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Hazara and Pan-Turk

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Description: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=16083
Printed Date: 23-Jun-2018 at 01:17
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Topic: Hazara and Pan-Turk
Posted By: Great Kushan
Subject: Hazara and Pan-Turk
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 20:39
 
Hi to all Turk and Turko-mongol brotheres and sisters,
 
I am a proud Hazara from Hazaristan in central Afghanistan. Hazara are great peoples, they are brave, generous, talented and honest.
 
I beleive Hazara are from Uyghur Turk heritage, though Hazara are comonly known Gengis khan descendents by Pashtun and British propaganda. of course its true there are Mongol influence in Hazara but it does not mean that Hazara presense in Afghanistan started from 13 century onwards.
 
Most likely Hazara are the desecendents of Kushan empire. Kushan empire which ruled from 1 AD to 5 century in present day Afghanistan, parts of central Asia and northern Pakistan and India. Kushan people originally migrated from present day Uyghur regions in western china to present day Afghanistan.
 
Kushan empire declined in 5 to 6 centuries after invasions from west by Persian Sassanids and from east by Indian Gupta empire.
 
 
From  5 AD century onwards Hazara came under Persian empires influence. Sassanids ruled the regions of Hazara and Afghanistan until arrival of Islam. When the Arab conquest ended in Afghanistan, powerful Turkic islamic empires such as Ghaznavids and Ghurids arose to power from heart land of Hazara people, these empires which ruled Persia  as well, thus Persian language and culture played important rule in Turkic empires, like Moghul Turk empire in India. Hazara likely learnt Persian as second language but over time Persian become their first language.
javascript:;">Click to view full size image
 
By the time Gengis khan arrived in Afghanistan in 13 century, Afghanistan, Persia and central Asia was ruled by Khwarezm empire. Khwarezm was also a Turkic peoples empire.
 
Hazara during Gengis khan and mongol empire most likely played an important rule because Hazara looked Mongloid like Mongols and most importantly spoke Persian, For example imagine if Mongol took control of Iran and Afghanistan today which Persian language is very important and Hazara speak it. if Mongol and Hazara make alliance in controling the territory how much  Mongol would be succssful in ruling the empire. Similar things may have happend during Ghengis khan thus alot of influences you can find in Hazara people today.
 
Hazara region and central Asia was ruled by Gengis khan and his descendents from 13  to 18 century like Tamerlane and Babur.
 
In the last 200 years, specially in the last one hundred years Hazara has been unimginably oppressed and suppressed. In 1880s, Pashtun king with help of British money and weapons succeded in massacring 62% of Hazara population and taking 60% of their land and still occupy the land to this day. The Taliban Pashtun also wanted  to completly eliminate Hazara identity and history. Hazara are proud and will never be shaken by
anyone.
 
Turk and Turko-Mongloid brothers it is time to be aware of your Hazara brother. although Hazara speak Hazaragi a dialict of Persian. but we can learn Turkic language whenever we want to, My Uncle and his family live in Tahskent today all my cousons can speak Uzbeki now, i wish all Hazara could speak Turkic languages in the near future. Hazara future remain with Turk because who they are, Turk! our flag should be included in Turkic people flags always.
 
 
For more information please visit these Hazara websits,Smile
http://www.hazaristan.net - www.hazaristan.net
http://www.hazaraworld.com - www.hazaraworld.com
http://www.hazara.org - www.hazara.org
http://www.hazara.net - www.hazara.net
http://www.hazarajat.com - www.hazarajat.com
http://www.hazarapress.com - www.hazarapress.com
http://www.hazaragiradio.com - www.hazaragiradio.com
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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!



Replies:
Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 00:06

I might be mistaken , but I thought that the Kushan empire was build by a group of Indo-European people related to Tocharians. How can Hazara people be descendants of an Indo-European people? 

 
 
 
 


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 00:30
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:

I might be mistaken , but I thought that the Kushan empire was build by a group of Indo-European people related to Tocharians. How can Hazara people be descendants of an Indo-European people? 

 
 
 
Indo-Eurpean or non Eurpean, Kushan people originated from present Uyghur regions of China. The Kushan people looked Mongoloid.
 
Can you guess why the Baminan buddah's face shaved by Pashtuns and destroyed completly by Taliban Pashtun in 2001. Because Buddah face was mongloid and similar to Hazara people. Pashtun has done anything to kill Hazara identity in more than one hundred years.
 
 


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 01:09
what Confused

do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 02:42
Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

what Confused

do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?
 
I have a very clear evidence that the Bamiyan budddah has been destroyed little by little in the last 200 years since Pashtun come to power in Afghanistan. before 200 years it was a complete buddah body statue.
 
http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm - http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 06:48
SelamAleykum, welcome Kushan brother to AE!
 
I think this was due to Islamic reasons and not due to the statues having Mongoliod faces.
 
P.S
I like the picture below the best, so cute Smile
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:

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"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 08:00
Hazaras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twoboys.jpg">Hazara children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twoboys.jpg">Enlarge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara - Hazara children.
Main article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara - Hazara

Historically, the Hazara seem to have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples - Turkic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols - Mongolian origins, but with some Caucasoid admixture from surrounding groups. Linguistically though the Hazara speak Persian, but their variant is interspersed with more Mongolian words, but this is also the case with many Turkic languages such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_language - Uzbek . It may simply be the case that the Hazara are of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur - Uyghur Turkic origin as many Turks accompanied the Mongol armies or arrived in the region long before the Mongols. It is however commonly believed by many Afghans that the Hazara are descendants of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan - Genghis Khan 's army, which marched into the area during the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century - 12th century . Proponents of this view hold that many of the Mongol soldiers and their family members settled in the area and remained there after the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_empire - Mongol empire dissolved in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_century - 13th century , converting to Islam and adopting local customs. The theory regarding a more Turkic origin for the Hazara has equal validity and the relatively small number of actual Mongols in comparison to Turks makes it more likely that the Hazara are descendants of Turkic invaders who were Persianized over time. Unlike most Afghans the Hazara are Shia, which has often set them apart from their neighbors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Afghanistan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Afghanistan
 


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 09:32
http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm - http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm

this is a biased source...


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 11:26
Ok . First of all I know that there are many biased and nationalistic posts and topics in the All empires and I usually ignore them , however since  I have already  made the mistake of  posting once  in this topic  I have to keep going.
I have to say that I do not especially dislike or like Hazara people and am completely neutral towards them, but I am a supporter of accurate and objective history.
So here it goes.
The faces of the great buddhas were unrecognizable for many centuries because of natural decay and also because of many cases of human destruction . Gengiz -khan himself pointed  cannon fires towards them. No body actually knows whether the buddhas looked caucasoid or mongoloid.
 
I do not see any reason for the British to lie and make a fake tale about the time of the arrival of Hazara people in the region. The time of the arrival of Hazara people  does not seem to make any difference for the British since they were already there for centuries when the British came.
 
Great Kushan mentioned that the Hazara people are likely to be  the decscendants of  the kushan empire in his first post , but  in his/her later post which was quoted from Wikipedia there is absolutely no mention of the Kushan empire as the origin of Hazara people. I agree that the people who built the Kushan Empire came from the place which is inhabited by the uyghur people in modern time , but this does not prove anything. In fact it is known that the Kushan people formed the basis of Pashton ethnogenesis alongside the Hephthalites.
 
These are only my opinions based on the things I have read here and there so I am not pushing anything as an absolute fact here . Corrections are very welcome.
 
I think the picture of the two children holding hands is lovely too, and Great Kushan please do not take any thing that I wrote badly , From your name it is obvious that you really care for the Kushan-Hazara connection and I do not feel good to write something that denies it ,but we have to try to be as objective as possible towards history. I am not trying to be rude or write something against you. It is just my opinion after I read the topic.
 


Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 17:18
Hazars are not I.E. they only speak Persian. They are Turkic, and it is interesting to see blond and blue eyes people with mongolian look.
I know many Hazars from Iran, I found them very hard working and honest peopel.They are nobler people not mixed with the others.
 


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 18:02
Originally posted by OSMANLI OSMANLI wrote:

SelamAleykum, welcome Kushan brother to AE!
 
I think this was due to Islamic reasons and not due to the statues having Mongoliod faces.
 
P.S
I like the picture below the best, so cute Smile
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:

javascript:;">Click to view full size image
 
javascript:; -
javascript:; - javascript:; -
 
 
 
Do you think when Pashtuns decided to destroy historic statues, if asked why, they certainly wont say we want to kill Hazara identity and history.
Of course they would make some kind of relegious excuses.
Do you know about Taliban? were they even compatible to Islamic idealogieas.
 
There are historic statues almost in every islamic countries. They are carefully preserved and their people are proud of their heritage. Afghanistan different story.


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 18:32
To Omnashti,
 
Quote
"I do not see any reason for the British to lie and make a fake tale about the time of the arrival of Hazara people in the region. The time of the arrival of Hazara people  does not seem to make any difference for the British since they were already there for centuries when the British came."
 
Did you the Pashtun King's money and weapon where come from, who massacred 62% of Hazara population. from The British.
Apart from that I have seen almost all British journalists and historic books refering Hazaras to Genghis khan descendents.
 
