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A rather unknown, great military leader

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Early Modern & the Imperial Age
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Topic: A rather unknown, great military leader
Posted By: Qnzkid711
Subject: A rather unknown, great military leader
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 19:44

 Here is some info on the man who kept the Turks away from Albania and was a help to keeping them out of Western Europe:

 Gjergj Kastrioti (1405–January 17, 1468), better known as Skanderbeg, was an Albanian who united his people and resisted the expanding Ottoman Empire for 25 years and is today considered a national hero of Albania.

He was born in Krujė, Albania; his father was an Albanian nobleman, Gjon Kastrioti, lord of Middle Albania. The Kastrioti family are originally from the Northern Alps of Albania but later migrated to middle Albania where they became noblemen, lording over Kruja.  


Obliged by the Ottomans to pay tribute to the Empire, and to ensure the fidelity of local rulers, Gjon Kastrioti's sons were taken by the Sultan to his court as hostages. In 1423, Gjergj Kastrioti and his three brothers were taken by the Turks. He attended military school and led many battles for the Ottoman Empire. He was awarded for his military victories with the title Iskander Bey (Albanian transliteration: Skėnderbeu, English transliteration: Skanderbeg). In Turkish this title means Lord or Prince Alexander (in honor of Alexander the Great). Skanderbeg soon switched sides and came back to his native land to successfully defended Albania against the Ottoman Empire until his death.

He was distinguished as one of the best officers in several Ottoman campaigns both in Asia Minor and in Europe, and the Sultan appointed him General. He even fought against Greeks, Serbs and Hungarians, and some sources claim that he used to maintain secret links with Ragusa, Venice, Ladislaus V of Hungary and Alfonso I of Naples. Sultan Murad II gave him the title Vali that made him the General Governor of some provinces in central Albania. He was respected everywhere but he missed his country. After his father died, Skanderbeg was looking for a way to return to Albania and lead his countrymen against the Ottoman armies. It is because of Skanderbeg's 25 year defiance of the Ottoman Empire that perserved Christianity in Albania to this day. The Turks were successful in converting almost 90% of Albania into Muslims. Those who chose to resist Turkish rule and embrace their Albanian heritage and perserve their culture are today's Albanian Christians.

In 1443, Skanderbeg saw his opportunity during the battle against the Hungarians led by John Hunyadi in Nis. He switched sides along with other Albanians serving in the Ottoman army. He eventually captured Kruje, his father's seat in Middle Albania. Above the castle he rose the Albanian flag, a red flag with a black two-headed eagle, and pronounced the words: "I have not brought you liberty, I found it here, among you." He managed to unite all Albanian princes at the town of Lezhė (see League of Lezhė, 1444) and united them under his command to fight against the Ottomans. He fought a guerilla war against the opposing armies by using the mountainous terrain to his advantage.

During the next 25 years, with forces rarely exceeding 20,000, he fought against the most powerful army of the time. In June 1450 an Ottoman army numbering approximately 150,000 and led by the Sultan Murad II in person, laid siege to Kruja. Leaving a protective garrison of 1,500 men under one of his best lieutenants, Kont Urani, or Vranakonti, Scanderbeg harassed the Ottoman camps around Kruja as well as the caravans coming to supply the Sultan's army. By September the Ottoman camp was in disarray as morale sunk and diseases spread as wild fire. Grudgingly, Sultan Murad finally acknowledged that the castle of Kruja would not have fallen by only strength of arms, so he decided to lift his encampment and make his way to Edirne. Soon thereafter he died and his son Mehmed was crowned Sultan.

For the next five years Albania was allowed some respite as the new Sultan, Mehmed II, set out to conquer the last vestiges of the Byzantine Empire in Europe and Asia Minor. The first test between the Ottoman Sultan and Skanderbeg came in 1455 during the Siege of Berat, where the former defeated the latter by decimating the Albanian army and leaving five-thousand dead in the field of battle, some 40-50% of all Albanian mobile forces. This was the worst military defeat that Skanderbeg had suffered and would ever suffer during his career.

In 1457, an Ottoman army numbering approximately 70,000 men invaded Albania and set out to destroy Albanian resistance once and for all. The army was led by Isa beg Evrenoz, the only commander to have defeated Scanderbeg in battle and Hamza Kastrioti, Scanderbeg’s own nephew. After wreaking much damage to the countryside, destroying crops, plundering and murdering, the Ottoman army set camp at the Ujebardha field (literally WhiteWater), halfway between Lezha and Kruja. There, in September, after having evaded the enemy for months, Skanderbeg attacked and utterly destroyed the Ottomans. His own forces did not exceed fifteen thousand men.

In 1461 Skanderbeg launched a successful campaign against the Angevin noblemen and their allies who sought to destabilize King Ferdinand of Naples. After securing the Neapolitan kingdom, a crucial ally in Skanderbeg’s struggle, he returned home. In 1464 Skanderbeg fought and defeated Ballaban Badera, an Albanian renegade. However, this battle became famous for another reason. Ballaban Pasha did not succeed in defeating Scanderbeg, but was successful in capturing a large number of Albanian army commanders, some of the bravest, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, Scanderbeg’s best cavalry commander; Vladan Giurica, his chief army economist; Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew, and 18 more noblemen and army captains. These men, after they were captured, were dispatched immediately to Istanbul and skinned alive for fifteen days. Scanderbeg’s pleas to have these men back, by either ransoming them or setting free all Ottoman prisoners in Albania, were to no avail.

In 1466 Sultan Mehmed II led the army himself and laid siege to Kruja, who was defended by a 4,400 men strong garrison led by Prince Tanush Thopia. After several months, Mehmed saw that trying to take Kruja was an exercise in futility left and went home. He, however, left a besieging force of forty thousand men under Ballaban Pasha to keep Kruja under siege until it fell. To support this force he built a castle in central Albania and named it El-Basan (which eventually became the modern city of Elbasan). This second siege was successful any more than the first was and soon enough Scanderbeg annihilated it, including its commander Ballaban Pasha, who fell under victim of the new modern firearms.

A few months later, in 1467 Mehmed, frustrated by his inability to subdue little Albania, came again at the head of the largest army of his time. Kruja was besieged a third time, but in a different way. While a contingent kept the city and its forces pinned down, Ottoman armies came pouring from Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece with the aim of keeping the whole country surrounded, thereby strangling Scanderbeg’s supply routes and limiting his movements. While fight went on Scanderbeg fell ill with malaria in the Venetian held city of Lezhe, and died on January 17, 1468, just as the army under the leadership of Leke Dukagjini defeated a Ottoman force in Shkodra.

The Albanian resistance went on after the death of Scanderbeg for an additional ten years led by Leke Dukagjini. In 1478 the fourth siege of Kruja proved successful for the Ottomans, though through no strength of arms. Bent down by hunger and lack of supplies after a year long siege, the defenders surrendered to Mehmed, who had promised them to leave unharmed as long as they handed over the castle. As the Albanians were walking away with their families, the Ottomans preyed on them killing all the men and enslaving the women and children. A year later the Ottomans captured Shkodra, the last free Albanian castle, albeit under Venetian control, but the Albanian resistance continued sometimes organized and sometimes sporadically until 1500.

LEGACY

After his death from natural causes in 1468 in Lezhė, his soldiers resisted the Turks for the next 12 years. In 1480 Albania was finally conquered by the Ottoman Empire. When the Turks found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas church of Lezhe, they opened it and held his bones like talismans for luck. The same year, they invaded Italy and conquered the city of Otranto.


Skanderbeg's posthumous fame was not confined to his own country. Voltaire thought the Byzantine Empire would have survived had it possessed a leader of his quality. A number of poets and composers have also drawn inspiration from his military career. The French sixteenth-century poet Ronsard wrote a poem about him, as did the nineteenth-century American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Antonio Vivaldi composed an opera entitled Scanderbeg.

Skanderbeg today is the National Hero of Albania. Many museums and monuments are raised in his honor around Albania, among them the Skanderbeg Museum next to the castle in Krujė.

Skanderbeg is founder of Castriota Scanderbeg family which is today part of Italian nobility.



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"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.



Replies:
Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 02:17
yes, this brave man Kastrioti or Kastriota is rather unknown and you only seem to come across him when you read about the Ottomans.
A tip of the hat to Hunyadi, a good warrior and pest to the Ottomans as well. Thanks for sharing.



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 02:22

This is more appropriate place for this topic.

Of course George Kastrioti is an important figure but his biography above fails to mention that he and Hunyadi were routed by the sultan at the second Battle of Kosovo (1448) wich effectivelly imposed Ottoman dominance over the Balkans. Albanian submission was only a matter of time after that and when it happened Albanians converted to Islam en-masse.



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 15:14
this is still medieval period, not renaissance...


Posted By: Qnzkid711
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 19:38
I thought I put this on the Greek, Roman and Mediterranean forum?


Posted By: J.M.Finegold
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 19:56
Yiannis moved it.

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http://modernwarstudies.net - Modern Military History Forums


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 01:30

Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

this is still medieval period, not renaissance...

 

The beginning is medieval, the end however is renaissance. I had to make a choice!

Yes, I moved it from Greek/Roman forum since it's not in the timeframe of that era.



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 01:44
or the beginning is renaissance, the end however is medieval.


Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 10:45
Don't the Epirotes claim that the guy was Greek?

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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 07-May-2005 at 22:09

Quote Of course George Kastrioti is an important figure but his biography above fails to mention that he and Hunyadi were routed by the sultan at the second Battle of Kosovo (1448) wich effectivelly imposed Ottoman dominance over the Balkans. Albanian submission was only a matter of time after that and when it happened Albanians converted to Islam en-masse.

Scanderbeg was not at the Second battle of Kosovo. he remained neutral at that point.

Quote Don't the Epirotes claim that the guy was Greek?

This is BS from "Vorio Hpeiros" propaganda. I wont go into in detail, but they claim that due to him, in a few mentions, stating that he was an Epirotians he fought for the Greeks and not the Albanians and the reason he remains Albanias hero today was because the land he protected is now occupied by us. This is BS as he, in many letters, made mentions of his Albanianess and at the time origins in the west were really only based on where the people were living. There was a very high population of Albanians in that area and so by the west they were called "epirotians". There was no historical significance to it and Scanderbeg used it to his popitical liking. Similarly, the slavic nations that lived up north were considered Illyrian due to the fact that they made up what was once the Illyrian province of the Roman Empire.

