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The Early Byzantine Military (306-610)

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Description: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc...
Moderators: Constantine XI, Byzantine Emperor, Knights, Sparten, Temujin
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=14093
Printed Date: 25-Sep-2018 at 08:34
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Topic: The Early Byzantine Military (306-610)
Posted By: rider
Subject: The Early Byzantine Military (306-610)
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 05:35
In contrast to Byzantine Emperor's Late Military topic, I have created this. Seeing very much content of the Late Military belonging to other era's it seemed very appropriate to do so.
 
All military aspects of the Byzantine Empire are very interesting to discuss and inspect; let it be either the Battle of Adrianople or Manzikert. To first start the interesting discussion that should erupt here, I am asking a few questions that are now being discussed in the Late topic but should be here.
 
   1. The existence of such special military unit as 'Trapezuntine Archers' (I and Byzantine Emperor are trying to solve this out but we have had no luck).
 
   2. The home ports of the Byzantine Navy, during it's Golden Age.
 
   3. Which of the Emperors created the different tagmata and themata units?
 
 
 
 
Thanks for anyone participating,


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.



Replies:
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 15:10
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

1. The existence of such special military unit as 'Trapezuntine Archers' (I and Byzantine Emperor are trying to solve this out but we have had no luck).
 
Thanks to rider for opening this new topic and for help bearing the flag of Byzantine history here at AE!  Big smile
 
Yes we are discussing this curious "Trapezuntine Archer" unit, as to whether or not it actually existed as a special unit in the army, or if it is a fictional creation of Medieval Total War.
 
Please weigh in with what you think, everyone.
 
Here is what our colleague Digenis said about it in the late Byzantine military thread:
 
Originally posted by Digenis Digenis wrote:

"Trebizond archers" are an invention of Medieval Total War.
(unfortunately they survive in MTW2)

(it is sad that not an existing unit was used,since -at least until 1204- the Byzantine army had a great variety of different units (incl.archers),in comparison with western armies:knights,sergeants,peasants)

There wasnt anything to specialize them as a unit.
The only mention them is a unit of some 400 of them to serve in Cilician Armenia's forces.
They were Byzantine archers from Trebizond-nothing special-nothing different from the other byzantine archers.
 
Here is what I posted on the subject:
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

There are so many other units they (MTW) could have chosen that are attested in the sources - Mourtatoi, Tourkopouloi, Tzangatores.  All of these are late Byzantine archery units of some kind that are mentioned in documentary and chronicle sources(...)Michael VIII and Andronikos II enlisted some of the Cilician and Caucasian highlanders, who were noted as proficient archers, not as archery units in the army, but as border defenders.  The emperors wanted them to guard the frontier against the Turks by staying in the area with their families and performing periodic raids.  These highlanders were even granted a small-scale pronoia at one point.
 
Now what about archers from the area of Trebizond in the early period of the empire?  Byzantium had control over the southern Black Sea littoral and it was a hotly contested area at some points.  Was it noted for producing talented archers in the earlier period?
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 15:33
Taken from "The Crusades" by David Nicolle

Infantry archers from the mountainous hinterland of Trabzon (Trebizond) were the most effective forces in the small Byzantine "Empire of Trebizon". They used composite bows and are likely to have been similar in other ways to the infantry archers of neighbouring Caucasus regions, both Christian and Muslim.


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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 16:11
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

   3. Which of the Emperors created the different tagmata and themata units?
 
Some infos about Themata units. During 6th century according to the Strategikon of Maurice, a thema unit had two divisions called "Meri" with highest number of troops 16.384.
 
The subvisions are:
- 'Phalangarchia' (sp?) 8,192 highest number of men
- 'Merarchia' 4,096 men
- 'Chiliarchia'
- 'Pentakosiarchia'
- 'Sintagma'
- 'Taksi'
- 'Tetrarchia'
- 'Dilochia'
- 'Lochos'
 
In 9th century according to the Arab writer Ibn Khurdadhbih, a Thema Unit had two divisions called "Turmae". The highest number of troops is now 10,000.
 
The subdivisions changed to:
 
- 'Bandon'
- 'Pentarcchia'
- 'Pentikontarchia'
- 'Dekarchia'
 
During late 9th century and mid 11th century, a thema consists of 2-3 "turmae" or "Meri" and the highest number of troops reaches 18,000 men.
 
 
After 11th century the Themata units are abolished and  Byzantines instead started using mercenaries.


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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 21:06
Originally posted by Perseas Perseas wrote:

Taken from "The Crusades" by David Nicolle

Infantry archers from the mountainous hinterland of Trabzon (Trebizond) were the most effective forces in the small Byzantine "Empire of Trebizon". They used composite bows and are likely to have been similar in other ways to the infantry archers of neighbouring Caucasus regions, both Christian and Muslim.
 
Yeah, this is what I was alluding to when I talked about archers from Paphlagonia and from the mountainous region west of Trebizond.  The area was noted for its men skilled in archery.  But there was never a special unit designated for Trapezuntine archers in the Byzantine army (that I have come across).  So I guess MTW was correct in allowing you to make these archers when you own the province of Trebizond.
 
What was the timeframe in which Nicolle mentions these archers: before or during the period of the Crusades?
 
Originally posted by Perseas Perseas wrote:

After 11th century the Themata units are abolished and  Byzantines instead started using mercenaries.
 
Yes, the armies of the themes were eventually demobilized in the 10th-early 11th century (which was a bad idea), so the Alexios I Komnenos had to hire mercenaries to replace them.
 
The tagmata did not die out all together; although, like your chart indicates, the numbers contained within them became smaller.  it is used in the late period to designate small groups of infantry or cavalry.  In the 14th century campaign army there was a psilika tagmata, which contained light-armed infantry.  Overall the term is synonymous with the word allagion in Byzantine military terminology.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 12:21
Thanks Perseus. You have been of great help, unfortuanetly, you didn't mentioned who created the various themata units.
 
I have heard that Constantine I created the first of such that later transformed into themata units?
 
And Byzantine Emperor, as you have surely (not to anger you if you haven't) read the Alexeid, can you tell me how accurate the military descriptions and battle descriptions are?


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 12:50
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

And Byzantine Emperor, as you have surely (not to anger you if you haven't) read the Alexeid, can you tell me how accurate the military descriptions and battle descriptions are?
 
Yes, I have read the Alexiad.  Anna Komnenos had a classical education, like most Byzantines who could pay for it.  She does a fair amount of typically-Byzantine archaizing in her writing, i.e. copying wholesale battle descriptions from Thucydides et al., but in other parts she is quite accurate and writes with an observance to detail.  For example, her descriptions of the medical techniques used to treat her father Alexios I are very vivid.
 
Another example that shows her accuracy (in military matters) is her description of a crossbow:
 
Quote
 
Anna Komnenos, Alexiad, Book X
 
The warriors at once flocked to that spot, as they saw he was strongly armed for battle. But Marianus, speaking in their language, advised the Latins to have no fear, and not to fight against fellow-Christians. But one of the Latins hit his helmet with his crossbow. This cross-bow is a bow of the barbarians quite unknown to the Greeks; and it is not stretched by the right hand pulling the string whilst the left pulls the bow in a contrary direction, but he who stretches this warlike and very far-shooting weapon must lie, one might say, almost on his back and apply both feet strongly against the semi-circle of the bow and with his two hands pull the string with all his might in the contrary direction. In the middle of the string is a socket, a cylindrical kind of cup fitted to the string itself, and about as long as an arrow of considerable size which reaches from the string to the very middle of the bow; and through this arrows of many sorts are shot out. [256] The arrows used with this bow are very short in length, but very thick, fitted in front with a very heavy iron tip. And in discharging them the string shoots them out with enormous violence and force, and whatever these darts chance to hit, they do not fall back, but they pierce through a shield, then cut through a heavy iron corselet and wing their way through and out at the other side. So violent and ineluctable is the discharge of arrows of this kind. Such an arrow has been known to pierce a bronze statue, and if it hits the wall of a very large town, the point of the arrow either protrudes on the inner side or it buries itself in the middle of the wall and is lost. Such then is this monster of a crossbow, and verily a devilish invention. And the wretched man who is struck by it, dies without feeling anything, not even feeling the blow, however strong it be.
 
