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How would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?

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Forum Description: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
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Topic: How would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Subject: How would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 08:08
Now, I know this topic is not going to be hot , because I believe that only few of you might have heard albanian for a significative time. But reading some diferent threads about how would other languages sound, I took the courage to open this new topic.
How does albanian sound to the ears of a non-ethnic albanian, be it a speaker or not. Does it sound similar to other languages? Does it sound easy or difficult to pronounce?Have you ever tried to pronounce any albanian words?

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Prej heshtjes...!



Replies:
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 09:27
If you seen the movie "Inside Man" there is a part where the bank robbers play tapes of Enver Hoxha in order to confuse the police. They play this aloud and it seems no one in New York knows how Albanian sounds like but some of them make bad guesses such as Bulgarian and Armenian. Then they get a hooker or something (which by the way speaks with a heavy slavic accent) and she tells them that its Albanian. I doubt most people would know how it sounds like and the fact that its an isolated Indo-European language explains it.

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: osmanlija
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 11:27
I heard people speaking Albanian in Macedonia.It looks like soft language and i think how Albanians pronounce "r" is very funny.I heard the word "ari" which means bee in Turkish.It was completely different with Turkish "ari".Although i though Albanians are tough people usually,their language is soft.I have a friend called "Halil" from Tirana.He speaks Turkish with a very soft accent.And  we usually laugh him when he pronounces "r".He says "kardeşim"in a very funny way.No offense to any albanian but usually when boys speak like him,people call them "sissies" or "gays" here.Smile


Posted By: osmanlija
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 11:28
I heard people speaking Albanian in Macedonia.It looks like soft language and i think how Albanians pronounce "r" is very funny.I heard the word "ari" which means bee in Turkish.It was completely different with Turkish "ari".Although i though Albanians are tough people usually,their language is soft.I have a friend called "Halil" from Tirana.He speaks Turkish with a very soft accent.And  we usually laugh him when he pronounces "r".He says "kardeşim"in a very funny way.No offense to any albanian but usually when boys speak like him,people call them "sissies" or "gays" here.SmileLastly i wanna say that Albanian isnt like any other language that i have heard before


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 11:30
I think it's a very pretty language. It reminds me on Turkish sometimes, there's that weird... like when an Albanian says harroj, it reminds me when a Turk says boyle. It's just a weird place in the throat for the "o".

I find Albanian very raw, very... passion sounds good with Albanian. This might be a bad comparrison, but I think Adolf Hitler's speeches in Albanian would have sounded quite beautiful. You know, minus the subject matter.


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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 11:33
Originally posted by vulkan02 vulkan02 wrote:

If you seen the movie "Inside Man" there is a part where the bank robbers play tapes of Enver Hoxha in order to confuse the police. They play this aloud and it seems no one in New York knows how Albanian sounds like but some of them make bad guesses such as Bulgarian and Armenian. Then they get a hooker or something (which by the way speaks with a heavy slavic accent) and she tells them that its Albanian. I doubt most people would know how it sounds like and the fact that its an isolated Indo-European language explains it.


I loved that scene! As soon as the American construction guy said it was Albanian, I thought - oh God, they're going to bring in some folk dancer to decipher it.

I was praying for a good Balkan stereotype, and I got one. This hot woman with a skin-tight green dress walks into the booth, hands over a little gift bag.

"What's this?"
"Parking tickets, you'll take care of it?"
"You can't smoke in here..."
"Stern Smile"

I loved it. I was so pleased that they didn't put a folk dancer. I love when international movies make fun of us in the same ways we do.


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[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 13:21
Originally posted by osmanlija osmanlija wrote:

I heard people speaking Albanian in Macedonia.It looks like soft language and i think how Albanians pronounce "r" is very funny.I heard the word "ari" which means bee in Turkish.It was completely different with Turkish "ari".Although i though Albanians are tough people usually,their language is soft.I have a friend called "Halil" from Tirana.He speaks Turkish with a very soft accent.And  we usually laugh him when he pronounces "r".He says "kardeşim"in a very funny way.No offense to any albanian but usually when boys speak like him,people call them "sissies" or "gays" here.SmileLastly i wanna say that Albanian isnt like any other language that i have heard before
 
Just a correction, bee in english would be bletė/bleta in albanian. The albanian word ari/ariu means bear, while the albanian ar/ari means gold. The albanian arė/ara means agrarian land/field. And regarding Kardesim, the turkish word for brother, in albanian has a totally different meaning, and makes it difficult for people to pronounce it (especially when they are shy and polite).I will not translate the meaning it takes in albanian, it will be probably on another topic on albanian swearing (just a coincidence, homophonie, nothing related to turkish).


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: Tangriberdi
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 14:27

Here in Turkey I had chance to hear what like Albanian is. It is a language softer than Yugo-Slavic languages, but harder than French. It is between Slavic and French in my opinion. When I heard native Albanian speakers I felt that they combined Serbo-Croatian and French somehow. Of course t's not true. But Albanian is pretty lovely. I like it. The only one which I love more is Turkish. Because I speak and understand it. It's my mother tongue.

Tongue


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 14:36
Everybody loves his/her mothertongue, thats naturalTongue

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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 15:29
I have listened to Albanian songs, especially by Merita Halili. While singing it's soft and sounds like slavic. However I haven't heard a long dialogue in Albanian. I had 2 Albanian friends and they spoke Turkish very well but sometimes they pronounced some words just like in Roumelian Turkish.

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Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 00:08
Originally posted by Mila Mila wrote:

Originally posted by vulkan02 vulkan02 wrote:

If you seen the movie "Inside Man" there is a part where the bank robbers play tapes of Enver Hoxha in order to confuse the police. They play this aloud and it seems no one in New York knows how Albanian sounds like but some of them make bad guesses such as Bulgarian and Armenian. Then they get a hooker or something (which by the way speaks with a heavy slavic accent) and she tells them that its Albanian. I doubt most people would know how it sounds like and the fact that its an isolated Indo-European language explains it.


I loved that scene! As soon as the American construction guy said it was Albanian, I thought - oh God, they're going to bring in some folk dancer to decipher it.

I was praying for a good Balkan stereotype, and I got one. This hot woman with a skin-tight green dress walks into the booth, hands over a little gift bag.

"What's this?"
"Parking tickets, you'll take care of it?"
"You can't smoke in here..."
"Stern Smile"

I loved it. I was so pleased that they didn't put a folk dancer. I love when international movies make fun of us in the same ways we do.


Yes but Albanians never have accents as heavy as that, well maybe except those who just move from the mountains to NYC but its still very distinct from that. She sounded and she even looked Bosnian lol ... wait I think she looked something like you no?!
But yeah passion does sound good in AlbanianWink and i know this for a fact. Albanian has many more tenses of verbs than english and one of them is called the "Wishing tense".
For example:
Te marrsha - "i Wish to take"
Te befsha - "I wish to do"
te Qifsha - Big smile
Now its just up to your imagination Mila.


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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 14:00
In the "Languages I've heard" I saw more people who posted they have heard albanian. Apparently they dont have an opinion about its sound, or what?

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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 09:21
I have been familiar with the albanian language for a long time, I can also speak some too. I think it's more like romanian to me. Not slavic-like, but more latin-like language.

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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 13:57
    

Long time ago, in the time of Ceausescu, I remember a day I saw a movie at tv, in an unknown language. I tried to guess what language was. I sounded uniform, sometimes I though is English or a latin language (I was very young and incult at the time), or Turkish or a Slavic language.

Later I found that was Albanian. I think it has a phonetic which is not matching with any other language, perhaps the closest is Romanian.

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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 18:42
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

    

Long time ago, in the time of Ceausescu, I remember a day I saw a movie at tv, in an unknown language. I tried to guess what language was. I sounded uniform, sometimes I though is English or a latin language (I was very young and incult at the time), or Turkish or a Slavic language.

Later I found that was Albanian. I think it has a phonetic which is not matching with any other language, perhaps the closest is Romanian.
 
Well, to slide from english to latin, and then turkish or slavic...
Regarding the albanian - romanian linguistic relation, you are right regarding the Phonetics, albanian shares similar characteristics with romanian. This probably comes from a similar background, albanian is a derivate of the old illyrian, with a share of latinized words, while romanian is a latin language developed on daco-thracian linguistic ground. There are theories regarding the relation between illyrian and thracian (dacian, getae, moesian). Some linguist historian believe that illyrian language was near to thracian perhaps as much as checz to slovak. This would explain also the amount of the pre-latin words, that romanian shares with albanian, as well as the phonetic similarities. Bukureshti, the romanian capital in albanian would mean is beautiful, bukur - beautiful, ėshtė - is, same (or similar to romanian).


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 19:55
Arber can you explain me where Shquip (not sure for the spelling) comes from? I mean what's the origin of this word, and it's litteral meaning, is it a word meaning something or just a name?

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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 20:32
Originally posted by Giannis Giannis wrote:

Arber can you explain me where Shquip (not sure for the spelling) comes from? I mean what's the origin of this word, and it's litteral meaning, is it a word meaning something or just a name?
 
Sure I can tell you.
Shqip means literally language of eagles shqipe/shqype/shkabe - eagle
I think shqipe - eagle has a similar IE root with a greek word meaning eagle (a greek friend told me, but i dont remember the word). The eagle is one of the symbols appearing more frequently in albanian folklore, more than other symbol animals (like the goat, or the snake for example)
The albanians used to call their language arberisht-arberore (which is the real ethnical name for the language), and they still do in many cases. But in the eighteenth century, while rresurrecting as a nation, the albanians started calling themselves Shqiptare/Shqyptare/Shkyptare meaning eagle-man, or suns of eagles, using as a symbol the Eagle of the Castriotes, and of Scanderbeg (Gjergj Kastrioti, Giorgio Castriota).the eagle was choosen also as a clear symbol showing no ethnical link with the ottomans, which always were regarded as occupators. Communities which were isolated outside albania, like the emmigrants settling in greece and in sth-italy in the XII century still call the language arberore/arberisht, and dont use Shqip, which started to gain popularity only in the XIX century.


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 21:31
Originally posted by Giannis Giannis wrote:

I have been familiar with the albanian language for a long time, I can also speak some too. I think it's more like romanian to me. Not slavic-like, but more latin-like language.
 
I agree.  The Albanians that I have heard speaking sounded Latin.  I thought that I could almost identify a few verb roots from my knowledge of Spanish.  


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 23:30
   

Quote Bukureshti, the romanian capital in albanian would mean is beautiful, bukur - beautiful, ėshtė - is, same (or similar to romanian).



Bucuresti come from root bucur, meaning joyness. The esti termination is the most common for Romanian villages and means a group of people. Like a family called, say, Bundy is called The Bundies.

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Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 16:02
I have heard an albanian folk song in Microsoft Encarta. It sounds just like the bulgarian folk songs from the Rhodopes mountain in Southern Bulgaria.


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The Intelligence wins


Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 12:48
Albanian to me sounds nothing like slavic. It sounds like latin. I confuse it with romanian very easily, as I'm not very familiar with any of the two languages (I've watched an albanian movie though, I've no idea of the title -good movie it was).
 
Arber, in Greek eagle is called 'aetos'. I haven't heard anything like shqipe or whatever.
The bear however resembles the albanian, as it is called 'arktos' (or 'arkouda' in more modern Greek). Field is also 'agros' which may be somehow related to your albanian.
 
Quote I have heard an albanian folk song in Microsoft Encarta. It sounds just like the bulgarian folk songs from the Rhodopes mountain in Southern Bulgaria.
You mean polyphonic? (Many people singing together, but not the same tune). I have also heard some such bulgarian songs. In greek populations of Albania and epirus they are quite common. They are though to be very ancient. Ancient Greeks are believed to have had such songs, but the strictly monophonic logic of byzantium (church music) changed this.