"Abdur Rahman Khan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1844 - 1844 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources - citation needed ] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1 - October 1 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901 - 1901 ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emir - Emir of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan - Afghanistan , was the third son of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzul_Khan - Afzul Khan , who was the eldest son of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dost_Mahommed_Khan - Dost Mahommed Khan , who had established the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakzai - Barakzai 's family dynasty in Afghanistan. Abdur Rehman Khan was considered a strong ruler who re-established the writ of the Afghan government in Kabul after the disarray that followed the second Anglo-Afghan war. His rule is also remembered for his savagery and bloody suppression of revolts, specially for massacring 60% population of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara - Hazara , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuristani - Nuristani ethnic groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Abdur_Rahman#_note-0 - [1] "
 
"The amir received an annual subsidy from the British government of 18.5 lakh (1.85 million) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupee - rupees . He was allowed to import munitions of war."
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Abdur_Rahman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Abdur_Rahman
 
 
 
 
 Quote from omshanti
"Great Kushan mentioned that the Hazara people are likely to be  the decscendants of  the kushan empire in his first post , but  in his/her later post which was quoted from Wikipedia there is absolutely no mention of the Kushan empire as the origin of Hazara people. "
 
"It is commonly believed that the Hazara are descendants of the army of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan - Genghis Khan , which marched into the area in the 12th century, but there are also beliefs holding Hazaras as descendents of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koshanis - Koshanis [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources - citation needed ], the ancient dwellers of Afghanistan famous for constructing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan - Buddhas of Bamyan ; or Hazaras as people of Turkic origin."
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazaras - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazaras


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:04
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:


To Omnashti,

á

Quote

"I do not see any reason for the British to lie and make a fake tale about the time of the arrival of Hazara people in the region. The time of the arrival of Hazara peopleá does not seem to make any difference for the Britishásince they were already there for centuries when the British came."

á

Did you the PashtunáKing's money and weapon where come from,áwho massacred 62% of Hazara population. from The British.

Apart from that I have seenáalmost all British journalists and historic books refering Hazaras to Genghis khan descendents.

á

Great Kushan Thank you for your reply.
When I wroteáthat I do not see any reason for the British to lie áor make a fake tale , I was trying to say that since there seems to be noábenefit áfor the British to lie ,we cannot assume what they say to be a complete lie or propaganda. Does anybody know of any reason why it mightáhave ábeen of benefit for the British to have lied as to when the Hazara people arrived in that region?

From what we have discussed so far, it is clear that there are 3á theories or beliefs regarding the origin and the time of the arrival of Hazara people in that region.
1. They areá the descendants of the army of Genghiz-khan which marchedáin to the area in the 12th century AD.

2. Theyáare the descendants ofááTurkic peoples who migrated in to the area during the time of the expansion of Turkic peoples to the south and west which happenedá in áthe 6thá- 11th century AD.

3. They are the desendants of the kushani people who build the Kushani empire during the 1stá - 3rd century AD and who constructed the great buddhas in Bamyan.

In my opinion it is more likely to be the combination of theá theory 1 andá theory 2.áIt is likely that ásome Turkic peoples settled in that region some time between 6th and 11th century and then assimilated the remains of the Genghiz -khan s army in the 12th century, hence the common belief of Hazara people being the descendants of the Genghiz-khan .
I can seeáwhereá theory á3 comes from. It is probabably because the great buddhas stand in Bamyan whichá is inhabited by Hazara people now and is a part of áHazarajat in modern time. It is natural for people to think that their ancestors built what stands where they live now.There are aáfew reasons that I do not think the theory 3 is valid . First the Koshani people are known to have been a group of Indo-European people. Second they are known to have formed the basis of Pashton ethnogenesis alongside the Hephthalites. Guessing from those two reasonsáit is quite safe to assume that the Koshani people were of caucasoid race, especially since this isácenturies ábefore the Turkic peoples expansion to the south and west.á I can see that some Hazara people show some caucasoid admixture, but in majority theyáexhibit ámuch stronger if not pure mongoloid features.
(Please note that I am not using the words caucasoid and mongoloid in any racist terms. Race can be a great tool in order to know people s áhistory and origins if used properly.)
P.S These areá only my opinions and I am not pushing anything as an absolute fact.
    
    


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 13:27
Are you aware that there were any total scale local population migration prior to Turkic or Mongolic people's migration to this region? if not then how can we exclude the third theory? Hazaras do show quite caocasoid feature.

Pushtun people's origin is also quite complicated, so you can't make them as a reference for Kushans, furthermore they do have mongoloid feature if you compare them to the Punjabis.

Personally I think all the three theories should be combined. AFAIK, mtDNA of Hazaras is similar to Uzbeks, while yDNA is clearly showing their Mongolic background, and also some similarities with the neighbouring groups.

It is really a rush statement to say that the Buddah had a Monogloid face without any proof prior to the demorphation of it.

BTW, welcome to the forum, and also Great Kushan.



   

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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 04:45
Hi great_kushan.
 
Hazaras ARE Moongoloid; but they're not like Uzbeks. A Hazara, having a shorter height and more faicial hair and higher cheek bones, is easily distinguished from an Uzbek who is moderate among Mongoloids.
 
About Buddha, I've also heard he was from a Hunnic ancestory. The Mongoloid face great_kushan is talking about, might be the same. I could only say, it remains controversial.
 
 


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: GhengisKhan
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 05:12
Finally,arae Hazaras Turkic or not?


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 09:59
Originally posted by GhengisKhan GhengisKhan wrote:

Finally,arae Hazaras Turkic or not?
 
 
Hazaras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twoboys.jpg">Hazara children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twoboys.jpg">Enlarge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara - Hazara children.
Main article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara - Hazara

Historically, the Hazara seem to have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples - Turkic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols - Mongolian origins, but with some Caucasoid admixture from surrounding groups. Linguistically though the Hazara speak Persian, but their variant is interspersed with more Mongolian words, but this is also the case with many Turkic languages such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_language - Uzbek . It may simply be the case that the Hazara are of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur - Uyghur Turkic origin as many Turks accompanied the Mongol armies or arrived in the region long before the Mongols. It is however commonly believed by many Afghans that the Hazara are descendants of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan - Genghis Khan 's army, which marched into the area during the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century - 12th century . Proponents of this view hold that many of the Mongol soldiers and their family members settled in the area and remained there after the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_empire - Mongol empire dissolved in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_century - 13th century , converting to Islam and adopting local customs. The theory regarding a more Turkic origin for the Hazara has equal validity and the relatively small number of actual Mongols in comparison to Turks makes it more likely that the Hazara are descendants of Turkic invaders who were Persianized over time. Unlike most Afghans the Hazara are Shia, which has often set them apart from their neighbors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Afghanistan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Afghanistan
 
 
Hazara are proud of Turkic-mongolian origin. All Turkic peoples originated from Mongolia. There are not any pure race in the world. Specially Turkic peoples intermarriege with other nationalites are very common. For example Turks of Turkey.


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: GhengisKhan
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:19

Turks originated in Central Asia,mongols are never than Turks but Turks have mongol blood like mongols have Turk blood.

Mixture between Turks and Mongols is very heavy.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:51
Firstly common mis-conceptions must be cleared up.
 
Todays Mongols (Mongolia) were not the Mongols of Ghenghiz Khan and his armies. Most of his army and scribes were Turkic.
 
There were Turkic tribes who had converted to Buddhism as early as 3 century BC via the Hinayana and later Mahayana tradtitions. In Afganistan there were the Turki-Shahi's who had a dynasty. The Turki-Shahi's were descendants of the Kushans, they had built the Buddhist buildings in the area.
 
Its clear there were Turkic people's in the Afganistan region a long time before Ghenghiz and his armies.
 
 
 


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      ôWhat we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.ö
Albert Pine



Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 10:59
Bulldog, can you create a list of all people that are Turkic?

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There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:07
http://c.myspace.com/Groups/00012/95/80/12450859_l.jpg - http://c.myspace.com/Groups/00012/95/80/12450859_l.jpg
http://c.myspace.com/Groups/00012/02/18/12588120_l.jpg - http://c.myspace.com/Groups/00012/02/18/12588120_l.jpg


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For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
http://groups.myspace.com/TurkWorld - T▄RK D▄NYASI Forum, join today.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:43

Mongols, according to history, when first arrived to Afghanistan, faced a group of Mongoloids who'd already been there. That's what Bulldog explains.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 20:14
Turk Shahi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turk_shahi

The Hinaya Buddhist tradition made envoys into Central Asia and some Turkic tribes converted to Buddhism, the Turk Shahi's adopted it as early as 3 century BCE.

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      ôWhat we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.ö
Albert Pine



Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 02:58
 
 
"The Parthian dynasty fell about 75 AD to another horde from Central Asia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire - Kushans , a Turkish type people known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi - Yueh-Chih in China moved from Central Asia to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria - Bactria , where they stayed for a century. Around 75 AD, one of the tribe Kushan under the leadership of Kujula Kadphises gained control of Gandhara and other part of present Pakistan"
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara
 
Kushan Turkish type people. Can Kushan and Hazara be related here.


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 13:38

Well, Yue-Chihs were Caucaid. As far as I know, Yue-Chis were later called Tokharians. They're the so-called Iranian population of Central Asia.  And if Kushans are somehow related to them, if they're not their descendants, well then Hazaras, being Asiatic has got nothing to do with them.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Salam
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 19:51

gok-turk my dear turkmen brother:

why does race matters so much? why does people's look matters so much? What happened to you in turkmenistan???

someone discriminated you or what???

you seem want to convince people that this whole world is mongoloid...