His ethnicity is "officially" half serb and Albanian but the serb part is also questionable as Viosvodina(his mother) came from an heavily Albanian populated area and the slavs and albanians there intermixed. So she was also likely part albanian. Recent evidence from Scanderbeg living ancestors(whom reside in Italy today as part of  the "Castriota Scanderbeg" family) have found the link of Scanderbeg to Albanians and will be providing the evidence of it to the tirana museum. Here is another source of Scanderbeg mentioning his "albanianess" in a letter that has now been translated to english.

http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm - http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm

and from a heraldic source http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm - http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm

 

Quote The Kastrioti or Castriota family, of Albanian origin, begins with certainty with John Castriota, lord of Mat and Vumenestia, who died in 1443.

The family still exists. The current (or at least recent) head of the family of Castriota-Scanderbeg lives at "Napoli: via G. Cotronei 2", while his uncle lives at "Napoli: villa Scanderbeg, via Napoli 119 bis; La Pietra- Bagnoli (Napoli)". They bear the arms d'oro all'aquila bicipite, coronata sulle due teste di nero, col volo abbassato, alla punta d'azz., movente dal lembo superiore dello scudo, rovesciata e caricata di una stella (6) d'oro (which translates into Or an double-headed eagle, wings abaisse, crowned on both heads sable, on a pile azure a mullet or.)

A brother of George Castriota Scanderbeg was Stanisha (Staniscia), who left a son Branilo.

Sources:

Enciclopedia Italiana.
Enciclopedia Storico-Nobiliare Italiana.
Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani.
Charles Hopf: Chroniques Gréco-Romaines. Berlin, 1873.
Foscarini, Amilcare: l' Armerista delle famiglie nobili e notabili in terra d'Otranto, 1927.

In the end.

 -United Albanian clans & Princes
- Formed the state of Arber/Albania
- Married an Albanian lady
- Fought for the independence of Albanian lands and protected them for a quarter century
- Died as an Albanian because his heart and actions spoke Albanian. Gave national character to the Albanian resistence against Ottomans.
- It is recorded to fight even agaisnt Greek and Serb landlords

He was Albanian




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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 08-May-2005 at 22:50
can't believe it taht they say scanderbeg was Greek... and they say Albanians mess around with Propaganda...whatta bunch of hypocrites

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 09-May-2005 at 15:24
Scanderbeg is also claimed by some Bulgarian nationalists(claiming his mother was Bulgarian), Serbian(climing his mother was a Serb) and FYROMIANS.

but much like all historical claimers. its mostly limited to super-nationalists.


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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 02:04

Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO Iskender Bey ALBO wrote:

This is BS from "Vorio Hpeiros" propaganda...

Instead of using such language and claiming false things, I suggest that you read further to find out what Voria Ipiros means to us Epirotes and Greeks in general. Kastrioti's origin has little to do with the history of the people of Epirus, since he mainly fought in territories inhabited by Albanian populations. The northern frontier that separated Epirus from ancient Illyria was river Devolis.

After all, Kastrioti was a defender of Christian legacy and culture in the western Balkans, I don't really think he viewed himself as Albanian. We all know that Albanian nationalism rose in the beginning of the 20th century. Muslim Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks, were fierce enemies of Christianity in general in the territories they controlled or lived in and I don't think they really appreciated Skenderbey before the founding of the modern Albanian state.

By the way, you know that in Himarra the Albanian authorities are absent? May I remind you the mutinies of the Himarriotes during every electoral period in Albania? Just in case you still think it's BS...

Photo taken from the liberation of Northern Epirus, during the Balkan Wars 1912-1913.

 

 

 



Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 13:56
Originally posted by Molossos Molossos wrote:

Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO Iskender Bey ALBO wrote:

This is BS from "Vorio Hpeiros" propaganda...

Instead of using such language and claiming false things, I suggest that you read further to find out what Voria Ipiros means to us Epirotes and Greeks in general. Kastrioti's origin has little to do with the history of the people of Epirus, since he mainly fought in territories inhabited by Albanian populations. The northern frontier that separated Epirus from ancient Illyria was river Devolis.

After all, Kastrioti was a defender of Christian legacy and culture in the western Balkans, I don't really think he viewed himself as Albanian. We all know that Albanian nationalism rose in the beginning of the 20th century. Muslim Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks, were fierce enemies of Christianity in general in the territories they controlled or lived in and I don't think they really appreciated Skenderbey before the founding of the modern Albanian state.

By the way, you know that in Himarra the Albanian authorities are absent? May I remind you the mutinies of the Himarriotes during every electoral period in Albania? Just in case you still think it's BS...

Photo taken from the liberation of Northern Epirus, during the Balkan Wars 1912-1913.

The defence of Christianity of George kastrioti came second after the defense of his homeland. Even it is recorded that although he adopted the double headed eagle from the byzatines he did so because this was of symbolic importance of Albanians themselves. The double heads signified the unification of the Gegs and Tosks and the eagle well (in albanian the eagle = Shqiponja), (albanian = Shqiptar) so its pretty clear why the eagle was a good choice too. It is known that many muslims also fought in his army, muslims who resent the Sultan as well as Albanian converts who had accept islam ...he never discriminated against them as long as they fought against the Ottomans... he spared his own flesh and blood Hamza pasha after catching him alive and many others who had defected to the Ottomans after they were captured.



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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 14:52

Quote After all, Kastrioti was a defender of Christian legacy and culture in the western Balkans, I don't really think he viewed himself as Albanian. We all know that Albanian nationalism rose in the beginning of the 20th century. Muslim Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks, were fierce enemies of Christianity in general in the territories they controlled or lived in and I don't think they really appreciated Skenderbey before the founding of the modern Albanian state.

Nice selective reading. However you completely failed to look up one is letters to the prince of Tarraco where he specifically called himself an Albanian. This is also not the only one. There are many others that he has acknowledged this also. They are in the hands of the Kastrioti family now in Italy. As soon as his new book is released be sure to check some of them for some closure.

Quote Kastrioti's origin has little to do with the history of the people of Epirus

Because, oh so knowledgable, Greek claims on Scaderbeg did not really being until this "Northern Epirus" issue came up.

 

Albanians have always appreciated Scanderbeg. You see, we have have a certain history with religion. We tend to go with the flow. Meaning switch religion as the advantages of it go up and down. When ottomans came we switched to Islam so we could avoid heavy taxation and rule ourselves. Makes perfect sense to me.

Yes the picture of a few Greeks during the Balkan wars really does it.

Yes Himara does have absent Albanian control. But thats only because Albania is still pretty damn poor and thats a relatively hard to reach area from central Albania and greeks have easy influence on the area through Corfu.

 Anyway, Albanians were enemies of christianity huh? How so? Albanian revolts against ottoman control went on very well into the 17th century. Albanian generals went on to fight with the Pope or against the Ottomans by joining with the northern German armies.

Scanderbeg's rebellion wasnt the only one. Albanian rebellions prevented Mehmed II from geting his army ready to invade Italy and mountain Albanian tribes refused to give any support to the Turks by not allowing them to build roads to their areas and by refusal to give soldiers and pay taxes.

 

So you see. We don't "all know." You just don't know anything. Now enough of this. This is a Scanderbeg discussion. Not a "Northern Epirus" one.

 



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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 22:42
I recall claiming that you are an atheist so the argument of switching sides according to interests seems perfect to me. Only this is called lack of morality and religious/national conscience. But after all, your nation was created a century before. I didn't expect you to be such a strong supporter of anything that has to do with such meanings.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 22:57

Quote Only this is called lack of morality and religious/national conscience

Yes you are correct I am an athiest. However I am speaking for the Albanian population in general. Which is mainly made up of agnostics(which probably make up a heavy % of what people consider a 70% majority), Catholics and Orthodox. My mother is the case where she does not care what church she attends, just as long as she can get to a church.

Quote Only this is called lack of morality and religious/national conscience.

You are mistaking the national conscious of Albania with that of Greece. Our national concious does not go by religion. They are two different words to us. As a famous Albanian poet said "look not to the church or mosque for pietism, the religion of Albania is Albanianism.". We do not associate our national conciousness with religion. Its how three different religions can get along in Albania. Greece national conciousness is defined by its religion. And its how people in the Greek press, likes of Nick Gage, can claim over 200,000 something(dunno its different with every damn estimate) "Greek" minority in "Northern Epirus". Simply because it believes that everyone who is an orthodox there is a Greek since Albanian orthodox do not have their separate church(like Serbia or FYROM). We rely on Greek archbishops.

 We luckly have had a great one since 93(Anastasios) who had kicked out and went against many of these Greek nationalists who have made these claims on Southern Albania. Unfortunately as great as he is he wont last for all that much longer as he is already rather old. This is why I will push forward for Orthodox followers in Albania should break-off and create their own church.

Quote But after all, your nation was created a century before.

Okay....And Greece was created just over 60 years before us..... That means what?

Quote I didn't expect you to be such a strong supporter of anything that has to do with such meanings.

With any hope, you will never see Albania having anything to do with such meanings, we don't need religion to dictate our political and moral world.

Molossos, unless you have anything constructive to say stop posting as this is becoming very tiring. This is a topic about Scanderbeg. You have questions or want to say something about him go ahead. If not then there are other topics you can go and attack us as much as youd like, Im sure Phallanx will be with you on the whole thing.



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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 10:56
Iskender Bey ... in this life you can be sure of two things..first you will die oneday.. and second that Molossus and Phallanx will ALWAYS no matter what the topic is come back to Greece and Albanian issues,

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 18:22
Quote However you completely failed to look up one is letters to the prince of Tarraco where he specifically called himself an Albanian. This is also not the only one.


Actually he says nothing about Albanians in his letter and it wasn't prince Tarraco it was addressed to Jiovanni Antonio the prince of TARANTO.

"Our ancestors were EPIROTIANS, from which PYRROS the king was born. Who won the Romans and occupied Taranto and other cities of Italy. You do not have fighters to resist the EPIROTIAN courage"
(Georgios Kastriotis. K.Pangel, p156,1860)

So according to you Pyrros and the Epirotes were also Albanians???
Don't think so.

