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Turkish pirates in North Atlantic

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Early Modern & the Imperial Age
Forum Discription: World History from 1500 to the end of WW1
Moderators: Byzantine Emperor, Temujin, gcle2003
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22526
Printed Date: 16-Apr-2014 at 14:04


Topic: Turkish pirates in North Atlantic
Posted By: erkut
Subject: Turkish pirates in North Atlantic
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 16:08

Lately i heard an intresting guy his name is Jan Jansen Van Haarlem or Mourad Reis. He was an Dutch guy who become Muslim. But he fight under Ottoman/Moorish flag. He attacked İceland( http://www.visindavefur.hi.is/svar.asp?id=5738 - http://www.visindavefur.hi.is/svar.asp?id=5738 ) and İrland( http://www.bartleby.com/246/207.html - http://www.bartleby.com/246/207.html ).  http://www.tinaturk.org/THE_TURKISH_RAID_SAGA.pdf - http://www.tinaturk.org/THE_TURKISH_RAID_SAGA.pdf

Myt question is, was there any other pirates like Mourad Reis who sailed to North Atlantic(Even maybe America) ?


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DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !



Replies:
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 03:24
Wow, very interesting!  Thanks for posting this, erkut.  As for your question, I have wondered the same thing.  Please check out the "Ottoman perceptions of the Americas" link in my signature.


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 04:40
There where a few attacks by the Barbary Corsairs on the N. Atlantic shores in the early 17th c. but really not much. More like we come and go taking a few dozens of slaves with us. By that time the Barbary corsairs were on the way out pretty much.

Two interesting facts about the muslim navies in the straights: the Fatimids, Ummayadds and Almoravids had excellent navies and they where battling fiercely amongst them or against the Vikings, the Normands of Sicily and the Byzantine. There were even some massive naval battles between the Fatimids and the Ummayyads allied with the Byzantines off Sicily. Crazy shit never anybody speaks about it!!!
Then much latter, while the N. African regencies were already crushed by the European firepower, in the late 18th early 19th century, they took advantage of the Napoleonic wars to seize the control of the Mediterranean trade. For a while it was the Algerine fleet that ensure the primordial commercial links between Naples, Marseilles and Valencia, their former preys. Soon after 1815 though, the European took again the control of the merchant networks and the Barbary sailors were forced back into piracy which triggered the revengeful attacks by the Europeans of their strongholds and finally the conquest of Algiers.


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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 10:59
Relevant to the topic:
Starting from the early 17th century, the Ottoman fleet began to venture into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean - Atlantic Ocean (earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_Reis - Kemal Reis had sailed to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands - Canary Islands in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1501 - 1501 , while the fleet of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Reis_the_Elder - Murat Reis the Elder had captured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanzarote - Lanzarote of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands - Canary Islands in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1585 - 1585 ). In 1617 the Ottoman fleet captured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira - Madeira in the Atlantic Ocean, before raiding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sussex - Sussex , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth - Plymouth , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devon - Devon , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartland_Point - Hartland Point , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall - Cornwall and the other counties of western http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England - England in August 1625. In 1627 Ottoman naval ships, accompanied by corsairs from the Barbary Coast, raided the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_Islands - Shetland Islands , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faroe_Islands - Faroe Islands , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark - Denmark , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway - Norway and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland - Iceland . Between 1627 and 1631 the same Ottoman force also raided the coasts of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland - Ireland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden - Sweden . In 1655 a force of 40 Ottoman ships captured the Isle of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lundy - Lundy in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Channel - Bristol Channel , which served as the main base for Ottoman naval and privateering operations in the North Atlantic until 1660, when Ottoman ships appeared off the eastern coasts of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America - North America , particularly being sighted at the British colonies like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_of_Newfoundland - Newfoundland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia - Virginia .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Turkish_Navy


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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 19:46
Omar, I must say I am highly dubious about the idea of the Barbary corsairs going regularly plunder the English colonies in the 1660s while in 1661 Algiers was crushed by the Royal Navy.