*Laugh*



Posted By: oghuzkb
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 13:14
Hi Great Kushan,

Good to know that:-)


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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 07:43
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

Well, Yue-Chihs were Caucaid. As far as I know, Yue-Chis were later called Tokharians. They're the so-called Iranian population of Central Asia. And if Kushans are somehow related to them, if they're not their descendants, well then Hazaras, being Asiatic has got nothing to do with them.


    

Take a look at other discussions about Kushans. It has been repeated many times. Yuechi were not Iranian stock.

If current day Hazaras are livinig in the lands of the ancient Kushans, there is no reason to deny their relationship with these locals, while you can't provide any historical proof that these locals were forced to move or slayed. Furthermore, Current day Hazaras are not totally mongoloid.



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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 09:55
Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.


Posted By: oghuzkb
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 04:41
Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.



Well, if so, where did they migrate from?


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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany


Posted By: Great Kushan
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 19:05

 

Hazara people lived in feudalism system until one hundred years ago. Hazara people has long history of living in mud built houses in villages. Hazara people has long history of agriculture and tradations.

I have not read anymore to say Hazara people were nomadic.
 


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LIFE IS LOVE, LOVE IS LIFE!


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 06:59

'Dated Kushana Inscriptions, Satya Shrava'

'The Armies of Bactria http://www.kushan.org/reviews/taob.htm - , Valerii.P.Nikonorov'
 
The name Kushan is derived from the term Guishang, used in Chinese historical writings to describe one branch of the nomadic people, called Yuezhi or Yuechi. These nomads who were of Indo-European stock, roamed the northwestern China but during 176-160 BC, they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu
 
There is evidence both from the mummies http://www.answers.com/topic/mummy - and Chinese http://www.answers.com/topic/china-13 - writings that many of them had blonde http://www.answers.com/topic/blond - or red hair http://www.answers.com/topic/red-hair - and blue http://www.answers.com/topic/blue - eyes, characteristics also found in present-day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan and Central Asia, due to the populations' high genetic diversity. This suggests the possibility that they were part of an early migration of speakers of Eastern Irannic Languages.
 
By the way, a normal Hazara is a good example of the Northern Mongoloid population. Ofcourse, for instance, they grew more facial hair than Central Asians, but they're, to a very high degree and uniformly Mongoloid.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 14:28
Kushans were Buddhists whose admistrative writings were in Prakrit and who translated religious texts into Sanskrit.  Nobody knows for sure what language they spoke in Central Asia. Some of their coins had Greek inscriptions and pics of Greek gods.

Voice of the Ancestors


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 01:21
Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.


Maziar, can we say Iranians are not the decendants of the early locals of Iran before Aryan migration? if a group of people migrate into a place they definately mix with the locals, if both parts are quite significant, we can find clear genetic and cultural elements from both parts (in the case of Hazara), then how can we exclude any of them from their ancestral line?



    

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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: AFG-PaShTuN
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 07:00
Man we've had enough of your childish complaints, you, Hazaras, and the rest of your comrades, Tajiks, Uzbeks and all put all the blmae on us Pashtuns for wahetever situation you guys are in right now, Grow up, read history, Afghanistan had never been damaged that severely as it was by the ancestors of the Hazara people [Mongols], you guys shouldn't even complain, our cities were razed to grounds by your people, we don't say nothing, but every forum i go to, i see the BS by you guys about us Pashtuns, as if we are the only devils and wrong doers in Afghanistan.

By the way, to clear your confusion, Kushans werent' Hazara, the Buddhas weren't built by Hazara, they were built by the Kushans, an Aryan Tribe that assimilated with the rest of the Aryanic Tribes, collectively known as Pashtuns or ethnic Afghans.

Peace


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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 17:49
Originally posted by AFG-PaShTuN AFG-PaShTuN wrote:


By the way, to clear your confusion, Kushans werent' Hazara, the Buddhas weren't built by Hazara, they were built by the Kushans, an Aryan Tribe that assimilated with the rest of the Aryanic Tribes, collectively known as Pashtuns or ethnic Afghans.

Peace
 
Who are Hazaras then? Did the Mongol troups come with their wives to this land, and killed all the locals?
 
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:16
I would just like to clarify.  The Buddha statues were not built during the reign of the Kushans, but the Ephtalites..who were ironically anti-Buddhists initially.
 
The Mongols killed every living being in Bamian, including, dogs and cats and lined their heads up in mounds.
 
The Hazaras are said to be descendants of the Mongol armies, not Genghis Khan.  The Mongol armies were made up of many different Turkic tribes as well as Mongols.  Bamian was setup as a garrison town for the Mongols and when the Mongols were eventually amalgamated with the rest of Persia and Central Asia, the Mongol hordes remained in Bamian, where they eventually converted to Shiite Islam.
 
Genetic studies have proven that they have Mongolian and Turkic ancestry.  Hazaras today are prevalent in every city in Afghanistan and have intermarried with every ethnic group.  My mother's grandmother infact, was a Hazara from Ghazni.
 
 
 
 


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:35
Here is a quick summary of events from the Kushans to the
Muslim conquest.
 
As for the Kushans, they are remnants of the Greater Yue-Chih, or the Tocharians.  They were not Mongols, but Eastern Iranian speaking nomads from China who were pushed out of their ancestral homes by the Huns.  They were followed by other Scythian nomads who were also fleeing the Huns and eventually swept over the Semi  Hellenic city states in Afghanistan and made their empire there.  They converted to Buddhism and were responsible for many of the caves that are in "Gharchistan" or Bamian. 
 
They were defeated and swept over the Kitharites (Huns) and then finally by the Ephtalite Huns.  The Ephtalite Huns have a mysterious past but are said to be remnants of the Tocharians and had cultural traditions similar to the Massagatae Saka.   They ruled Afghanistan and eventually converted to Buddhism and Hinduism.  Hinduism eventually won out in Eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar and Taxila, but Buddhism was still strong in Bamian where the Buddhist monk went to visit and noticed the Giant Buddha Statues.
 
The Ephtalites had various wars with the Sassanian Persians and Turks, some of which they won, some of which they lost, but eventually they were overrun by a joint Turk-Sassanian attack and were dispersed. 
 
--
 
Most of the information is from History of Central Asia, compied by UNESCO and historical departments from various universites across Central Asia, South Asia, and Europe.
 
 


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 22:47
Originally posted by Great Kushan Great Kushan wrote:

Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

what Confused

do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?
 
I have a very clear evidence that the Bamiyan budddah has been destroyed little by little in the last 200 years since Pashtun come to power in Afghanistan. before 200 years it was a complete buddah body statue.
 
http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm - http://www.hazarajat.com/great_buddah.htm
^I thought everyone knew that.
 
I'm a Naiman Hazara, therefore I'm a Hazara too. I think we are more Mongoloid than Turkic now. Before the Great Mongol Empire, our ancestors were more Turks than Mongols in Hazarstan regions. But it was after the Mongol Empire when we became known as the 'Hazaras'. You guys know that the Mongol Empire was divided into four states. Hazaras are from the Chaghatai and Ilkhanates of Afghanistan and Iran.
 
Hazara acestors lived in Central Afghanistan for more than 2000 years. Kushans are also our Turkic ancestors. The reason why some people say that they were Indo-European is because they had many races in their army and government, they even had black looking people possibly Indians. But the high ranked Kushans were Kushan Turks who built the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
 
The Turanian armies kept increasing our numbers. Specially during and after the Great Mongolian Empire Hazara population became larger and larger. When our Mongol ancestors completely lost power, the defeted soldiers from Iran, Iraq and other cities returned to Hazarstan/Hazarajat.
 
An interesting fact is that some of our Hazara sub-clans are still called by their old names. For example Naiman, Besud and etc...Today if you go in Mongolia or Kazakhistan you can find many communities (tribes) who have the same names, but they are separated by small communities everywhere in Mongolia and Kazakhsiatn. Here are only some of the Kahlkh-Mongol tribes that exist in Mongolia:
 
1.Borjigon
2.Besud
3.Jalair
4.Hatagin
5.Olkhonud
6.Harnut
7.eljigin
8.bayaud
9.gorlos
10.darhad
11.Sharnud
12.Uriankhan
13.Chinos
14.Onkhod
15.Mangud
16.Torguud
17.Khereid
18.NAIMAN
19.Merged
20.Khibchag
21.SARTUUL
22.Tangud
23.Bashigad
24.Khirgis
25.Khasag
26.Uigar
27.Kharchin
28.Uuld
29.Ujeed
30.Jongoor
31.Khotogoid
32.Avga
33.Tugchin
34.Guchid
35.Khorchin
36.Khitad
38.Asud
39.Baatud
40.Barnud
41.Khuuchid
42.Khalbagad
43.Khangad
44.Jarangiinkhan
45.Togoruutan
46.Kharĺd
47.Khorkhoi nudten
48.Buurluud
49.Khavchig
50.Bulagachid
51.Gozuul
52.Uzuun
53.Echeed
54.Khavkhchin
55.Orovgod
56.Tavnag
57.Khaakhar
57.Khunguud
58.Burged
59.Khuitserleg
60.Chutsuut
61.Ulanguud
62.Ezen
63.Undgaa
64.Gahan
65.Aksakal
67.Zuun shuvuuchin
68.Zaaruud
69.Dalandaganad
70.Tsagaan zel
71.Khar zel
72.Khariad
73.Daarĺtan
74.Barchuul
75.Gerchuud
76.Baachuud
77.Buuchuud
78.Khuluud
79.Basigid
80.Tsookhor
81.Khiitluud
82.Gal
83.Motoi
84.Tele
85.Sood
86.Mankhilag
87.Khamnigan
88.Taijiud
89.Tsakhar
90.Soloon
91.Khoid
92.barga
93.Tsoros
94.Talas
95.Baarin
96.Alag aduun
97.Saljud
98.Uvashi
99.Uneged
100.Asan(esen)
101.Uuhan
102.uush
103.Tsoor
104.Jalaid
105.Zaisanguud
106.Zurchid
107.Sunid
108.Tatar
109.Tuuhai
110.Usun
111.khalkha
112.khandgai
113.khangin
114.Khiad
115.Khoton
116.khurlad
117.Tsagaan
118.Nirun
119.durved
120.baatar
121.Zelme
122.Tuved
123.Tavuud
124.Khoshuud
125.barlas
126.Urad
127.yamaat
 
