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Zheng Chenggong

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
Moderators: Leonidas, Sarmat12, King Kang of Mu
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=10551
Printed Date: 21-Dec-2014 at 15:02


Topic: Zheng Chenggong
Posted By: Sino Defender
Subject: Zheng Chenggong
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2006 at 21:31
how did the army under ming general Zheng Chenggong of the already collapsed ming dynasty manage to capture taiwan from the dutch?

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"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"



Replies:
Posted By: Sino Defender
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2006 at 04:11
how come no one writes in this part of the forum anymore?

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"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2006 at 05:54
Originally posted by Sino Defender

how come no one writes in this part of the forum anymore?


The forum has cycles of high activity and then complete silence.  We're just in the silent curve.

As for your general, is he the one with the reputed iron soldiers?


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Posted By: Sino Defender
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2006 at 06:24

Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

Originally posted by Sino Defender

how come no one writes in this part of the forum anymore?


The forum has cycles of high activity and then complete silence.  We're just in the silent curve.

As for your general, is he the one with the reputed iron soldiers?

i dunno what u mean by iron soliders.

he was the ming loyalist who fled to taiwan to fight against the manchu after the collapse of his military stronghold in fujian province.



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"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"


Posted By: Omnipotence
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2006 at 14:52

Here's a good thread on it.

 

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5174&st=0 - http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5174&am p;st=0



Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2006 at 22:28

Originally posted by Sino Defender

how did the army under ming general Zheng Chenggong of the already collapsed ming dynasty manage to capture taiwan from the dutch?

I have a feeling that Dutch military presence in the then Formosa was not particularly strong. While the Dutch did see the value of Formosa, thanks to its strategic location on the silk and silver trade route between China and Japan, I think they were never really as interested in Formosa as in the East Indies. (Don't forget that prior to their annexation of Formosa, the Dutch were beaten off by even the tiny Portuguese army in their attack of Macao in 1622.) One also has to remember that the Dutch conquest of Formosa (and subsequently of Java) represents "old" European imperialism which was driven by mercantilism and motivated by "gold, glory, and gospel"; in other words, it's much less sophisticated and much smaller in scale than the "new imperialism" exemplified by that of the British and the French.  

The major fortress built by the Dutch to defend their territorial claim to Formosa, Fort Zeelandia, was poorly chosen location wise because it lacked adequate supplies of fresh water. Moreover, the Dutch were never really able to develop enough infrastructure on the island to allow it to become more self-sufficient. Supplies and reinforcements had to be regularly shipped from Batavia (Jarkarta, Java).

When Zheng Chenggong with its 25,000 strong army attacked Fort Zeelandia, there were only 2000 Dutch soldiers guarding the fortress. During the 9-month siege of the fortress, supplies from Batavia halted and the fortress finally ran out of water. There were no other options for the Dutch but to surrender.



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Posted By: babyblue
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 05:04
   A reinforcement from other Dutch colonies in SE Asia would be nice...maybe they just didn't give a $%#

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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 20:33

Originally posted by babyblue

   A reinforcement from other Dutch colonies in SE Asia would be nice...maybe they just didn't give a $%#

When the Dutch got kicked out by the Ming naval and troop forces (in 1662), there were only two significant Dutch settlements in the "East Indies" - Batavia (Jarkarta, Java) and Malacca (Malaya). The Dutch only captured  Achem (Acheh), the native kingdom in Sumatra in 1667, Macassar in 1669, and Bantam in 1682.  Having said that, the Dutch East India Company (Dutch: Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie or VOC) had been set up much earlier (1602) before they established a commercial base on Formosa.



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Posted By: Shigintang
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 02:15
Originally posted by Sino Defender

how did the army under ming general Zheng Chenggong of the already collapsed ming dynasty manage to capture taiwan from the dutch?


By the way, Zheng was a half-Japanese guy, as Emperor Yong Le was a half-Korean.


Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 06:27
Originally posted by Shigintang

Originally posted by Sino Defender

how did the army under ming general Zheng Chenggong of the already collapsed ming dynasty manage to capture taiwan from the dutch?


By the way, Zheng was a half-Japanese guy, as Emperor Yong Le was a half-Korean.