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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 20:08
Originally posted by Maharbbal

There where a few attacks by the Barbary Corsairs on the N. Atlantic shores in the early 17th c. but really not much. More like we come and go taking a few dozens of slaves with us. By that time the Barbary corsairs were on the way out pretty much.

Two interesting facts about the muslim navies in the straights: the Fatimids, Ummayadds and Almoravids had excellent navies and they where battling fiercely amongst them or against the Vikings, the Normands of Sicily and the Byzantine. There were even some massive naval battles between the Fatimids and the Ummayyads allied with the Byzantines off Sicily. Crazy shit never anybody speaks about it!!!
Then much latter, while the N. African regencies were already crushed by the European firepower, in the late 18th early 19th century, they took advantage of the Napoleonic wars to seize the control of the Mediterranean trade. For a while it was the Algerine fleet that ensure the primordial commercial links between Naples, Marseilles and Valencia, their former preys. Soon after 1815 though, the European took again the control of the merchant networks and the Barbary sailors were forced back into piracy which triggered the revengeful attacks by the Europeans of their strongholds and finally the conquest of Algiers.
 
That most certainly does sound like interesting stuff and I would like to read more on it.


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Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2007 at 22:44
Originally posted by Maharbbal

There where a few attacks by the Barbary Corsairs on the N. Atlantic shores in the early 17th c. but really not much. More like we come and go taking a few dozens of slaves with us. By that time the Barbary corsairs were on the way out pretty much.
 
Is it known what kind of people the corsairs took captive during these raids?  Were they Native Americans or European colonists?  It would be interesting to see what the Barbary pirates thought of the natives and their culture as opposed to the Europeans and Greeks they were used to.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 09:10

Thanks for replys :)

Omar coud you give some more info please?
 
 


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DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 00:05
Erkut, Marhabbal: I just found that while browsing wikipaedia. I don't know anything more about it or its credibility.

While I was looking for more info about this, I found that the Isle of Lundy was occupied from 1655 to 1660 by the Ottoman Fleet (remember this is just after the civil war, not Englands best period)

Marhabbal can you point me in the direction of something that talks about the action in 1661? All I can find is that Edward Mountagu led an attack there, I don't see anything odd about the English launching counter-attacks (Why attack Algiers if it wasn't a threat?)
Also, attacking a privateers base often doesn't reduce his threat.


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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 01:25
Turk pirates camping out in the Irish sea?   Hmmmm......
 
This seems less than likely given the military posture of England in the 1650s.  Yes the civil wars had ended by 1651, but the Protectorate/Commonwealth was basically governed by Cromwell...through the army, a quite large and well experienced one at that.
 
Also, it was from the 1650s that England became a major naval power with the fleet rising by 1660 to 157 men-of-war and many lighter ships.
 
I just checked several volumes of naval history and cannot find anything on this Lundy business.  That island is in the Bristol Channel, a major seaport, and close to contemporary established naval ports at Devon and Plymouth.  The new model of warship being used by the mid 1650s was usually mounting up to 80 guns, and pirates tended to rely on running from naval vessels. 
 
Maybe a corsair made land fall, but I think the writer on Wikipedia was hallucinating.  Where would they have got their victuals for 5 years, or their naval stores?  I doubt they got 'em in Cornwall.
 