As you can see there are Naimans and Besuds still in Mongolia. But in Hazarajat/Hazarstan areas today we also have Turkomens which were called Oghuz Turks in the ancient times. Also we have 'Jaghuries' who are the biggest the most ancient Hazara sub-clan. They were mainly Uyghur Turks, but after Oltan Khaan their name changed to 'Jaghuri'. They were good fighters, hard workers and also good horse riders. The name 'Jaghuri' is derived from the word 'Chau Quri' or 'Jau Quri' which was a position given to a direct ancestor of Chinggis Khaan who had to lead 100 Mongol soldiers, during Oltan Khaan. That's when they became known as Jaghuri people.
 
If we look  back in the past, we don't see many differences between Mongols and Turks. They had same believes and culture. But Turks today specially Turks in Turkey, because of their geographical location, they tend to be more European and Middle-Eastern. We have Turks and Mongols in our Hazara tribe, we don't see any differences. I think the reason is because we give more value to the name 'Hazara' more than the smaller names such as jaghuri, Besud, Naiman, Turkoman and etc... 
 
If you look at the any ancient sources, you cannot find the name 'Hazara' before the Mongol Empire. The reason is because they became known as the 'Hazara' during and after the Empire. Before that they were called buy different names. My point is that the people who are called Hazara today have more than 2000 years of history in Central Afghanistan. We are the Mongols and the ancient Turks of Afghanistan.


Posted By: Jalair
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 20:26
Any link for the list? The list is comprised of Turkic and Mongol tribes, in fact most of them seems to be Turkic. Some of the tribes mentioned in the list are listed with Turkmen or Uzbek, currently we can find in Afghanistan. Here are some of them but there might be more:

Jalair                 Jalair
Hatagin              Qataghan
eljigin                 Alchin
bayaud              Baymaut
Onkhod             Ongut
Khereid             Kerait
NAIMAN            Naiman           
Merged             Merket
Uigar                 Uighur
Khirgis              Qirghiz
Khasag              Qazaq
Kharchin           Qarqin
Khibchag           qipchaq
Ujeed               Jeed
Khitad              Khitai
Bulagachid        bolaghichi
Uzuun               Uishun
Echeed             Jeed
Khuluud           Khalaut
Tele                  Telew
Baarin              Bakhrin
Saljud               Chiljiut
uush                 Uz
Tatar                Tatar
Tuuhai              Tumai
Usun                Yuishun
khurlad             Gurlat
barlas               Barlas
Urad                    Uirat
yamaat             Yamood





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Zarra


Posted By: khutulun
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 06:05
What do Hazaras consider themselves?  I've always had the impression they consider themselves 'Mongol,' though I have come across Hazaras whose 'tribe' claim Mongol and Turk ancestry based on their oral traditions.  
 
My question:
How did a LARGE group such as the Hazaras, who are unmistakeably of either Turk or Mongol (or mixture of both) descent, are/were  concentrated (mostly) in one large area with the rulers of the area, until recently, being mostly Turco-Mongol end up adopting a language (Persian) that would be 'foreign' to them? 
  
My observation:
Hazaras look similiar to Turkic peoples of the region (though as a group, they look possibly a degree more Mongoloid...if that makes sense), the women wear dresses in style that are similiar to the Pashtun (Kuchi) Nomads (embroidered chest, round skirts,pleated pants) though the colors used are vastly different, the jewelry and outter coat (Chappan) are exactly the style of Turkic peoples of the region, the language is a dialect of farsi with a smattering of turkic/Mongol words (Apa = Mother, Ata = Father).  I haven't read/seen anything on the culture, and most Hazaras are Shia.
 
Sorry if my question goes off-topic. 


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 11:36
Originally posted by khutulun khutulun wrote:

What do Hazaras consider themselves?  I've always had the impression they consider themselves 'Mongol,' though I have come across Hazaras whose 'tribe' claim Mongol and Turk ancestry based on their oral traditions.  
 
My question:
How did a LARGE group such as the Hazaras, who are unmistakeably of either Turk or Mongol (or mixture of both) descent, are/were  concentrated (mostly) in one large area with the rulers of the area, until recently, being mostly Turco-Mongol end up adopting a language (Persian) that would be 'foreign' to them? 
  
My observation:
Hazaras look similiar to Turkic peoples of the region (though as a group, they look possibly a degree more Mongoloid...if that makes sense), the women wear dresses in style that are similiar to the Pashtun (Kuchi) Nomads (embroidered chest, round skirts,pleated pants) though the colors used are vastly different, the jewelry and outter coat (Chappan) are exactly the style of Turkic peoples of the region, the language is a dialect of farsi with a smattering of turkic/Mongol words (Apa = Mother, Ata = Father).  I haven't read/seen anything on the culture, and most Hazaras are Shia.
 
Sorry if my question goes off-topic. 
 
Dear Khutulun!
 
Why do Hazaras speak Hazaragi?
My tribe, the Naimans spoke Khalkh Mongol till 18th century. My gandpa could sing folk Naiman songs till a few years ago. But the reason why Hazara people speak Hazaragi instead of Turkic like Uzbeks, or Mongolian is because Hazaras are not one single tribe, with one single language to communicate. There are many clans in Hazara tribe.
 
There are:
Besud - Mongol (Chinggis Khaan was a Borchegen Besud too)
Naiman - Mongol
Dai-Zangies - Mongol
Dai-Kundies - Mongol
 
Jaghuries - Turkic
Turkomans - Turkic
Tatars - Turkic
Aimaq - Turkic
 
They already had learnt Persian during the Ilkhaanid Hazara Mongols. And exactly thats when the language 'Hazaragi' started being used by the Hazaras. They found it easier to communicate in 'Hazaragi' because they could already speak it. But no tribe could speak Persian fluently, so they started using many Turkic and Mongol words in Hazaragi.
 
Glad to see that you are interested in Hazara history and origin. It is not as complicated as the writers make it. You are right we are Turk and Mongol mixed. But Aimaq Hazaras are too Persian now. One thing we should keep in mind that the name 'Hazara' was put on us during the Mongol Empire in the 13th century. So if you read history before the 13th Century you won't find any info about Hazaras. Because the name Hazara did not exist. But its not true to say that Hazaras 'people' didnt exists too. Hazara history is very simple if you divide their history into two stages:
 
1- Pre-Mongol Empire period:
In todays Hazarjat there is a place called 'Jaghuri'. People who live there are called Jaghuries. But there are actually four different clans living there. I don't exactly know their clan names but they date back to the Xiongnu Empire and Ak Huns. Jaghuri tribes and Uyghurs were part of the Ak Hun Empire. They moved down to Hindu-Kush mountains of Afghanistan around 2000 years ago.
 
If you read the "Secret History of the Mongols" it says that when the Great Mongolian warriors lead by Chinggis Khaans grandson reached Bamiyan, they faced a great challenge from the opponents who looked the same as the Mongol soldiers. They were surprised! This proved that those tribes existed long before the other Hazaras, such as the Ilkhaanids and Northern Hazara such as the Chaghataians.
 
2- After the Mongol Empire:
Hazara population grew very rapidly during the Mongol Empire. But when the Ilkhaanids lost, after the defeated soldiers returned to Hazarajat, the population stopped growing.
 
Here is a useful youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_zKY6NtFT4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_zKY6NtFT4
 
I am sorry for my messy writing, I'm in a hurry, but I hope its not as confusing as I think it is.
 
~Peace


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 20:51
Quote Jaghuri tribes and Uyghurs were part of the Ak Hun Empire. They moved down to Hindu-Kush mountains of Afghanistan around 2000 years ago.
 
Although there were Turks in Afghanistan up until the time of the White Huns.  More Turkics moved in after the Iranian Shers of Bamian were removed from power...  I did not recall any Turkic tribes moving into Afghanistan 2,000 years ago.  Please elaborate.


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 12:18
Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

Quote Jaghuri tribes and Uyghurs were part of the Ak Hun Empire. They moved down to Hindu-Kush mountains of Afghanistan around 2000 years ago.
 
Although there were Turks in Afghanistan up until the time of the White Huns.  More Turkics moved in after the Iranian Shers of Bamian were removed from power...  I did not recall any Turkic tribes moving into Afghanistan 2,000 years ago.  Please elaborate.
 
Hi Afghanan! 
 
I'm not saying exactly 2000 years ago. But it was before the Kushans. You are Afghan, so I recommend you to read the Persian book called "Dairat-ul-Taarikh", its an old Farsi book that explains Afghanistan and Iran history in debth. From the Huns to Temur. Its a useful source to read.
 