We also know that Pope Pius B' tells us that the Kastiotes were Macedonians that ruled in Emathia. His parent were princess Voisave of Serbia and John Kastriotis prince of Emathia.

I really don't see why his origin is of such interest to you. Would he be less of a hero to you and your people if you knew he was a Serb, Bulgarian or a German????
What should be of interest is his heroic deeds for the lands and people  he ruled.
Quote Anyway, Albanians were enemies of christianity huh? How so? Albanian revolts against ottoman control went on very well into the 17th century. Albanian generals went on to fight with the Pope or against the Ottomans by joining with the northern German armies.

You obviously forgot all about the TOURK-ALBANIANS like Ali Pasha, Ali Farmaki..............any simple search on the Ottoman empire will show you that the Albanians were actually the ones that did all the dirty work for the Ottomans.

Actually we know of the fact that just before the war of independence,  Theodoros Kolokotronis attempts to form an aliance with the "TOYRKALBANIAN" Ali Farmaki, asking him to stop the massacre and plunder of the Hellinic villages and form an alliance with him to get rid of the Ottoamns.

Anyone that knows the area of MANI (Sparta) must know of "Mpardounia" were we could find the later known as "Tourko-Mpardouniotes".
Known throughout the region's history to have been populated by Albanians, mortal enemies of the Maniates.
Later this region was continuously "refueled" with converted Albanians and was used as a base from which Ottoman attacks on the rebelous Maniates continuously began.






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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 18:29

Phallanx. Thats weak.
HE CALLED HIMSELF Albanian. Do you think people had who originated from who then? For godssakes the Illyrian language was thought to be slavic then. Guess why? Because they were living in the area that was once the province Illyricum.

Quote I really don't see why his origin is of such interest to you. Would he be less of a hero to you and your people if you knew he was a Serb, Bulgarian or a German????
What should be of interest is his heroic deeds for the lands and people  he ruled.
>>

It doesnt really. >>

 However Ill listen to the words of his two decendants who have stated that they have found his ties to his Albanian origin and will present it to the Tirana museum. They have written this is in a preface of a new Italian book on Scanderbeg. This one: http://www.arbitalia.it/stampa/pubblicazioni/2003/scanderbeg_un.eroe.moderno.htm - http://www.arbitalia.it/stampa/pubblicazioni/2003/scanderbeg _un.eroe.moderno.htm >>

And he stated he was Albanian, what else he mentioned about being Epiriot has no meaning as it involves the old past. Which he more then very likley had very little linguistical and ethnological knowledge in.

Quote You obviously forgot all about the TOURK-ALBANIANS like Ali Pasha, Ali Farmaki
>>

Turk-Albanians. Exactly. Ali was an Albanian who came up in ranks in the Ottoman Empire. Like quite a few others. And? Out fighting against them was well over by then. While he did fight help fight against you guys in the Independence he is more known for restoring Egypt after it was left in pieces from Napoleon.

Quote Later this region was continuously "refueled" with converted Albanians.
>>

Quote Actually we know of the fact that just before the war of independence,  Theodoros Kolokotronis attempts to form an aliance with the "TOYRKALBANIAN" Ali Farmaki, asking him to stop the massacre and plunder of the Hellinic villages and form an alliance with him to get rid of the Ottoamns.
>>

Actually while I have heard about him as I dont recall him being of any relevance to Albanian history.

 

Once again. Phallanx, you and your buddy there have managed to desacrate a topic and made it into a nationality fest. This has nothing to do with "Turko-Albanians", Greek Independance, "North Epirus" or Epiriots. It has to do witha man who stated he was Albanian and his people were the Albanians, fought for Albania, his army was made up almost entirely of Albanian soldiers with Venetians here and there and some Slavs(who in one occasion betrayed us and caused some of our worst casualties). That man was Gjergj Kastrioti, the Albanian national hero. Ofcourse this place seems to be your personal playground so you have every right to disrupt it. Why do you and a few other Turks here have a habit of doing that?

 



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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 19:22
I'm not in here to "desacrate" any kind of topic, unlike you and your buddy vulcan02 like to believe.
You mentioned the prince of Taranto, I simply corrected. Is that "desacration"?
In your eyes maybe, I see it as historic facts.

As for the link you provide, unfortunately my knowledge of Italian is next to nothing so I used an online translator:

"Great prince of the Albania that in the ' 400 saved its country from the continuous ones tried you of invasion of the Turks, most powerful armed with the world narrates of George Castriota Scanderbeg the small imbattibile epoca.L' to the final drammaturgica work the scale of Scannerebecco describes to the rebirth of the hero thanks to the love rievocativo and ritualizzato of the generations to come, than they do not forget it and they pray for its riemergere from the world of aldilà.Il the drama is preceded from one series of introductory tests: the history of Scanderbeg and the wonders of its strategy in the light of the art of the guerrilla of Chinese master Sun Tzu; the legal and focloriche traditions skipetare and arbëreshë; the spirit Muslim of Albania above all through the tradition of dervisci the Bektashi; the didascalica introduction to the construction of the teatrale work."

Where exactly does this prove his origin???
All I see is prince of Albania, which means nothing. We know of Armenian emperors during the Byzantine. Does it mean that since he ruled the empire he's Hellinic in origin? NO, still don't get it, what diference does it make???
As for Ali Farmaki and the Turk-Albanians it was a simple answer to your comment of Albanians allegedly always confronting the Ottomans.

Why get all fussy about it, did you really think you can post anything and not one of the users will have a diferent opinion or in this case facts?


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 19:34
I was talking about the book. Thats just the back-page intro.....
I didnt say we always did. I said up to the 17th century Albanians(especially Northern Ghegs) continually fought agaisnt Ottoman control. How do you think many of the 10% catholic minority kept their religion?


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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 21:45
Originally posted by Phallanx Phallanx wrote:

Quote However you completely failed to look up one is letters to the prince of Tarraco where he specifically called himself an Albanian. This is also not the only one.



You obviously forgot all about the TOURK-ALBANIANS like Ali Pasha, Ali Farmaki..............any simple search on the Ottoman empire will show you that the Albanians were actually the ones that did all the dirty work for the Ottomans.



Yes but it was Albanians like Marco Bocari that won Greece its independence as well. Ali Pasha was Albanian and he was a brutal tyrant, if you havent read it yet I advise you read this book by Ibrahim Manzur Efendi(a Frenchman whom Ali Pasha kept as a prisoner and advisor) most of the killings that he committed were against other Pashas who were albanians and their supporting villages also albanian. In fact he had Greek advisors in his court whom he never trusted of course.
Greeks have served under the ottomans as well. Sultan Suleymans right hand man, a childhood friend and most influential Pasha was a converted Greek.. i believe his name was Mustapha... he later killed him because he became so important he was threatening his position as Sultan.



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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 21:52
Yes but it was Albanians like Marco Bocari

Stop stop. Its this character, history claiming thats annoying the hell out of people.


-------------
Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 21:53
its not a claim... Marko Bocari..... neither is a Greek name... especially Bocari.

-------------
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 19-May-2005 at 00:44
Quote Yes but it was Albanians like Marco Bocari

Stop stop. Its this character, history claiming thats annoying the hell out of people.

Very correct so please understand my need to answer to this.

Vulcan02, you should read more about who the Arvanites were.

"Here secluded from the rest of the world, and before the Ottoman arms or the plundering Albanians invaded their peace, the family of the Bozzari ruled supreme, and Marco, tending his father's flocks, conceived those ideas of military glory of which were afterwards developed in combating  fro the liberties of Greece."
(
Burgess, Richard, "Greece and the Levant"p 78)

No one can deny the existance nor the significant assistance of some Albanians to the Hellinic War of Independance. That is one thing and the Arvanites a totally different thing.

As I've said before, the Arvanites were a Hellinic race of people from the area of Epirus, their very name comes from the ancient Hellinic district of Arvonos. Without getting into the details of 12th-17th cent. I'll only mention the letter of Jacomo Barbarrigo towards the Germans in 1479 where he mentions:

"The Arvanites and the Hellines are nothing more than the same people that hate every foreigner"

and the Venetian Senate in 1471 that declared :

"The major part of our mercenary troops are Hellines and Arvanites Hellines"

We have many examples of ethnic Albanians that never did convert to Islam while the vast majority of them did. Even so, we know that were never accepted in the Hellinic community.

Anyone from the area of MANI must know of "Mpardounia" were we could find the later known as "Turk-Mpardouniotes". Known throughtout the region's history to have been populated by Albanians mortal enemies of the Maniates even before they converted to Islam.
Later this region was continuously "refueled" with converted Albanians and was used as a base from which attacks on the rebelous Maniates continuously began.

We could mention K. Kolokotronis (father of Theodoros) in numerous battles with them, as his son is seen doing the exact same later in our history.

The immigration of Albanians is seen in the district of Thessaly near Fanario (Karditsa) at the end of the 14th cent. Where we find the Hellinic population demanding that neither M.Gaurilopoulos nor his decsendants bring any Albanians to the area and especially that there is no Frankish guard in the castle

Anyway, there are more than a few "Albanists" that wrongly among other claims, have reached the point to consider even the very name Mani to be Albanian from the word "Mene" = mulberry as if there is anyone that can claim that there is an abundance of such trees in the region.(see N.Meksis "Mani and the Maniates)

No one can deny that there was an Albanian population in Hellas.  We  know all about the Arnaoutoglou, the Lempesides, Mazrakaioi, Liopesi, Malakasaioi, the areas Spata, Pikermi and how they got their names.
Actually Menidi was the last area in Athens to be "Albanized" (dressed, spoke and acted as Albanians) in order to avoid the Ottomans. Sourmelis gives us a very clear discription of this.
(note that Menidi isn't an Albanian place name)
Later Tasos Neroutsos informs us of how the dukes Nerios and Antonio Atsaioli "transfered" the Albanians from working the fields of Athens to Euboia.