 


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 09:50
Here answers mentions it. Although I notice the dates are different.
http://www.answers.com/topic/lundy-isle - http://www.answers.com/topic/lundy-isle
In http://www.answers.com/topic/1627 - 1627 http://www.answers.com/topic/barbary-pirate-1 - Barbary pirates from Algiers under the Flemish renegade http://www.answers.com/topic/murat-reis-the-elder - Murat Reis the Younger captured Lundy. For the next 5 years the island served as a base for operations in the Atlantic Ocean by both the corsairs and the Ottoman navy.


http://www.lundyisland.co.uk/ - http://www.lundyisland.co.uk/ says that Turkish pirates used Lundy as a base in 1625 and 1635. The site doesn't have any history for the period 1640-1794 on it. Apart from that I'd say that this site is pretty reliable, I'm prepared to think that Turkish (and Spanish and probably french too) pirates used it as a base several times during the 17th century.
Originally posted by Pikeshot

Where would they have got their victuals for 5 years, or their naval stores?  I doubt they got 'em in Cornwall.

Thats a very good question actually. But Lundy does appear to have a long pirate history (long before the 17th century or the Ottoman Empire), so it must be of some use.


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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 15:32

Poor Murat Reis, depending upon which Internet entry takes your fancy you have the poor guy pillaging and plundering from 1560 to 1655! Of course, one forgets there was a Murat Reis the Elder and a younger counterpart. This last was simply a Dutch pirate (as was the wont of these celebrated brigands) utilizing the "Barbary" Coast as a base of operations. In this context, he was unique because his forays into the Atlantic were ventures into known waters and upon European type vessels and not the Mediterranean galleys typical of the Ottoman fleets in the years 1550-1650.

The funny part here is the assignation of the "capture" of Lanzarote by anyone named Murat Reis! In fact this Murat reis had little to do with the Turks and functioned more as pirate than privateer. In contrast, the Moroccans (definitely not under Turkish suzerainty at this time) did launch two raids on the island, one in 1569 and another in 1586, but no "Murat Reis" was involved. Turkish sailors such as Piri Reis and the real Murat Reis (Reis is a title and not a surname) do not need such embellishments to their reputations.

You can assign much of the information presented on these individuals as a stretching of history for the sake of nationalist Turkish fervor. All I can say is beware of undocumented statements found on Wiki!


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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 15:40
The different time frame may explain some of the matter.  It is an interesting sidelight to look into.
 
England was at war with Spain and France for several years after 1625.  Charles I was always scrambling for money, and England's military capacity had been pretty much disbanded by his father James I after Elizabeth died (1603).  Most of the meager resources England could gather were devoted to expeditions to Cadiz and to Isle de Rhe, as well as 12,000 soldiers to the Palatinate.
 
The corsairs may indeed have been able to take advantage as the dates above imply.  Whether they could make the island a base for years is another matter. 
 
Once England became a "military state" from 1649 to 1660, with an experienced standing army and a huge navy, that sort of presence would not have been tolerated on an important trade route out of Bristol.  That may be why there is no mention of the affair after about 1640.
 
For a very long time banditry, highwaymen and pirates were sort of a fact of life.  As we know, privateering (legal piracy) was practiced by all the maritime powers.  Many of those guys found it too profitable to quit. 
 
It would be interesting to read some contemporary writings on this.  If Murat Reis was a renegade Fleming, might he have preyed on Spanish shipping in the Channel, and might the English have turned a blind eye when it suited them?  Something tells me Murat Reis's (the elder Smile)Islamic epiphany was a conversion of convenience.
 
Omar, thanks for the info.
 
     


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 15:41
drgonzaga, thanks for the add'l info.
 
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 20:09
Well, pike, the purported occupation of Lundy by a Turkish fleet is sheer fantasy. Further, in the naval history of the English Channel (Fr. La Manche), corsairs were a fact of life--in fact ports such as Dieppe and St. Malo were havens for raiders of this ilk. Lundy itself, off the Devon coast, has an interesting history and the island's propietors maintain a passable historical synopsis in Adobe Flash where you can retrieve names:
http://www.lundyisland.co.uk/ - http://www.lundyisland.co.uk/
 
But, in essence reports of a Turkish fleet in the Atlantic at any time after 1580 is but a pipe dream, while our Dutchman masquerading as "Murat Reis" would have hoisted any flag as a convenient standard for his activities.