To resume, the arrow from the crossbow struck the top of Marianus' helmet and pierced it in its flight without touching a hair of his head, for Providence warded it off. Then the man speedily discharged another arrow at the Count, and hit him in the arm; the arrow bored through the shield, passed through his cuirass of scale armour, and touched his side. A certain Latin priest who happened to be standing in the stem with twelve other fighting men, saw this, and let fly several arrows against Marianus. Not even then did Marianus surrender, but fought fiercely himself and encouraged his men to do the same, so that three times over the men with the priest had to be replaced, as they were wounded and sore pressed. The priest himself, however, although he had received many blows, and was streaming with his own blood, remained quite fearless. For the rules concerning priests are not the same among the Latins as they are with us ; For we are given the command by the canonical laws and the teaching of the Gospel, " Touch not, taste not, handle not! For thou art consecrated." Whereas the Latin barbarian will simultaneously handle divine things, and wear his shield on his left arm, and hold his spear in his right hand, and at one and the same time he communicates the body and blood of God, and looks murderously and becomes 'a man of blood,' as it says in the psalm of David. For this barbarian race is no less devoted to sacred things than it is to war. And so this man of violence rather than priest, wore his priestly garb at the same time that he handled the oar and had an eye equally to naval or land warfare, fighting simultaneously with the sea and with men. But [257] our rules, as I have just remarked, are derived from the . . . of Aaron and Moses and our first high-priest. After the battle had raged fiercely from the evening till next midday, the Latins surrendered to Marianus, much against their will, after asking and obtaining a promise of immunity.
 
As for battles themselves, like I said, she tends to plagiarize classical Greek historians.  To Byzantine writers, the greats such as Thucydides, Herodotus, and Homer were treasure troves of ready-made battle descriptions.  They thought "Why write it over again if it was written with such power and excitement by the greats?" LOL
 
This not to say that there is no truth to her accounts of battles.  Some historians think that she lifted accounts of battles from her husband Bryennios' short history (he was one of Alexios' generals).  Anna herself probably interviewed eyewitnesses, for she was very young at the time of the First Crusade and the Normans excursions into the Balkans.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 14:25
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

 
  2. The home ports of the Byzantine Navy, during it's Golden Age.


A map of the Byzantine empire during 10th century.
From "History of the Greek nation" vol.H

Themata districts are designed by using as source mainly Const.Porfyrogennetus.

With blue ,i marked the mentioned Major Ports of the Navy.



From West to East:
Dyrrachium
Koroni
Patrai
Corinth
Monemvasia
Constantinople
Attaleia
Trebzon



Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 15:03
Very good Digenis, thanks. This helps us too, alot. Can you say the dates of this map?
 
Were there any major ports on Cypros?
 
Quote They thought "Why write it over again if it was written with such power and excitement by the greats?"
 
So, they copied the description of Marathon over to Manzikert; I hope not for it would be treason. Can you name any such cases?


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There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 23:18
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

So, they copied the description of Marathon over to Manzikert; I hope not for it would be treason. Can you name any such cases?
 
Oh come on!  They would only copy sections that portray the illustrious exploits of Greeks in battle.  In other words, things that aided in projecting the Byzantine ideology of the emperor (and empire - oikoumene) being at the head of the Christian kingdoms of the world. 
 
If you read the Alexiad, you can see how Anna peppers her writing on almost every page with classical allusions and anecdotes.  I would have to look for specific passages that were lifted wholesale.  If she leaves character names within the text, such as Achilles or Ajax, and blatant Homeric epithets, chances are she inserted something from the Iliad in there!
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 11:31
Oh, I am planning to read it very soon.

Also the other Byzantine authors: Procopius, Psellos and I can't name others for I don't remember them: how true are they?

Could you name the most of such Byzantine chronologies?

And did William of Tyre ever speak of the Byzantines?


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There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 15:52
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Oh, I am planning to read it very soon.
 
Excellent.  Please share your observations with us when you do.

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Also the other Byzantine authors: Procopius, Psellos and I can't name others for I don't remember them: how true are they?
 
Both of them were imperial bureaucrats.  So you have to weigh what they say with their factional sympathies. 
 
Of course we know that Prokopios praised Justinian for his deeds and building programs in one set of writings, and totally tore him down in The Secret Histories.  We have to maintain a balance between these two views to get the truth, I think.
 
Psellos was a talented academic and philosopher.  He also made many enemies as the advisor to a series of emperors.  So naturally he builds some emperors up and criticizes others according to both their accoplishments and which side of the dynastic struggles they were on in the Macedonian period.

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

And did William of Tyre ever speak of the Byzantines?
 
Yes I think he does, although briefly in the context of the Crusade. 
 
You should read the 10th century account of the Holy Roman imperial envoy Liutprand of Cremona.  He came to Constantinople to seek a Byzantine princess as a wife for Otto II.  He despised the Byzantines and was one of the perpetrators who spread the myths about "Greek effeminacy and perfidity" back in the West.
 
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/liudprand1.html - Medieval Sourcebook: Liutprand of Cremona: Report of his Mission to Constantinople
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 16:35
Wasn't Psellos the secretary of seven or nine emperors? I read it somewhere.

Actually, my main question was if you could name other Byzantine chorniclers.


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There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 10:08

Constantine V created the first Tagmatas, originally from Thematic units like the Opsikion who had developed a taste for domestic rebellion.

They later evolved into a full time professional force of the Empire.

By the time of Basil, the Tagmata consisted of Imperial and Provincial Tagmata. The provincial tagmata were full time soldiers who did the real duty of defending and fighting for the empire rather than the thematic soldiers who rarely saw much action and were subsequently deprived of pay, equipment and eventually their position in society.

At the moment, I'm trying to compile a list of Byzantine units as I'm drawing them one by one.
 
Anyone have comphrensive list?


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 13:49
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

At the moment, I'm trying to compile a list of Byzantine units as I'm drawing them one by one.
 
Anyone have comphrensive list?
 
Sounds cool.  Any particular reason you are drawing them?  You should post an example in here when you finish.  We would love to see it!Smile
 
As far as a list, I would read the three main army books covering all the periods of Byzantine history by Treadgold, Haldon, and Bartusis.  These will give you the most detailed perspective.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 14:59
Drawing? I shall soon contact you with a PM then.. indeed, it might be useful to you and me... wait and see.
 
Now, a list should be found from BE's books (I just must abbreviate your name, sorry) that he mentioned. But we should shorten your work and help you out here, I believe that mentioning Skutatoi and Klibinarophoi and Kataphraktoi is pointless (with Menlaviatoi and Varangian Guard coming up too). A start still.
 
Could you post an example of one of your drawings?


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 00:22
http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg - http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg
 
"save as"
 
You probably haven't heard of medieval:total realism have you? We're preparing our research so that when Medieval: Total War 2 comes out we can rectify the historical inaccuracies which plaque almost every CA release.
 
Plus, its also for personal gratification as I like the Byzantines.
 
I have a list of Byzantine units, but since my Greek is non-existent, I have only been able to put down English names only.
 
I'm having fun drawing the Varangian Guards especially those who have been in Byzantine service for a long time as they would have significant Byzantine influence on their equipment. Clap
 
We have dedicated historians for other factions, but none for Byzantium. I decided to not take over the whole research as I don't have the time, but I was hoping people from these forums would be interested in forming a Byzantine research team with me.
 
My team's work was published in a PC magazine before (and a widely circulated one as well), so if we're successful this time, we might attract attention as a fan modification.


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 01:29
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg - http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/excubit.jpg
 
"save as"
 
Very nice! Clap
 
You even have the splint vambraces and the almond-shaped shield.  Good observations. 
 
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

We have dedicated historians for other factions, but none for Byzantium. I decided to not take over the whole research as I don't have the time, but I was hoping people from these forums would be interested in forming a Byzantine research team with me.
 
My team's work was published in a PC magazine before (and a widely circulated one as well), so if we're successful this time, we might attract attention as a fan modification.
 
I have seen the work they have been doing at http://s15.invisionfree.com/Byzantium_TW/index.php?act=idx - Romaiki Aftokratoria , a mod for Rome Total War.  Were you involved with this project?
 
You will find a treasure trove of information in my http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military thread .  We discussed everything from Varangians, to Pronoiar Cavalry, to Trapezuntine soldiers.  Rider was very helpful in encouraging people to contribute.  It is still going too; I encourage you to join in on the discussions.
 
