, cropped". Yet it did packed enough punch and was agile enough. The F2 was seriously undergunned but the F4 was a tough customer. That Mg15/20 in the proppeler hub was deadly for a Spit. The F was agile enough but not for a dogfight withe a MkV. Head to head the F would win (better gun, easyer to aim). And bouncing, off course. The MkV also lacks the high altitude advantages that will come later.
The G vs MkIX. Now it's no more about fighting. The IX is really trouble for the G. The german fighter is outgunned and outpowered. Yet it still has a lot of hidden cards. First, the Mk108 on the G10. Man, if you spit a Spit with that it will drool allower the sky! So, the G still had a chance. High, dive, hit and run. If caught in a fight, it still had enough acceleration and still could outdive the Spit. In the end, it was up to the the pilots.
The K vs MkIV. The MkIV is considered to be the top Spit but in my opinion these two late versions of the fighters show that the potential of the 109 was superior. Because the K was better than the MkIV. The weaponry was deadly, it had speed and the MkIV was less agile than the IX. The K was better at low and medium height and almost equal upstairs. Bounce, dive and hit hard. The Spit was still better at turning fights but ...
All in all I think the Spit is maybe the best defensive plane of WWII while the 109 was the finest weapon a hunter would want. The advantage of the Spitfire lies especially in the fact that it was a pilot friendly airplane. The 109 was a rather unforgiving machine. And that made the difference. USA shown it. It would have been easy for the Americans to build the Spit but instead they built the P47, P51 and the F6. A little off the track here but let's see:
Both the Spit and the 109 could mock "The Jug" but noone of them would withstand a burst of the eight M2's. While the P47 was harder than a He111. And it could dive like a rocket.
The Spit and the 109 (G10 maybe and the K for sure) where in the same league as the P51. Only the latter could fly for hours. And it was working in packs. Teamwork was the solution and it worked. Not a fair fight, one on one, no. Four against one, even more if possible.
The Hellcat faced a different foe but let's look at it. Simple, rugged, hard hitting and powerful. The slick lines of the Spit or the agressive look of the 109 are better looking but the "clumsy" F6 is a life saviour.
To conclude: The Spitfire was a dancer in the sky. The 109 was a killing machine but only aces could really handle it.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by aghart

 
SEKO, consider yourself in the sin bin!!   Spitfire Vs Me109 !! simple enough but you put in the P51 and lo and behold the thread goes off course and turns into a "my favourite fighter thread".
 
So back to the "correct subject"...
 
In my temporary state of excited aviation glutony I may have slightly veered off topic. Embarrassed For that I duly warn myself for what it's worth. I am humbled. Go P-51! (oops)


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Copyright © 2004 Seko


Posted By: aghart
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 21:41
Originally posted by Seko

Originally posted by aghart

 
SEKO, consider yourself in the sin bin!!   Spitfire Vs Me109 !! simple enough but you put in the P51 and lo and behold the thread goes off course and turns into a "my favourite fighter thread".
 
So back to the "correct subject"...
 
In my temporary state of excited aviation glutony I may have slightly veered off topic. Embarrassed For that I duly warn myself for what it's worth. I am humbled. Go P-51! (oops)
 
LOL


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Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines



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