The fact that people spoke the Arvanitic dialect proves nothing. We have more than a few sources that clearly mention the Hellinic population speaking in Arvanitika to avoid being persecuted by the Ottomans (see Sourmelis, Neroutsos, Pukevil....)
In fact, V. Raphailidis tells us the Arvanitic dialect isn't "pure" Albanian but a corrupted idiom of Albanian.

The best source would be Georgios Tsebas "History of Thebes and Boiwtia from ancient times to today" 1928 Kadmos publications.
Where we find him explainig exactly how most of them were brought to Hellas, in order to "cover" the military losses of the continuous wars.
He continues by saying, that since these people were illeterate and since of course no schools did exist, they slowly but steadily influenced the local population untill their easy to learn language obviously prevailed the Hellinic.

Anyway, some of you should actually see that there are more things that connect us, than those that separate us. I suggest you hear the wise words of your own Bey Abdoul Selimi of "Delvino" (not sure what you call it) from his memoirs.

"NEVER should you fight against the Hellines should the Sultan demand,
even if the Hellinic troops come to our lands you should become their subjects and remain with them.
Should the Sultan give you weapons and ammo to fight the Hellines do NOT obey,
for you will find the fate of the Bosnians and be enslaved as they are to the Austrians, you will be killed,enslaved and lose your property.
The Hellines are just, have fair laws, stay with them.

You all have my blessing that you never fight the Hellines"

( first published by "Åöēģåńéäį" in 1879 by T.Pashalides "The Albanians and their future in Hellinism")



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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 19-May-2005 at 01:27
Originally posted by Phallanx Phallanx wrote:

[QUOTE]
The fact that people spoke the Arvanitic dialect proves nothing. We have more than a few sources that clearly mention the Hellinic population speaking in Arvanitika to avoid being persecuted by the Ottomans (see Sourmelis, Neroutsos, Pukevil....)
In fact, V. Raphailidis tells us the Arvanitic dialect isn't "pure" Albanian but a corrupted idiom of Albanian.

"NEVER should you fight against the Hellines should the Sultan demand,
even if the Hellinic troops come to our lands you should become their subjects and remain with them.
Should the Sultan give you weapons and ammo to fight the Hellines do NOT obey,
for you will find the fate of the Bosnians and be enslaved as they are to the Austrians, you will be killed,enslaved and lose your property.
The Hellines are just, have fair laws, stay with them.

You all have my blessing that you never fight the Hellines"

( first published by "Åöēģåńéäį" in 1879 by T.Pashalides "The Albanians and their future in Hellinism")



To avoid being persecuted by the Ottomans..??? so how did they learn this language anyway... just because it wasn't "pure" Albanian that doesn't mean anything... Albanian Kosvars dont speak "pure" ALbanian either... for example a Kosovar would have a  hard time understanding someone from the  south and visa-verse. Even for Northerners like me its hard to understand them as i have some Kosovo albos in my school. However just because he speaks corrupted Albanian that doesn't mean he's not Albanian.

Why would we be fighting Hellines then and now anyways. We don't try to impose our religion on anyone anyways whatever it be. Most of the people are content with the present Albania and its lands except those who lost their lands during WW1 partition of Albania. My great-grandfather willingly gave his lands to Greece for the Vorio-Epirote cause but not many others did this and they were simply confiscated.



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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 19-May-2005 at 17:15
What do you mean how did they learn the language??

Haven't you ever heard of language of commerce???

It's like questioning your origin on the fact that you speak fluent english or
 let's question the origin of Hellines and Albanians in Germany, Canada, USA, Australia........ simply because they are much more articulate in any other language than the Hellinic and Albanian.

If you read Balkan history you'll see that the Albanians were positioned in all the "top seats", police, tax selectors, governors etc.

Who mentioned you doing anything for religion?
You were paid to do it and you did. Simple.
Why did you convert?
For the "high seats" and better treatment.

As for now, that's something you should tell me, why did you side with the Italians and attack the people you were living in peace with since the Ottomans were kicked out of the Balkans?

What is this "Vorio-Epirote cause" your great-grandfather gave his lands for and why would we ask him for lands when based on the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 the area was Hellinic.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 00:15
first of all i did not convert im still christian "on paper" but since religion in my opinion is just an institution you can't blame us for being clever enought to realize a century earlier than you other people. I was never told or that i know of any significant Albanian offensive against Greece. Maybe ti was people like my Great-great grandfather who were promised their lands back by the Italians who decided to go against Hellas. But anyways that doesn't make much difference as the Nazi's conquered it anyways. 

-------------
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:01
No first of all you weren't around to say YOU never converted.
Your family's history is not the issue here as nor is your Hoxza enforced view of atheism relative to the topic.

You still didn't tell me why on earth would your great-grandfather gave his lands and what this "cause" was all about, since there are no historic records of any such "cause" nor movement.

You continuously speak of great grandfather and now great-great grandfather..
We're talking about 62 yrs ago. just exactly how many Albanian generations have past in the time limit of 60yrs???
Get your facts straight.

As for Albanian attrocities, maybe you need to open up a couple of objective history books and read about the Chams, what the Milistia was, the lead by the brothers Nuri and Nazr Dino  K.S.I.L.I.A was and how they massacred thousands of unarmed.
After you defeat in Oct.28 .1940 when the Germans finally managed to step foot in Hellas, you sided with them.

Feb.19.1942 the governor of Thesprotia G.Vasilakos is brutally murdered by the K.S.I.L.I.A
(I won't get into every murder it will just take toooooo long)

On June 27th 1943 the K.S.I.L.I.A troops lead by the Dino brothers attacked the villages of Fanarion and burnt down 519 houses, killed 823 people of which 231 were women all raped just before they were killed.

On Sept.29.1943 the eminet people of Paramythia were gathered forced to dig their own graves were executed.

The dates and events could go on, but I think you got the point.
It would be interesting to note that these same murderers rioted 3 weeks ago in front of the Albanian Parliament because their demand of claims on Hellinic lands was rejected by Parliament.

I'm sure you know about this.




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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 14:18

Anyway on topic, here is a heavily romanticized account of Scanderbeg's betrayal of the Turks at the Battle of Nish by  Joćo S. Clį Dias, in The Mother of Good Counsel of Genazzano. Keep in mind this was written by a very religious individual.  

To this day, the Albanians I respect the most are the catholic Albanians. All around them their friend, families etc were converting but they were the ones who defied the rest and maintained their identity. Not just that but unlike the Arbresh who fld their country to maintain their religion, these ones stayed and fought back wherever they could and their the ones who have created some of the best romantic stories in Albanian folk-tales. I see these guys are the ones who can trully admire Scanderbeg. Its not as much a matter of religion as a matter of defiance. Although I also see the side of the converts. Religion came second to them to the knowledge of having your family and yourself safe from persecution.

" The Moslem army was comprised of Greek and Slavic soldiers and as many other peoples as the sultan could enslave, all under forced regimentation. Many were Catholics who but awaited the right moment to free themselves from the Ottoman claws. These latter found themselves disheartened with fear in the painful exigency of having to fight against their brothers in the Faith.

    Scanderbeg hated the infidels’ yoke more than anyone else. In the proposed invasion of Hungary, he saw the providential moment to free himself and all those who wished to follow him. Thus, with some three hundred Catholic Albanians who were to be thrown into the fight against the troops of Hunyadi, he set about making a plan that would free them all.

    Eighty thousand soldiers under the command of Schahim Pasha advanced against the Magyars. Schahim Pasha was a bully who boasted with the arrogance and haughtiness proper to infidels: “My sword is a cloud that pours blood instead of water.” Hunyadi’s Catholic troops numbered just twenty thousand.

    On a cold November night, near Nish, the Hungarian vanguard caught sight of the heterogeneous Turkish horde. The warriors of the Cross silently eyed their enemy until the moment Constable Hunyadi joined them and gave the order to attack. Great shouts of enthusiasm resounded on the battlefield as the crusader’s cavalry hurtled forward in a furious charge. Clouds of arrows filled the sky. Taking advantage of the confusion of the first clash, Scanderbeg and his followers passed over to the side of the followers of the Cross of Christ.

    The first outcries of the Turks wounded by the Hungarians were joined by furious curses of hatred when they saw, to their amazement, that their own bey generalissimo was fighting side by side with Hunyadi.

    A tremendous confusion ensued. The Hungarians, fighting with increased strength, won the battle. Thirty thousand Moslems lay dead on the field and four thousand were taken prisoner.

    Among the captives was Amurath’s secretary of state with his retinue. When he was discovered among the prisoners, Scanderbeg forced him to write and sign a firman [a royal order or mandate]. This document ordered, in the sultan’s name, the Turkish government of Albania to hand over the government to the person presenting the document. With the document in hand, Scanderbeg had the secretary and his attendants put to the sword, thus rewarding them with the same fate that had befallen his brothers and servants some twenty years before.

    Invoking the protection of the Blessed Virgin, Scanderbeg and his Albanians rode seven days and nights to reach Kroia. The seventh night was already extending its mantle of stars over the sky when they entered the city.

    Once in the city, Scanderbeg secretly met with the most important Albanian residents, who promised to help him. As dawn broke, he entered the castle of the Turkish governor. Upon reading the document signed by the sultan’s secretary, the governor surrendered the stronghold without suspecting anything amiss. The following evening, Scander-beg and his Albanians entered the fortress and killed all the Mohammedans.

    Scanderbeg thus regained control of the territories that were his legitimate inheritance. He was ready to avenge the anti-Catholic despotism of the Islamics: their deceits, assassinations, abduction of Albanian women to serve in Turkish harems, and of Catholic youth to pervert and force into service as janizaries, unbearable taxes, and forcible impression of troops for the sultan’s armies.

    On November 13, 1443, after two decades of silence, church bells rang out. Catholic Albania, freed from the infidel’s yoke through the protection of Our Lady of Scutari, today known as the Mother of Good Counsel, rejoiced."



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Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 18:48

The name Kastriot is NOT of Greek origins. It comes from an area of northern Albania called Kastrati. -IOT is added to the name to signify a person from that area. Similar surname would be HimarIOT.