I will be glad to help here at AE with your research on Byzantium.  It will be limited at times, unfortunately, because of my school work.  But I definitely encourage you to bookmark this thread and my late-era army thread and check back often.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 02:59
If my understanding is correct, the proper tagmata units as we know them (a mobile and professional field army of the middle Byzantine period) were instituted by Constantine V after he defeated his rival Artavasdus. He broke up the troublesome Opsikian theme into smaller and more managable pieces, from which he then proceeded to establish his professional tagmata units. These would, of course, have been an evolution of previous professional units, but ones whose economic basis for existence would have been in Western Anatolia.

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It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.



Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 03:51

The Tagmatas were an evolution in my opinion.

The original Tagmatii were composed of both imperial regiments like the Scholae and the Excubitores and also from the Opsikion regiments whose name Obseqieum suggests origins from an elite unit before. They were based in the capital and as u mentioned Constantine XI around Western Anatolia.
 
Later, as the thematic troops declined in quality, the Tagmata expanded to include any full time professional soldier, native and mercenary whereas the Themata were not full tiime professionals in the first place. These Tagmata were the "provincial Tagmata", professional soldiers recruited to expand and defend the empire's borders.  
 
I've tried to represent the Imperial Tagmata, provincial Tagmata and the Themata in my unit lists so far.
 
At the moment, I'm just researching various fields of Byzantine history.
 
I think I have a heavy cavalry problem, I just can't seem to stop drawing them!!
 
I have heard of the aforementioned mod, but as the leader of the project said. It is dead due to lack of skinners and modellers.
 
Unfortunately, both me and the leader of the mod are on different modding teams for MTW2. He is a member of Medieval Auctoriso and I'm in Medieval: Total Realism: Age of Ambition of which I am currently leading until I hand those duties off to the real leader. So far we have 24 members in the team.
 
It would much be appreciated if someone listed the native military units of Byzantium in the middle period, lets, say 1000 - 1081. And in Greek names too.
 
FOr example what is the Greek name for the Imperial Tagmatic Cavalry units?
 
Is it Basilikon Tagmata Kavallarioi ? or something else?
 


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:07
I doubt the term 'Kavallarioi' was used much by Byzantines. Something along (a speculator am I) Basilikon Tagmata [insert name here]...
 
That picture is SSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO impressive. I can't stop wtching it. Do you have a gallery: please say you do. I will contact you certainly now.
 
Actually, I have heard of Medieval: Total Realism. I still go much to SCC but I nowadays try more to see what the FOurth Age and Chivalry have done in the time. M2TR doesn't have a SCC Forum, does it? What is it's forum then? 
 
Tell us what units you do know and then we can help you out.
 
BTW, the unit list of Romaiki Aftokratia was out somehwere. I'll try to find it.


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:11

Originally posted by Romaiki Aftokratia Romaiki Aftokratia wrote:

Military Tech Tree

Militia

Police - phylakes(urban militia)
Imperial Police - Tzakones guardsmen, +10% law

Archery
Bowyer Psiloi, Pezoi Toxotai(after 1328)
Archery Range - Psiloi toxotai, Solenarios(till Late Era)
Bowyers Workshop - Peltastoi
Master Bowyer - Peltastoi Enoplioi
Huge Archery Range -Mourtatoi(till High Era)

Barracks
Spearmaker - Skoutatoi, Epirote Greek Infantry(AoR in Epirhus)
Spearmaker Workshop - Kontaratoi
Spearmaker's Guild - Paramonai,
Master swordsmith Menevlatoi(till High Era)
Imperial Swordsmith Dismounted Kataphraktoi(till Late Era)

Stables
Stables - Trapezeountae,Turkopouloi(AoR Arab provinces)
Cavalry stables - Latinikon Tagmata(will disappear after 1204), Hippeis Toxotai
Military Stables Stratiotai(till Late Era), Kataphraktoi(till High Era)
Elite cavalry stables Athanatoi Immortals, Klibanophoroi, Pronoia Allagia(after 1204)(till High Era)
Imperial Cavalry Stables Tagmata Klibanophoroi, Tagmata Kataphraktoi(till High Era)


Imperial Palace Imperial Varangian Guards(huge city)



-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 09:55

I looked at it before, but I preferred to use my own list though.

I listed the following for the middle period:

In generic names:

 

Imperial Tagmatic Cavalry:

Scholae (The Schools)

Excubitores (The Watchmen)

Arithmos (The Numbers)

Hikanatoi (The Able Ones)

Klibanophoroi

Latinikon Tagmata

 

Imperial Tagmatic Infantry:

Numeroi (The Bathhouse Boys)

Optimatoi (The Best Ones)

Tagma Ton Teikhon (of the Walls)

Varangian Guard

 

Provincial Tagmatic Cavalry:

Tagmatic Kataphraktoi

Tagmatic Kavallarioi

 

Provincial Tagmatic Infantry:

Tagmatic Skoutatoi

Tagmatic Menaulatoi

 

Thematic Infantry:

Thematic Infantry

Peltastos

Psiloi

Levy slingers

Levy archers

Levy Javelineers

 

Thematic Cavalry:

Prokursatores native lancers

Hyperkerastai native horse archers

Trapezitoi native javelineers

 

I don't have a "gallery" as such...



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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 14:37
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

I doubt the term 'Kavallarioi' was used much by Byzantines. Something along (a speculator am I) Basilikon Tagmata [insert name here]...
 
The kavallarioi were used extensively by the Nicaean emperors, hence the development of the organization of the Latinikon in the army.  Michael VIII Palaiologos was fond of mercenaries of all stripes and brought the kavallarioi into the restored Byzantine military after 1261.  His son Andronikos II might have used them, although they declined in importance due to his distaste for Michael's unionist religious policy.  The kavallarioi might have survived in the regional Megala Allagia units.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 16:22
But you don't have Klibinaroiphoi as a separate unit? This because lack of information as if it indeed did exist separate or not? I would say it did.
 
As a gallery I tried to find out if you had a place where your images are uploaded in the internet. Perhaps create one at Photobucket for our sake to admire them?
 
Have you drawn any other historical units? Maybe the triarii (I am very fascinated about them, I can almost hear someone shouting: Ad triarios rediisse! and then few maniples marchign forward with all haste) or Companion cavalry?


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 23:38
Are you saying I shouldnt have the Klibanophori as a separate unit or did I not mention it in my unit list??
 
My units are restricted to mainly Byzantines.
 
So if Kavallarioi is not used, what Greek word is used describe cavalry then?


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 09:28
You didn't mention it in your list as far as I can see, is what I wanted to say.
 
Trust Emperor in case of Kavallarioi, I said I am wrong in that one.


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 11:11
Lol, I did list the Klibanophori under the Imperial Tagmatic Heavy Cavalry section. Can u see it?
 
So do I use Hippeis or Kavallarioi???
 
And is it Basilikon or Basilikoi?
 
Right now MTR's HQ is at http://www.totalwar.org - www.totalwar.org , in fact we have a list of all the concept art we've done so far....
 
Im up to my armpits in research byzantine economy, city structure...it sucks researching everything by myself :(
 
All concept work is very slow at the moment, and in fact, i'm sharing my time between lots of other concepts too....
 
At the moment, I have:
 
Hyperakerastai
Trapezitoi
Prokoursatores
KLibanophori
Kataphraktoi
Hikanatoi
Varangians
Imperial Tagmatic Infantrymen
 
in the works...
 
Im tired and exhausted so everything is slowwwwww hehehe
 
I would appreciate it if people here came up with a comphrensive list of Byzantine units with short descriptions or at least joining MTR as a team member/research and helping to implement proposed modifications into MTW2
 
 


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 13:36
I can see it indeed.
 
Quote
So do I use Hippeis or Kavallarioi???
 
And is it Basilikon or Basilikoi?
 
BE knows the answer to this.
 
Quote I would appreciate it if people here came up with a comphrensive list of Byzantine units with short descriptions
 
This is actually the easier part than to join as a researcher. Well, if BE starts then we all others shall continue. Ofcourse, I think that we should first ask what timeline you do use.