We all know that there were migrations of Altaic nomads from the north to the rest of Central Asia, and other parts such as East. So its highly possible to find out that Turks existed in Central Afghanistan even before 2500 years ago. But Jaghuri clans moved in a bit later, around 2300-2000 years ago. Because I know that Jaghuri clans were under Touman, and later under his son, Mete Khaan. They were not one of the major tribes because of their smaller population compared to the other tribes such as Ting-lings, Hsien-pei, Hego and ancient Qirghiz tribes and etc. The reason is because they were divided into four smaller clans instead of one, whereas other tribes were together. This book also mentions that at that time there were already Indo-European people (possibly Asian-Aryan's ancestrs such as Iranic tribes) in Central Asia too.
 
I think that civilisation in Bamiyan began with the first migration of Turkic tribes from the North. And I have not noticed the name "Shers of Bamiyan" in any text. Can you please tell us briefly about the Shers of Bamiyan?
 
Cheerz


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 22:55
I have a few books on Central Asian history.  I have the Encycolopedia of Afghanistan, History of Civilizations - Central Asia Volumes I-VI, Hudud al Alam, The Empire of the Steppes, Indo-Europeans, Early Empires of Central Asia, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, and NONE of them mention any Turkics 2500 years ago in Afghanistan.  IF there was any, some archaeological evidence would show their existence.
 
Unless you consider the Huns (who pushed the Yu-Chi (Tocharians) out of the Tarim Basin), and Saka (Scythians) (culturally speaking) who preceded them, I'm not sure where this book you mention gets its information from. 
 
According to wkipedia, the Turkic migrations occurred during the Medieval period, which is roughly 5th century to 14th century. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#History - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#History
 
 
 
 


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: khutulun
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 06:58

Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

[QUOTE=khutulun] 

Why do Hazaras speak Hazaragi?
My tribe, the Naimans spoke Khalkh Mongol till 18th century. My gandpa could sing folk Naiman songs till a few years ago. But the reason why Hazara people speak Hazaragi instead of Turkic like Uzbeks, or Mongolian is because Hazaras are not one single tribe, with one single language to communicate. There are many clans in Hazara tribe.
 
 
Thank you for the info Naiman, but I don't think it answers my question.  You listed the Hazara tribes, half of whom are Mongol and the other Turk.  Why would they adopt a foreign language rather than make up a hybrid of both their languages...or just use the one that was most common?  At what point did Hazaras start speaking Hazaragi (a dialect of Persian)? 


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 08:43
Originally posted by khutulun khutulun wrote:

Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

[QUOTE=khutulun] 

Why do Hazaras speak Hazaragi?
My tribe, the Naimans spoke Khalkh Mongol till 18th century. My gandpa could sing folk Naiman songs till a few years ago. But the reason why Hazara people speak Hazaragi instead of Turkic like Uzbeks, or Mongolian is because Hazaras are not one single tribe, with one single language to communicate. There are many clans in Hazara tribe.
 
 
Thank you for the info Naiman, but I don't think it answers my question.  You listed the Hazara tribes, half of whom are Mongol and the other Turk.  Why would they adopt a foreign language rather than make up a hybrid of both their languages...or just use the one that was most common?  At what point did Hazaras start speaking Hazaragi (a dialect of Persian)? 
 
They started speaking Hazaragi during and after the Ilkhaanid Hazaras. Just like the Moghuls of India and Osmani Turks, Ilkhaanids loved Farsi language and poetry. That could be a reason too. 
 
I understand what you mean by making a hybrid of both languages(khalkha mongol and turkic) but it would've been too hard, may be even impossible at that time to make such a language. Considering they all could already speak Farsi they had no difficulty to communicate with each other.
 
But the Hazaragi dailect of Farsi at that time was mostly Turkic and Mongol, with just some Farsi words and the grammer used was Farsi too. Slowly they started using more and more Farsi words. I tried reading old Hazaragi poems, I didnt understand 80% of it. The only words I undestood were simple words such as 'is' 'was' and etc, the rest are old Turkic and Mongol.


Posted By: khutulun
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 17:20
Naiman, it would be AWESOME if you could post some of those old Hazaragi poems here so that others can look at them as well...if you still have access. 
 
To the ear, Hazaragi is intelligible by other Persian speakers, I am wondering how much Turco-Mongol influence the language has (if you have run across a study of the language at all or just from personal observation)?
 
Persian languages are very beautiful, but I can't imagine a large group adopting (and abandoning their own mother tongue for) a foreign language simply based on a love for the language.  There had to be some outside impetus, if the original inhabitants of Hazarajat were indeed Altaic.
 
One more thing.  Can you tell me more about the Turkic tribe labled Turkoman?  What relation, if any, do they have with Turkmen?  From what I've gathered from a Hazara of the Turkoman tribe, their oral traditions point to a Turkmen mother and a Hazara father...


Posted By: Jalair
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 20:34
There is a book by Prof Shah Ali Akbar Shahristani about Turkic-Mongol words in current Hazaragi published 1980s in Kabul. The book is not available online but it could worth having it online.
 
I remember an article published in "Farhange Mardom" or Folklor in Kabul (? late 1970s) translated about Hazara people, there the researcher a Swedish orientalist, mentions interviewing some peopel who speak Mongol-Turkic. The original article was published many years ago perhaps 50s or 60s.I do not remeber the author and the translatore name ( ?not sure perhaps Rawan Farhadi).


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Zarra


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 18:07
Hi Naimani, hi Khutulun. Well, I've seen Turkmens among Hazaras. I know this will take your time, but this was something interesting to me when I first saw a Turkmen Hazara (I never knew this before 3 years ago):

You know, a large Hazara population lives in Mashat. To me (until 3 years ago), the only Asiatic looking people in Iran were Turkmens and Hazaras which I could distinguish (a bit in face, but mostly in appearance and clothes). But when I went to visit my injured friend in Hospital, there I saw Hazara women and girls (wearing "Chador") speaking in Turkmen! I said "if you're a Turkmen, how come you dress like this?!". And they replied: " Il'ge mengzesh bolmoly da".

Anyhow, I, too, was wondering about the tribe Hazara Turkmens belonged to.

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 04:06
Originally posted by khutulun khutulun wrote:

Naiman, it would be AWESOME if you could post some of those old Hazaragi poems here so that others can look at them as well...if you still have access. 
 
To the ear, Hazaragi is intelligible by other Persian speakers, I am wondering how much Turco-Mongol influence the language has (if you have run across a study of the language at all or just from personal observation)?
 
Persian languages are very beautiful, but I can't imagine a large group adopting (and abandoning their own mother tongue for) a foreign language simply based on a love for the language.  There had to be some outside impetus, if the original inhabitants of Hazarajat were indeed Altaic.
 
One more thing.  Can you tell me more about the Turkic tribe labled Turkoman?  What relation, if any, do they have with Turkmen?  From what I've gathered from a Hazara of the Turkoman tribe, their oral traditions point to a Turkmen mother and a Hazara father...

Khutulun, Jalair and Gok Toruk Salam!

 

I also agree that Persian is a good language. But the fact that we have forgotten our mother-language hurt us(young Hazaras) deeply. Inshala when we finish studies and return to our country, we will have a compulsory subject in all school in Hazarajat to teach Turkic langauge for our students. I also read this idea in a Hazaragi magazine here in Sydney.

 

Turkomans = Turkmens, you see, we can't say Hazara Turkmen, Jaghuri Hazara or Borchigin Hazara or Besud Hazara etc we must keep the name Hazara away from clan names because its gets confusing. Hazara is more like a unity in which there are many Turkic and Mongol clans, from Hunnus to Aimaq Hazaras of Temur khaans army.

Someone has already told me to read Prof Shah Ali Akbar Shahristani's book. This book is made of reliable information unlike books that are written by the Persian and Arab writers.

Gok Toruk, I was born in Mashhad :D I guess you can read farsi so here is a poem for you, its written by a Hazara poet its called "A message to Turks":

الا ای تـورکتبــاران تــورکتبـــاران

بهــم یکجـا شویــد چون ابر وباران

بجــوشیـــد و بغریـــد و بباریـــــــد

بـه شهـر و ده و دشت و کوهساران

زمیــن و خـاک را سرسبز سازیــد

زبــــاغ و بوستــــان و کشتـــزاران

بنــا سازیــــد فرهنــــگ نوینــــــی

هزاره اوزبیک وتورک * وتتاران

شمـــا هستیــــد تهـــــداب تمــــــدن

دریـــن خطـه دریـن ملک ودیاران

بسوزیــــد کینــه های قرن هـــا را

بسازیــــد بــا تمــــام همــــجواران

ز بلــــخ و بامیـــان وغور وغزنـه

زکابــــل تـا هـــرات و قندهـــاران

رها سازیـــد این ملــک و وطن را

زدســــت تنبـــلان و مفتــــخواران

شماییـــــد جـــزء فرهنگ جهــانی

شمــا مســؤل این خاکـــید یــــاران

ز وحـــدت زنـده گـردد هویـت مــا

همــان هویـت که سالستش هزاران.

Khutulun, here is an old poem that dambora artists have been singing it for centuries, so its quite old, its called 'farmer' or 'Oraaqchi' in old eastern Hazaragi. Its long, and arabic alphabet was used to write it, so im just gonna write some lines:

ta'rifini ayla yin bir nicha muzi baini
gerdnimga alda'b ordi bit paykal boghdaini
hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama
 
demginem 'echimga toshdi kimga aytayo ayni
ondan kien chotlama sang chotla gin och aini
hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama
 
Singers still sing it but not all of them know what it means word by word. its basically about how farmers used to be treated unfairly by 'Bai' people meaning 'rich'. I've got some more if you want pm me khutulun.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 11:43
The poem was really exiciting. In fact, we can observe the part that says "بجــوشیـــد و بغریـــد و بباریـــــــد

بـه شهـر و ده و دشت و کوهساران", because of all those migrations. Also, "بسوزیــــد کینــه های قرن هـــا را" this is exactly what Maktym Guly (the great Turkmen poet) believes.