All about Kastrati here; http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/durham/albania/albania-III.html - http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/durham/albania/albani a-III.html

Not to mention info on Kastoria in Macedonia, where it was originally believed the Kastriot came from was ruled by Albanians till it fell to the Turks. http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/C2.5.html - http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/C2.5. html

Quote Armed forces of javascriptpenHotword('EA.2.2c.html');">Bulgarians and from the neighbouring state of Epirus and the empire of Nicaea were active in Kastoria and its vicinity during the 13th century. In the next century the city was occupied first by the javascriptpenHotword('EA.2.4.3a.html');">Serbs , then by the Albanians and finally, in 1386, by the Turks.



-------------
Albanian Proverb from the South
Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
Liberty has its roots in blood.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 20:47
OK, I do recall you saying:

Stop stop. Its this character, history claiming thats annoying the hell out of people.

First of all, Kastoria has NOTHING to do with the Kastriotis name.
The city name derives from the ancient Hellinic "Źįóōļń"="Kastor"= beaver.
It is interesting to note that even though I haven't managed to find any kind of records of beavers found in the lake, the city was renowned for its fur merchants since antiquity.

Second there is NO such record of his family origin to be from the city of Kastoria, every single record I've seen, mentions the once largely populated by Hellines city of Kruje in S.Albania (EPIROS). With one exeption being K.Pangel mentioned before but you obviously avoided to comment on that. (you know the letter to Jiovanni Antonio the prince of TARANTO."
In his book, Pangel mentions as the city of birth to be Veroia and interestingly enough his origin as Makedonian (not the Slav wanna-be's, you can be sure of that)

Anyway a simple search gave me some very interesting info.

Barletius Marinus' book "Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi, Epirotarum Principis," Rome ca. 1508-1510 (History of the life and deeds of Scanderbeg, prince of Epirus), was among the most widely read and translated works of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. In his whole book never once did he mention the Albanians.

Flavius Comnenus, gives as Skenderbeg's great-grandfather, one "Constantinus Castriotus, cognomento Meserechus, Emathia et Castoria Princeps"
Simple, great-grandfather = prince of Emathia
Great-grandson =
prince of Emathia

Interestingly enough the link you provide mentions this fact.
I also noticed that it notes:
"Skenderbeg was of Slav origin"

See anything about Albania??? Nope.

In Disraeli's book "The Rise of Iskander"

The battle scene during which Iskander calls upon his men,
"All who love their country, follow me!" and, with his five thousand Epirotes horsemen, abandons the battle and takes flight.  Iskander returns to Croia which he takes by a ruse.
The town is liberated to cries of "The Cross, The Cross! Liberty! Greece! Iskander and Epirus!"

Interestingly enough in his whole novel the word Albanian occurs only once. In a early description of the hero's clothes: "He wore also a full white camese common among the Albanians."

There are records of a letter to Alfonso
King of Aragon, Naples and Sicily, where Kastriotis also notes his Epirotean origin as in the previous addressed to Prince of Taranto.

The British historian C. Randall calls him "Grecian Hero", as do the Swedes Barrau and Rudbeck.

There is also a tragedy written by some T.Solvi (sp?) that makes a reference of him being a "Greco" in origin. But I couldn't find it and cross-check this source, so I won't give much credit to this until I do.



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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 21:31

Once again Phallanx, in that letter he calls himself an Albanian when he refers to his people being offended by the the Prince of Taranto. And the "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum,"(The first Albanian-Latin dictionary) only further shows the people who were there at the time. Not only that but Joseph Scaliger in 16th century, a Renaissance scholar who showed interest in Albania and Albanians said the language was spoken "In the mountains of Epirus".Yes there are tons of theories. But none of them match with the actual relation that Scanderbeg has with the Northern region of Albania, Kastri. In Mirdita or Kastrati nearby it.


 I decided to read a special book regaridng Scanderbeg, his origin etc. The special piece about the Kastrioti origin is written by Kristo Frashėri.

"The theories of an eventual slavic or greek origin of the Kastrioti clan has been rejected by science and it widely accepted, even in International historiography that Scanderbeg was ethnically albanian."

This is what we must conclude about the origin of the Kastrioti. There is although a theory that Voisava was serbian, thus making him half serb. But we must realise she might of been very well partially albanian since she was from the region of Tetova were there were significiant numbers of albanians!


"Marin Barleti traces the Kastrioti origin in Aemethia (modern Mati). In the contrary, in a chronicle from Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik), in the basis of old documents by P.Lukari (1605) and a bosniac collection published by E.Fermenxhim, tells us that the Kastrioti origin is from Hasi, were according to them there was a village named Kastrat (Castrati). "


But today there is no such village in Hasi, neither Kastriot nor Kastrat. Such villages do exist but not in Hasi, but other areas such as Dibra or the Great Highlands. Then there are other sources, documents which tells us that the Kastrioti had also another name, Masrek, Masrechius, Masrechij etc (clearly albanian anthroponym). There is even a village in Hasi named Mazrek which is also mentioned in the defters of 1571 in the form of Mazarak.

Fan Noli(an old Albanian Orthodox Archbishop of Albania) meant that the village must of been named Kastri, whereas they got the form "Kastrioti", like kaninjot from Kanina, himariot from Himara etc. He said that the village must of had been located either in the Great Highlands (Malėsia e Madhe), Mirdita, Mati or Hasi. The historian Gegaj (1937) traced the village Kastri (between Vigu, Kashnjeti, Mėnella and Dibra).
But this thesis was destroyed when pro.Buda found a mėhallė in Luma (Hasi) named Kastrat (like the chronicle of Ragusa said). In 1959 the historians of "The History of Albania" supported this theory.

According to another theory, the Kastrioti were originally named Mazareku, whereas they changed their name when they were in Mirdita (where there is a village named Kastri)!"

I believe George Kastrioti was from Hasi, that his original name was Mazrreku and that they somehow changed it to Kastrioti.

Quote mentions the once largely populated by Hellines city of Kruje in S.Albania (EPIROS).

LOL!!! Phallanx your killing me ..... Kruje is in Gheg Albania. In Gegeria. It doesnt even fit in the whole "Tosks are Albanized Greeks" crap I hear from some Hellenes(hey it's starting to stick) OR North Epirus. Kruja could not have possibly had a large Hellenic population.

 

  • 15 Krujė

    How the hell would this have a large hellenic population when it's so far from Epirus. Are you talking about Korce? Thats number 14. BTW, the area that has the places called "Kastrati" and "Kastri" is in  22. In Albania we call it  "Malėsi e Madhe".

    "Stop stop. Its this character, history claiming thats annoying the hell out of people."

    How does this apply to me?

    Quote "The Cross, The Cross! Liberty! Greece! Iskander and Epirus!"

    Wow, wow. Most sources say the quote ACTUALLY was;

    "I have not brought you liberty, I have found it here, among you!

    Your event is not possible because as I just showed, Kruja never laid in Epirus, but that's where Scanderbeg went after he ditched the Turks after Nis and where he declared his freedom from the Turks.

    Scanderbeg also switched to Catholicism, Not Orthodoxy(Most northern Albanians were not Orthodox but Catholic, this links with the Kastrati/Kastri theory, in Northern Albania). How would he relate to Hellenes? His allies were never even Hellenic; All of them were Albanian princes and a Montenegrin one. Ill post all of them as soon as I find them.

    Update: Ah here they are: 

    Arianiti's, Albanians
    Dukagjinis, Albanians
    Crnojevics, Montenegrins
    Balshas, Albanians
    Thopias, Albanians
    Muzakas, Albanians

     

    "Stop stop. Its this character, history claiming thats annoying the hell out of people. "

    Again, How does this apply to me?

    Quote Interestingly enough in his whole novel the word Albanian occurs only once. In a early description of the hero's clothes: "He wore also a full white camese common among the Albanians."

    Only further proof that he was Albanian.

     

    BTW, today many people from the area from Mirdita have the surname Kastriot. Google it...

  • Sorry about the Kastoria thing. It was not my arguement. It was originally one made a by a Serb based off the weak similarity in name.



  • -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 06:09
    Well, Kruja in my map seemed much lower South, actually after taking another look it seems I mistook Vorre for Vlore (yeah, stupid I knowbut an honest mistake)

    Anyway, the beginning of this, isn't actually your post. It's a simple copy off another forum with the original author being Dijedon, I happen to post there All you added was "my input" it would be much more honest to have said that, instead of claiming someone elses work.
    Quote

    Wow, wow. Most sources say the quote ACTUALLY was;

    "I have not brought you liberty, I have found it here, among you!

    You obviously never read Disraeli's "The Rise of Iskander", otherwise you would have changed your inaccurate sources.

    Let's see, what Disraeli really wrote:

    "Iskander was the youngest son of the Prince of Epirus, who, with the other Grecian princes,
    had, at the commencement of the reign of Amurath the Second, in vain resisted the progress of the
    Turkish arms in Europe."
    ( 2.1)

    "The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia,
    Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat"
    ( 2.3)

    "His Turkish education could never eradicate from his
    memory the consciousness that he was a Greek;"
    (2.4)

    I could go on and on by quoting the hundreds of times he names him GRECIAN PRINCE but I'll just post the quote you rejected as innaccurate previously:

    "At midnight the Epirots, faithful to their orders, arrived and united beneath the walls of the city, and after inter-changing the signals agreed upon, the gates were opened. A large body instantly
    marched and secured the citadel. The rest, conducted by appointed leaders, surrounded the Turks in their quarters.
    And suddenly, in the noon of night, in that great city, arose a clang so dreadful that people leapt up from their sleep and stared with stupor. Instantly the terrace of every house blazed with torches,
    and it became as light as day. Troops of armed men were charging down the streets, brandishing their scimitars and yataghans, and exclaiming,
    "The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and
    Epirus!" The townsmen recognised their countrymen by their language and their dress. The name of
    Iskander acted as a spell. They stopt not to inquire. A magic sympathy at once persuaded them that this great man had, by the grace of Heaven, recurred to the creed and country of his fathers. And so every townsman, seizing the nearest weapon, with a spirit of patriotic frenzy, rushed into the streets, crying out,
    "The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and Epirus!" Ay! even the women lost all womanly fears, and stimulated instead of soothing the impulse of their masters. They fetched them arms, they held the torches, they sent them forth with vows and prayers and imprecations, their children clinging to their robes, and repeating with enthusiasm, phrases which they could not comprehend."
    (6.11)

    You can find his work online here:
    http://www.ibiblio.org/disraeli/iskander.pdf
    Quote Scanderbeg also switched to Catholicism, Not Orthodoxy

    His allies were never even Hellenic; All of them were Albanian princes and a Montenegrin one. Ill post all of them as soon as I find them.