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 00:00
1066 - 1453, perhaps 1492 (the mod's length)
 
 


-------------
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 12:32
Any Greek want to correct the following? Please!!
My mind is in spirals pronouncing Greek words...Sleepy
 
Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hippeis

Scholae (The Schools)

Excubitores (The Watchmen)

Arithmos (The Numbers)

Hikanatoi (The Able Ones)

Klibanophoroi

 

Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Numeroi (The Bathhouse Boys)

Optimatoi (The Best Ones)

Tagma Ton Teikhon (of the Walls)

Varangoi Hetaeraia or Varangoi Pelekephoroi  (Varangoi denotes foreigner not the Guard unit so I used terms like Hetaeraia or Pelekephoroi as terms of distinction)

 
Note:
There also provincial Varangian Guard soldiers, not sure if I want to implement them or not. 
 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis :

Thematikoi Tagmata Kataphraktoi

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Kontaratoi (lancers)

 

Note: Provincial Tagmatic soldiers are Thematic soldiers who are regular full-time permanent professional soldiers of the Theme. Unlike other Thematic soldiers who are part-timers.

 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Skoutatoi

Menaulatoi

 

Thematikoi Hoplitai

Thematikoi Hoplitai Kontaratoi (foot spearman)

Thematikoi Peltastoi

Thematikoi Toxotai

Taxeis Sphendonetai

Taxeis Toxotai

Taxeis Akontistai

 
Notes: 
Taxeis denotes levy, or obligation, call up to service.
Kontaratoi indicates particular weapon and function.
 

Thematikoi Hippeis:

Prokoursatores native lancers

Hyperkerastai Hippotoxotai native horse archers

Trapezitoi Hippakontistai native javelineers

 
 
So what do you think Byzantine EMperor? Would you accept an invitation to joing MTR:AOA as a researcher?
 
IN MTR we have a position of a head researcher, basically a head researcher leads a research team for a particular faction.
 
Its not a full time job and there is plenty of time before MTW2 to complete the research.
 
As you know I have my hands full with research and formulating technology trees and gameplay features.
 
Currently, I am thinking of buildings that represrent Byzantium's logistical mechanisms.
 
Clap


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:36
I am afraid that BE has his hands full studying his second or first course. Can't answer for him though.
 
Couldn't you name them perhaps:
 
Tagma ton Varangion?


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 18:14
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

 
Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hippeis

Scholae (The Schools)

Excubitores/Excubites (The Watchmen)

Foideratoi (The City Guards)

Arithmos (The Numbers)

Hikanatoi (The Able Ones)

Klibanophoroi

 

Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Numeroi/Noumerarioi (The Bathhouse Boys)

Optimatoi (The Best Ones)

Tagma Ton Teikhon (of the Walls)

Varangoi Hetaeria or Varangoi Pelekephoroi  (Varangoi denotes foreigner not the Guard unit so I used terms like Hetaeraia or Pelekephoroi as terms of distinction)

Varangoi Koulpiggoi
Druzina (Russians) 
Megali Katalaniki Hetaeria
Hetaeria Navarraion
 
Note:
There also provincial Varangian Guard soldiers, not sure if I want to implement them or not. 
 
Special Forces 
Akritai/Horophylakai (Border sentinels)
Apelatai (Irregular army)
Boukellarioi (Cavalry)
 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis :

Thematikoi Tagmata Kataphraktoi/kataphraktarioi

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Kontaratoi (lancers)

 

Note: Provincial Tagmatic soldiers are Thematic soldiers who are regular full-time permanent professional soldiers of the Theme. Unlike other Thematic soldiers who are part-timers.

 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Skoutatoi/Skouteratoi/Hoplitai *essentially these three were the same

Menaulatoi

 

Thematikoi Hoplitai

Thematikoi Hoplitai Kontaratoi (foot spearman)

Thematikoi Peltastai/Peltai

Thematikoi Toxotai

Pelekiphoroi (those using axes)
Vardoukion (men using cudgels [greek: vardoukion])

Taxeis Sphendonistai/Sfendovolistai

Taxeis Toxotai/Sagittatorai

Taxeis Akontistai

 
Notes: 
Taxeis denotes levy, or obligation, call up to service.
Kontaratoi indicates particular weapon and function.
 

Thematikoi Hippeis:

Prokoursatores native lancers

Hyperkerastai Hippotoxotai native horse archers

Trapezitae Hippakontistai native javelineers

 


-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 21:12
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

There also provincial Varangian Guard soldiers, not sure if I want to implement them or not.
 
Which period is this?  I thought the Varangians were exclusively the emperor's bodyguard in Constantinople.  Exarchs, kephalai, and other provincial governors probably had their own bodyguards, but the Varangians in the Hetaireiai were based out of the City.
 
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

Currently, I am thinking of buildings that represrent Byzantium's logistical mechanisms.
 
This sounds quite interesting.  I, for one, am interested in reconstructing Byzantine logistics and functional buildings, or at least discussing what they may have been like, since the Byzantine primary sources are relatively silent or undetailed about facets of everyday life.
 
I would encourage you to start a separate topic on this in the Medieval Forum of AE. It doesn't have to be specifically geared towards the game, but instead focused on Byzantine buildings, their functions, and the specialists who worked in them.
 


-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 21:49
I am sure, if it would contain valuable information, it could be stickied too in time.
 
Interesting, we have an book called 'Btsantsi inimene' on sale in Estonia. I, not especially into social history, have not looked it, but it might be useful in such topic.
 
Note: 'Btsantsi inimene' translates as 'Person/Citizen/People of Byzantine Empire'
 


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 04:08

At Perseas

 

Thanks for the Greek renderings

 

However, units like Akritai are descriptors of function rather than a specific unit. Such functions can be fulfilled by already existing units of light cavalry who were Akritai by function. Moreover, the Akritai receded in this time period, but make a comeback during the 13th centuries in Anatolia with the resettlement of Alans, Cumans, etc, etc in Western Asia Minor.

 

What is Koulpiggoi???

 

By the way this unit list is for early period 1066 1118, so I wont include the Catalans and the Navarrese yet.

 

However , the Druzhina is interesting though.

 

At Byzantine Emperor

 

Greetings Megalos Basileus!!

 

Varangians who did not make the Varangian Guard in the capital were sent to the provinces, probably to a Dux of a particular theme. There are mentions of Varangians in the provinces and not in the Emperors presence. Cant remember the source though.  L

 

Yep, logistics will be represented by military warehouses that requisition (by increasing revenue extracting power by the city). They also increase loyalty and public order penalties because of the unpopularity of requisitioning. Evil Protonotarios :P

 



-------------
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 07:02
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

At Perseas

 

Thanks for the Greek renderings

 

However, units like Akritai are descriptors of function rather than a specific unit. Such functions can be fulfilled by already existing units of light cavalry who were Akritai by function. Moreover, the Akritai receded in this time period, but make a comeback during the 13th centuries in Anatolia with the resettlement of Alans, Cumans, etc, etc in Western Asia Minor

 
What is Koulpiggoi???
 

By the way this unit list is for early period 1066 1118, so I wont include the Catalans and the Navarrese yet.

 

However , the Druzhina is interesting though.

 
Hello Nestorian,
 
I missed the part that the list was about the period 1066 - 1118.
 
Koulpiggoi were Varangians that arrived as mercenaries to Byzantium, during the late 11th c. in the Komneni army. If i remember right, their name derives from the old skandinavian word "kylfingar" which has as its root the word "Kylfa". Kylfa means the club and the use of club instead of pelekis was the main difference between Koulpiggoi and the rest of Varangians.
 