It was only spectulated that Emperor Yongle was half-Korean.  We do not know the true birth mother of Yongle.  Yongle could have been sired by a Korean concubine, but that is not certain.  Another theory says that Yongle was the son of a Mongol concubine captured during the sack of Dadu - although this is highly unlikely.  For legitimacy, Yongle himself claimed that he was the son of Empress Ma, which is also unlikely because Empress Ma did not sire any of the major princes of the time.


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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           


Posted By: bigtoothbrush
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 07:15
i bet there must be people jump out and claim that mao was half- some several hundred years later.


Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 07:32
Oh, btw, Yongle did have a taste for hundreds of Korean virgins.  That is the main reason a few history amateurs think his mother was a Korean concubine sent as tribute.  But it cannot be substantiated, and there are thousands of guesses to the real birth mother of Yongle.  Besides the Korean and Mongol theories, a few others think that Yongle's birth mother was a wife executed by Zhu Yuanzhang for adultery, years before Zhu Yuangzhang ascended the throne.

Here are the main reasons behind each Yongle conspiracy theory:

1, Korean mother = Yongle and his father both enjoyed deflowering Korean virgins.  This theory is quite flamboyant, but lacks substantial evidence.

2, Mongol mother = Yongle looked like a Mongol, had a non-confucianist, aggressive disposition, and enjoyed horse riding and archery.  The Mongol concubine in this theory is Wong Fei, which is a sinicized name of a Mongolian concubine of Tolun Temur captured in 1368.  Some point out that the Mongol concubine was already pregnant before capture, and pretended that the new born baby was sired by Zhu Yuanzhang.  The flaw to this theory is timing: Yongle died in his sixties in 1424, making him at least four years old in 1368, when the Mongol concubine was captured by Ming troops.

3, Minor Southern Chinese concubine = this is probably the most accurate theory.  Zhu Yuanzhang had many concubines, and most of his princes were sired by minor concubines.  Yongle's mother could have been a concubine in times before Zhu Yuanzhang proclaimed himself emperor, and could have been killed by Zhu as a punishment for adultery - hence Yongle's reluctance to reveal his real birth mother.

4. Empress Ma = this is definitely not the case, since Empress Ma, the legitimate first wife of Zhu Yuanzhang, did not sire Yongle.  I am positive on this.  Yongle, however, claimed that he was sired by Empress Ma to claim legitmacy to the throne.


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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           


Posted By: Dayanhan
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:26

Originally posted by poirot

Oh, btw, Yongle did have a taste for hundreds of Korean virgins.  That is the main reason a few history amateurs think his mother was a Korean concubine sent as tribute.  But it cannot be substantiated, and there are thousands of guesses to the real birth mother of Yongle.  Besides the Korean and Mongol theories, a few others think that Yongle's birth mother was a wife executed by Zhu Yuanzhang for adultery, years before Zhu Yuangzhang ascended the throne.

Here are the main reasons behind each Yongle conspiracy theory:

1, Korean mother = Yongle and his father both enjoyed deflowering Korean virgins.  This theory is quite flamboyant, but lacks substantial evidence.

2, Mongol mother = Yongle looked like a Mongol, had a non-confucianist, aggressive disposition, and enjoyed horse riding and archery.  The Mongol concubine in this theory is Wong Fei, which is a sinicized name of a Mongolian concubine of Tolun Temur captured in 1368.  Some point out that the Mongol concubine was already pregnant before capture, and pretended that the new born baby was sired by Zhu Yuanzhang.  The flaw to this theory is timing: Yongle died in his sixties in 1424, making him at least four years old in 1368, when the Mongol concubine was captured by Ming troops.

3, Minor Southern Chinese concubine = this is probably the most accurate theory.  Zhu Yuanzhang had many concubines, and most of his princes were sired by minor concubines.  Yongle's mother could have been a concubine in times before Zhu Yuanzhang proclaimed himself emperor, and could have been killed by Zhu as a punishment for adultery - hence Yongle's reluctance to reveal his real birth mother.

4. Empress Ma = this is definitely not the case, since Empress Ma, the legitimate first wife of Zhu Yuanzhang, did not sire Yongle.  I am positive on this.  Yongle, however, claimed that he was sired by Empress Ma to claim legitmacy to the throne.