    Update: Ah here they are: 

    Arianiti's, Albanians
    Dukagjinis, Albanians
    Crnojevics, Montenegrins
    Balshas, Albanians
    Thopias, Albanians
    Muzakas, Albanians


    Now this is another first.
    I really would like to see some sources on this. I've never and do mean never seen anyone present him as Catholic.
    I guess out of pure coincidence, that he adopted the Byzantine double headed eagle instead of some Catholic symbol.

    I honestly don't see why who his allies were really matters.  We are talking about his origin, not who he was friends and allies with. Besides that, I don't recall saying that every member of Byzantium was Hellinic in origin. Hellinic may have been the predominant language and culture but the Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic. Which is why we see Serb and Armenian emperors.

    Wasn't the South, Orthodox while North was Catholic after the Christian church schism?
    So that would make the Muzakas and the Shpatas (you forgot about them) Orthodox. And wasn't it, Karlos Topia that asked the Ottomans to include Albania in the Islamic empire?
    I don't think he was much of an ally.



    -------------
    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 09:50

    I knew it. Let me guess your name was...... Hellinaras.Right? Anyway Im not Dij, but I comeplete agree with him. Anyway, I do not post there anymore.

    Okay you found a source that called him greek. Sure, I have seen sources saying he fought for the cause of Serbia also......

    Again Phallanx, if Scanderbeg went to Kruja after he liberated himself, he would could not have yelled that because Kruja was not populated by Greeks. It was an entirely Albanian town. Furthermore the town had NOTHING to do with Epirus. So screaming Epirus and Greeks in an Albanian town in Northern Albania and suddenly Im the one that incorrect?

    Quote I really would like to see some sources on this. I've never and do mean never seen anyone present him as Catholic.
    I guess out of pure coincidence, that he adopted the Byzantine double headed eagle instead of some Catholic symbol.

    Well you have to stand for something. As stated by another member, the adoption could have a million reasons as to why. On top of that it couldbe for recognition. Also, Albanians were at once part of the Byzantine Empire.  

    Quote I honestly don't see why who his allies were really matters.  We are talking about his origin, not who he was friends and allies with. Besides that, I don't recall saying that every member of Byzantium was Hellinic in origin. Hellinic may have been the predominant language and culture but the Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic. Which is why we see Serb and Armenian emperors.

    His allies are of importance when looking at who he ran off to. He ran off to Albanians after defecting and worked to unite Albanians. It gives a big clue as to his origins.

    Quote Wasn't the South, Orthodox while North was Catholic after the Christian church schism?

    Thanks for pointing that out, when I did so before. Yes the north was catholic and the south was orthodox. It gives more clues toward him being from Catholic background since he switched to Catholicism. 

    Him uniting all Albanian princes. Him running to Albania to declare the freedom from the Turks and his last name  relation to an Albanian place name and tie this to him going back to Catholicism with Geg Albanians being mainly Catholic. On top of that he declared his "Albanese"ness in a letter you yourself used. All of those give me clues as to his origins.....

    Ugh, how irritating. I originally posted for fun now Im into an annoying arguement.

    Anyway phallanx, so I guess the whole world has been hypnotized except a few Serb and Greek nationalists, by Albanians. The world recognises it so, until you or Highduke can make some revolutionary changes, it remains so.



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 11:59
    First of all, as I've said time and time again, there is no reference to Albanians in the specific book.
    Second in most of the quotes we both provided, he is titled Prince of the Epirotes.
    Was Kruja part of Epirus???
    If not why the whole mix up???
    Is it posible the historians didn't know what they were writing???

    The letter to the Prince of Taranto is crystal clear.
    "Our ancestors were EPIROTIANS, from which PYRROS the king was born. Who won the Romans and occupied Taranto and other cities of Italy. You do not have fighters to resist the EPIROTIAN courage"

    What connections do the Albanians have to the Epirotians??
    And please don't tell me Pyrros was an Albanian???

    So knowing that he used the district name of Epirus and connected himself to the Mollosians (Hellinic origin) and Pyrrus should make you at least skeptical.
    Now add to this the fact that not all biographies agree on his origin makes the whole issue debatable and actually no one can claim to be correct.

    I must admit that I was kind of disappointed seeing you turn this, interesting topic into the very thing you tried to avoid in the beginning.
    A origin argument.
    I do believe I cleared my point of view from very first post when I said:

    " I really don't see why his origin is of such interest to you. Would he be less of a hero to you and your people if you knew he was a Serb, Bulgarian or a German????
    What should be of interest is his heroic deeds for the lands and people  he ruled."

    But you never got around to tell me if his origin is actually that important.

    Oh, and don't compare me to that Highduke dude. Besides the term you use is actually a virtue and not an insult or anything to be ashamed of.

    Nationalist means:
    • patriot: one who loves and defends his or her country
    • devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others; "nationalist aspirations"; "minor nationalistic differences"
    • an advocate of national independence of or a strong national government
    http://www.google.com.gr/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.1?s=nationalist - So please allow me to be damn proud of being one.



    -------------
    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 12:10

    Why so selective Phallanx? Why did you not also put his first words;

      http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm - "Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. "

    THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE PRINCE OF TARANTO'S COMMENT;

     You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.

     Are you going to deny this now? Was there any mention of Greeks made? The only other thing mentioned was Christianity in the Prince's letter.  No mention of Byzantines/Hellenes/Greek's nor Epirotians. Just Albanians. So if Scanderbeg was offended by anything, it was the fact that the Albanese were belittled.

    Also if you look at most Italin sources(Including his plaque in Rome), you will see it says Prince of Epirus. The comment he made only gives further proof to me of who was living there are the given moment. Once again, do you think Scanderbeg was a linguisist or ethnologist? Add this to the first Albanian- Latin disctionary which once again was called "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum" and Joseph Scalinger's comment about Albanian being spoken "In the mountains of Epirus".

     

    Okay, I have gotten my view across. I don't expect to change any views on the matter, as this is never the object of these discussions.. I guess we can return to the original topic.



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 13:50
    You claim selective posting yet dear friend you do the exact same thing you accuse me of doing. You obviously chose to leave out the fact that he claim to be a decendant of Pyrros.

    Here are both letters:

    Source Pagnel "The Turks and the history of Skanderbeg"
    (I'm sure you can find it online somewhere)

    The letter to Skanderbeg:

    Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgio albanese, greeting.

    (Conveniva a te?), that the luck you had shown in the war with the enemies of the Christian religion, which sometimes had forced combat, then leaving that field, you came to Italy to drive your armies against Christians? What cause do you hold against me? What have I done against you? What controversies do they make between us?

    You have spoiled my territories and are crudely giving vent against my subjects, and first you have (mosso?) the war that (proposta?). You boast that you are a great warrior for the Christian religion and (pur?) yet you persecute this (geate?) which for every reason is called Christianity. You have turned your iron against the French of the Kingdom of Sicily. Perhaps you have thought to take the army against the effeminate Turks that you are accustomed to wounding in the back.

    You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.

    You have avoided the onslaught of the Turks, and not having the power to defend your own house, have thought to invade other peopleÕs. You are deceitful. Instead of a new house you are looking for your grave.

    Goodbye......Ó


    Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:

    Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting.

    Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lÕistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to set up the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?

    I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (NeÕ?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (ImperoccheÕ vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.

    I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Troja from the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (NeÕ troverai nobilitaÕ piuÕ antica della virtuÕ.)

    Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperoccheÕ) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?

    Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

    I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?

    In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neÕ) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeÕ?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.

    (Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mi vai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.

    Good bye....Ó

    You can clearly see that he considers himself a decendant of the Epirotes of Pyrros. While he names his subjects Albanese. I think our argument is about HIS origin and not that of the subjects of Kruja.
    Further he claims that IF Albania is part of Makedonia then "a lot more of our ancestors were nobles". Which PROVES he connects himself,  to the "noble" Hellines of Epiros.

    -------------
    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 13:55

    I left out the Pyrrhus part because you have done so already. As I stated, I put in his first words.

    You did not need to post the entire letter. I had a link of it within the post I put in in blue.   Nevertheless, in that sentence, he may try to connect himself with anything but he states that he was offended by the comment made to his people by the Prince. Once again though, this only aids my belief as to the ethnicity of the people living in Epirus were at the time.

    Obviously this arguement will follow the usual route. Now we are probably supposed to switch to an arguement on who populated much of Epirus during that era. I would rather just not jump to that. You know who I believe populated it and I know who you believe populated it.

     



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: vulkan02
    Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 21:12
    Originally posted by Phallanx Phallanx wrote:

    Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

    I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?

    Good bye....Ó

    You can clearly see that he considers himself a decendant of the Epirotes of Pyrros. While he names his subjects Albanese. I think our argument is about HIS origin and not that of the subjects of Kruja.
    Further he claims that IF Albania is part of Makedonia then "a lot more of our ancestors were nobles". Which PROVES he connects himself,  to the "noble" Hellines of Epiros.


    Well phallax you can use the double standard on this "fact". First of all what Scanderbeg originates from is open to argument. it doesn't mean that just because he relates himself to epirotes he is.  And if he is then you can easily say that Albanians are decendands of Macedonias.


    -------------
    The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
    Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 00:49
    vulcan02
    Your didn't offer anything to this discussion than problems, so please allow us to discuss it as we like since your comments not only are totally off topic but are totally ignorant.
    Read the damn letter again.

    Isk.
    You my friend spoke of convenience and intention. So please accept the entire letter.
    What on earth do you mean by I know who you'd support to be the population???
    Anything than what has been proved by historians archeologists and anthropology is simply stupid. Texts and scientists have concluded that the population of Epirus, the Mollosians to be exact, were Hellines, but you dare claim the opposite???

    You dared to name me a nationalist (as an insult) as if you knew the very meaning.  Man you're nothing more than a deluted propagandist.