 
 


-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:08
Hello all, I'm somewhat taken aback by the fierceness by which people like their Byzantines on this Forum!! Excellent discussion so far, let me add my 2 cents:

-On the Tagmata (by the way, in modern Greek "tagma" literally means battalion and "tagmatarhis" in the Greek army of today is literally the rank of major):
The Tagmata provided the nucleus of the Byzantine army, were exclusively cavalry, were separate from the Thematic troops, and generally were based in Constantinople itself or its immediate vicinity. Four basic units of the Tagmata are recorded, the letter(s) within hyphens denoting where the emphasis should be placed when the word is pronounced in Greek:
--Schol-ai- (this is pronouned "e" as the "e" in "emporium"), the most senior and probably the oldest and most veteran of the Tagmata. There seems to have been more than one Scholai, seven of them are recorded in the early 5th century "Noticia Dignitatum" and Byzantine chronicler Procopius tells us that the Scholai of his day (6th-7th c. AD) totalled 3,500 men,way too many for just one unit.
--Excubitii (unknown word, Latin in origin), next in seniority. Established by Leo I (457-474 AD).
--Arithm-o-s or V-i-gla ("Number" or "Watch", the latter name occuring most in sources). On campaign the Vigla guarded the Emperor's tent at night and was in charge of prisoners of war.
--Ikanat-oi- (the "Ables", -oi- pronounced as the "ea" in "eat"), by far the youngest of the Tagmata having been established by Nikephoros I Phokas (802-811 AD).
Each of the Tagmata was commanded by a Domestik-o-s, except of the Arithmos or Vigla commanded by a Droung-a-rios. Each of these officers had a Topotiret-e-s as his second in command. By the 10th c. the Domestic of the Scholae had become the most senior army  officer and would assume C-in-C  in the absence of the Emperor; the only other military person that superseded the Domestic of the Scholae was the strategos of the elite and key Anatolik-o-n ("Eastward") theme, roughly the area SE and SW of modern Afyon in Turkey. This is also the post (Domestic of the Scholai, that is) that Alexios Komnenos held in 1078 prior to his becoming Emperor; of course the Scholai of his day were very different than  the same units during the peak of Byzantine power since now, as Anna Komnena tells us, they consisted of a large number of Frankish mercenaries.
On campaign the Domestic of the Excubitii also seems to have been responsible for the men called skr-i-vones,  medical orderlies attached to thematic units.
There's debate as to how many men served in the Tagmatic units. The Arab chronicler Ibn-Khordadbah places Tagmatic strength at 6,000 men and 6,000  servants  but it is not clear whether the figure of 6,000 applies to the overall strength of all Tagmata or to the strength of each tagmatic unit. An overall strength of 6,000 (1500 per tagma), however, seems to agree with another anonymous 10th c. source, the "Anonymus Vari" which says that the Scholarii consisted of thirty banda which (the bandon being 50-men strong by the time of Nikephorus II) would put the total at 1,500 cavalry. The same Anonymous Vari (c. 980) says that when on campaign the Emperor would be accompanied by a minimum of 8,200 cavalrymen which would give a minimum of roughly 2,000 per regiment.
Included in the Tagmata  were the Numeri (4,000) and Hetairia, infantry formations permanently based in  Constantinople perhaps as the permanent garrison of the City.
It wouldn't be unusual for detachments of the Tagmata to serve in the provinces; we know, i.e., that provincial detachments commanded by Topotiretes (Domesticos' lieutenents) were posted  in Macedonia, Thrace and the Opsikion  (the area across the straits from Constantinople) theme.

--The Varangian  Guard
"Varangian" was used to generally describe men from the North. It might derive from the old Nordic "var, meaning pledge, used to describe  a band of men bount together by oaths of loyalty and sharing of the booty among them. Rus troops were sent as tributary contingents after the Russ defeat and abortive attack on the City in the 860's, but were not instituted as a regular unit in Byzantine pay untill 988 when Basil II received 6,000 from the Prince of Kiev; these troops were proved to be such fierce fighters and so loyal (according to Psellus Basil "distrusted the treacherous disposition of the Romans themselves") that Basil established them as his bodyguard. In the years immediately following Hastings an increasing number of Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Danes seem to have migrated South and mixed with the original Nordic element of the Guard.
The commander of the Varangians had his own title in the Byzantine ceremonial, that of Ak-o-louthos, Acolyte or "Follower" denoting his great proximity to the Emperor. We have the namesof several Akolouthoi such as Ragnald, an 11th c. Swede, whose tombstone describes as "the leader of the war-troop in the land of the Greeks" and Nampites, Akolouthos in the 1080s, a Scandinavian nickname for "Biter of Corpses" or "Bird of Prey". Another famous Varangian-though never an Akolouthos- was Harald Haraldra who held a senior rank in the Guard and commanded 500 men.

more on the Theme system etc to follow

Note: all this information has come exclusively from Ian Heath's and Angus McBride's "Byzantine Armies, 886-1118" part of Osprey's "Men-at-Arms Series".


Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:18
i am really glad that discussion for Byzantium is on fire !Smile
I participated in "Byzantium Total War" ,and i assure you that the research work there was really good.
The lack of skinners and modellers was partially cause of the high specification of the mod (only "byzantinists" and few Bulgarians were really interested(!)).
I hope there will be great job on MTRealism.
Unfortunately these days i have almost zero time for new research.

The list of BTW units is accurate.

I have some objections in your list Nestorian.
1st.I think "Tagmatic" refers to army of the Capital.Its the opposite of "Thematic".
Themata and Tagmata are different military units,so "thematic tagmatic" is oxymoron.

2nd:U must chosse:either to create units according to the real military division(ex the different tagmatic units) or according to their armament-type (klibanarioi,kataphraktoi etc.).
(for ex. Ikanatoi were klibanarioi,so there cant be both "clibanarioi" and "ikanatoi")

Anyway,your effort is really nice!
Glory of Romani'a rises up again !ClapSmile


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:50
Nestorian,
 
If the list is strictly between 1066 1118, neither Druzhina fit in that period. I made a research and it seems the last time they were used in Byzantine army, was 1054.  This was the year, Yaroslav the wise died and his successors stopped providing mercenaries to Byzantines.
 
Konstantinius,
 
Scholai were initially twelve. Among them, five were solely for the Western and seven for the Eastern part of the empire. Each one had a number of 500 men called Scholarioi.
 
 


-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 17:21
Nestorian, themes in time of peace were commanded by the civilian head (Dux, Doukas) and the military (Strategos). In times of war or other crisis the Strategos assumed overall command of the entire theme.


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 17:26
Digeni,
Clibanarii was more of a weapon designation than the name of a particular unit. Both Tagmatic and Thematic cavalry units had a detachment of heavy, shock cavalry (Klivaviof-o-roi)  including, as you correctly point out, the Ikanatoi.


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 17:34
Rider,

Tagma ton Varangion means "the Tagma of the Varangians". The reference pertains to the Varangian Guard obviously, I'm not sure whether the Varangians were actually part of the Tagmata. Interesting reference.


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 19:17
Nestorian,about your list:
Byzantine titles and names are very confusing because they change meaning over the centuries, Emperor invent similar-sounding new titles,  and territory and the military shrink as the Empire declines (i.e,  titles become obsolete in later years).  You have collected an amazing amalgam of names, a lot of which  I'm not sure about .  I'll go down your list and try to do my best

--Basilikon vs. Basilikoi: basically the same thing, one is the plural of the other. The header sentence should look like this:
Basilikos Tagmatikos Hippeas (singular)
Basilikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis (plural), not Basilikos Tagmatikoi Hippeis.

Clivanoforos means the "wearer of the klibanio--the heavy, quilted armor for horse and rider". Immediatelly below in terms of heaviness of armor and quality of equipment would  the kataphraktos  (kataphraktoi  plural), "all-armored".   Last the kavalarios (oi), "horse-mounting", with lamellar/scale corselet, shield, sword, mace, bow/arrow,dagger. The light-armed cavalryman (no armor, a few throwing spears, one long, round shield, sword) was called a Trapezitos (oi). This was native light cavalry raised when needed and would not have been part of the prestigious Tagmata.
I believe that every tagmatic unit would've comprised of different proportions of the first three classes and it's doubtful whether you should list Clibanophoroi under "Basilikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis" as its own category.

Not very certain about the infantry list;


post to be updated, please look back  


-------------
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 19:22
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

So do I use Hippeis or Kavallarioi???
 
Kavallarioi (plural) is the Greek word that was specifically given to the Latin mercenary cavalry.  It is an appropriation of the Latin Caballarii (plural).  Hippeus (singular, hippeis: plural) is a more generalized Greek word for cavalry.  It does not really say anything about the type - light or heavily armed.
 
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

And is it Basilikon or Basilikoi?
 
This depends on the gender of the word it is describing.  Basilikon is describing a royal/imperial "thing," so it is neuter.  Basilikoi is describing some royal/imperial men (masculine).
 
Edit: Just noticed that our friend Konstantinius already filled us in on the Greek.  Good work! Smile
 
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

At Byzantine Emperor

 

Greetings Megalos Basileus!!