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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 13:26
Xristar, I am probably wrong about the greek word meaning eagle. anyway, there could be other synonymes as well, in albanian we have many words for eagle (and different kinds or sizes of eagles).
 
Eagle: Shqiponjė/a, Shqipe/ja, Shkype.ja, Shkabė/a, Zhgabė/a, Shkabonjė/a, Astrit/i, Petrit/i, Sokol/i, Skifter/i, Fajkua/oi (there are also other synonymes in albanian, but this is what it comes in mind right now). Probably in greek there could be synonymes also...
 
Polyphonic singing is traditional to many regions of albania, espacially in Toskėria (land of tosks) and in labėria (land of labs). But also in other regions we find biphonic, polyphonic and monophonic singing. I wouldnt say that we borrowed that from greek or bulgarians, that is just a charachteristic that we share in our folk culturesWink.
 
Just wanted to ask, what do you mean by sounds like latin? Like which latin language, cause romanian sounds different to italian, and both different to french, spanish, portuguese etc. Or do you mean just the old latin (how did it sound by the way??)


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 04:52

Not like italian. But I understand immediatelly that it is neither slavic, nor germanic. I probably wouldn't understand that it is albanian. Some languages like albanian, and romanian, I don't know them well enough to know them when I hear them, but they are different from other european languages.

About eagles, there are many types of eagles, subraces you could say. I don't know all of them. Generally they have names like stavraetos, thalassaetos etc.
Your names may reffer to different kinds of eagles, or perhaps to hawks. I know a hawk kind called 'petritis', which is the most common hawk in Greece.
 
About the polyphonic songs, I never said that you took it (it didn't even cross my mind actually). The history of these songs is lost in the blurry past.
(But I can't help but notice that the -tosk- arvanites of southern Greece don't have polyphonic songs. While the Greek epirotans have. eh ehEvil Smile)


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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 11:16

About the polyphonic songs, I never said that you took it (it didn't even cross my mind actually). The history of these songs is lost in the blurry past.

(But I can't help but notice that the -tosk- arvanites of southern Greece don't have polyphonic songs. While the Greek epirotans have. eh ehEvil Smile)
 
So it didnt even cross your mind huhAngry.
 
Anyway, the tosks, the ēams, and the labs, all living in Epirus, they all have polyphonic singing, but different. You can just search on google for it...
But this is of topic btw.
So albanian sounded like romanian to you


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 13:46
It crossed my mind after you said it.

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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.


Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 07:35
Albanian and Romanian don't sound similar to me.When I hear somebody speaking Romanian I instantly recognise the language and the same happens with the Albanian language.
Many words have been introduced in Albanian from the Italian language but this doesn't make Albanian a Romance language.
To me Albanian sounds rough not soft like Italian.Romanian sounds also very rough but in a different way(it has many -u)
I think that Albanian has a unique sound that is not similar to any other language 


Posted By: Serge L
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 09:10

We have many albanians here in Italy, so I had many occasions to hear them speak.

I agree with those who said that it sounds rather similar to Romance languages. Actually, I find the Albanian inflection closer to Italian one than, say, that of neo-latin tongues as French or Portuguese.

Albanian language sounds just a bit more whiny and drone than Italian to my hear, but not much -a lot less different, as to pronunciation alone- than other East European languages, at least. On the contrary, the lexicon is incomprensible to me, so when I hear Albanians talking in their language I have thge funny impression of Italian people who talk in an imaginary tongue, using words of their own invention, as kids sometime do for fun.

 



Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2006 at 20:49
You're right! Clap
The Albanian language has a sound very similar to the Italian. Some scholars even pinpoint the strange relationship between the word "tosk" (Tosco) -the albanese dialect of the south- and the word "toscana" or tuscany (the region of Florence).
For example, in Italy some linguists say that the italian language is "UN DIALETTO TOSCO" (a dialect "tosco").
The same experts associate the "ghego" dialect of northern Albania with a PARTIALLY neo-latin language! 
The reason: in the last centuries of the Western Roman Empire the Latin was spoken in the Balkan peninsula north of an imaginary line from the central coast of Albania to the central coast of Bulgaria, passing through the Rodopes mountains. South of that line the language spoken was old Greek. 
Becouse everybody agrees that the Albanese is derived from the old romanized South Illirian (spoken in those centuries in the actual Kosovo, Montenegro and north Albania), it is easy to understand from where comes the similarity of the italian sound and the albanian sound.Smile Bruno


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Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 07:02
The reason: in the last centuries of the Western Roman Empire the Latin was spoken in the Balkan peninsula north of an imaginary line from the central coast of Albania to the central coast of Bulgaria, passing through the Rodopes mountains. South of that line the language spoken was old Greek. 
Becouse everybody agrees that the Albanese is derived from the old romanized South Illirian (spoken in those centuries in the actual Kosovo, Montenegro and north Albania), it is easy to understand from where comes the similarity of the italian sound and the albanian sound.

First of all,how do you know that the sound of the Italian language was the same with the sound of the Latin language?
Second,what proves the connection between Illyrian and Albanian?


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 07:33

It is true that the latin influence on the modern albanian is due to the process of latinisation which happened in the adriatic shore during the first centuries AD. But in the mountains the process never completed, and in the region of Albania - Kosova there are plenty of mountains. So the albanian preserved its uniqueness, as well as a big amount of original vocabulary. But yes, it has some similarities with the romance languages.

Tosk and Toscano are not related actually. The modern Toscano probably took the name from a pre-latin language of the ethruscan populace of that zone. So the term is not of clear latin reference. The albanian Tosk comes from a tree, which was considered holy. I dont remember how is it in english, but it was the sacred tree of Zeus of Dodona. In albanian it is Dushk, from this derives Tosk.

Nikodimos, almost all of the known illyrian terms have a relative in modern albanian language. Is it just a casuality???And for your info, there are not few words known to be Illyrian. We have some hundreds of ethnonyms, like the names of the tribes, of the places, of the rivers, of the mountains, of the persons...And the majority of these are explained through albanian.



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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 08:11
Arber is ancient illyrian taught in school or in university, in Albania? And , if yes can you provide me which universities?

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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 16:32
Originally posted by Giannis Giannis wrote:

Arber is ancient illyrian taught in school or in university, in Albania? And , if yes can you provide me which universities?
 
Dear Giannis, your question sounds funny, but I will answer seriously, respecting your dignity.
No, ancient Illyrian is not taught in Albania, or somewhere else. This is because from the ancient Illyrian we know only ethnonyms, and some words. The language was not documentated (the illyrians didnt write much, and when they did, for ceremonial or governmental purposes, they used greek and after that latin).Freom the small thesaurus of Illyrian words we can state the relation between the albanian language and the ancient illyrian.
If you would like to know where is Illyrian taught, why didnt you make a research yourself. Everybody knows that from the ancient illyrian language we know just a bit...


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 23:32
Originally posted by Arbėr Z Arbėr Z wrote:

It is true that the latin influence on the modern albanian is due to the process of latinisation which happened in the adriatic shore during the first centuries AD. But in the mountains the process never completed, and in the region of Albania - Kosova there are plenty of mountains. So the albanian preserved its uniqueness, as well as a big amount of original vocabulary. But yes, it has some similarities with the romance languages.

Tosk and Toscano are not related actually. The modern Toscano probably took the name from a pre-latin language of the ethruscan populace of that zone. So the term is not of clear latin reference. The albanian Tosk comes from a tree, which was considered holy. I dont remember how is it in english, but it was the sacred tree of Zeus of Dodona. In albanian it is Dushk, from this derives Tosk. 

 
In Italian he word Tosco is derived from the word eTrOSCO (or etrusco), in a typical linguistic "contraction", similar to the one that created the english city-name YorK from the latin word Eburacum (eb=Y, u=O, r=R, ac=K).    The Etruscan (who lived in modern Tuscany) moved to central Italy probably from the Balkan peninsula before the founding of Rome. The famous historian Theodor Mommsen asserted ( in his masterpiece "The provinces of the Roman Empire") that they were related with the Illyrians, who populated the areas from the Po river to ancient Epirus. Indeed the Veneti (of the Veneto region around Venice) was an Illyrian tribe.  All this shows an historical connection between the Etruscan civilization and the Illyrian people.
There is an extensive literature supporting the influences of the Latin language in the southern Illyrian populations, even in those living near Moesia (actual Serbia): nothing denies that the sound of these romanized languages could be similar to the one used in the italian peninsula.  
Indeed  I am not saying that the word Tosk is related to the word Tosco, but only that some scholars have pinpointed the strange similarity........  
Finally we must remember that the Latin influence in the Albanian people was reintroduced (but only superficially) during the Renaissance by the Venetian expansion in the adriatic Balkans.
So, the italian linguist M. Trifone declared -after research done during the fascist occupation of Albania in WWII- that 55 % of the Ghego (northern albanian dialect) vocabulary comes from the Latin.  That percentage of words with Latin roots is similar to the one in the English vocabulary: another strange similarity........(of course, I am not saying that Ghego and English are related.....Big smile)
Bruno


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Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 02:54
Originally posted by Arbλr Z Arbλr Z wrote:

Originally posted by Giannis Giannis wrote:

Arber is ancient illyrian taught in school or in university, in Albania? And , if yes can you provide me which universities?
 
Dear Giannis, your question sounds funny, but I will answer seriously, respecting your dignity.
No, ancient Illyrian is not taught in Albania, or somewhere else. This is because from the ancient Illyrian we know only ethnonyms, and some words. The language was not documentated (the illyrians didnt write much, and when they did, for ceremonial or governmental purposes, they used greek and after that latin).Freom the small thesaurus of Illyrian words we can state the relation between the albanian language and the ancient illyrian.
If you would like to know where is Illyrian taught, why didnt you make a research yourself. Everybody knows that from the ancient illyrian language we know just a bit...
 
I don't know much about illyrian, you seemed to have better knowledge on this matter that's why I asked. Anyway, I thought that illyrian language was documented, and I made the assumption that if latin and ancient greek are taught in universities, propably the illyrian would be taught too. So, I'm sorry for my ignorance, I didn't want to provocate anything. Thanks, for your answer. Smile


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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 07:17
 The Etruscan (who lived in modern Tuscany) moved to central Italy probably from the Balkan peninsula before the founding of Rome. The famous historian Theodor Mommsen asserted ( in his masterpiece "The provinces of the Roman Empire") that they were related with the Illyrians, who populated the areas from the Po river to ancient Epirus. Indeed the Veneti (of the Veneto region around Venice) was an Illyrian tribe.  All this shows an historical connection between the Etruscan civilization and the Illyrian people.
 
There is a certain claim about the linguistical links between the ethruscans and the illyrians. Also in this forum, in a previous thread a member (or ex member) trid to decipher the ethruscan tables (writings) through modern albanian. I checked that, and it made sense to a certain point of view. The writings took a meaning when read from right to left, an it sounded something kin to albanian. But I am not enthusiastic on this, if the facts are not accepted by a wide scientific community, than I dont use them as arguments. Anyway, also archaeologically, the ethruscans shared many similarities with the illyrians. But the extension of the illyrians is a bit wide geographically, so I dont believe that they constituted a unique ethnie, they probably had different ethnic groups and spoke different (but similar languages) Ethruscans and thracans could be somehow related to the illyrian group of languages. Only the southern illyrians, and the dalmatian coast (Illyrii proprie dicti) could be the antecedents of the modern albanians.
 
There is an extensive literature supporting the influences of the Latin language in the southern Illyrian populations, even in those living near Moesia (actual Serbia): nothing denies that the sound of these romanized languages could be similar to the one used in the italian peninsula.
 
That is incontestable, in the western balkans (Illyria) started a cultural-linguistical process of latinization. But if in Dacia the process was completed, and as a result we have a neolatin laguage, in Illyria only the very coastal cities latinised completely. The mainland remained original in many linguistical aspects, preserving the substratum. Than, in the northern ad eastern illyrian zones settled the slavs. Actually they settled everywhere, but in the north and in the east they outnumbered and assimilated the indigenes (illyrians, latinised and non)
  
Indeed  I am not saying that the word Tosk is related to the word Tosco, but only that some scholars have pinpointed the strange similarity........  
 