    OK, let's end this here, have evrything, claim GEORGIOS KASTRIOTIS, claim Bouboulina, claim Kolokotronis, claim Alexander and fight with those Bulgari-Slavs about it, hell you can even claim Homer as you beloved Hoxha has. The scientific community knows that you are nothing more than an invented bad joke.

    I'm literally out of here.


    -------------
    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: vulkan02
    Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 01:16
    chiiiiillllll chilllllllll with the Georgios and HOmer, and whoever else you naming that i never even heard of lol. You know very well there is no one else here a more deluted propagandist than you phallax . 

    -------------
    The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
    Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 21:29

    Quote claim Bouboulina, claim Kolokotronis, claim Alexander and fight with those Bulgari-Slavs about it, hell you can even claim Homer as you beloved Hoxha has.

    Phallanx.

    Have I EVER, EVER claimed Alex, Kolokotronis, or Bouboulina or even Homer? Can you find one single comment I hav ever made that stated them as Albanians? You can search through 3 million forums and will NEVER find those words connected with one another in my sentences. I have more dignity then that. You want to site Hoxha now? The man was a joke, point and simple and we were a small people who fell into his arms. And how is he our beloved? I'm pretty sure he was never the beloved of my family when he had my grandfather emprisoned and beaten for having a political mind. Im sure he was not "beloved" to there rest of my countrymen when they gathered around Scanderbeg Square and torn down his statue in such mass excitement and happiness. We were never the ones to print out money with Thessolonike on it, or think of creating statues of Alexander or Pyrrhus, people who I have stated were clearly hellenistic figures. So next time, try not making assumptions about a community by basing them on web pages.

    Finally, what was with capitolizing Kastriotis. Was it because you believed that somehow capitolizing, bolding or enlarging a certain sentence, name etc would make me angry?

    Quote Texts and scientists have concluded that the population of Epirus, the Mollosians to be exact, were Hellines, but you dare claim the opposite???

    You dared to name me a nationalist (as an insult) as if you knew the very meaning.  Man you're nothing more than a deluted propagandist.

    So now Im a deluted propagandist for quoting somebody else? Your stating that because in antiquity the population was one thing it has to be so thereafter. I do not deny that the history of Epirus was tied to the Hellenes. But I also believe that it is very likely that at some point it began to be mixed with Albanians.

     


     

     



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 22:02

    Scanderbeg's first Battle against Ali Pasha, The account of the battle is from;


    Catholic World VOL. XXIII., No. 134. -MAY, 1876


    Ali Pasha with around 45,000.                                                                                    Skanderbeg with about 15,000.


     During the war of Albanian Independence, the Turks, except toward the end, made the fatal blunder of sending immense armies, consisting in some cases of more then 200,000 men, into a country they could only be maintained for a single and brief campaign,and to fight a general who was sure, from his experience and bravery, skill, and thousand rough knowledge of every torrent mountain pass, road, valley, to turn defeat into an overwhelming disaster


    It was thus that the army of Ali Pasha was drawn by a wily maneuver into a narrow district only ninety miles from Croia and opening into the very heart of Albania. The upper end was very contracted, and here Scanderbeg drew up his main body of troops, to the number of ten thousand, which were posted in three divisions en echelon. As soon as the enemy was well engaged in the valley three thousand horsemen, who had been watching their slow advance, came down at it's lower end, which had been left quite unguarded, while fifteen hundred irregular infantry lay in ambush on either side amidst the woody acclivities. As sson as the Turks came up to the Albanians they halted, tried to deploy, but could not, repeatedly charged and swept up in heavy columns against the small but solid masses who evenly filled the gap and made it impossible to flank them. The Turks after a while began to waver and fall into great disorder. Ali Pasha blundered.


    The Albanians now took the offensive. The signal-clarions sounded and,. while the Turks were attacked in front, the cavalry from the lower end of the valley charged them in the rear and the infantry that lay in ambush came rushing down on both sides with terrific cries and sword in had to complete their discomfiture. It was now a slaughter; and although the battle lasted only four hours altogether, over twenty thousand infedels were killed or wounded. Few prisoners-no more then two thousand-were taken. The rest of the enemy, under cover of darkness and from sheer exhaustion on the part of the victors, escaped through the now open passage at the lower end of the valley.


     



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 19:23
    Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, London 1776- 1778, Of Scanderbeg, Gibbon had written:

    "In the list of heroes, John Huniades and Scanderbeg are commonly associated, and they are both entitled to our notice, since their occupation of the Ottoman arms delayed the ruin of the Greek empire. John Castriot, the father of Scanderbeg, was the hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania, between the mountains and the Adriatic Sea. Unable to contend with the sultan's power, Castriot submitted to the hard conditions of peace and tribute: he delivered his four sons as the pledges of his fidelity; and the Christian youths, after receiving the mark of circumcision, were instructed in the Mahometan religion, and trained in the arms and arts of Turkish policy. The three elder
    brothers were confounded in the crowd of slaves; and the poison to which their deaths are ascribed cannot be verified or disproved by any positive evidence. Yet the suspicion is in a great measure removed by the kind and paternal treatment of George Castriot, the fourth brother, who, from his tender youth, displayed the strength and spirit of a soldier. The successive overthrow of a Tartar and two Persians, who carried a proud defiance to the Turkish court, recommended him to the favor of Amurath, and his Turkish appellation of Scanderbeg (Iskender beg), or the lord Alexander, is an indelible memorial of his glory and servitude. His father's principality was reduced into a province; but the loss was compensated by the rank and title of Sanjiak, a command of five thousand horses, and the prospect of the first dignities of the empire. He served with honor in the wars of Europe and Asia; and we may smile at the art or credulity of the historian, who supposes, that in every encounter he spared the Christians, while he fell with a thundering
    arm on his Mussulman foes. The glory of Huniades is without reproach: he fought in the defence of his religion and country; but the enemies who applaud the patriot, have branded his rival with the name of traitor and apostate. In the eyes of the Christians, the rebellion of Scanderbeg is justified by his father's wrongs, the ambiguous death of his three brothers, his own degradation, and the slavery of his country; and they adore the generous, though tardy, zeal, with which he asserted the faith and independence of his ancestors. But he had imbibed from his ninth year the doctrines of the Koran: he was ignorant of the Gospel; the religion of a soldier is determined by authority and habit; nor is it easy to conceive what new illumination at the age of forty could be poured into his soul. His motives would be less exposed to the suspicion of interest or revenge, had he broken his chain from the moment that he was sensible of its weight: but a long oblivion has surely impaired his original right; and every year of obedience and reward had cemented the mutual bond of the sultan and his subject. If Scanderbeg had long harbored the belief of Christianity and the intention of revolt, a worthy mind must condemn the base dissimulation, that could serve only to betray, that could promise only to be forsworn, that could actively join in the temporal and spiritual perdition of so many thousands of his unhappy brethren. Shall we praise a secret correspondence with Huniades, while he commanded the vanguard of the Turkish army? Shall we excuse the desertion of his standard, a treacherous desertion which abandoned the victory to the enemies of his benefactor? In the confusion of a defeat, the eye of Scanderbeg was fixed on the Reis Effendi, or principal secretary: with the dagger at his breast, he extorted a firman or patent for the government of Albania; and the murder of the guiltless scribe and his train prevented the consequences of an immediate discovery. With some bold companions, to whom he had revealed his design, he escaped in the night, by rapid marches, from the field of battle to his paternal mountains. The gates of Croya were opened to the royal mandate; and no sooner did he command the fortress, than George Castriot dropped the mask of dissimulation; abjured the prophet and the sultan, and proclaimed himself the avenger of his family and country. The names of religion and liberty provoked a general revolt: the Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince; and the Ottoman garrisons were indulged in the choice of martyrdom or baptism. In the assembly of the states of Epirus, Scanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war; and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money. From these contributions, from his patrimonial estate, and from the valuable salt-pits of Selina, he drew an annual revenue of two hundred thousand ducats; and the entire sum, exempt from the demands of luxury, was strictly appropriated to the public use. His manners were popular; but his discipline was severe; and every superfluous vice was banished from his camp: his example strengthened his command; and under his conduct the Albanians were invincible in their own opinion and that of their enemies. The bravest adventurers of France and Germany were allured by his fame and retained in his service: his standing militia consisted of eight thousand horse and seven thousand foot: the horses were small, the men were active; but he viewed with a discerning eye the difficulties and resources of the mountains; and, at the blaze of the beacons, the whole nation was distributed in the strongest posts. With such unequal arms Scanderbeg resisted twenty- three years the powers of the Ottoman empire; and two conquerors, Amurath the Second, and his greater son, were repeatedly baffled by a rebel, whom they pursued with seeming contempt and implacable resentment. At the head of sixty thousand horse and forty thousand Janizaries, Amurath entered Albania: he might ravage the open country, occupy the defenceless towns, convert the churches into mosques, circumcise the Christian youths, and punish with death his adult and obstinate captives: but the conquests of the sultan were confined
    to the petty fortress of Sfetigrade; and the garrison, invincible to his arms, was oppressed by a paltry artifice and a superstitious scruple. Amurath retired with shame and loss from the walls of Croya, the castle and residence of the Castriots; the march, the siege, the retreat, were harassed by a vexatious, and almost invisible, adversary; and the disappointment might tend to imbitter, perhaps shorten, the last days of the sultan. In the fulness of conquest, Mahomet the Second still felt at his bosom this domestic thorn: his
    lieutenants were permitted to negotiate a truce; and the Albanian prince may justly be praised as a firm and able champion of his national independence. The enthusiasm of chivalry and religion has ranked him with the names of Alexander and Pyrrhus; nor would they blush to acknowledge their intrepid countryman: but his narrow dominion, and slender power, must leave him at an humble distance below the heroes of antiquity,
    who triumphed over the East and the Roman legions. His splendid achievements, the bashaws whom he encountered, the armies that he discomfited, and the three thousand
    Turks who were slain by his single hand, must be weighed in the scales of suspicious criticism. Agaian illiterate enemy, and in the dark solitude of Epirus, his partial biographers may safely indulge the latitude of romance: but their fictions are exposed by
    the light of Italian history; and they afford a strong presumption against their own truth, by a fabulous tale of his exploits, when he passed the Adriatic with eight hundred horse to the succor of the king of Naples. Without disparagement to his fame, they might have
    owned, that he was finally oppressed by the Ottoman powers: in his extreme danger he applied to Pope Pius the Second for a refuge in the ecclesiastical state; and his resources were almost exhausted, since Scanderbeg died a fugitive at Lissus, on the Venetian
    territory. His sepulchre was soon violated by the Turkish conquerors; but the Janizaries, who wore his bones encased in a bracelet, declared by this superstitious amulet their involuntary reverence for his valor. The instant ruin of his country may redound to the hero's glory; yet, had he balanced the consequences of submission and resistance, a
    patriot perhaps would have declined the unequal contest which must depend on the life and genius of one man. Scanderbeg might indeed be supported by the rational, although fallacious, hope, that the pope, the king of Naples, and the Venetian republic, would join in the defence of a free and Christian people, who guarded the sea-coast of the Adriatic, and the narrow passage from Greece to Italy. His infant son was saved from the national shipwreck; the Castriots were invested with a Neapolitan dukedom, and their blood continues to flow in the noblest families of the realm. A colony of Albanian fugitives obtained a settlement in Calabria, and they preserve at this day the language and manners
    of their ancestors16."