 

Varangians who did not make the Varangian Guard in the capital were sent to the provinces, probably to a Dux of a particular theme. There are mentions of Varangians in the provinces and not in the Emperors presence. Cant remember the source though.  L

 

Yep, logistics will be represented by military warehouses that requisition (by increasing revenue extracting power by the city). They also increase loyalty and public order penalties because of the unpopularity of requisitioning. Evil Protonotarios :P

Greetings!
 
About the Varangians, I can see how they would be sent to the provinces to assist the Dux or Kephale.  They would also be making the presence of the emperor known to deter rebellion.  What I was saying is that I don't think provincial officials were given their own Varangian bodyguard.  See if you can find the source.
 
What are some of the other buildings you are looking to add?  It will be interesting to see what you come up with for blacksmiths and armor-making centers.  This is something that interests me greatly, especially in the late period, where there is scant mentioning of blacksmiths and technology in the sources.  Check out my thread on the subject here (I include a list of sources):
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13309 - Byzantine Metalworking (all periods)
 


-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 20:38
@Konstantinius
My Greek is none existent, so I expect people to correct which is the case in this thread which I'm happy about. :D I know titles change often, but because of the restrictions of the game script/code, we can't change these titles often.
 
Also keep in mind such titles changes can be due to political decline and lack of resources to maintain particular units, but since this is a game where you can change of history and where because of political strength and ample resources, one can retain units who were historically extinct or changed into another unit. That is the precarious balance for our modification team: historical accuracy and integrating options for "what ifs" while still staying historically conservative.
 
I included the Klibs as under the Imperial Tagmata because the sheer cost of equipment meant that like the other Imperial Tagmata troops, they were equipped by the central government who were likely to provide the best equipment.
 
@Byzantine EMperor
Oh ok gotcha, lol, I never had in mind the provincial VG's as provincial official's own VG. Only as provincial detachments to the themes under a provincial official rather than on a personal basis.


-------------
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

Also keep in mind such titles changes can be due to political decline and lack of resources to maintain particular units, but since this is a game where you can change of history and where because of political strength and ample resources, one can retain units who were historically extinct or changed into another unit. That is the precarious balance for our modification team: historical accuracy and integrating options for "what ifs" while still staying historically conservative.
 
I think with military units the names were consistent with the unit's function and armament.  Klibanophoroi and Kataphraktoi were the heavily-armed cavalry from their inception to whenever they died out (this is debatable).  The Pronoiar cavalry took over as a medium-heavily armed cavalry, though probably not as heavy as the previous two.
 
Infantry and archers had their own specialized names that pretty much reflected their uses and armament.  In the later period they took on names that reflected their ethnicities.
 
Where we see a detachment of names from their functions is in the case of certain military titles.  We discussed many examples of these in my late Byzantine military thread.
 
For the game I think it will be great to bring the element of "what-if" into the overall historical accuracy.  I can't wait to conquer the New World with the Byzantines in MTW2!  Big smile
 
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

I included the Klibs as under the Imperial Tagmata because the sheer cost of equipment meant that like the other Imperial Tagmata troops, they were equipped by the central government who were likely to provide the best equipment.
 
Yes, and correctly so.  Nikephoros Phokas enacted a series of land reforms whereby the allotments of the Theme cavalry were increased to allow them to upgrade to and maintain heavier armor.  These new cavalrymen served as the basis for the heavy tagmatic cavalry, I believe.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 02:26

I love Klibs, I can't wait to show u guys a series of concepts I've done for them and also for the Basilikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis (I'll use Basilikoi then, its great to clear that bit up, I was very unsure of which rendering to use).

I'll check the metalworking part today.
 
As for whether the Varangians were part of the Tagmata? I think they would as Tagmata were the professional elements of the Byzantine army, and thus would be considered a Tagmata or if translated to Greek, a "body", but a professional elite "body" so to speak.
 
If I recall correctly, the Varangians did not exactly have "Varangian Guard" as a description of their corps. What would u guys consider a more appropiate title descriptor?
 
Rider suggested:
Tagma ton Varangoi
 
I recommended :
Varangoi Hetaeraeia
Varangoi Pelekephoroi
 
 
I like the title of Hetaeraeia as that was the title of another Tagmata called the "Hetaeraeia and described as companions of the Emperor because of their proximity to the Emperor. It seems the Varangians have become the new "Hetaeraeia" of the Byzantines.
 
By the way, the Byzantine will be called "Basileia Rhomaion" in the game, I use the term "Byzantine" because its just convenient :P
 
Im glad you like the balance of "realism" and "what if",  I was afraid people were going to hate it.
 
Although, I am going to develop a system where you still recruit historical late period Byzantine troops if ur empire is not as strong or declining. But to recruit the 'what if" troops, you reach a certain level of political strength and financial strength.
 
I already have a concept of intriguiing "what if" units, not 100% sure of implementing it but fun to imagine on paper. :D


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 03:13
Konstantinos, I'd prefer if you'd not post five or six posts in a row, but rather incorporate them into a single one.

-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:54
Byzantine sources used words that are non-existant or not used anymore in modern greek language.
 
Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus prefered in his accounts, the word Kavallarikoi instead of  Kavallarioi. The word Kavallarikoi is not used anymore in Greek.
 
Kataphraktoi were called in a few sources, such as the one of the historian Leo the Diakon (deacon)  Pansidiroi Hippotes. Neither the latter is used in modern greek. 
 
Quote
Rider suggested:
Tagma ton Varangoi
 
I recommended :
Varangoi Hetaeraeia
Varangoi Pelekephoroi
 
In order to be accurate in greek language, the first one should be, 'Tagma ton Varangon'.
 
The second should be 'Hetaeria ton Varangon' and the last one as it is.


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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 07:21
What does Hetaireia ton Varangon translate to?
 
Companions of the Varangians? Companions from the Varangians?
 
Jus curious
 
And what is "Eidikon"?? is it a bank of some kind?
 
 
 


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 10:18
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

What does Hetaireia ton Varangon translate to?
 
Companions of the Varangians? Companions from the Varangians?
 
Jus curious
 
And what is "Eidikon"?? is it a bank of some kind?
 
 
 
 
You could translate it as Companion/fellowship of Varangians.
 
Eidikon has the meaning of special/expert. It depends on the use.


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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 11:04
On the kavallarioi/hippeis matter:

Its obviously just a matter of language used by different sources.
Both mean "cavalry men".
Hippeis is the most ancient/formal type ,used gy scholars-Kavallarioi is the most common and popular during middle ages.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 12:07
Lol, I'll stick with Hippeis then since its an archaic term and Byzantines just LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE archaicizing their descriptions......
 
As for the Varangians, I think I'm using "Varangoi Pelekephoroi" because "Pelekephoroi" was a vernacular term in the sources in describing their use of axes (and yes, i know they used other weapons so don
't bother reminding me about it), and I'm not making variants of Varangian units with different weapons, it would really be  a waste of unit limits in the MTW2 hardcode limits. It would nice to use Hetaereia but 'Pelekephoroi" was a more common term.
 
As for Eidikon, it is used in conjunction with a particular institution for releasing and keeping funds in a themata and is related to resource management for expeditions and campaigning armies.
I'm guessing its a bank of some kind because of such usage.


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 03:48
"Pelekyphoroi" means "axe-bearing". There is reference to the Varangians in some Greek  sources as the "axe-bearing barbarians".

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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 14:50
Nestorian, have you read LotR? And do you have any more online-pictures? To make these two questions similiar, do you have any LotR drawings?
 
 


-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 00:29
Thematikoi Hoplitai
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoihoplitaifm0.jpg - http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoihoplitaifm0.jpg

The thematic infantry in this time period is in dire straits. Deprived of sustenance and their pay, they have been allowed to decay. However, while being ignored, these infantrymen have kept themselves busy on their lands as farmers. Their physique is maintained through hunting and hard labour. They carry a spear, shield and sword as basic equipment. IN fact, they are lucky if they have even these three together.

http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoitagmatikoihoplitaiandthematikoitoxotaiwe9.jpg - http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoitagmatikoihoplitaiandthematikoitoxotaiwe9.jpg

The Skoutatoi in the top left corner represents the majority of the heavy infantry of Byzantium. Leather/padded corselets and leather/felt caps are commonly used as defensive panoply. For weapons they carry a kontos (4-4.5metres though not portrayed in the drawing), a spatha and a kite-shaped shield.