One recent Chinese researcher made it clear that the "Tai Chang Si (Department of Imperial Family Tombs and Ancestry)" records (of Ming) inside Empress Ma's tomb interestingly, and shcokingly, has the name of "Gong Fei (Korean concubine)" for Yong Le's mother,  instead of Empress Ma.

Several other high level officers during Ming era in charge of this tomb (and thus had access to the secret records) also recorded the same, which caused "great shock" to them. This has been kept secret until recently.

Thus, in the mean time, most scholars guessed Yong Le's mother was a Mongol (Queen of Ukhaantu Khaan, Shun Di), based on the "Origin of Indian, Tibet, Momgols Emperors".

However, it is clear that the facts were different based on the above, several different sources.   

Similar occasions are found in case of others. For example, Li Cheng Liang, the so-called Ming General Commander (Zong Guan of Lia Dong) and whose wife took Nurhachi and raised as if Nurhachi was her son (See "Manzhou Yuan Liu" and "(Xin) Qing Shi (Qing Shi Hui Gao)" : "Origin of the Manchus" and"(New) History of Qing (Total Collection thereof)" was a Korean.



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Veritas lux mea est!


Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:45

Please try to stick to the theme of the thread and avoid turning every thread into "so and so was Korean". It is getting extremely tiresome to the level of imbecility and lunancy.

Dayanhan, you should know better especially after you have received your first official warning. If I were you, I would either find something else better to talk about or leave our forum.

Any further violation, you will be banned from AE.



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Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 19:26
Originally posted by Shigintang

Originally posted by Sino Defender

how did the army under ming general Zheng Chenggong of the already collapsed ming dynasty manage to capture taiwan from the dutch?


By the way, Zheng was a half-Japanese guy, as Emperor Yong Le was a half-Korean.
 
This guy seems to be having an intention on degrading the Han Chinese.


Posted By: bigtoothbrush
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 20:30
probably he somehow have inferiority complex to the han chinese. 


Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 20:51
OK, guys, I think we all know the intentions of this particular forumer. The more we talk about him and his idiotic posts, the more we will encourage him. So let's either stick to the topic or start some interesting new threads. I am personally very tired of dealing with all the toxic crap that's been churned up by one person (and his clone) lately. I have been prevented from contributing to the forum in a positive way.  
 
Hopefully some of you guys will also learn a lesson - now that you've personally witnessed how idiotic the posts made by those with an ultranationalist and/or ethnocentric agenda are, please DON'T DO THAT YOURSELVES because in doing so, you will also be turned into such a pain in the a**, despised and hated by everyone. And I don't give a sh*t whether you are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Martian, or an android.
 
If you have doubts, please review AE's Code of Conduct for posting again and ask yourselves why you want to participate in AE in the first place.


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Posted By: intem
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 22:56
Originally posted by Shigintang

Originally posted by Sino Defender

how did the army under ming general Zheng Chenggong of the already collapsed ming dynasty manage to capture taiwan from the dutch?


By the way, Zheng was a half-Japanese guy, as Emperor Yong Le was a half-Korean.
 
Weird enough answer you gave there, there is simply not a single relevance to what we are talking about in this thread and please dont go off the topic young lad.


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J.T.I.J


Posted By: intem
Date Posted: 17-May-2006 at 23:02
Originally posted by flyingzone

Please try to stick to the theme of the thread and avoid turning every thread into "so and so was Korean". It is getting extremely tiresome to the level of imbecility and lunancy.

Dayanhan, you should know better especially after you have received your first official warning. If I were you, I would either find something else better to talk about or leave our forum.

Any further violation, you will be banned from AE.

 
lol it seems dayanhan is getting a bit annoyed simply his making every bit of statements about korean people related. By the way is this the reason why dayanhan got his first official warning from the other thread about King shun or yao or something i forgot.
 
What your doing now flyingzone is correct because this is a all empires chat forum not just trying to express out their personal like and everything he talks about is related to his personal opinion.
 
Also i apologise for been an idiot like dayanhan flyingzone, because i just saw the last post from you after i made my post.


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J.T.I.J



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