It could be also related, but we lack facts on this
 
Finally we must remember that the Latin influence in the Albanian people was reintroduced (but only superficially) during the Renaissance by the Venetian expansion in the adriatic Balkans.
So, the italian linguist M. Trifone declared -after research done during the fascist occupation of Albania in WWII- that 55 % of the Ghego (northern albanian dialect) vocabulary comes from the Latin.  That percentage of words with Latin roots is similar to the one in the English vocabulary: another strange similarity........(of course, I am not saying that Ghego and English are related.....Big smile)
 
55% is a bit exagerated, but anyway, he was a fashist so I guess he had a conflict of interests...


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Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 16:29
55% is very exagerated, GEG dialect is very rich...maybe have 5-6% latin words but 55% is very hilarous :)

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Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise


Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 17:44
Professor M. Trifone (the most renowned italian scholar in lexicology) is the actual Director of the Linguistic Center at the University of Siena (near Florence).  In his famous book "Tecniques of lexicology: comparisons between italian and english lexicologies" he uses italian research on the albanian language done between 1941 and 1942 and compares those "fascist" results with his own researches done in Albania in 1996/7.   He is a serious professional and is considered impartial by the international scholar community: fascist researchers wrote that  2/3 (or 66%) of the Ghego words have latin roots (through loanwords from the latin, the venetian dialect, the italian/spanish/french languages and the "Vlachs" dialect/language), but he reduced that amount to 55%.
There is a nearly complete lack of greek roots in the Ghego vocabulary (showing that the Ghego origins are from the latin speaking areas of the roman empire, north of the linguistic line I have named in my first intervention in this forum: as the scholar Trifone writes , the Albanians were pushed south by the Slavs invasions and in south Albania/Cameria they language evolved in the Tosk, that is full of Greek loanwords).
Indeed the Albanian communist government in 1945 changed the albanian language from Ghego centered to Tosk centered, even in order to cut the strong albanian ties to Italy and to the italian/latin language (that were created during the political union of Italy and Albania, between 1939 and 1943, under the Savoia Kingdom of Victor Emmanuel III). Approve
Bruno


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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 19:02
    

I think that important Greek roots in Albanian cann't exists because Greek influence was small all the time: in the Antiquity, in Early Middle Age and late Middle Age, as in modern times.

In Antiquity Illyrians were having contacts with Greeks in small degree. In early Middle Age (the period from 4th to 8th century) the region was not under the Greek influence but of the Romanic speaking and migratory Barbarians.

In the Middle Age the control and cultural influence of Byzance over these regions was almost inexistent. In the Ottoman period and in the Modern time too. So, why should the Greeks have influenced Illyrians or Albanians?

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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 05:47

Bruno, the differences between tosk and gheg are not in the vocabulary of both dialects. Tosk and Gheg share almost 90% of their vocabulary, the difference stays in the prononciation. Anyway, the dialects, in their several forms are mutually comprehenisble. Even the latin-originated words are shared by the dialects. Regarding the ancient greek words, they are to be found in the ghegs as well as in the tosks, and they are mostly words describing an agrarian life...Eqerem Cabej made many interesting studies regarding the latin and the ancient greek influences in albanian, and he presented his studies succesfully to the international science communities, during his life. The gheg and the tosk are two dialects which were formed in the last 5 centuries, so the latin influenced them the same.



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Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 21:37
You are right, the Greek language is irrelevant to the Albanian language.
Although Albanian has a host of borrowings from its neighbours, it shows exceedingly few evidences of contact with ancient Greek; one such is the Gheg mokŌn (Tosk mokŌr) "millstone," from the Greek mekhane'. 
Eqerem Cabet was the defensor of the greek language influences in the tosk dialect and arose to great importance in the scholar community of communist Albania mainly because he was close friend of the dictator Hoxha (and was born in the same southern albanian area around Argirocaster).
Obviously close contacts with the Romans gave many Latin loans; e.g., mik "friend," from Latin amicus; kŌndoj "sing, read" from cantare. Furthermore, such loanwords in Albanian attest to the similarities in development of the Latin spoken in the Balkans and of Romanian, a Balkan Romance tongue. For example, Latin paludem "swamp" became padulem, and then padure in Romanian and pyll in Albanian, both with a modified meaning, "forest." Conversely, Romanian also shares some apparently non-Latin indigenous terms with Albanian; e.g., Romanian brad, Albanian bredh "fir." Thus these two languages reflect special historical contacts of early medieval relationships in the same geographical areas. Many Italian loanwords can be attributed to cultural contacts of the past 500 years with Venetians and Neapolitans.
A fair number of features--e.g., the formation of the future tense and of the noun phrase--are shared with other languages of the Balkans (like the Vlach language) but are of obscure origin and development; Albanian or its earlier kin could easily be the source for at least some of these.
Verbs have roughly the number and variety of forms found in French or Italian and are quite irregular in forming their stems. Noun plurals are also notable for the irregularity of a large number of them. When a definite noun or one taken as already known is the direct object of the sentence, a pronoun in the objective case that repeats this information must also be inserted in the verb phrase; e.g., i-a dhash‘ librin atij is literally "him-it I-gave the-book to-him," which in Neapolitan (southern italian) would be the very similar pronunciation "I aggia da' libri a tti'  ".    In general, the grammar and formal distinctions of Albanian are reminiscent of Romance languages, especially of Romanian. The albanian sounds suggest Southern Italian, but Gheg with its nasal vowels strikes the ear as distinctive.

The official Albanian language, written in a standard roman-style orthography adopted in 1909, was based on the south Gheg dialect of Elbasan from the beginning of the Albanian state until World War II, and since has been modeled on Tosk. Albanian speakers in Kosovo and in Macedonia speak eastern varieties of Gheg but since 1974 have widely adopted a common orthography with Albania. Before 1909, the little literature that was preserved, was written in local makeshift Italianate or Hellenizing orthographies, or even in Turko-Arabic characters. A few brief written records are preserved from the 15th century, the first being a baptismal formula from 1462. The scattering of books produced in the 16th and 17th centuries originated largely in the Gheg area (often in Scutarene north Gheg) and reflect Roman Catholic missionary activities. Much of the small stream of literature in the 19th century was produced by exiles. Perhaps the earliest purely literary work of any extent is the 18th-century poetry of Jul Variboba, of the enclave at S.Giorgio, in Calabria. Some literary production continued through the 19th century in the Italian enclaves, but no similar activity is recorded in the Greek areas. All these early historical documents show a language that differs little from the current language. Because these documents from different regions and times exhibit marked dialect peculiarities, however, they often have a value for linguistic study that greatly outweighs their literary merit.

The two principal dialects, Gheg in the north and Tosk in the south, are separated roughly by the Shkumbin River. Gheg and Tosk have been diverging for at least a millennium, and their less extreme forms are mutually intelligible.  Their pronunciation differences are not extreme, but their vocabulary is various: mostly from latin for the Gheg, while for the Tosk there are some modern greek and turkish loanwords. Gheg has the more marked subvarieties, the most striking of which are the northernmost and eastern types, which include those of the city of Shkod‘r (Scutari), the neighbouring mountains along the Montenegro border, Kosovo and Macedonia.
Actually the strong influence of the English in the contemporary albanian society has started to give many loanwords to the Albanian language. Because half the english words are borrowed from the Latin, there is an increase of the words of latin roots in the albanian language. For example: "management" is an english word borrowed from the renaissance italian word "maneggiare" (handlement, because mano=handle). So the Latin is strongly influencing the Albanian language for the third time (after the times of the Roman empire and the times of the Venetian republic). Smile  Bruno


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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 05:37

I am not saying that there is no latin influence in albanian, sometimes this language is clasified as partially latinised. But some words, like padulem-pyll, probably are just sharing the same IE root, like Coch (Welsh red) with Kuq (Alb red). And remember, the latin itself was affected hardly by the other italic languages, like the ethruscan, the oscan, the venete, the messapian, the Japyggian etc. If we accept that some of this shared at least some similarities with illyrian...you get itWink

Regerding Eqerem Cabej, firstly you should know that in albania it never existed a cultural gap between south and north, and he studied gheg dialects for most of his life, as it is known that the gheg has a more archaic form, and the tosk was developed later. But the gheg and the tosk separated later, for example in the southern italian community of the Arbereshe, which are supposed to be tosk emigrants, we find also many charachteristics of the gheg language. This phenomena happens also in the arvanite comunity of greece, which logically should be the extreme of the tosk dialects.
 
I'a dhashe librin atij - Tosk
I'a dhash' librin atij - Gheg
 
As you see there are not much differences, are thereWink
 
Almost six centuries ago the archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli (Paulus Angelus, Pavlo Angelos) wrote the first words in albanian gheg, it was a baptism formula
 
un te paghesonh pr' emenit atit birit et spirtit senit
 
In standard albanian that would be
 
une te pagezoj per emer te atit, birit e te shpirtit te shenjte
 
In tosk that would be
 
Un te pagezonj per emer te atit, birit e te shpirtit te shenjte
 
In gheg
 
Un t'pagzoj per emen te atit, birit e te shpirtit t'shejt
Believe me, I can speak and understand fluently many of the tosk and gheg variances, there are not much differences between tosk and gheg, if you want you can give me a longer text to translate in both languages. And just for your info, it is true that the standard language probably took more from the tosk, but it took also parts of the gheg dialect, and anyway, it is a standard language, it is used only in the medias and in the offices. The tosk is easier to pronunciate (phonetically) while the gheg has at least 140 sounds (phonemes) that you should be able to pronounce if you want to speak it. It is as easy as that, there is no complote insideLOL


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 10:53
After WWII (in the fifties) there were proposals in the international scholar community to classify OFFICIALLY the Albanian language as "partially neo-latin".  Guess who strongly opposed this?Wink
Yes, your guess is right.......Hoxha found in his "argirocaster friend" Cabej the right person to sabotage the proposal. 
Anyway, the forum is about  "how would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?".  My answer is clear: as said before the sound reminds me the SOUTHERN ITALIAN ACCENT
I believe you are albanian speaking, but if you talk to an italian from Bari or Naples in his dialect (not in the italian language) you'll remain astonished by the similarities of the accent.  In many cases the sound is the same.  For example: the pronunciation of some numbers.
1 = one(english) = uno (italian) = 'no (southern italian dialect)
2=  two (")          = due (")         = duie  (")
3 = three (")        = tre  (")         = trie    (") 
and so on to 7,8,9 said "schiette, eitte, ninnnete" in Neapolitan/barese.
Looks familiar to you albanian?
Bruno


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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:01
Bruno, of course it looks familiar to me. But do not forget that there is also an albanian presence in the southern italy. I believe the parts should have interacted linguistically...and regarding the Hoxha, he is dead now, why the internationall scientific comunity is not classifying albanian as partially neo-latin??Have you ever read any work of Cabej, or are you just using some propaganda stereotypes(everything which happened during communism was mean and evil?).
 
Ok, I know very well albanian, as well as italian (at least 3 dialects) and french. I have some knowledge of spanish and romanian. I suppose so do you. I ll post here a short text in albanian, waiting for your comparative rationale analysis.
 
Shqipja eshte nje gjuhe e vecante, e cila megjithese ka huazuar shume fjale nga gjuhet e tjera te popujve fqinje, mbetet krejtesisht e ndryshme, pasi trungu dhe perberja kryesore eshte vendase. Padyshim qe paraardhes te shqiptareve te sotem jane arberit ose arbereshet, nderkohe qe po te shkojme dhe me ne lashtesi, keta quheshin ilire. Kultura tradicionale, zakonet, kenget e vallet si dhe veshjet e trasheguara nga te paret tane jane teper te lashta, dhe pasqyrojne nje kulture mijera-vjecare, ashtu sic verteton dhe arkeologjia me zbulimet e saj te pafundme ne trevat ku historikisht ka jetuar ky komb i vogel, por i forte ne ruajtjen e vlerave te tij.
 