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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2007 at 04:17
Actually some Barbary corsairs would make wonderful movie characters.

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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2007 at 09:09
I believe one of the pirate kings in number III was a Barbary corsair.

drgonzaga: You just used the exact same website I used to get the dates of Turkish occupation of Lundy to tell me it never happened. http://www.lundyisland.co.uk/ - http://www.lundyisland.co.uk/ does say that Lundy was occupied in 1625 & 1635 as I said in the previous post.


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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2007 at 15:51
Here the page about Jan Jansen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon Also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon
 
Also i heard his son, Anthon Jansen Van Sale, moves to New-Amsterdam and buys Coney İsland? İs that true? Ermm


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DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2007 at 16:29
Originally posted by erkut

Here the page about Jan Jansen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon Also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon
 
Also i heard his son, Anthon Jansen Van Sale, moves to New-Amsterdam and buys Coney İsland? İs that true? Ermm
 
LOLLOLLOL  He couldn't get Nathan's kosher frankfurters at home.
 
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2007 at 21:05

Omar, the little synopsis on Lundy in the 1600s does not say what you interpreted. For 1625 the detail mentions a reported presence of some three "Turkish" pirates, hardly a fleet, and the "Turkish" appellation leaves much to be desired since the synopsis emphasizes that the event "aroused widespread alarm far out of proportion to the damage caused". In fact the royal inquiry into the event noted that the vessels were repulsed at Ilfracombe and the raiders were more or less confined to outlying adventure. The incident of 1635 dealt with the presence of Algerine rovers but then the island had been pretty well ravaged and plundered by the Spanish some 18 months earlier in 1633. That the isle was actually a "base" of operations is more than dubious and given naval realities of the 17th century the activities of corsairs and pirates can hardly be construed as "national" efforts. In fact, the identification of the Dutchman calling himself Murat Reis (yes, it was he both in 1625 and 1635) as representing the naval power of the Sublime Porte is actually a bit comical. The false Murat was essentially sailing in waters he had known for most of his life so his presence at Lundy can hardly be termed a Turkish threat.

And here I give a note of warning on Dutch surnames: Janszon or Jansen encompasses several known Dutch mariners of the 17th century; however, Jan Jansen (aka Jan Jansz, Little John Ward, Murat Reis, Morat, John Barber, Captain John, Caid Morato) is not the navigator in Asia nor in any way associated with Coney Island! But, his career does form a chapter in an interesting book: Peter Lamborn Wilson. Pirate Utopias: Moorish Corsairs & European Renegadoes (2003 ed)). It is this book that serves as the source for much of the data on the Internet with regard to this false Murat Reis and is also the source for the Coney Island tale. In this regard I must attach a note on Lamborn Wilson's reputation as a purported historian:

"Peter Lamborn Wilson is a notorious underground intellectual who has written histories of heretical sufism, spiritual anarchism in Colonial America, hallucinogenic mushroom lore in Irish literature, and other traditions of autonomy in pre-modern and modern times. He lives in upstate New York."

Here he is in all his glory, cortesy of YouTube:

  http://youtube.com/watch?v=i3cL1zAQry4 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=i3cL1zAQry4


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Posted By: Sikander
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:45
Omar, that piece of article from Wiki must obviously be wrong.
For instance, the Ottomans never occupied Madeira (and the Spanish king - he rulled Portugal as well - wouldn't ever allow it). They did raid the Portuguese shores, including the island, looking for small ships, but that was it.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 08:46
It is a bit illusory to speak of "Ottomans" when, frankly, the Turkish presence in the Maghrib was more nominal than real and actually a function of the internal politics in the region. Further, everyone is ignoring the Moroccan sharifate. Actually, in the long view, the events in the Western Mediterranean can be explained as a continuation of the much older conflict of Al-Andalus and frankly, after Lepanto, one can not speak of a formal Turkish naval presence, period. Besides just as "raids" could depart from Muslim sites such as Sale and Algiers, so too the Christians from Tangier, Ceuta, Melilla, and Oran, not to mention the Canaries.