By the way, this poem is Turkic. Are there Hazaras in Mashat who can still speak Turkic (not Uzbeks or Turkmens)?

-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 11:58

Maktym Guly must be a great poet. Here is one more poem in todays Hazaragi language:

Jawoni erkatu ya laata ishil
Amil taaye goloya laata ishil
 
Sharob ochi ni da yaadi yaar khu
Qanjeghe ma noz ni qad saz o dutar khu
 
Ma ra ki togh muna az taaye orsi
Hamesha khanda roya laata ishil


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 12:10
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

By the way, this poem is Turkic. Are there Hazaras in Mashat who can still speak Turkic (not Uzbeks or Turkmens)?
Unfortunately, all the Hazaras i know, even close relatives have changed while they were in Iran. None of the ones I know can speak Turki. Growing up in Iran is difficult.


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 12:25
can we have English translations on the non-English content. thanks


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 12:46
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

can we have English translations on the non-English content. thanks
Did you want line by line translation? Its a bit hard and takes time to translate them that way, but if you want I will do it. The poem with the title 'a message to Turks' says that Turkic people of Afghanistan need to wake up, and reunite and forget about the hate left in some peoples hearts from the past, and they should clean Afghanistan from those(terrorists) who sell our country to others or those who distroy our country(eg Buddhas of Bamiyan). It basically says that a united Turkic group of people can build a green and peaceful country in the future.


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 13:11
Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

can we have English translations on the non-English content. thanks
Did you want line by line translation? Its a bit hard and takes time to translate them that way, but if you want I will do it. The poem with the title 'a message to Turks' says that Turkic people of Afghanistan need to wake up, and reunite and forget about the hate left in some peoples hearts from the past, and they should clean Afghanistan from those(terrorists) who sell our country to others or those who distroy our country(eg Buddhas of Bamiyan). It basically says that a united Turkic group of people can build a green and peaceful country in the future.
  a rough translation is fine, its just that this is an English only forum, so if such things get posted translations need to accompany it, thats all.

 Aimiq are hazara? have you got any more info on that

BTW welcome to the forumSmile



Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

  a rough translation is fine, its just that this is an English only forum, so if such things get posted translations need to accompany it, thats all.

 Aimiq are hazara? have you got any more info on that

BTW welcome to the forumSmile

Thanks! Smile
 
Aimaqs are in two groups in Afghanistan:
- Northern Afghanistan Aimaqs
- Western Afghanstan Aimaqs(on the border of Iran and Afghanistan)
 
They reason why they are divided in two groups is because they are different from each other. They were both once known as Hazaras, but Western Aimaqs in Afghanistan started getting mixed with the iranians, and some even say they are Persian. They speak Hazaragi dailect, with more persian words. Some unfortunately try to take some clans out of the Hazara tribe to make Hazara population smaller, that way they can get rid of the name Hazara slowly. Some Hazaras in northern Afghanistan were forced to have Tajiki passports and ID's for the same reason. In many books or sites they classify Western Aimaqs as a separate tribe. Western Aimaqs are divided into four groups:
 
1- Jamshidi
2- Temuri
3- Taimani
4- ----------(dont remember this 1!)
 
But the Northern Aimaqs are pure and proud Hazaras. They are one single Hazara clan, and you can easily tell if a Hazara family is Aimaq just by their surenames, 'Aimaq'!


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:15
Quote Naimani
Turkomans = Turkmens, you see, we can't say Hazara Turkmen, Jaghuri Hazara or Borchigin Hazara or Besud Hazara etc we must keep the name Hazara away from clan names because its gets confusing. Hazara is more like a unity in which there are many Turkic and Mongol clans, from Hunnus to Aimaq Hazaras of Temur khaans army.
 
So is Hazara a pollitical name for the tribal confederation of clans and tribes in the region? There are many Mongol and Turkic clans in the area and they united in a pollitical formation of Hazaras?
 
If so this seems similar to the "Qashqai", in similar fashion Qashqai are an island of Turks in a sea of non-Turks which seems similar to the Hazara (except for there being a heavy Mongol presence aswell).
 
The Qashqai also are a confederation of Turkic tribes, mainly belonging to the branches of the Oghuz Igdyr, Yazyr, Afshar, Bayats, Begdilli... which were united in the Fars region of Iran by "Cani Aga Qashqai".
 
 
 
"A message to Turks":

الا ای تـورکتبــاران تــورکتبـــاران

بهــم یکجـا شویــد چون ابر وباران

بجــوشیـــد و بغریـــد و بباریـــــــد

بـه شهـر و ده و دشت و کوهساران

زمیــن و خـاک را سرسبز سازیــد

زبــــاغ و بوستــــان و کشتـــزاران

بنــا سازیــــد فرهنــــگ نوینــــــی

هزاره اوزبیک وتورک * وتتاران

شمـــا هستیــــد تهـــــداب تمــــــدن

دریـــن خطـه دریـن ملک ودیاران

بسوزیــــد کینــه های قرن هـــا را

بسازیــــد بــا تمــــام همــــجواران

ز بلــــخ و بامیـــان وغور وغزنـه

زکابــــل تـا هـــرات و قندهـــاران

رها سازیـــد این ملــک و وطن را

زدســــت تنبـــلان و مفتــــخواران

شماییـــــد جـــزء فرهنگ جهــانی

شمــا مســؤل این خاکـــید یــــاران

ز وحـــدت زنـده گـردد هویـت مــا

همــان هویـت که سالستش هزاران.

Thumbs%20Up 


-------------
      ôWhat we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.ö
Albert Pine



Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:28
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
So is Hazara a pollitical name for the tribal confederation of clans and tribes in the region? There are many Mongol and Turkic clans in the area and they united in a pollitical formation of Hazaras?
 
If so this seems similar to the "Qashqai", in similar fashion Qashqai are an island of Turks in a sea of non-Turks which seems similar to the Hazara (except for there being a heavy Mongol presence aswell).
 
The Qashqai also are a confederation of Turkic tribes, mainly belonging to the branches of the Oghuz Igdyr, Yazyr, Afshar, Bayats, Begdilli... which were united in the Fars region of Iran by "Cani Aga Qashqai".
 
Well done Big%20smile Hazara are a confederation of Turkic-o-Mongol clans from both:
- Turks of before Mongol empire(who were in Afghanistan for around 2300 years)
- Turks and Mongols of the Ilkhaanid and Chaghataian empires
 
Yes, the tribes that live in Hazarajat areas are all Turk-o-Mongol.
 
The fact is that we didnt choose to be called Hazaras, it was people from other tribes who started calling us by the name Hazara when we had no power, after the collapse of Ilkhaanids.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 14:30
Im glad you understand the meaning of that poem Bulldog Thumbs%20Up


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:00
This is the translation for the Turkic part. The speaker pronounces the words with kind of a dialect.

"ta'rifini aylayin bir nicha muzi baini"

ta'rif = (originally Arabic; also in Persian) description , aylayin = (kind of a dialect; originally 'eyleyin') from 'eyle-mek' = to do, to accomplish , byr nicha = (kind of a dialect; originally 'byr neche' or 'byr nyche') = some, a few , muzi = sly???(if this is of Persian origin) , bay = rich


"I tell the story of some sly rich men"

---------

"gerdnimga alda'b ordi bit paykal boghdaini"

gerdnim = my neck??? (if this is of Persian origin) , aldab = having deceived , ordi = harvested , bit paykal = ? , boghday = (kind of a dialect; originally bughday) wheat


"having deceived me, he cut my neck ...? the wheat"

---------

"hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama"

hech = (from Persian hich) nobody, nothing , banda = (originally 'slave', but now used as) 'man', 'human' , khuda = Persian 'God' , oraq = harvest , dochar ailama = don't involve


"God! Don't involve anybody in harvest (to work as farmhand)"

---------

"demginem 'echimga toshdi kimga aytayo ayni"

demgin = ? , echimga = to my soul (let's say!) , toshdi = (kind of a dialect; originally tŘshdy) fell into , kim = who , aytay = I say , ayni = ?


" ? fell into my soul (it means 'my heart burns' - sorry for the bad translation!); who should I say this to?"

---------

"ondan kien chotlama sang chotla gin och aini"

ondan = from that , kien = more , chotlamasang = if you don't wreck , chotlagin = wreck , och = ? , ayni = ?

"If you don't get hurt more, ...?"

---------

"hech bandanagni khuda oraqeqa dochar 'ailama"


"God! Don't involve anybody in harvest (to work as farmhand)"

-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:15
Thanks Naimani for the Hazaragi poem, but I could only understand a few words:

Jawoni = youth, sharob = wine , yaadi yar = love's memorial , noz = (I don't know how to say it in English) , saz o dutar = songs and music instrument (Dutar) , hamesha = always , khanda = laughter


Could you please translate this? I really appreciate this also if you could tell me what all those 'ishil's mean.