I believe you can easily understand which of the words have a latin origin, and you can compare also the sintaxe and the morphologie of the entire phrase to the relative in neo-latin languages...


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Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:39

from evropian linguists proved that Albanian language is olddest than Latin language (because Albanian language was formed as a language at an earlier)...and of course Albanian language have Latin words but Latin language have little Albanian (or Illyrian) Words too...



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Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise


Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 18:04
Mainly because of the Cabej's linguistic works the Albanian language was (and is) not officially called a partial neo-latin language.
Cabej distinguished himself in the study of the autochtony of the Albanian people and the origins of the albanian language in masterworks like "Etymological studies in the Albanian field", "Introduction to the history of the albanian language", "The spelling rules of the albanian language", etc..  He worked even with A. Xhuvani (University of Athens) in the creation of the "Prefixes and Suffixes of the Albanian language" in 1962, a fundamental book in the field of word-formation in the Albanian language.
"The spelling dictionary" of prof. Cabej heavily influenced the famous Congress on Orthography of the Albanian language held in Tirana in 1972 (the so called congress of the unification of the national albanian language). In this congress was created the "Unified national literary (STANDARD) language" of the Albanian people in the world. The result of the influence of Cabej: the Standard language was mostly based on the literary variant of the south (Tosk), mainly for the phonetic system, even if there are some secundary elements from the Ghego of the north. 
Under the Hoxha regime it was impossible to "survive" without looking eastward in everything: the main critic to prof. Cabej in the international scholar community is his lack of impartiality toward the western languages.
And I am not talking of ridiculous propaganda stereotypes!!
 
Finally, allow me to write a LAST opinion:
All the languages evolve..in the last two centuries the albanian language has benefited from the end of the Turkish empire (without this end, may be the albanian language was going to finish like the greek language in contemporary anatolia), so let's get ready for the entrance of the albanian language in the European Union and LET'S EVOLVE LINGUISTICALLY TOGHETER.Thumbs Up Bruno


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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 18:47
Mainly because of the Cabej's linguistic works the Albanian language was (and is) not officially called a partial neo-latin language.
 
This is somehow true, but the main cause is the albanian language itselfWink
 
Cabej distinguished himself in the study of the autochtony of the Albanian people and the origins of the albanian language in masterworks like "Etymological studies in the Albanian field", "Introduction to the history of the albanian language", "The spelling rules of the albanian language", etc.. 
 
The books you mention are very good works, and the author, as you say, was a distinuished studious. He studied in western europe (Wienna etc). And he started his scientific work before of the communist regime. His opera is now open to the critics, but apparently it still stands...
 
He worked even with A. Xhuvani (University of Athens) in the creation of the "Prefixes and Suffixes of the Albanian language" in 1962, a fundamental book in the field of word-formation in the Albanian language.
 
Prof. Eqerem Cabej, and Prof. Aleksander Xhuvani were two of the most known albanologues of the albanian academy of sciences. They didnt have the chance to work for the athens university...
 
  "The spelling dictionary" of prof. Cabej heavily influenced the famous Congress on Orthography of the Albanian language held in Tirana in 1972 (the so called congress of the unification of the national albanian language). In this congress was created the "Unified national literary (STANDARD) language" of the Albanian people in the world. The result of the influence of Cabej: the Standard language was mostly based on the literary variant of the south (Tosk), mainly for the phonetic system, even if there are some secundary elements from the Ghego of the north. 
 
As i already told you, the standard language was created on other criteria. Just for your info, it was not used the Gjirokastra Tosk, of Enver Hoxha. The leader himself couldnt speak in the standard language, and couldnt pronounce the Y, one of the letters of the alphabet, because in his dialect it didnt exist. The basis of he standard language was the northern tosk dialect of Berat, and the southern gheg if Elbasan. This was because the language had to be easy phonetically and grammatically. The tosk has 7 or 8 different regional dialects, and the gheg has more than 20 regional dialects. But they choosed what they found easier to pronunce. In my opinion the albanian standard language should be enriched with words from all the dialects, especially the gheg, cause it has some words of a very ancient origin, which it would be good to preserve.
 
Under the Hoxha regime it was impossible to "survive" without looking eastward in everything: the main critic to prof. Cabej in the international scholar community is his lack of impartiality toward the western languages.
And I am not talking of ridiculous propaganda stereotypes!!
 
Ok, but please explain me what does tosk have to do with the east and gheg with the west???? The albanians of Kosova never were under the Hoxha regime, and even though they are 100% gheg, and have several dialects, they opted to use the standard language, which they still use. Nobody forced them actually for the ex-yougoslavia it would be better if they had a different official language, but they used the standard. You can ask GoldenBlood, he is from Kosova, he is a Gheg for sure, and he speeks the dialect of the Gjilani region. But I certainly understand him in any word, and so does he. The words are the same, only the pronounce, the accent changes from region to region.
Believe me Bruno, there are not much differences between the dialects. It would be just like pugliese and calabrese, or like calabrese to siciliano.
 
Finally, allow me to write a LAST opinion:
All the languages evolve..in the last two centuries the albanian language has benefited from the end of the Turkish empire (without this end, may be the albanian language was going to finish like the greek language in contemporary anatolia), so let's get ready for the entrance of the albanian language in the European Union and LET'S EVOLVE LINGUISTICALLY TOGHETER.Thumbs Up Bruno
 
I do not believe that the albanian language could die because of the ottoman empire, the turks never settled here significantly. We were allowed to have our albanian pashas and governors, and even the soldiers were mostly albanians...
 
And Bruno, I dont' know why, but I think you have taken this debate personally...I have got nothing against you, in contrary, I am happy to find that somebody is interested in my language. I am proud to discuss it with you hereSmile
 


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Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 22:12
Thank you, Arber, for your friendly invitation, but I have to travel for work and I cannot keep participating in this interesting Forum. 
Indeed, prof. Xhuvani graduated at the University of Athens and always maintained work relationship with his Alma Mater. 
The Turks (a very prolific people)were starting to settle in force in the Balkan peninsula in the nineteenth century: in other words they were starting to do what they did in the anatolian peninsula from the Middle Ages.... and by 1900 forty percent of the Balkan people were assimilated in the moslem religion! For example, just a few thousand Turks settled in what is now Macedonia before the Napoleonic wars, but in 1890 they already were 1/4 of the macedonian population!      Turks "assimilate" soon or later everybody: ask the moslem Kurds.......Wink
Ah, I forgot:   Italy and France were the western powers that promoted the creation of Albania from the Turkish empire.  As we can see from this old map of 1913 Greece wanted nearly all of central and south Albania, because the Greeks believed that in those areas there was a majority of Greek-speaking people!  Italians entered the WWI even because they were promised (under their leadership) a small Albanian state around Tirana, according to the secret Pact of London. Italy in those year has had a prime minister with albanian roots (from the albanian communities in southern Italy) who always promoted the close relationship between Italian and Albanian people.  Unfortunately in the next years appeared the Fascism with the italian nationalism and Albania was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy between 1939 and 1943.     This provoked the reaction against Italy (and the western world) of the communist Hoxha: when he took control of Albania he started to "erase" everything favorable to Italy that has been created before. Even the creation of an albanian language (based on the Gheg) with neo-latin characteristics, that has been supervised by the "Accademia Italiana della Lingua" during the fascist years. That is why the Hoxha regime created a standard albanian language based on the Tosk, full of Greek influences.  If Italy had won the war, Mussolini had promised to the Albanian fascist leaders the annexation to Albania of all Greek Epirus in his prospected conference of peace after WWII.
Anyway, Albania is not like Bulgaria or Serbia....it is only a few nautical miles from the Italian peninsula and has always been influenced by this proximity, EVEN LINGUISTICALLY. Only during the centuries of the Ottoman rule there was a break in this close relationship. As said before, there was a first influence/relationship during the Roman empire (the Japigi of Apulia were south illyrian) broken by the barbarian invasions of the middle ages, then the second one during the Renaissance Venetian republic, broken by the Turkish invasion, and now the third and actual influence/relationship with the creation of the Albanian state, future member of the Treaty of Rome (European Union). 
Greetings/Saluti/Saludos   Smile   Bruno
(sorry: I speak well only english, italian and spanish)


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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 07:55
Indeed, prof. Xhuvani graduated at the University of Athens and always maintained work relationship with his Alma Mater. 
 
Believe me Bruno, it was impossible to mantain a relationship with Athens during the times of communism. Between the two states there was a state of war.
 
The Turks (a very prolific people)were starting to settle in force in the Balkan peninsula in the nineteenth century: in other words they were starting to do what they did in the anatolian peninsula from the Middle Ages.... and by 1900 forty percent of the Balkan people were assimilated in the moslem religion!
 
80 % of the albanian population in the balkans converted into muslim, but this was not an asimilation. They preserved their culture, and even now they continue celebrating even christian holidays. They converted mostly for practical purposes, being a muslim provided them many rights. In the empire only the muslims were allowed to ride a horse and to keep the fire weapons. For the albanians both of these rights were indispensable, living in a hostile mountainous territory, and feeding their children mainly with the money that they won in the different wars.
 
Ah, I forgot:   Italy and France were the western powers that promoted the creation of Albania from the Turkish empire.  As we can see from this old map of 1913 Greece wanted nearly all of central and south Albania, because the Greeks believed that in those areas there was a majority of Greek-speaking people! 
 
Well, Italy wanted Vlora (Valona and the hinterland) as well as Durres (Durazzo) and Shkodra (Scutari). The greeks didnt believe that in those areas the people spoke greek language, Venizelos in the Versailles conference, when he was advocating for a greek northern epirus, he was asked about the albanian speaking majority and he answered that this was not a problem. The albanians were orthodoxe, mostly, and this made them greek, according to Venizelos, which added that in his country (Greece) albanian was already a very spread language, and the chief official of the greek military navy was albanian speaking. So he could manage the albanian speakers, but only the orthodoxes. You can find Venizelos speach in actae diplomatica. Fortunately enough, the albanian representatives (among them two distinguished albanian orthodoxes) showed that being an orthodoxe doesnt mean that you are a greek, and for an albanian nationality is first to the religion. The same hapened with Italy, which occupated Vlora and Sazan island (Valona e Sasseno), but the people rejected them and immediately rebelled.
 
Italians entered the WWI even because they were promised (under their leadership) a small Albanian state around Tirana, according to the secret Pact of London. Italy in those year has had a prime minister with albanian roots (from the albanian communities in southern Italy) who always promoted the close relationship between Italian and Albanian people.  Unfortunately in the next years appeared the Fascism with the italian nationalism and Albania was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy between 1939 and 1943.    
 
It is true, the prime minister Francesco Crispi was an "albanese d'Italia" fom Piana degli albanesi, in Sicilia. He was if I am not wrong, one of the ideators of the Italian-Albanian union.
 
This provoked the reaction against Italy (and the western world) of the communist Hoxha: when he took control of Albania he started to "erase" everything favorable to Italy that has been created before. Even the creation of an albanian language (based on the Gheg) with neo-latin characteristics, that has been supervised by the "Accademia Italiana della Lingua" during the fascist years. That is why the Hoxha regime created a standard albanian language based on the Tosk, full of Greek influences.  If Italy had won the war, Mussolini had promised to the Albanian fascist leaders the annexation to Albania of all Greek Epirus in his prospected conference of peace after WWII.
 