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Posted By: Scott38
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 20:26
I am a direct descendant of Anthony Jansen Van Salle he is generally thought to be the son of Jan Jansen Van Haarlem (aka "Morat Rais").  Anthony was a less than admirable individual and was constantly in trouble with the New Amsterdam Dutch authorities as was his wife Grietje Reyniers.  They were the subject of a novel "The Drowning Room" by Michael Pye.   Anthony is called "The Turk" in colonial Dutch records which would tend to lend some credence to his relationship with Jan.   There is a difference of opinion on the parentage of Anthony.  Some state he was born in Morrocco while others think he was born in the Netherlands.   His brother Abraham Van Salee also lived in New Amsterdam.  While Many prominent individuals including the Vanderbilts and Jackie Kennedy were Van Salee descendants.   
Anthony owned about 250 acres opposite of Coney Island.   I beleive that he did eventually receive part if not Coney Island.   It  was known as "Turk's Island."  There is so much written on the family and so little that is documented.  A lot is theory and conjecture at this point.   If anyone has more documented sources I would be glad to know of them.  I am especially interested in the marriage record o Anthony.  It is said Anthony had a Koran that was in his family until modern times at least.  I have found no one that has ever seen it or claims to own it.  It was said to be sold at auction within the past fifty years or so.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 20:36
Don't forget the Turks and Caicos islands Big smile

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      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine



Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 18:54
Yeap Scott is there any relation between your grand-grand-grandpa and Turks and Caicos İslands ? :)

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DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !


Posted By: Scott38
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 20:34
Hello.  I am not aware of a connection to Caicos islands but I am by no means an expert.  Anthony Jansen Van Salee was called a "Turk" but this was not a literal term. He is also called  "mulatto" in New Amsterdam records.  It appears his connection to Jan is based on coincidence of his having obviously been in Morocco thus the "Van Salee" designation.  Anthony died in late 1675 or very early 1676.


Posted By: Cailte
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 15:05
I don't know about the Caicos islands, but it's also believed that Jan Jansen Van Haarlem / Sale was appointed Governor of Sale by Moulay Zidan - the emperor of Morocco of that time - and later of Oualidia, near Safi. It's believed he lived out the rest of his days there.
 
Scott: There are also those that believe that Jansen had three wives: his first, dutch wife, his second, a moorish woman and finally, one of the sultan's daughters - the product of His Royal Loins and Concubine X. There are those that believe that Anthony was born in Cartagena, Spain, from JJVS's moorish wife, but who's to say what's really what? While court records/transcripts give us a good idea as to just how much land he owned and when, I think they also help give us a better understanding of the kind of person he was. In my opinion, the fact that he was in court often does not automatically make him a disreputable person, nor do any of the accusations brought against him. He was a wealthy, visible minority living in a time and place where rumors abounded. One constant that seems to follow him throughout his life in the New World is the contempt and jealousy of his neighbours, whom were always trying to steal from him, whether they were after his cattle, letting their animals graze in his fields or outright encroaching upon on his land.
 
There are those that will try to sound intelligent, swearing by their favorite author's authenticity while they ridicule any idea which is new to them, and that with the fervor of a religious zealot, without ever having an iota of actual proof. Please, people, try to keep an open mind about things and don't take their drivel as canon. A lot can happen in four or five hundred years. Many revelatory documents can be lost or misinterpreted, and it would be a big mistake to swear by something just because someone who sounded "smart" said it.
 
My Dutch connection survived the centuries from ear to mouth and so on through several generations of illiteracy. After researching the fact, it's funny to say, but I find that a lot of these family stories hold more truth than any internet "knowitall" working out of their mom's basement ever could.
 
Respectfully yours,
 
MDLP
 
Another descendant of JJVS.


Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 16:00

It can be. For example Piri Reis (Turkish Captain) you know had an map about world . We can see on this map the Piri Reis went to America continent before Americo vespuci, Cristof Coulomb and etc..

Because in Piri Reis' map the America and Africa totally droven.
 
Thank you!


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We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 00:52
I own a map of South America too, but I've never been there.

Because Piri Reis had a map does not mean he went there. He could have stolen it from someone who went there, he could have sent a spy there with another ship, he could have sent a scout there.


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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor


Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 16:48
Hey guy! You can't say he stole that map. Please choose the words carefully!!
A lot of source says, there aren't a map without Piri Reis' map. A lot source says Piri Reis was discovered there.


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We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK


Posted By: Scott38
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 18:12
I probably should have not stated that Anthony Jansen was "less than admirable."  It is true that my ancestor, his son-in-law, Thomas Southard had problems with him.  
 I have seen the varied speculation about the mother of Anthony.  I have even seen somewhere mention of a birth record in Holland for him.  That might have been on an ancestry.com chart.  There is a wealth of speculation on there.  Perhaps someday DNA testing will be advanced enough to solve the parentage of Anthony.   The apparent ownership of the Koran by Anthony might be true but he apparently could not read or write.  So much that is known about him is based on theory.   The New Amsterdam records are the best, albeit not perfect, source that I have found.    If anyone has examined records in the Netherlands I would certainly be grateful to know about it.


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 18:48
Originally posted by MythTR

It can be. For example Piri Reis (Turkish Captain) you know had an map about world . We can see on this map the Piri Reis went to America continent before Americo vespuci, Cristof Coulomb and etc..

The Piri Reis map was created in 1513, over 20 years after Columbus' voyage. Vespucci died the year before it was created.

The coastlines it depicts are mostly identical to those in the Cantino map, depicting Cabral's exploration of the New World coastlines, which was stolen from Portugal in 1502 by an Italian man named Alberto Cantino.

It also resembles the Waldseemuller map, which was published in 1507 (six years before Piri Reis).

The only thing particularly remarkable about Piri Reis' map is that it shows a southern landmass that some believe resembles Antarctica - although the practice of including an unknown southern continent, "Terra Incognita", was very old among medieval cartographers. 



Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 09:36
Originally posted by MythTR

Hey guy! You can't say he stole that map. Please choose the words carefully!!


Of course he can say so. It doesn't violate the CoC. You should rephrase that sentence since it sounds like a threat.

Who is to say if it's true or not? Piri Reis was a pirate after all (among other things), of course he stole, that's what pirates do.


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Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.


Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 20:31
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by MythTR

It can be. For example Piri Reis (Turkish Captain) you know had an map about world . We can see on this map the Piri Reis went to America continent before Americo vespuci, Cristof Coulomb and etc..

The Piri Reis map was created in 1513, over 20 years after Columbus' voyage. Vespucci died the year before it was created.

The coastlines it depicts are mostly identical to those in the Cantino map, depicting Cabral's exploration of the New World coastlines, which was stolen from Portugal in 1502 by an Italian man named Alberto Cantino.

It also resembles the Waldseemuller map, which was published in 1507 (six years before Piri Reis).

The only thing particularly remarkable about Piri Reis' map is that it shows a southern landmass that some believe resembles Antarctica - although the practice of including an unknown southern continent, "Terra Incognita", was very old among medieval cartographers. 

 
That was droven well know as Piri Reis' ?
Well known is it another continent?
 
 


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We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK


Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 20:34
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by MythTR

Hey guy! You can't say he stole that map. Please choose the words carefully!!


Of course he can say so. It doesn't violate the CoC. You should rephrase that sentence since it sounds like a threat.

Who is to say if it's true or not? Piri Reis was a pirate after all (among other things), of course he stole, that's what pirates do.
 
I don't know wheather your know ( or not) in Turkish, we use a sentence (it is a pattern like idiom )
 
The cat "which it doesn't reach to lung; kidney" says it is bad.  


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We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK



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