-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:20
Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

 
There are:
Besud - Mongol (Chinggis Khaan was a Borchegen Besud too)
Naiman - Mongol
Dai-Zangies - Mongol
Dai-Kundies - Mongol
 
Jaghuries - Turkic
Turkomans - Turkic
Tatars - Turkic
Aimaq - Turkic
 
 
What does it mean the word "AIMAK" in turkic language? Do you turkic language group people use this word for  contemporary  usage?
 
AFAIK, this word AIMAK/ AIMAG is Mongolian word for tribe. Contemporary Mongolians use it as first level administrative subdivision (Provinces)- "AIMAG".
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimag - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimag


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 04:32
Originally posted by ProMongol ProMongol wrote:

What does it mean the word "AIMAK" in turkic language? Do you turkic language group people use this word for  contemporary  usage?
 
AFAIK, this word AIMAK/ AIMAG is Mongolian word for tribe. Contemporary Mongolians use it as first level administrative subdivision (Provinces)- "AIMAG".
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimag - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimag
I'm not sure about its meaning, but the Aimaq clans of Afghanistan and Mongolia have the same origin, in fact they were one single tribe in the past.
 
I think Aimaq and Aimak/Aimag mean the same thing, except they are pronounced differently.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 08:22
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

Thanks Naimani for the Hazaragi poem, but I could only understand a few words:

Jawoni = youth, sharob = wine , yaadi yar = love's memorial , noz = (I don't know how to say it in English) , saz o dutar = songs and music instrument (Dutar) , hamesha = always , khanda = laughter


Could you please translate this? I really appreciate this also if you could tell me what all those 'ishil's mean.
 
Sure mate! "ishil" means 'green', so "laata ishil" means, 'the girl with green scarf'
 
Jawoni erkatu ya laata ishil(young and pretty is the girl with the green scarf)
Amil taaye goloya laata ishil(has a necklace around her neck, the girl with the green scarf)
 
Sharob ochi ni da yaadi yaar khu(I'm drinking wine in the memory of my lover)
Qanjeghe ma noz ni qad saz o dutar khu(You're sitting next to me with your Dutar)
 
Ma ra ki togh muna az taaye orsi(She looks at me from a window)
Hamesha khanda roya laata ishil(Always has a smaile on her face, the girl with the green scarf)
 
Laata = scarf
Ochi = drink
Qachegha = next to
Amel/Amil = necklace


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 17:26
Thanks Naimani. Now,I can recognize more words "khanda roya" = "has a smiley face", "golu" = neck.

"Green" is "yashil" or sometimes "yeshil" in Turkic. Also, "to drink" is 'ich=mek'.

By the way, "aimaq' or "oimaq' in Turkic is the same as Mongolian. Originally, it means 'branch, devision', but it's used to point to tribes.

-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Jalair
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 20:13
Naiman what is the meaning of Dai? Is it a Mongol word? As far as I know there is four clans of Hazara their name begins with Dai:
 
Dai Zangi
Dai Kundi
Dai Chupan
Dai Mirdad
 
What about other two, are they Mongol?


-------------
Zarra


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 05:47
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

Thanks Naimani. Now,I can recognize more words "khanda roya" = "has a smiley face", "golu" = neck.

"Green" is "yashil" or sometimes "yeshil" in Turkic. Also, "to drink" is 'ich=mek'.

By the way, "aimaq' or "oimaq' in Turkic is the same as Mongolian. Originally, it means 'branch, devision', but it's used to point to tribes.
You are welcome Gok Toruk! By the way 'Ishil' is pronounced differently by different clans. Jaghuri clans also pronounce it as "Yishil".
 
Originally posted by Jalair Jalair wrote:

Naiman what is the meaning of Dai? Is it a Mongol word? As far as I know there is four clans of Hazara their name begins with Dai:
 
Dai Zangi
Dai Kundi
Dai Chupan
Dai Mirdad
 
What about other two, are they Mongol?
 
Nice, you even know about Dai Chupans!
 
I think Mongolians might know more about the Dai clans. I don't know anything about their name. They say that they are the only Ilkhaanid remnants, but there were also Besuds and Turkomans who were Ilkhaanids. So they make is a bit confusing for us.
 
There are actually more Dai groups but because they are small in numbers you don't hear people mentioning them, unless you visit Hindu Kush moutain ranges of Central and Northern Afghanistan and see them yourself. Such as Dai Fulat...etc. Yes all Dai groups are Mongol with Turkoman mix. Their Hazaragi language is Turkic and Mongol mixed, unlike the Jaghuries who are mainly Turkic or the Besud, Borjigin, Naiman and Nikodari who are mainly ancient Khalkha Mongol. Dai groups would have been one of the biggest Hazara clans if they were all in the same area. But they are scattered all around Central and Northern Afghanistan. At the moment Jaghuries make up the majority of Hazara population.
 
I think Hazaras of Dai Chupan are very brave. Thousands and thousands of them went to Turkmanistan, China and Pakistan when Amir Abdur Rahman, the King of Afghanistan at that time forced them out of their homes in 1885. Shafa Khaan was a Dai Chupan leader from Maska regions of Hazarajat who was also defeated and escaped to Chinaraan on the border of Pakistan. But then he returned and got a large government land in Northern Afghanistan and slowly expanded his area till he got all Gharaw-Shaakh areas in Baghlan. And invited Hazaras to live in there and gave them land for free.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 13:55

Here are some of the Hazara clans who live outside Hazarajat(Central Afghanistan):

- Qalluq Hazaras of Khan Abad
- Ali Abad, and Takhar Hazaras
- Shekh Ali Hazaras to the east of Khan Abad
- Gar Gag Hazaras to the north of Baghlan
- Nikpai Hazaras between Khanad and Qundoz
- Koh Gadai Hazaras to the west of Nahrin
- Quzi Hazaras to the south of Nahrin and east of Khan Abad
- Tulai Hazaras to the south of Nahrin (named after Tulai Khan, the son of Changhiz Khan)
- Dala Pas Kindi to the west of Nahrin and east of Andarab
- Joy Kand Hazaras in Khan Abad
- Naiman Hazaras to the north of Baghlan
- Kolo Hazaras in Herat near the historical monuments
- Ghoriyan Hazaras in Herat; Badghis, Jawand, Darra-e Kashroo, Dai, Dah Marda, Khosha, and Lazir Hazaras around herat
- Dai Mirak Hazaras to the north and in Sholtoo
- Qora Khowal
- Nekudari
- Diwanah Qishlaq valleys
- Chal Hazaras in Iskhamish
- Hazaras of Dar-e-Hazara in Panjsher
- Koh Ghinar Hazaras in Baghlan
- Babolah Hazaras in Samangan
- Qaghai
- Qul Bars
- Bqara Batoor
- Yangai Qala
- Main Mana
- Khamisi
- Qalai Qisar
- Bab Vali
- Pul-e Khumri and Badakhshan Hazaras etc.
 
Source: (Gharjistani, 1988:275-280)


-------------
Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 18:05
It's really interesting to see old Altaic words still present among Hazaras. Thanks for your informative posts Naimani.

-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 01:30
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

It's really interesting to see old Altaic words still present among Hazaras. Thanks for your informative posts Naimani.
Wink
 
I hope that readers find out a bit about Northern Afghanistan Hazaras too, not just Hazaras of Central Afghanistan. In the North, Hazaras reside mainly in Qataghan and Turkistan regions:
 
Naimans are one of the clans living outside Hazarajat, in Baghlan. We've had our own Khaans and Amirs eg. Amir Hazara Khaan who was Amir of Qataghan in 1740's and etc.


-------------
Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 21:40
Originally posted by ProMongol ProMongol wrote:

Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

 
There are:
Besud - Mongol (Chinggis Khaan was a Borchegen Besud too)
Naiman - Mongol
Dai-Zangies - Mongol
Dai-Kundies - Mongol
 
Jaghuries - Turkic
Turkomans - Turkic
Tatars - Turkic
Aimaq - Turkic
 
 
What does it mean the word "AIMAK" in turkic language? Do you turkic language group people use this word for  contemporary  usage?
 
AFAIK, this word AIMAK/ AIMAG is Mongolian word for tribe. Contemporary Mongolians use it as first level administrative subdivision (Provinces)- "AIMAG".
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimag - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimag
 
In Uyghur Turkic we use "Uruq-Aymaq", meaning the clans. "Uruq" originally meaning "Seed".  "Aymaq" might came from the word "Ayrimaq" meaning "deviding".
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2008 at 21:42
Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

You are welcome Gok Toruk! By the way 'Ishil' is pronounced differently by different clans. Jaghuri clans also pronounce it as "Yishil".
 
 
In contemporary Uyghur Turkic it is pronounced as "Yeshil".
 
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 05:49
Well, in Turkmen, we almost always pronounce it as 'oy-moq'. Note that it's not like Uzbek way of writing 'a' (as in "water") in which they use 'o' instead. We pronounce it as 'oy-moq' or in some tribes as 'oy-maq'. This verb means "to get devided, to get cut":
 
"Yer oyulty" = (I don't know how to put into right words in English! But) The earth got opened (in an earthquake, for instance).
 
"oyuq, oyuq" = pieces and pieces


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:52

"Ayrimaq" and "Oymaq" are two different words in Uyghur.

Ayrimaq: seperate, devide
 
Oymaq: (either my english is poor, or english is a poor language) a kind of act that you make a dent in something. It's different from digging. You make a shape of a basin in something with this act. Basin in Uyghur is called "Oymanliq".
 
By the meaning of Aymaq, I prefer to relate it to the first word Ayrimaq, ie deviding.
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 10:29
"Oymaq" is exactly the way you explained. I can't put it into correct words either!
 