The Skoutatoi at the bottom represents the heavy infantry that ideally equipped according to the sources. He wears a Klibanion of banded lamellar with pteruges and a lamellar plates covering his upper arm. For his limbs he wears the common splinted type. His helmet is a simply construction with a mail aventail hood attached to it.

THe archer iin the top right corner represents purposefully trained and recruited archers. Again, represented ideally if the equipment is available. He wears padded armour and is equipped with a composite bow, quiver, spatha, handaxe and a small shield. His helmet is of leather construction with padded aventail.
 
http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imaginarykataphraktoixs7.jpg - http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imaginarykataphraktoixs7.jpg

Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun
 
And no I dont have any LOTR stuff :p


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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 15:04
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun
 
But these ideas might be used for the "what-if" aspect of the mod!  If theoretically you play the game right and Byzantium lives on into the late 15th and early 16th centuries, we need to think what the military units might look like and from where they derive influence. 
 
In the late period, for all we know, the kataphraktoi might have survived in one form or another.  If they did survive, there could be several possibilities as to what they wore and were armed with.
 
Perhaps the kataphraktoi of the late period were the kavallarioi.  In this case they would have a heavy Western influence or would be Western European themselves.  The latter is more likely since they were Latin mercenaries or Byzantinized Latins.  The Eastern influence on heavy cavalry is less likely, since the Turks had mostly light-armed cavalry and horse archers.  If they were influenced by the East in armor, it would probably be from the Mongols.  Some 14th and 15th century icon representations show soldiers wearing plate half-armor in the Mongol style.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 22:18
bump* Byz. Emp. chek ur PM

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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Red4tribe
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 22:15
The Byzantine Military was the strongest in the Mederteranian region during this time period.The succusefully conquered virtually the entire coast of the sea by 565 AD.The military went into decline untill the Macedonian dynasty when BasilII led the emprie to it's greatest hight in 500 years.After that the Military ent into a slow decline untill 1453 when they were conquered.

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Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

George Washington - March 15, 1783



Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 23:54
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun
 
But these ideas might be used for the "what-if" aspect of the mod!  If theoretically you play the game right and Byzantium lives on into the late 15th and early 16th centuries, we need to think what the military units might look like and from where they derive influence. 
 
In the late period, for all we know, the kataphraktoi might have survived in one form or another.  If they did survive, there could be several possibilities as to what they wore and were armed with.
 
Perhaps the kataphraktoi of the late period were the kavallarioi.  In this case they would have a heavy Western influence or would be Western European themselves.  The latter is more likely since they were Latin mercenaries or Byzantinized Latins.  The Eastern influence on heavy cavalry is less likely, since the Turks had mostly light-armed cavalry and horse archers.  If they were influenced by the East in armor, it would probably be from the Mongols.  Some 14th and 15th century icon representations show soldiers wearing plate half-armor in the Mongol style.
 
What about the Influence from Pecheneg Cuman and Bulgarian Heavy Cavalry.


Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 10:51
They did find a face mask in area of the Byzantine Great Palace complex in Istanbul, its undated but it resembles kind of face masks Cumans wore.

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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 23:25
Viking lords (for lack of a better term) would sometimes act as imperial gaurds for Byzantine Emperors. My questions are as follow.

1. Did the Vikings adopt Byzantine tactics or ideologies about fighting battles?

2. What were the impressions of these Vikings in literature and public opinion (this might be hard to tell since there are no gallup polls from the time)?



Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 11:50
Perhaps commander would be a better word?



-------------
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 16:13
"Lord" is generic and works just fine. Many of them would probably have answered to the title "Jarl/Earl", but there were all kinds of funny titles used in Scandinavia at that time so there's no guarantee. Besides, the majority of the Vikings in Byzantine imperial guard service were hardly noblemen.

King John, to answer your first question; the Vikings fought in their own particular manner with shield and a long-shafted, bearded battle-ax, sometimes refered to as a "Danish axe". But of course, ideally they'd follow the overall strategy of the Byzantine supreme command, which no doubt they did. When it comes to ideology, that's a rather vague term unless you say what exactly you mean by "Byzantine ideologies about fighting battles", if you're talking about the religious aspect then both yes and no; some Vikings converted to Christianity while some didn't, but as time went on I'd expect them all to be more or less Christian.

The image of the Varangians among the Byzantines seems to have been two-sided; on one hand they were acknowledged as loyal and capable bodyguards of the Emperor, on the other hand people whispered how they were also a bunch of wine-bags. IIRC, "The Emperor's Wine-Bags" was a common byword for the Varangian Guards.

I sugges that all who are interested in the part played by the Varangian Guard in Byzantine history read up on Basil II's reign, especially his rise to power and defeat of Bardas Phocas' navy.

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Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.


Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 17:47
Can you give me any information about the Apelatai?

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"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 00:05
And while anyone else is at it can I get some information on the Stratiotai as well? It is a special unit in Rise of Nations


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 11:53
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

And while anyone else is at it can I get some information on the Stratiotai as well? It is a special unit in Rise of Nations
 
I don't think there is much historical accuracy in the Stratiotai unit in Rise of Nations.  In the medieval age the Greeks get Companion Cavalry, which is strictly a designation for units in ancient times under Alexander.  The Stratiotai appear in the gunpowder and enlightenment ages as heavily armored knights, in plate armor nonetheless.
 
Of course, the Greek word stratiotai became a generic term for soldiers in the Byzantine period.  They were not of any particular type or use.  You can make distinctions, however, based on the method by which the soldier was remunerated. 
 
In the Komnenian period, some soldiers received payment in military lands - stratiotika ktemata.  In return they were obligated to perform military service - strateia.  A further distinction was made between the man who owned the military land and the person who performed the service.  Eventually, however, the strateia was converted into a military tax which the obligee payed instead of serving.  Some scholars believe pronoia arose out of the fiscalization of the strateia tax.  See Haldon and Bartusis' books for more detailed information.
 
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

Can you give me any information about the Apelatai?
 
Haldon mentions that, in the middle period, the Apelatai were regular thematic soldiers who were drafted into the regular army because of their poor financial status.  They are often associated with borderland skirmishes where they gained a reputation for operating like "bandits." 
 
John Haldon. Warfare, State and Society in the Byzantine World, 565-1204. London: UCL Press, 1999.
 
Mark C. Bartusis, The Late Byzantine Army: Arms and Society, 1204-1453. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1992.


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 18:46
Thanks so much Byz for enlightening me on that subject that has been plauging me for some time now!


Posted By: Arm-Legionary
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 03:33
Smbat Minasyan www.armenian-hstory.com

I wrote article about Armenian legions in Roman Army

Also I'd like to share  my information with you and be more informed  about this issue
 

Armenian First Legion

"Legio  Armeniaca" translated from Latin as "Armenian Legion" and "prima" as "first". Armenian First Legion was one of the later period Roman empire legions. This Legion is mentioned in the late-antique text known as Notitia Dignitatum. Most Likely that  Armenian First Legion was formed in 2nd or 3rd  centuries A.D. in Western part of Armenia and had mission to protect that Armenian lands from intrusion. It should first have been the garrison of Armenian lands which had been under the control of Roman Empire.

Armenian First Legion took part in the ill-fated Persian campaign of the emperor Julianus Apostata  in 363.

I think Armenian First Legion wasn't destroyed in 363, and later came a part of Byzantine army.

 

 Armenian Second Legion

Armenian Second Legion like Armenian First legion was one of the later period Roman empire legions. This legion also mentioned in the Notitia Dignitatum. Armenian Second Legion probably was created at the end of 3rd century or in the beginning of 4th century. Armenian Second legion had a permanent camp in one of the Northern provinces of the Orient. This legion built a camp in Satala. Armenian Second legion is furthermore mentioned in the year 360 as a part of the garrison of Bezabda (anciently called Phoencia) at the upper Tigris. In Bezabda Armenian Second Legion served together with Legions Parthica and II Flavia. In 390 Bezabda were taken by the Persians and a terrible bloodbath was held under the inhabitants and garrison. Nevertheless the legion seems to have survived this battle, because it appears in Notitia Dignitatum which have been written in 5th century.

Later on Armenian Second legion became a part of Byzantine army.