It was not only this the cause of the Hoxha's paranoia. If you study the history of the communist albania, you will find that Hoxha interrupted every relation with the communist Yougoslavia, and ten years later also with Russia. By the middle seventies he interrupted also the relation with china, and albania was totally isolated. Yougoslavia, russia and china were (and are) not western, but he still "eraded" everything favourable created before. He was afraid, a paranoiac. Albania never had true allies in the foreign policy, every state that approached the little country, tried to control it territorialy. The Italians wanted the coast, the greeks wanted the south, the Yugoslavians took Kosova and wanted more, The russians wanted the military base in the Otranto channel, which strategically could control all the mediterranean. The chinese wanted to use albania as their base in Europe...so I guess thats why also the people were convinced by the Hoxha policies, and didnt contrast him massively. Anyway, for our linguistical concern the gheg is far from disspearing. Some of the most distinguished albanian writers use that dialect for their opera, and most of the intellectuals master both dialects...
 
Anyway, Albania is not like Bulgaria or Serbia....it is only a few nautical miles from the Italian peninsula and has always been influenced by this proximity, EVEN LINGUISTICALLY. Only during the centuries of the Ottoman rule there was a break in this close relationship. As said before, there was a first influence/relationship during the Roman empire (the Japigi of Apulia were south illyrian) broken by the barbarian invasions of the middle ages, then the second one during the Renaissance Venetian republic, broken by the Turkish invasion, and now the third and actual influence/relationship with the creation of the Albanian state, future member of the Treaty of Rome (European Union). 
 
Of course albania has always been influenced from itally, and with no interruption, even during the turkish occupation. Albanian was, and is constantly inlfluenced also by the greek (as every other european language, and of course a bit more, due to neighboring). This is not bad, it is just interacting. But still, the albanian language preserves its main body, which is original in the lexicon, syntaxis and other linguistical aspects.
 
Anch'io la saluto, caro Bruno
Dhe une ju pershendes, i dashur Bruno
 


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: maria d.
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 23:39
Hi, I am from Bari and I agree with Bruno.  I have some albanese friends from Durazzo who are able to understand partially my barese dialect (and so I do when they talk slowly in their ghego dialect). I agree that the ghego is a partial neolatin language. It is true that he sound of the albanian language is similar to the one we have here in Bari. This is one of the reasons we Baresi (and the southern italians) like very much the Albanian people and, so, helped to create their State before WWI, as can be seen in the following map.               Maria D.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:46
Originally posted by maria d. maria d. wrote:

Hi, I am from Bari and I agree with Bruno.  I have some albanese friends from Durazzo who are able to understand partially my barese dialect (and so I do when they talk slowly in their ghego dialect). I agree that the ghego is a partial neolatin language. It is true that he sound of the albanian language is similar to the one we have here in Bari. This is one of the reasons we Baresi (and the southern italians) like very much the Albanian people and, so, helped to create their State before WWI, as can be seen in the following map.               Maria D.
 
Cara Maria (Italian)
E dashur Maria (alb.Tosk)
E dashtun Maria (alb.Gheg)
 
You should firstly know that your friends from Durazzo do not speak Gheg, cause in their city they actually use a mixture between gheg and tosk (same as in Tirana, where I live).And second, while it is true that many words have a latin origin, you would be never able to understand those, as they are very different from barese, or pugliese. I know both languages, and I am able to make a comparison. And in addendum, there are many more words which are of no latin origin, so I hardly believe yu can get the sense of the sentence. But, it is absolutely true, the albanian, tosk and gheg, share many syntaxicall similarities with the southern italian dialects. But not lexically, synthaxically, if you understand. The phrases are built in the same order, the syntaxe elements are similar.
 
Comunque, fa piacere discutere con gente come te (Italian)
Sidoqofte asht knaqsi me bisedu me nierez si ty (gheg)
Sidoqofte eshte kenaqesi te bisedosh me njerez si ty (tosk)


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: maria d.
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:48
Yesterday I was talking with my albanian friends from Durazzo and they told me that their family is from the Scutari lake. They told me that for centuries, before the Turkish invasion of the Balkans, that area has been under the Venice republic and that this occupation has influenced their Ghego dialect.     I agree with them about the presence in my Barese dialect of some "roots" from the Japigi tribe, an illyrian population that lived in Apulia when the Romans conquered the region more than two thousand years ago: this facilitates my understanding of their dialect.      So, it is clear to me that there is a common linguistic "background" between the two sides of the gulf of Otranto.   And this is clearly present in the SOUND of the present day albanian language, mainly in the Ghego areas of Albany.  Indeed, I believe to be able to understand -if spoken very slowly- nearly 2/3 of the conversation in ghego of my Durazzo friends!    Maria D.


Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:03
Originally posted by maria d. maria d. wrote:

Yesterday I was talking with my albanian friends from Durazzo and they told me that their family is from the Scutari lake. They told me that for centuries, before the Turkish invasion of the Balkans, that area has been under the Venice republic and that this occupation has influenced their Ghego dialect.     I agree with them about the presence in my Barese dialect of some "roots" from the Japigi tribe, an illyrian population that lived in Apulia when the Romans conquered the region more than two thousand years ago: this facilitates my understanding of their dialect.      So, it is clear to me that there is a common linguistic "background" between the two sides of the gulf of Otranto.   And this is clearly present in the SOUND of the present day albanian language, mainly in the Ghego areas of Albany.  Indeed, I believe to be able to understand -if spoken very slowly- nearly 2/3 of the conversation in ghego of my Durazzo friends!    Maria D.
 
Dear Maria, if you would be able to understand 2/3 of the gheg dialect, then you would be able to understand 11/18 of the tosk (almost 2/3). And please, be careful when you agree with them on the illyrian origins, it is just a dangerous claim and you might get many greek forumers offending your opinion. The albanians appeared in the world only in the beginning of the XXI century. (Of course I am kidding)
 
Posting to you before I noticed how albanian tosk Njeri albanian gheg Nieri meaning both Human are very similar to the ancient greek  Aner meaning Man.


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: maria d.
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 22:04
I agree with you about the "violent outbursts" of some forumers. I have read some forums with every kind of crazy commentaries, but this is typical of people living in the Balkans, where ethnicity and language are at the center of historical wars and massacres that escape the imagination of a westerner like me.
 
Anyway, if someone doubts about your Albanian past, I have borrowed from the Map forum the map of Albania around 1450 and I have posted it for you in this reply.
I have even copied the following Wikipedia section of the Albanian language about the latin roots in your beautiful language:
...."The name Tosk, Alb toskė, was borrowed from Venetian tosko "rough, crude", literally "Tuscan".
The trouble of a homeland for the Albanians becomes all the more problematic. Despite Albanian nationalist claims to the contrary, the Albanians almost certainly came from farther north and inland than would suggest the present borders of Albania. First, Albanian has few early Greek borrowings, and the very word for Greek, gėrk, was borrowed from South Slavic; cf. Bulg. grŭk, Serb-Croat gr"k. Similarly, the Illyrian coast is not a likely source since Albanian has no inherited nautical or indigenous sea-faring terminology, and has instead supplemented this absence with subsequent borrowing from Latin or Greek or recent metaphorical lexical creations. Also, Albanian is believed to be the source for a number of grammatical and lexical similarities shared by otherwise dissimilar languages including Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, and to some extent Greek. Also, there is a lack of Proto-Albanian place names in Illyria. Likewise, the word shqa, from Lat Sclavus "Slav" refers only to Bulgarians.
Instead, given the overwhelming amount of shepherding and mountaineering vocabulary as well as the extensive influence of Latin, it is more likely the Albanians come from north of the Jireček line, on the Latin-speaking side, perhaps from the late Roman province of Dardania from the western Balkans. The Northern Albanian Alps are referred to as Bjeshkėt e Namena, and this region's name is believed by some to come from Proto-Albanian beškai tāi, giving Alb bjeshkė "mountain", borrowed ultimately from Vulgar Latin pastica "pasture".
Yet, one area in the late Roman province of Praevitana (modern northern Albania) seems to show an area where a primarily shepherding, transhumance population of Illyrians retained their culture. This area was based in the Mat district and the region of high mountains in Northern Albania, as well as in Dukagjin, Mirditė, and the mountains of Drin, from where the population would descend in the summer to the lowlands of western Albania, the Black Drin (Drin i zi) river valley, and into parts of Old Serbia. Indeed, the region's complete lack of Latin place names seems to imply little latinization of any kind and a more likely spot for the origin of Albanian.
The period in which Proto-Albanian and Latin interacted was protracted and drawn out over six centuries, 1st c. AD to 6th or 7th c. AD. This is born out into roughly three layers of borrowings, the largest number belonging to the second or middle layer. The first, with the fewest borrowings, was a time of less important interaction. The final period, probably preceding the Slavic or Germanic invasions, also has a notably smaller amount of borrowings. Each layer is characterized by a different treatment of most vowels, the first layer having several that follow the evolution of Early Proto-Albanian into Albanian; later layers reflect vowel changes indemic to Late Latin and presumably Proto-Romance. Other formative changes include the syncretism of several noun case endings, especially in the plural, as well as the largescale palatalization.........."
 
Finally, allow me to write that my Durazzo friends told me that the Gheg you write is the literary. But the albanian regional dialects are different and often not intelligible between themselves. They speak the Shkodra dialect, influenced by the Venetian domination and by the liturgical use of the Catholic religion.  They say that they cannot understand well some Tosk dialects from the Butrintum area next to Greece. But on the contrary they are able to understand half of the Bari dialect, because of its Japigi/Messapian roots.  For example, "mule" is said in barese "musso" and in ghego "mushk", "car" is said "vetura" like in ghego/albanian, and "king" is said in my dialect " mre" similarly to the ghego "mret".
Furthermore, the forum is about the "sound" of the albanian language, not the grammar and/or syntaxis. And I am talking of similarities in sound and vocabulary ONLY.   Bruno (referring to prof. Trifone) said that the Ghego vocabulary is 55% loanworded from the Latin, and I agree with him. But some regional dialect (like the one of my friends) have more percentage of latin roots. That is why I am able to understand aproximately 2/3 of them, but I am NOT able to understand the Tosk dialects (not the literary language) from other friends I have, who are from the Argirocaster area.
Cordialita'      Maria D.
 


Posted By: maria d.
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 22:10
Here it is the map of Skanderberg timesMaria D.


Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 12:33
Which is the percentage of foreign words in albanian vocabulary (latin, slavic,greek,turkish etc)?


Posted By: centurion
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 10:29
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

Which is the percentage of foreign words in albanian vocabulary (latin, slavic,greek,turkish etc)?
 
According to prof. Trifone (an italian scholar) :
55%   Latin
11%     Greek
8%     Slavic (serb, macedonian, montenegrin, bulgarian, etc.)
1%     Turkish
The remainig 25% is original Illyrian (with Dacian roots, etc..)
 
In the Gheg areas (mainly around the coastal zone of Skutar) the percentage of Latin is higher (around 70%)  and practically there is no presence of Greek vocabulary.
   


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CIVIS ROMANUS SUM


Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 17:58
what funny :S

8% Slavic? wow this is hilarous...we have not slavic words (maybe 30-40 words)
Same with greek language 11%...hilarous
55% latin this is joke :D


Albanian language study thausands scholar evropian, american ect. they said Albanian language has only 12-13% (Latin,Turkish,Greek influence) and others 87-88% are albanian words...

if Albanian language had more 50% (non-albanian influences) evropian scholar didn't classify 1 on 8 Branch secluded of Indo-European...

Even some great evropian scholar Albanian classfied the olddest language of Europe and World


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Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise


Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 18:19
I do not believe the percentage of latin is that high. I would say it would probably be around 40%(this is from personal experience with the language). The most significant aspect of the language, but it cannot be the vast majority of the language
8% slavic does sound reasonable indeed.(the further north in Albania you get I would assume the more slavic influence)
I do not know what to make of the 14% Greek influence. Maybe depending on the area. If measured by Tosk dialect of Tirana, I would say about right. But this is keeping in mind that Tirana dialect is vast majority Tosk.
Turkish has attributed some minor prefixes and suffixes, many of them today have fallen into local "slur" adjectives("Luk" is the best example).