In Turkmen also, 'ayir-maq' and 'oy-maq' are two different verbs. We just haven't got 'aymaq'. You know, Turkmen is, as far as I know, the only Turkic language that uses vowel length (and a few more techniques, like shifting between vowels or adding a consonant) to distinguish two very similar, different stems:
 
almost everyone in Turkic says "ot" (grass) and "ot" (fire) or "bar" (to go, to reach) and "bar" (there is), for instance, in the same way. But Turkmen, here, uses the vowel length to differentiate two stems that were different in the Proto tongue, but is now almost the same.
 
There was, for sure, a lost vowel or consonant among either the first "ot" or the second one, but Turkic has lost it over time. Turkmen, although can't determine it exactly (or maybe it was really the vowel length), but reveals this by differentiating them, now let's say, by vowel length.
 
You can even find examples to avoid being rude! This might seem funny, but in Turkmen, Turkic "am-raq" is pronounced "ham-raq" to avoid sounding like "am" which is impolite, you know.
 
In Turkmen, there's no word with two or more meanings. That's why I was just wondering if 'ayirmaq' and 'oy-maq' are of the same origin; because in Turkmen, it should be then "ay-maq".
 
Anyhow, I'm not sure. You might be right.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Sukhbaatar
Date Posted: 28-May-2008 at 14:22
Hazara people are very proud of their roots. I don't count the topic starter - as there has been many Pashtuni and Islamic attempts to destroy the Hazara people. As much as the Afghans can deny it, look it up anywhere in your local library about the history behind the Pashtuns and Hazaras.
 
Naimani is the voice of a true Hazara, who's obviously taken over this thread.
Long live the Hazara nation!


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-May-2008 at 01:41
Dear Sukhabaatar,
 
You might not mean trouble, but please be careful while saying something like "Pushtuni and Islamic attempts to destroy Hazara people." We don't need ethnic hate wars here.
 
Please remaind friendly and respectful towards the other members (we do have Afghans and Pusthuns in this forum).
 
Hazara people are Muslims BTW, so your statement about Islamic attempts to destroy them doesn't make much sense.
 
Thank you.


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╬ú╬▒¤ů¤ü╬┐╬╝╬Ȥä╬̤é


Posted By: Sukhbaatar
Date Posted: 29-May-2008 at 04:14
Very well
 
To answer your query - there's different sects of Islam, Hazaras are Shi'a, Pashtuns are not - and I encourage the readers to study into Hazara/Pashtun history as well.


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-May-2008 at 05:47
Both Shia and Sunni are Muslims and adherents of "Islamic faith." Yes, encouragement to study the history is the good advice. Ethnic conflicts and misunderstandings happen exactly because people are reluctant to study from their own history.

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╬ú╬▒¤ů¤ü╬┐╬╝╬Ȥä╬̤é


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 17:12
Originally posted by Sukhbaatar Sukhbaatar wrote:

Very well
 
To answer your query - there's different sects of Islam, Hazaras are Shi'a, Pashtuns are not - and I encourage the readers to study into Hazara/Pashtun history as well.
 
This is not true.  There are Pashtun tribes that are Shia.  They live in the NWFP and Quetta mostly.  I believe it is the tribes of Tori and Bangash but I could be wrong.


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: jankhan
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 02:35
hi Naimani im jan.. You seem to have alot of information about aghanistan and hazara history thats good. here u can see an old picture of a hazara family taken may be in 1878.
http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95203528&uid=213370885 - http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95203528&uid=213370885


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 05:19
Thanks bro. By the way, it would be great if you can post more photos like that one. Its beautiful, you can see their tents in the background.
 
Here are some more pics of Hazara tents
 


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Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: jankhan
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 05:57
thanks for that. do u know where these pics or taken from?
      
 this another old pic by the time of panjdhe crisis on our nation when british where pushing the pushthoons into afghanistan to destroy hazara. my be its also  from 1878-1890.
http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95216273&uid=213370885#state=1_0 - http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95216273&uid=213370885#state=1_0
 
  this one is the oldest pic of hazara tribe i have found. looks like painting but it was taken with a old camera
http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95216273&uid=213370885#state=2_0 - http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95216273&uid=213370885#state=2_0     
 
this was our castle in kabul
http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95216273&uid=213370885#state=3_0 - http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95216273&uid=213370885#state=3_0


Posted By: jankhan
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 06:21
http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95217652&uid=213370885 - http://www.tagged.com/photo_view.html?photoId=95217652&uid=213370885


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 07:01
Awesome! Thanks a lot berar jo.
 
The pics I posted were all taken in Bamiyan and Yakawlang in different times. Are you from Sydney khel?


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Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: TAMER LANE
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 10:31
Hello. I`m mongolian. i think It`s not a pan turk. it`s pan HUN. Mongols Turkic people all is a GREAT HUN`S posterity. WE ARE ALL IS BROTHERHOOD. 


Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 13:02
Originally posted by TAMER LANE TAMER LANE wrote:

Hello. I`m mongolian. i think It`s not a pan turk. it`s pan HUN. Mongols Turkic people all is a GREAT HUN`S posterity. WE ARE ALL IS BROTHERHOOD. 
Yes I am with you


Posted By: jankhan
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 07:32
I m in Adelaide


Posted By: Asawar Hazaraspa
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 11:18
Hazara mongol or turk won't make any claim for Turks on lands of Iranian people in the future.


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 11:40
Yes TAMER LANE, we are all brothers!

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Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 21:38
Originally posted by Naimani Naimani wrote:

Thanks bro. By the way, it would be great if you can post more photos like that one. Its beautiful, you can see their tents in the background.
 
Here are some more pics of Hazara tents
 
 
 
These are not Hazara tents.  These are Turcoman and Aimaq tents in Hazarajat.  They used to migrated to Hazarajat and build their yurts.  I'm not sure if they still do this anymore in Hazarajat.
 
 


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 22:24

I think others know more about Hazaras than you, so there is no need for your concern Afghanan. Besides Hazara is made up of more than 40 tribes, including Turkoman and Aimag. There is no such thing as a Hazara tribe, its a confederation of many Altaic tribes. You will make more sense if you learn before you talk.



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Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 04:40

First off,   its Hazaras that are making pictures of "Ancient" Hazaras who created the Buddhas of Bamian when it is well known that they had nothing to do with it. 

2nd of all, Aimaq and Turcomans do not consider themselves Hazara.  THey do not even speak Hazaragi Farsi.  Most Hazaras in Afghanistan are Shia, Turcomans and Aimaq are Sunnis. 
 
Those pictures you posted are over 20 years old, and from a time when Aimaq and Turcoman nomads travelled to Bamian and setup their Yurts. 
 
I'm not against Hazaras, but at least don't throw out inaccuracies about the Hazaras.
 
 


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 04:41
Dear participants of the thread,
 
Please allow me to make a reminder about All Empires Code of Conduct. According to it, ethnic thrive and wars are not allowed on this forum.
 
Nothing serious has happened here yet. But I, as a moderator, just want to prevent any possible problems in this regard in the future.
 
Please remain respectful to each other and continue friendly discussion.
 
Thank you !


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╬ú╬▒¤ů¤ü╬┐╬╝╬Ȥä╬̤é


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 04:57
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Dear participants of the thread,
 
Please allow me to make a reminder about All Empires Code of Conduct. According to it, ethnic thrive and wars are not allowed on this forum.
 
Nothing serious has happened here yet. But I, as a moderator, just want to prevent any possible problems in this regard in the future.
 
Please remain respectful to each other and continue friendly discussion.
 
Thank you !
 
Noted, thank you.


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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: jankhan
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 05:18
Yeah brother we are all brothers doesn't matter shia or sunni, hazara or non hazara. our faces feature and body structure proves that we are brother with all central asians. and we dream of family reunion. Inshalla.
 
 
My introduction: I m Jan and I am from Ghazni Provence. 
Where are you from?


Posted By: Naimani
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 06:17

Firstly, Hazaras are Shia, Sunni and Ismaili Muslims, not just Shia.

Secondly, there are two Turkoman tribes in Afghanistan. Turkomans who reside on the Turkoman mountain in Hazarajat belong to Hazara. They live very close to Qul Khesh and Besud Hazaras. The non-Hazara Turkomans are the one who live up north in Khinjan and around Mazar-e-Sharif.
 
Wherever I find wrong info about my people, I will be there to correct it. I wouldn't give you wrong information about my people, Afghanan.


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Rogho da taye aash khaw namumana!


Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 20:55

Hazaras are Turkish People, and Hazar Country (HAZAR DEVLETI) is the most lifely country. I meant that : There were a lot of Turkish people like huns, uygurs, g├Âkt├╝rks etc.. but Hazars are most long lived.

You can see it from here, I think you will understand more clearly . Thank you!
 
b├╝y├╝k hun imparatorlu─ču
bat─▒ hun imparatorlu─ču
avrupa hun imparatorlu─ču
ak hun imparatorlu─ču
g├Âkt├╝rk imparatorlu─ču
avar imparatorlu─ču
hazar imparatorlu─ču
uygur devleti
karahanl─▒lar
gazneliler
b├╝y├╝k sel├žuk imparatorlu─ču
harzem┼čahlar
alt─▒nordu devleti
b├╝y├╝k timur imparatorlu─ču
bab├╝r imparatorlu─ču
osmanl─▒ imparatorlu─ču (ottoman)
 
the names are Turkish, but you can understand.


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We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK



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