    16 cf. Gibbon, vol. 5, p. 401-406.

    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Tughrul_Beg
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 02:40

    isnt skander beg a tURK WHO GOT ANGRY  ON the ottoman state and made a revolt . Around him all kind of ethnic gatherd,   among the albans, serbs greeks and manily turks who where dissatisfied   of teh OTTOMAN STATE ,  HE WAS A TURK , A REBELL AGAINST HIS OWN STATE,

    aaaaaaaa, hahahah



    -------------
    Albans are the poo-poo of the mountains , their only positive thing is labour force, grand vizier and master of ibn fadl of turkish court , IBN ERTUGHRUL / NICLOS PAPPAS


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 02:52
    I think your talking about Timur... George Kastrioti was certainly not a Turk...

    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Maju
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 05:59


    Just to comment that, at some time (around 1300) most of Albania was called Epirus... what doesn't mean that they were Greeks, just that the region/state had that name ( http://www.roman-emperors.org/big1300.htm - source ).


    Posted By: Tughrul_Beg
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 09:23
      1.  think your talking about Timur... George Kastrioti was certainly not a Turk...

    oh PLEASE,, HE WAS A turk all right

    AAAAAAA, hahahahahah

     

    where do you came up with this kind of sh*t



    -------------
    Albans are the poo-poo of the mountains , their only positive thing is labour force, grand vizier and master of ibn fadl of turkish court , IBN ERTUGHRUL / NICLOS PAPPAS


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 12:09

    Quote Just to comment that, at some time (around 1300) most of Albania was called Epirus... what doesn't mean that they were Greeks, just that the region/state had that name ( http://www.roman-emperors.org/big1300.htm - source ).

     

    Later that century, the Despotate of Epirus became overrun by Albo rulers who created Princelings. Albo rulers like Thopia took the arta region etc.etc.

    Here is an interesting map showing it.

    http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1401.htm - http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1401 .htm

    The Epirus area is cut with a Latin Power inbetween because that was the area after the wife of the Serb ruler Prebulovich went out of power and Italin ruler by the name of Buondelmonti, an Italian.
     



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Yiannis
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 12:30
    Originally posted by Tughrul_Beg Tughrul_Beg wrote:

    oh PLEASE,, HE WAS A turk all right

    AAAAAAA, hahahahahah

     

    where do you came up with this kind of sh*t

    You first few posts in this forum, are nothing but chlidish posts and insults of other members. This is an official warning, take it as an opportunity to change your ways. That is of course if you want to stay in this forum.

    PS

    While you're pondering on that, change your signature as well!



    -------------
    The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

    Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 21:15
    Maju is actually quite correct, while the map you present does show an albanian rule in the area of Epirus it really isn't clear since it is dated 1401.
    Here is an earlier map:


    So we find the Despotate of Epirus containing the areas.
    Thomas  Prebulovich was in power from 1367- 1384 when he died and his wife Maria Angela Paleologus took over untill 1386 when Buondelmonti is proclaimed despot.
    He asks for the aid of Sultan Murad 1st due to continuous Albanian raids. He held it untill his death in 1408 when new ruler is named Carlo I Tocco, duke of Cephalonia. He lost the despotate in in 1409 to the Albanian Bua Spata and re-conquered it in 1417 and remained 'ruler' until his death in 1429 only to be succeeded by Carlo II Tocco. The Ottomans took over Janina in 1431 and Arta in 1441 placing Albanian rulers.

    So there is obviously something wrong with the map you present simply because in 1401 there was no Albanian ruler. I can't explain it.


    -------------
    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: strategos
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 21:21

    Who is ruling Cyprus at this time?

    Why is Armenia so far down from current Armenia?

    Any new information on Trebizond?



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    http://theforgotten.org/intro.html


    Posted By: TheodoreFelix
    Date Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 22:56

    Quote Why is Armenia so far down from current Armenia?

     

    I dunno, I think there is an error in that, but then again. Wasnt the area of Cilicia under Armenian control for much of it's history?

    This is a map during an era of the region that is called Principalities of Albania in the 15th century.

    http://www.euratlas.com/big/1400big.jpg - http://www.euratlas.com/big/1400big.jpg

    This is during the 14th century;

    http://www.euratlas.com/big/1300big.jpg - http://www.euratlas.com/big/1300big.jpg

    The Despotate of Epirus had crapped out by then, Thopia had taken control of Ioannina and went to war with a Zetan/Albanian family called Balsha(Balsic) in Shkodra and called the Sultan Murad for assistance. The families made peace and intermarried with one another. 

    Much of this stuff is mentioned in this old Bio of Scanderbeg

    http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf - http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_sca nderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_sca nderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf -

    The map I presented before was off on many things so yea, it was rather errous, even the Principalities were never united into one land kingdom or anything.

    Quote Who is ruling Cyprus at this time?

    You can see there Cyprus was it's own Kingdom.

    Quote Thomas  Prebulovich was in power from 1367- 1384 when he died and his wife Maria Angela Paleologus took over untill 1386 when Buondelmonti is proclaimed despot

    Phallanx, I believe those were the rulers of Ioannina, not the Despotate.

    http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html - http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html

     

     



    -------------
    Albanian Proverb from the South
    Liria i ka rrėnjėt nė gjak.
    Liberty has its roots in blood.


    Posted By: Temujin
    Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 16:59
    Originally posted by strategos strategos wrote:

    Who is ruling Cyprus at this time?

    House of Lusignan, Crusader kingdom

    Quote Why is Armenia so far down from current Armenia?

    many Armenians have migrated downwards and durign the Crusades have established their own state in Cilicia called little Armenia. it was at first vassal of the byzantines but heavyily influenced by the other Crusader states.

    Quote Any new information on Trebizond?

    don't know what you mean...



    Posted By: the Bulgarian
    Date Posted: 08-Aug-2005 at 13:29
    Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO Iskender Bey ALBO wrote:

    Scanderbeg is also claimed by some Bulgarian nationalists(claiming his mother was Bulgarian), Serbian(climing his mother was a Serb) and FYROMIANS.

    but much like all historical claimers. its mostly limited to super-nationalists.

    I've always known he was Albanian. I've never herd anyone saying he was Bulgarian.


    Posted By: Socrates
    Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 07:56
    Originally posted by TheodoreFelix TheodoreFelix wrote:

    His ethnicity is "officially" half serb and Albanian but the serb part is also questionable as Viosvodina(his mother) came from an heavily Albanian populated area and the slavs and albanians there intermixed. So she was also likely part albanian.

    Her name was Vojislava.It's 100%  serbian(south slavic) name.As for her ancestors-certainly she had some non-serb ancestry-after all, all south slavs are mostly of pre-slavic ''blood''-it's the culture that counts.

    Originally posted by TheodoreFelix TheodoreFelix wrote:

    A brother of George Castriota Scanderbeg was Stanisha (Staniscia), who left a son Branilo.

     Stanisha???It's a very common name in serbia.Last name Stanishic is also very common.It's clearly of slavic origin-derived from stanovati-to inhabit,to live in. It could be also derived from other slavic words.However, it's unquestionably slavic-a few similar sounding names:Malisha, Radisha, Dragisha,Ljubisha...And Branilo is south-slavic name ,too.It is derived from braniti-to defend.So, we can  say Skenderbeg's mother was almost certainly serbian.As I said on previous threads:this doesn't make him  Serbian.



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    "It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
                   Bob Rock


    Posted By: k_levis
    Date Posted: 02-Apr-2006 at 15:11

    hi to all

    sorry for my english. my family moved in italy 500 years ago from albania after the ottoman conquered definitively kruja ( the center of scanderbeg state) , i born in italy but i feel like an albanian. i dont think that anyone of you here will find where mothers of scanderbeg was from, and its very ridiculous that you are arguing about this things. the problem with us albanian is that we have a few written material of our history, and the greeks or any other country has write of albania whatever they wanted and need. if an albanian is orthodox doesnt it make greece. so all the slavs people are orthodox but not greek,it wasn't greece that invented orthodox or make albanians orthodox. i know and what i know i am very sure albanians come from illiricum and we are older equally like greece in balcan its obvious that we have many things in common. french language , spanish italian are in the same group of languages but that doesnt make them italian. our language is unique like greece in europe its normal that in the frontier we may have word in common like people in nord with slav or midlle albania with turks,the slavs have come later in balcan and they say kosovo is theirs , dardans is writen in the tower of piza that were illirian,many of the imperators of rome were illirian and the history of rome admits this, so we have. epirus was a region that included many illirian tribu, they were not achakey and aobut pirro i want to say something he was greew up in glaukias court  an illir king that fight against macedonian and i have to say too that macedonian people ( iam speaking for the ancient of macedonians were not greek,) demosteni greek potician wanted that greece polis fight against him , all greek cities were frightened about him. he called macedonian like barbars.

    bye i just wrote to much

    and pallanx be serious



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    oh sa mire me qen shqiptar


    Posted By: bujar
    Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 04:11

    The Liberty do not bring i,but find to you(Skanderbeg)

    Bujar Kocani




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