Posted By: centurion
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:06
Originally posted by GoldenBlood GoldenBlood wrote:



if Albanian language had more 50% (non-albanian influences) evropian scholar didn't classify 1 on 8 Branch secluded of Indo-European...

 
 
The English language has more loanwords from Latin -directly or indirectly(through the French, Italian, Spanish, etc..) than Albanian.  This fact, that 58% of the English words are borrowed from Latin, does not "seclude" the classification of the English as a German language.    The same happens with the Albanian language, with the 55% of the albanian words borrowed from Latin -directly or indirectly (through the Italian, French, Venetian, Neapolitan, Vlach, etc..), as Prof. Trifone wrote in 1998, after a two years field-research in Albania. 
 
Of course there are as many linguistic opinions as there are scholars, so some scholars can argue that there are only 40% of loanworded words from Latin in the Albanese language - as states the forumer Theodore Felix.
I believe that the 15% of difference is due to the fact that prof. Trifone (who is the Director of the School of Linguistics at the University of Siena, near Florence) includes even the words that are phonetically loanworded from a previous language borrowing.
Let me explain in plain English: 
1) There are many albanian words loanworded from English, like the words "manager" or "management". 
But these famous english words are loanworded originally from the italian merchants of the Renaissance. Actually, "management" comes from the italian "maneggiamento" that in renaissance lombard dialect is phonetically said "manegmen", because the italian "mano" means in english "hand" and so management =handlement.
2) Furthermore, there are many loanworded words that are syncopated and are difficult to realize from where they are borrowed.  For example, CAPITAL = CAPut ITALiae or head of Italy in syncopated Latin.
But during the Renaissance the word "capital" was extended to the financial area, so when K. Marx wrote his famous "Kapital" in German, he was using a word loaworded from Latin. That word was tranferred to Albanian to define the "Kapitalism", so hated by the Albanese dictator Hoxha.
 
 


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CIVIS ROMANUS SUM


Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:54
Hehehe oks this is how it goes. I lived in Macedonia right untill last year, i lived in a part of Macedonia where no albanians live, so my contacts with albanians wore rare. But still not that often i would hear an albanian speak and when he did the language does not sound turkis.
I dont know how you got to that conclusion but Albanian in no chance sounds turkis(by the way i also happen to have turkish friends)
 
If u say that Albanian sounds turkis because it has a few turkis words than heheh ur kidding ur selfs.
As a Macedonian my ancestors accepted the slavic language when they came about and mixed.
But when the turks came that same language adopted alot of turkis words.
 
SO ima a Macedonian, speeking Macedonian but my native dialect still contains turkis words only adopted for the easines of our thoung. So we have Macedonain words... but we also tend to use every now and then a turkis word. Im talking about the Macedonian dialect spoken in South-Eastern Macedonia.
 
cya later


Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 13:18
Quote I believe that the 15% of difference is due to the fact that prof. Trifone (who is the Director of the School of Linguistics at the University of Siena, near Florence) includes even the words that are phonetically loanworded from a previous language borrowing.
Let me explain in plain English:


I was thinking the samething. But more along the line of the recent decades "Italianization" of the Albanian dialect from Tirana, not alone but also English.

My only problem is that this should be distinguished from the latin borrowings from the ages. These inheritances are morphed to begin with(being changed to English) then transfer to Albanian... They are not direct Latin borrowings.
    
My main concern was actually on the discussion going on before, Albanian historical connection to latin.


Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 13:36
Originally posted by theMacedonian theMacedonian wrote:

As a Macedonian my ancestors accepted the slavic language when they came about and mixed.
 
What language spoken and who are your ancestors ?


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Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 01:09
Whell thought one man... Noone in the Balkans knows thwir ansestry... thats a fact.
 
But you say you are a greek and I say i'm a Macedonian. Its that simple.
 
When the slavs came down to settle in Macedonia, they mixed with the peoples that wore alredy here( ancient Macedonians). And when i say mixed i mean 50%-50% or 40%-60% not 95%-5% (get it so far?)
 
The trouth behind this is just look at me, I dont deni that i have slavic genes but i will never step down from my Macedonian ancestry. I have bowth slavic and Macedonian geans and you can see it on me.
 
The thing is that u deni anithing. there was a gene test a cuple years back but i never saw results.
 
One example
We speak a slavic dialect
but we have christianity from the Ancient Macedonians.
 
We still have side by side Ancient Macedonian Names used for todays names of people (usualy of rivers and regions) and we have slavic names.
 
I jus dont get it...
Does this mean that im half Macedonian half slavic
or am i Half Greek half slavic?
I know my theory but what do you think?


Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 01:18
And yes shore ... slvic does not comply with Macedonian... bla bla
 
But
 
wridlle me this:
 
Why in the Macedonian language that i speak, we have so many songs about Macedonians, Macedonia and so forth.
These songs a written way before "propaganda" came out and have been sung among Macedonians for as long as we can remember. Infact i can bet u (procetige wize) Macedonians have written more songs about Macedonia then any other nation, has written sonsg about themselfs.
 
So tell me how many Greek songs of today and previus centuries, sing about the grateness of Macedonia and its Peoples?
 
Make a note that villigers(where most of the songs originated) wore never under political presure and they always sang what they felt. They felt Macedonians for a reason, because of a connection, and there is no denying that.
 
I think we shoul even open a forum aboout this.


Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 08:15
theMacedonian can you give straight answers in your  below claim please
 
Originally posted by theMacedonian theMacedonian wrote:

As a Macedonian my ancestors accepted the slavic language when they came about and mixed.
 
What language spoken and who are your ancestors ?


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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 08:57
So your bulgarian brothers speak too the "macedonian" language?
Why don't you claim that you are slav-paionian?? The majority of your land was Paionian. Don't you like the name??Tongue
I have too some unanswered questions.
Alexander named his horse Bucephalas,if he didn't sppek greek why he named his horse with a greek name?? Where did he learn greek,ion TV?
What do the names Alexandros,Philip, Kleopatra, Perdikas, Balakros, Antigonos, mean in your language???????
Thanks LOL


Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 10:26

hahah bulgarians by the way are not my brothers and never will be. I deny any similarities with them... even the so called "slavic line" and dont offend me like that.. because as i see it the greeks of modern greece are not exactly the ancient ones (whell atleast most of them that is).

 



Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 10:31

My feelings about my ancestors arre clear even in my nickname... but since u insist

My beginings wore ancient Macedonians,
My middle age granfathers wore macedonians,
My dad is macedonian
and so am I... I am a Macedonian and i freely declare that.

If you belive this ist so... then tell me
what makes a Macedonian?
and tell me What claims do you have about you being "macedonian" and using the macedonian symbols(if u used them for other reasons, such as meaning of power and unity then u dont have to answer the last question).



Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 10:54
because as i see it the greeks of modern greece are not exactly the ancient ones (whell atleast most of them that is).
Where did you see that???
 
 
what makes a Macedonian?
 
Of course not only the place you live,Americans aren't Apache just because they live in America...
The traditions,the continuous history etc and of course the language. A language which is descedant of the language Alexander himself spread to all over the world.
Don't be afraid we don't have any territorial claims.Its our right to defend our history and symbols.
 
Answer to my previous questions and don't avoid them...
 


Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 11:53

Ok so you say cal my self a panonian-slav not a macedonian?

mmm good point by why dont you look at maps prior 1912 u know nder the turkis rule... if u dont have one ill provide u with one.

Ok we all know alexander III had graeat archer... i wonder where they came from... ohhhh yes the previously conqured and assimilated panonians... dont you think this is so?

Hehehe i dont mention the panonians because they wore alredy part of the macedonian culture and life... and + teritorial scares are not my reagon ... just dont mentione it or i will be forced to stray away from the toppic...

Dont make teritorial claims... u have enough as it is...

sorry to all moderators but i was forced in this argument.



Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:34
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

because as i see it the greeks of modern greece are not exactly the ancient ones (whell atleast most of them that is).
Where did you see that???
 
 
what makes a Macedonian?
 
Of course not only the place you live,Americans aren't Apache just because they live in America...
The traditions,the continuous history etc and of course the language. A language which is descedant of the language Alexander himself spread to all over the world.
Don't be afraid we don't have any territorial claims.Its our right to defend our history and symbols.
 
Answer to my previous questions and don't avoid them...
 
 
Apaches ate bizons and worshiped Manitu, whereas modern americans eat hamburgers and worship green banknotes [JOKINGLY (sic!)].
Patrinos, can you point me to any tradition known in Ancient Macedonia that persisted in Modern Greeks but not Modern Slavomacedonians?


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Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:53
Originally posted by theMacedonian theMacedonian wrote:

 
When the slavs came down to settle in Macedonia, they mixed with the peoples that wore alredy here( ancient Macedonians).

 And when i say mixed i mean 50%-50% or 40%-60% not 95%-5% (get it so far?)
 



The people who were there were the ancient Macedonians? In 600-650 AD?
I doubt there was anyone there feeling nationaly Macedonian (and not "Roman"-Byzantine),
having different religion than the rest of the citizens of Byzantine empire (Orthodox instead of Pagan slavs)
and speaking other language than koene Greek.

If u think that Alexander's children were hanging around in that time ,well u must think it again.

Also,if u think that it would be rational for someone who:
-lived in his "homeland",
-inside the borders of his state,
-spokea language written for 1500 years,used by public officers,
-had his own land,
-hada higher level of technical development,
-believed in a monotheistic religion with organized church,

would abandon all this and get mixed with some people who:
-were "new-comers",
-were living inside the borders of a foreign empire
-at first didnt have land,
-were speaking an non-written language,
-had lower level of technical development,
-living in mud-huts(at first),
-believing in some pagan religion

and in a proportion up to 50-50 % (how did u come up with this percentege..not much scientific way i guess),

,rather than being assimilated by the dominant "Romans",
then think iy some more time Smile




Posted By: centurion
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 18:00
What has happened with the original topic? This is a forum about the Albanian language .......or the Macedonian problems?

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CIVIS ROMANUS SUM


Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 18:31
centurion... You don't know the half of it... lol


Posted By: centurion
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 23:38
Originally posted by Theodore Felix Theodore Felix wrote:

centurion... You don't know the half of it... lol
 
OK.
In that case, I am going to play tennis with my friends.......ciao


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CIVIS ROMANUS SUM


Posted By: theMacedonian
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 22:47

hehe if macedonians wore assimilated by the powerfull romans than greeks of today (along with egyptians and so on) in your way of thinking are assimilated too...

:P

this is how i understand yur theory



Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 16:33
Originally posted by theMacedonian theMacedonian wrote:

hehe if macedonians wore assimilated by the powerfull romans than greeks of today (along with egyptians and so on) in your way of thinking are assimilated too...

:P

this is how i understand yur theory



what? Confused
can u understand what u have written ?

its simple both southern greeks and macedonians were "byzantines"/"romans" in 600 AD.

anyway back to the original topic.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 18:32
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:




Also,if u think that it would be rational for someone who:
-lived in his "homeland",
-inside the borders of his state,
-spokea language written for 1500 years,used by public officers,
-had his own land,
-hada higher level of technical development,
-believed in a monotheistic religion with organized church,

would abandon all this and get mixed with some people who:
-were "new-comers",
-were living inside the borders of a foreign empire
-at first didnt have land,
-were speaking an non-written language,
-had lower level of technical development,
-living in mud-huts(at first),
-believing in some pagan religion

and in a proportion up to 50-50 % (how did u come up with this percentege..not much scientific way i guess),

,rather than being assimilated by the dominant "Romans",
then think iy some more time Smile
 
Some molecular biologists did that instead of theMacedonian and their results are:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11260506&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11260506&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
 
Result is clear -- they did got mixed:
 

Quote

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.