Posted By: Jeroen72
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2007 at 11:37
Hi there,
 
Images from:
 
The Eastern Romans 330-1461 AD By Raffaele D'Amato and Giorgio Albertini - put out by Concord Publications
 
 
http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter01ra7.jpg - http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter01ra7.jpg
 
 
 
http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter02gg9.jpg - http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter02gg9.jpg
 
 
http://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter03mp5.jpg - http://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter03mp5.jpg
 
 
http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter04justinianoy6.jpg - http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter04justinianoy6.jpg
 
 
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter05fo8.jpg - http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ter05fo8.jpg
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:26
Who was Gainas and what battle did he die at?

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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Jeroen72
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 11:52
Gainas:
 
Gainas was an ambitious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths - Gothic leader who served the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Roman_Empire - Eastern Roman Empire during the reigns of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I - Theodosius I and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadius - Arcadius .

Gainas began his military career as a common foot-soldier, but later commanded the barbarian contingent of Theodosius' army against the usurper Eugene in 394. In 395, he combined his forces with those of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilicho - Stilicho and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius - Eutropius to bring about the fall of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufinus - Rufinus . In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/399 - 399 he replaced the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister_Militum - Magister Militum Leo after the latter failed to put down invasions led by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic - Ostrogothic chieftain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribigild - Tribigild . Gainas too failed to put down the invasions, although he blamed his failure on Eastern Roman Emperor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadius - Arcadius ' palace chamberlain (cubicularius) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius - Eutropius , whom he had executed.

Frustrated further by his inability to control the situation, Gainas ordered the removal of more ministers. Gainas' compromises with Tribigild led to rumors that he had colluded with his fellow Goth and, when he returned to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople - Constantinople in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/400 - 400 , riots broke out and 7,000 of his fellow Goths were murdered by the populace who had been incited to action by the Empress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxia - Eudoxia .

In response, Gainas and his forces attempted to flee back across the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellespont - Hellespont , but their rag-tag fleet was met and destroyed by a third Gothic chieftain, Fravitta. After this battle, Gainas and his few remaining forces were caught by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns - Huns under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uldin - Uldin while trying to escape north of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube - Danube . Gainas was killed and his head was sent by Uldin to Arcadius ca. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/400 - 400 as a gift.

(from wikipedia)



Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 20:50
Thank you.

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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."


Posted By: Saber
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:57

I have a question about the importance of Anatolia to the Byzantines.

On most forums, I have seen people emphasis the importance of Anatolia, especially in terms of manpower and economy.
 
But isn't this a little overestimated?
The Byzantine Empire was largely agriculturally orientated, possesing little or almost no Urban elements. Yet from what I read, Anatolia is pretty poor itself, apart from certain coasts. It's economy is based around sheep, cattle, maybe goats? I'm not sure, but I heard that the mineral resources have been exhausted there by the medieval times.
 
Further Anatolia is made up of mainly hot dry "hills", inhabited by a population which did not identify itself as Greek, and owing no real "patriotic" alliegiance to Byzantium. So was the loss of Anatolia so terrible to the Empire?(The people there might have been rough "warlike" hillsmen, but the Empire could not rely on them)
 
Another question is: I read a rather general and very vague statement from a historian, that the Byzantines populace(Especially in the inner lands of the Empire) still held "pacifistic" Early Christian views, and in such sort of pacifistic culture the people were reluctant to take arms, and thats why Byzantium never developed a sort of popular(i.e people's) military tradition. How accurate is this statement?
 
 
 


Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 22:29

"Greekdom" was not the unifying factor of the "Byzantine" Empire, there were numerous Emperors that weren't exactly "Greek." The Empire was based on Romannes, Romanitas if you will, and all could partake if they were Christian, and part of the "Byzantine" cultural sphere.

All agrarianate level societies have a huge reliance upon agriculture as a staple industry. However, that does not omit any city based societal aspects to the Empire as well.
 
Refer to Marshal Hodgson for a good overview of agrarianate level societies.
 
The Anatolian peninsula was the chief recruiting ground for the Empire, just like Illyria used to be centuries before that. The terrain, and the conditions provided a tough environment, and good conditioning perfect for soldiers. Illyria is much the same omit dryness.
 
 


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Posted By: vladzo2
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:15
Originally posted by Perseas Perseas wrote:

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:




Some infos about Themata units. During 6th century according to the Strategikon of Maurice, a thema unit had two divisions called "Meri" with highest number of troops 16.384.

 

The subvisions are:

- 'Phalangarchia' (sp?) 8,192 highest number of men

- 'Merarchia' 4,096 men

- 'Chiliarchia'

- 'Pentakosiarchia'

- 'Sintagma'

- 'Taksi'

- 'Tetrarchia'

- 'Dilochia'

- 'Lochos'





to perseas :::::::::::::::::::::

mathematicaly this would continue as ;
chiliarchia - 2,048
pentakosiarchia - 1,024
sintagma - 512
taksi - 256
tetrarchia - 128
dilochia - 64
lochos -32

however, linguisticaly this seems incorrect. as far as i remember greek, chilia is 1,000; and a chiliarchia would be the rule of 1,000. penta has to do with 5, or 50, or perhaps even 500; but not 1,000. the rest of the words are greek to me; except for lochos, or locharchia which i belive was 16, or two lines of 8 with a leader called a locharkos and subleader call an ouragos. or was that ancient greek.

?what do you (perseas) know about that? or what does any one know.

vladzo


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:35
That picture with the man holding the Dacian Draco, that's interesting. I know units from around the black sea were called "scythians" though thats a generic term.


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2008 at 02:17
Can anyone tell me when the byzantine army first started to use stirrups?

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2008 at 02:24
As far as I know, there isn't any definitive battle or instance where stirrups were introduced, in the source record. I believe they first started to use them towards the end of the 6th century. Because they are meant to have adopted the stirrup from the Avars, and Emperor Maurice campaigned against them in the 580s in the Balkans, that is when they would have been introduced on a large scale.


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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2008 at 02:51
Okay thanks BTW would they have had them around say the six thirties? and what non-metal stirrups?

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2008 at 02:54
The Byzantines used stirrups in the Battle of Yarmuk, which was in 636. And what do you mean by the second part? Wooden stirrups were also used, as well as metal ones. I'm not too sure of the time of transition, sorry.

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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2008 at 02:56
I'm sorry Knights I meant the five thirties around the days of Comites Flavius Belisarius

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Ahenobarbus
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 19:23
There is not any evidence (to my knowledge, anyway) of the Byzantines using stirrups at that time.  It cannot be said either way.  It seems that the dominant view among scholars is that the Avars introduced stirrups to the area in the late 6th century.


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 00:43
Originally posted by Ahenobarbus Ahenobarbus wrote:

There is not any evidence (to my knowledge, anyway) of the Byzantines using stirrups at that time.  It cannot be said either way.  It seems that the dominant view among scholars is that the Avars introduced stirrups to the area in the late 6th century.


It is speculated that the stirrup originated in India as early as 500 B.C as well. Although the "stirrup" was designed to hold only the big toe.


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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 04:36
^ Ouch

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 20:49
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

^ Ouch
 
Ouch what?  Isn't it possible that the Avars were part of a chain through which the technology filtered, either from India or some other place as the origin?  You do understand that Byzantium is in a different location than India, I think.
 


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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 21:49
Ouch that would hurt to have your big toe in a loop 

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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Jallaludin Akbar
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 23:43
Why would anyone design a stirrup that would only hold your big toe but not your foot?

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"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-Mahatma Gandhi



Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 00:45
Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

Why would anyone design a stirrup that would only hold your big toe but not your foot?


It was effective. Why would the foot have to be used?


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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 01:01
How effective was it?
 
Using the foot allows you to brace yourself and put more weight in the saddle


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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)




Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 01:14
Im guessing it would allow more mobility. Perhaps on a large manufacturing scale it would cost less.

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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 02:52
Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

Why would anyone design a stirrup that would only hold your big toe but not your foot?


How would you design a modern stirrup out of nowhere if you had no example nor knowledge of what that is. It usually takes evolution for something to become a finalized product. Plus if it was effective and practical there is no reason not to use it.


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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 15:51
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa Darius of Parsa wrote:

Im guessing it would allow more mobility. Perhaps on a large manufacturing scale it would cost less.
 
LOLLOLLOL Have you ever ridden? Okay you put your toe in little loop on a big horse and the get the horse into a trot yeah it will allow so much moblility that your toes will get pulled  


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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)





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