  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Arnaiz%2DVillena+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Arnaiz-Villena A ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Dimitroski+K%22%5BAuthor%5D - Dimitroski K ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Pacho+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Pacho A ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Moscoso+J%22%5BAuthor%5D - Moscoso J ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Gomez%2DCasado+E%22%5BAuthor%5D - Gomez-Casado E ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Silvera%2DRedondo+C%22%5BAuthor%5D - Silvera-Redondo C ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Varela+P%22%5BAuthor%5D - Varela P ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Blagoevska+M%22%5BAuthor%5D - Blagoevska M ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Zdravkovska+V%22%5BAuthor%5D - Zdravkovska V ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Martinez%2DLaso+J%22%5BAuthor%5D - Martinez-Laso J .

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

 
If they would not mixe they would be different. Actually to me result says that slavs were much less numerous in this mix, just as winners they made their language as major.  
Don't get confused with "sub-Saharan" genes. Greeks came to early to be considered as people of the same branch. And more detailed study of same authors supports this.
 
Full text article could be obtained from almost any university (or computer with university IP ).
To get this post less offtopic, I must say that it seems that Albanians belong to the same Mediterranean substratum.


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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 19:47
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Some molecular biologists did that instead of theMacedonian and their results are:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11260506&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11260506&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
 
Result is clear -- they did got mixed:
 

Quote

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.

  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Arnaiz%2DVillena+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Arnaiz-Villena A ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Dimitroski+K%22%5BAuthor%5D - Dimitroski K ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Pacho+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Pacho A ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Moscoso+J%22%5BAuthor%5D - Moscoso J ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Gomez%2DCasado+E%22%5BAuthor%5D - Gomez-Casado E ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Silvera%2DRedondo+C%22%5BAuthor%5D - Silvera-Redondo C ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Varela+P%22%5BAuthor%5D - Varela P ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Blagoevska+M%22%5BAuthor%5D - Blagoevska M ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Zdravkovska+V%22%5BAuthor%5D - Zdravkovska V ,
  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Martinez%2DLaso+J%22%5BAuthor%5D - Martinez-Laso J .

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

 
If they would not mixe they would be different. Actually to me result says that slavs were much less numerous in this mix, just as winners they made their language as major.  
Don't get confused with "sub-Saharan" genes. Greeks came to early to be considered as people of the same branch. And more detailed study of same authors supports this.
 
Full text article could be obtained from almost any university (or computer with university IP ).
To get this post less offtopic, I must say that it seems that Albanians belong to the same Mediterranean substratum.
 
 
The "some molecular biologists" appear to be rather "a group of biased and politically motivated biologists", thus non-credible.
 
Its at least suspect reading among them names as K. Dimitroski, M. Blagoevska, V. Zdravkovska,  but reading their whole 'research' it leaves no doubt why Mark Jobling, author of "Human Evolutionary Genetics",  uses this Arnaiz-Villena's research as "an example of misguided interpretation".
 
I liked the remarks of the research about Palestinians (note that you post here only a part refering to Greeks and not the whole research) and especially their allegations about Japanese.
 
To make it short, i provide the answer from one of the top geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza.
 
 
Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit
Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002); doi:10.1038/415115b


Sir – Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaCitation.taf?id=N1&jtl=NATURE&cd_year=2001&vid=414&ppf=382 - Nature 414, 382; 2001 ) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.

The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews".
They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish–Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times."

It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.

Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.

Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

Neil Risch
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

Alberto Piazza
Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA



http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_r.html - http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...415115b_r.html  



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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 20:13
That is another paper and I read it as well. It was just unrelated to the question. It seems that you didn't read them.
About Macedonians it was checked by different markers
1. HLA-DRB1, DRB3/4/5 and DQB1 polymorphism  ( javascript:AL_get%28this, %27jour%27, %27Tissue Antigens.%27%29; - Tissue Antigens. 2000 Jan;55(1):53-6.) by
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Hristova%2DDimceva+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Hristova-Dimceva A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Verduijn+W%22%5BAuthor%5D - Verduijn W , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Schipper+RF%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schipper RF , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Schreuder+GM%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schreuder GM .
2. HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 in Tissue Antigens
Volume 60 Page 496  - December 2002 by M. Ivanova javascript:popRef%28%27a1%27%29 - 1 , E. Rozemuller javascript:popRef%28%27a2%27%29 - 2 , N. Tyufekchiev javascript:popRef%28%27a3%27%29 - 3 , A. Michailova javascript:popRef%28%27a1%27%29 - 1 , M. Tilanus javascript:popRef%28%27a2%27%29 - 2 , E. Naumova javascript:popRef%28%27a1%27%29 - 1
3.  Which is more precise by Alu insertion polymorphism by

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Comas+D%22%5BAuthor%5D - Comas D , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Schmid+H%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schmid H , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Braeuer+S%22%5BAuthor%5D - Braeuer S , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Flaiz+C%22%5BAuthor%5D - Flaiz C , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Busquets+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Busquets A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Calafell+F%22%5BAuthor%5D - Calafell F , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Bertranpetit+J%22%5BAuthor%5D - Bertranpetit J , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Scheil+HG%22%5BAuthor%5D - Scheil HG , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Huckenbeck+W%22%5BAuthor%5D - Huckenbeck W , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Efremovska+L%22%5BAuthor%5D - Efremovska L , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Schmidt+H%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schmidt H .   in : javascript:AL_get%28this, %27jour%27, %27Ann Hum Genet.%27%29; - Ann Hum Genet. 2004 Mar;68(Pt 2):120-7.

As for the list of authors, in our field major contributers are first and last author. Last author determines the research and the first does most part of experiments. I am rather sure in Human Genetics situation is the same.
 
Explanation of molecular biology results by polytical reasons reveals that explaining person is not familiar with the topic. It is rather easy to repeate those experiments. Up to now I didn't find any publication showing different result.
 
And finally, this:
It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.
 
was not the major aim of the paper you speak about. More precisely accents were on relatedness of the populations but not conflict between them.
 
Response of Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. would be also usefull:
 

Sir:

Neil Risch et al. in Correspondence http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B1 - 1 state that our paper http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B2 - 2 on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews lacked scientific merit because its conclusions are based on data reported for a single-locus genetic marker (HLA-DRB1). Although the use of single-locus markers can lead to misleading results, single-locus studies, whether using HLA or other markers, are common in this field and are regularly published in the specialist literature.

In papers reporting data on a single locus, it is important not to take anomalous results at face value but to interpret them in the light of other types of data, such as historical, anthropological and linguistic data, as well as testing them using other genetic markers (see, for example, ref. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B3 - 3 ). As we stated in ref. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B2 - 2 , we are currently investigating the populations reported in our paper using other markers.



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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 05:45
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

That is another paper and I read it as well. It was just unrelated to the question. It seems that you didn't read them.
 
On the contrary, the author in both journals used the same data. Hence the refutation from Luca Cavalli-Sforza and his team about Arnaiz-Villena unscientific methodology applies to both journals.
 
Quote
About Macedonians it was checked by different markers
1. HLA-DRB1, DRB3/4/5 and DQB1 polymorphism  ( javascript:AL_get%28this, %27jour%27, %27Tissue Antigens.%27%29; - Tissue Antigens. 2000 Jan;55(1):53-6.) by
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Hristova%2DDimceva+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Hristova-Dimceva A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Verduijn+W%22%5BAuthor%5D - Verduijn W , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Schipper+RF%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schipper RF , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Citation&term=%22Schreuder+GM%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schreuder GM .
2. HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 in Tissue Antigens
Volume 60 Page 496  - December 2002 by M. Ivanova javascript:popRef%28%27a1%27%29 - 1 , E. Rozemuller javascript:popRef%28%27a2%27%29 - 2 , N. Tyufekchiev javascript:popRef%28%27a3%27%29 - 3 , A. Michailova javascript:popRef%28%27a1%27%29 - 1 , M. Tilanus javascript:popRef%28%27a2%27%29 - 2 , E. Naumova javascript:popRef%28%27a1%27%29 - 1
3.  Which is more precise by Alu insertion polymorphism by

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Comas+D%22%5BAuthor%5D - Comas D , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Schmid+H%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schmid H , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Braeuer+S%22%5BAuthor%5D - Braeuer S , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Flaiz+C%22%5BAuthor%5D - Flaiz C , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Busquets+A%22%5BAuthor%5D - Busquets A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Calafell+F%22%5BAuthor%5D - Calafell F , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Bertranpetit+J%22%5BAuthor%5D - Bertranpetit J , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Scheil+HG%22%5BAuthor%5D - Scheil HG , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Huckenbeck+W%22%5BAuthor%5D - Huckenbeck W , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Efremovska+L%22%5BAuthor%5D - Efremovska L , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Schmidt+H%22%5BAuthor%5D - Schmidt H .   in : javascript:AL_get%28this, %27jour%27, %27Ann Hum Genet.%27%29; - Ann Hum Genet. 2004 Mar;68(Pt 2):120-7.

As for the list of authors, in our field major contributers are first and last author. Last author determines the research and the first does most part of experiments. I am rather sure in Human Genetics situation is the same.
 
Explanation of molecular biology results by polytical reasons reveals that explaining person is not familiar with the topic. It is rather easy to repeate those experiments. Up to now I didn't find any publication showing different result.
 
And finally, this:
It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.
 
was not the major aim of the paper you speak about. More precisely accents were on relatedness of the populations but not conflict between them.
 
Response of Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. would be also usefull:
 

Sir:

Neil Risch et al. in Correspondence http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B1 - 1 state that our paper http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B2 - 2 on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews lacked scientific merit because its conclusions are based on data reported for a single-locus genetic marker (HLA-DRB1). Although the use of single-locus markers can lead to misleading results, single-locus studies, whether using HLA or other markers, are common in this field and are regularly published in the specialist literature.

In papers reporting data on a single locus, it is important not to take anomalous results at face value but to interpret them in the light of other types of data, such as historical, anthropological and linguistic data, as well as testing them using other genetic markers (see, for example, ref. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B3 - 3 ). As we stated in ref. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6882/full/416677c.html#B2 - 2 , we are currently investigating the populations reported in our paper using other markers.

 
To end the story with Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. there are plenty of details pointing to the direction of characterising his work as strongly unscientific. The samples used in his research were taken from Clayton et al. 1997. This means that 3 years or more passed before the DNA samples were used by Arnaiz-Villena. Samples could have easily been mixed, labels could have been lost, and DNA sample quality drastically reduced depending on storage and shipping of the samples from Clayton et al. to Arnaiz-Villena et al. The study by Arnaiz-Villena et al. represents work that is not only biased due to the fact that collaborators of the work were located in Skopje but also due to the fact that all the DNA samples were analyzed at a facility in Skopje.
 
Analysis of the data at a neutral facility with a double-blind study would have been more appropriate in this case.
 
 In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_%28genetics%29 - loci (view http://www.goodrumj.com/PC-HGHG.jpg - MDS plot ). Then, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14533184 - Ayub et al. 2003 did the same thing using 182 loci (view http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greekadna/mfig001.gif - dendrogram ).

The disputed data continues to be cited all over the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet - Internet , mostly by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy - White Supremacists , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrocentrism - Afrocentrists and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia - Macedonian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism - nationalists who have political motivations to relate modern or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece - ancient Greeks to black Africans. However, it's no longer referenced by population geneticists in contemporary research, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza et al.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe
 
It seems though  Antonio Arnaiz-Villena's  work is not only a bright "example of misguided interpretation" in recent published books about genetics but he is a bright example of avoidance for geneticists as a whole.
 
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695 - http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695


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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 06:38
Originally posted by Perseas Perseas wrote:

On the contrary, the author in both journals used the same data. Hence the refutation from Luca Cavalli-Sforza and his team about Arnaiz-Villena unscientific methodology applies to both journals.
 
Data was different. It was similar approach but data itself was different.
 
 
 
To end the story with Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. there are plenty of details pointing to the direction of characterising his work as strongly unscientific. The samples used in his research were taken from Clayton et al. 1997. This means that 3 years or more passed before the DNA samples were used by Arnaiz-Villena. Samples could have easily been mixed, labels could have been lost, and DNA sample quality drastically reduced depending on storage and shipping of the samples from Clayton et al. to Arnaiz-Villena et al.
 
It is unlikely. Unless somebody did it mannualy. They are usually frosen in -80 freege and nothing happens to them for ages. DNA samples are rather stable. So, one need to prove before make such a claim. 
 
The study by Arnaiz-Villena et al. represents work that is not only biased due to the fact that collaborators of the work were located in Skopje but also due to the fact that all the DNA samples were analyzed at a facility in Skopje.
 
If it were falsificate some greek laboratories would try to prove that for sure.
 
Analysis of the data at a neutral facility with a double-blind study would have been more appropriate in this case.
 
Again: you have no experience to speak about it. Ask for samples and do some tests before saying that it is falsificate. Following your logic every data obtained by Greek archeologists about greece, macedonia, thrace and illiricum should be ommited as falsificate because of nationalistic ideas they support Confused You have branch of data and you must operate with them untill somebody find something else.  
 
 In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_%28genetics%29 - loci (view http://www.goodrumj.com/PC-HGHG.jpg - MDS plot ). Then, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14533184 - Ayub et al. 2003 did the same thing using 182 loci (view http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greekadna/mfig001.gif - dendrogram ).
 
Those two papers do not really contradicts to each other. Greeks are of course Mediterranean people. The major information might come from differences between nations.

The disputed data continues to be cited all over the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet - Internet , mostly by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy - White Supremacists , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrocentrism - Afrocentrists and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia - Macedonian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism - nationalists who have political motivations to relate modern or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece - ancient Greeks to black Africans. However, it's no longer referenced by population geneticists in contemporary research, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza et al.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe
 
It seems though  Antonio Arnaiz-Villena's  work is not only a bright "example of misguided interpretation" in recent published books about genetics but he is a bright example of avoidance for geneticists as a whole.
 
He continues to publish his works in peer reviewed jopurnals and his works are cited by others. This is not what I call avoidance.
A typical trick of greek friends in this forum is to make argument nationalistic and by that disprove it. I started to believe that some of them are not really interested in their history, but instead to pursuade the whole world in some fairy tales that nobody actually believe.
 
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695 - http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695
 
Again this story has nathing to du with the initial question were Macedonians mixed with Balkan populoation or not. It is regarding another research. And again, some passage from the text you kindly provided:
 
This incident, believed to be the first time a paper published in a peer reviewed biomedical journal has been retracted as a result of political comments, began when Dr Arnaiz-Villena was invited to be a guest editor of the September issue of Human Immunology---the official journal of the American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics.
 
Nothing is said about data itself.
 


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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 07:21
Originally posted by Perseas Perseas wrote:

The disputed data continues to be cited all over the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet - Internet , mostly by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy - White Supremacists , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrocentrism - Afrocentrists and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia - Macedonian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism - nationalists who have political motivations to relate modern or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece - ancient Greeks to black Africans. However, it's no longer referenced by population geneticists in contemporary research, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza et al.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe
 
It seems though  Antonio Arnaiz-Villena's  work is not only a bright "example of misguided interpretation" in recent published books about genetics but he is a bright example of avoidance for geneticists as a whole.
 
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695 - http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695
Thannks for the last link Perseas.Clap
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena's has proved himself completely untrustworthy.
Scentist that speak for African origin of the Japanese and Sub-saharan origin of the Greeks is completely cranky.Censored


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Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 07:21
Anton,
nice aguments..

I was expecting some answer..its like  immigrants from poor countries to richer countries with higher technical development level,with "lingua franca" (as english) ,with their own strong government and religion ,would assimilate natives.

Hard to believe.
I think u need more researches by scientists with surnames ending with -ov or -ski to prove the opposite! LOL

Also ,can u explain me the existence of Greek speaking,orthodox christian population in Macedonia ?









Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 08:18
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

 
Data was different. It was similar approach but data itself was different.
 
To quote from the link i gave above:
 
" Later that year, the same data was used in another study by the same author published in a different journal."
 
To be certain about this, i will send a mail to a geneticist i know from Spain to verify the above or not.
 
 
Quote It is unlikely. Unless somebody did it mannualy. They are usually frosen in -80 freege and nothing happens to them for ages. DNA samples are rather stable. So, one need to prove before make such a claim. 
 
Exactly thats the reason in order to avoid suspicions why its appopriate these studies to take place in neutral facilities.
 
Quote Again: you have no experience to speak about it. Ask for samples and do some tests before saying that it is falsificate. Following your logic every data obtained by Greek archeologists about greece, macedonia, thrace and illiricum should be ommited as falsificate because of nationalistic ideas they support Confused You have branch of data and you must operate with them untill somebody find something else.  
 
I like the fact you rush to write "you have no experience to speak about it" and then you jump to make false parallels to a field, "you have no experience to speak about it".  A great bulk of archaeological findings in Greece are not even discovered by greek archaeologists for starters but even those findings who are discovered indeed, are having a specific process before published, that demand participation of foreign specialists and in contrast with genetics, archaeological inscriptions cant be altered since in a such attempt, it will be more than clear to anyone who will examine it afterwards.
 
Quote  
Those two papers do not really contradicts to each other. Greeks are of course Mediterranean people. The major information might come from differences between nations.
 
How is that so? Not only them, but even yourself contradict Arnaiz-Villena's research. Note that the author speaks about sub-Saharan Origin of Greeks, not even about sub-Saharan genetic presence. Let aside the rest of "anomalous" conclusions he has reached (Japanese Nearly identical to West and South Africans, etc)

Quote  
He continues to publish his works in peer reviewed jopurnals and his works are cited by others. This is not what I call avoidance.
A typical trick of greek friends in this forum is to make argument nationalistic and by that disprove it. I started to believe that some of them are not really interested in their history, but instead to pursuade the whole world in some fairy tales that nobody actually believe.
 
While from the other hand, a typical trick of some Bulgarian friends in this forum is to present Controversial geneticists, with refuted unscientific approaches and researches as the top geneticists say themselves, used in internet as i read mostly by the cream of white suprematists, afrocentists and some balkan nationalists and present them as something that we should take seriously.
 
Therefore your last sentence could be easily your own self-criticism.
 
Quote
Again this story has nathing to du with the initial question were Macedonians mixed with Balkan populoation or not. It is regarding another research. And again, some passage from the text you kindly provided:
 
As it has to do with the approach this controversial person has for doing his 'work', it has lots to do. Anyone can read about transfers without permission to the university for research purposes, he is bound to  falsificate statistical data  to justify purchases, let aside all the rest, that make him completely untrustworthy.
 
In order to sum up. This person's research you present here, although you contradict even yourself his conclusions, cant be taken as valid for all the reasons discussed until now. If you want to make a point at least find one credible source, not one that has almost all the scientific community jumping on him either for his false approaches, or his politically oriented remarks inside his researches and ofcourse most importantly his wrong or "anomalous" as more credible geneticists say, conclusions.


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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 10:15
1. As I said before people  trust him by continuing citing his articles.
2. Question about Macedonians were supported by others. See my previous post and work in : javascript:AL_get%28this, %27jour%27, %27Ann Hum Genet.%27%29; - Ann Hum Genet. 2004 Mar;68(Pt 2):120-7.
Exactly how you like -- no Bulgarian and Macedonian names. Even no Greeks.
3. Those papers do not contradict each other since it is hardly to believe that any nation has only one origin.  Cavali-Sforza and his colleagues just supported obvious idea that Greeks as any others around Mediterranean See are authochtonic population.
4. As for the same or different research -- they were published in different papers. Ask your friends from Spain what happens when one tries to publish exactly the same research. They published many papers, not only regarding Greeks and Palestinians, but regarding some American tribes and  for example Chuvashes.
5. Many people don't like that kind of research for nationalistic reasons -- every Balkanic tendency to prove that their nation was first here. Works of Alvariz-Villena and some others shows that there was no first nation which makes you unhappy.


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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 03:28
"People like me" as well as http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512 - AE Code of Conduct have little tollerance on people constantly labelling their interlocutors as "Nationalists" in AE, as they seem to  think it makes their argument more valid. On the contrary, it is counter-productive, annoying and as i already demonstrated in the first time you used above, it is also incorrect to use, as it can work both ways, yet you insist to carry on. Think twice the very next time you will label someone as "nationalist". As much as you repeat over the same things, it doesnt make them any more valid and it doesnt change the fact either that Arnaiz-Villena's conclusions have been contradicted not only by Luca Cavali-Sforza but many people would argue also by common sense.

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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 05:41
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

Anton,
nice aguments..
 
Thank, brainstorm. :)

I was expecting some answer..its like  immigrants from poor countries to richer countries with higher technical development level,with "lingua franca" (as english) ,with their own strong government and religion ,would assimilate natives.
It happens in the UK for example.

Hard to believe.
I think u need more researches by scientists with surnames ending with -ov or -ski to prove the opposite! LOL
 
Did you read my post? There were a work from Germany without -ov and -ski showing he same.


Also ,can u explain me the existence of Greek speaking,orthodox christian population in Macedonia ?

What surprises you with that? You asked whether one could believe that there were mix  of Slavs with inhabitants of Byzantine Empire and the answer was "yes" because of genetical research. Who said it was complete assimilation of one nation by another?

 




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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 05:43
Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

Thannks for the last link Perseas.Clap
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena's has proved himself completely untrustworthy.
Scentist that speak for African origin of the Japanese and Sub-saharan origin of the Greeks is completely cranky.Censored
 
Completely cranky, my friend, is to speak about somebody's work without reading the original paper.


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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 18:19
I feel really sorry for interrupting you guys, it looks like you are having so much fun.
Perseas, when you remind the others about the code of conduct, do you remember it yourself. Dont you realize that you are posting genetic researches in the linguistic forum, and this is completely irrelevant to the topic???
Guys, with all my benevolence, why dont you move on another thread?
I hope it wont make you feel bad, but I want to be part of the community of those who break the rules, and I am posting something irrelevant too (of course Perseas as a responsible moderator will delete everything at the end, as he should).
In my opinion talking about national genes, and ethnogenetics is completely weird. There have never existed nations, or even smaller communities completely homogeneous.
The real heritage is the cultural one. And of course that the modern greeks inherite very important elements of the ancient greek culture. The same thing cannot be said of the modern macedonians. It is true that the ancient macedonians didnt dissapear but they mixed with the newcomers, but their culture didnt make it. The culture of the modern macedonians is, in my opinion, south-slavic and bulgaric. But, I repeat, this should be discussed somewhere else.
I hope you will start discussing again about the albanian language and its sound.
 


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Prej heshtjes...!


Posted By: tirana3000
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 05:40
Interesting discution
maria d.  My origine is from lake of scutari but i do not see any similarity of any italian dialects. Including barese
 
G


Posted By: Kalos
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 02:03
As far as I know there aren't any writings in dacian but Ovidius, a roman poet, did write poems in dacian according to his own testimony. I wonder if there are similar mentions of writings in illirian that are lost now but that might be found in some future archeological diggings?


Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 06:38
Well, I guess to return to the topic AND to give a bit of perspective...

Albanian...

grammatically: close to Greek
Language roots: Old old old relation/links to proto-Baltic and Germanic
Vocabulary: Italian and Latin

I would guess the place to look would be here:
http://www.hjholm.de/
http://www.hjholm.de/SLRD.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=yfZZX1qjpvkC&printsec=frontcover#PPA111,M1

Albanian is though, increasingly today, to have originated within a Greek-Armenian-Hittite circle of languages.




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