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altaic culture

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
Moderators: Temujin, Byzantine Emperor, Sarmat12
URL: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1030
Printed Date: 24-Jul-2014 at 21:01


Topic: altaic culture
Posted By: baya
Subject: altaic culture
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 07:47
can someone tell me about similarity in culture of turco-mongolian speaking people? 



Replies:
Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 05:50

The Turks are said to originate from the Altay Mountains, although evidence also shows that they also are from the surrounding areas such as central asia ( inc. Mongolia) and south sibiria. Due to the fact that the Turks and the Mongolians lived side by side it was invetable that they would be simalarities. This led to some cases of mixed marriages. This is the first similarity i.e Turks having Mongolian blood in them. Both the Turks and the Mongolians are from the Turanian peoples.

In reference to the simalarities in culture the  first is the language. Both Mongolian and Turkish is in the Altaic language family.

Secondly, The nomadic lifestyle. Both Turks and Mongolians have come from nomadic peoples. The nomadic lifestyle is still common practice among Mongolians. The Turks are no longer nomadic although there is still some Turks such as the Kazakh were there are still some who are nomadic.

The grey wolf (Bozkurt) is the patriotic animal for the Turks. This goes way back to the days of the GokTurks from central asia. Could you please tell me if the wolf is an important animal for Mongolians?



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"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"


Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 11:13
This is a good question for Ihsan - he's been busy at school but if he checks in - he'll have a wealth of information for you.

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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 05:35

Both the Turks and the Mongolians are from the Turanian peoples.

There isn't anything like "Turanian peoples", that's a non-existing imaginary thing made up by some Hungarian and Turkish extereme-nationalists.

can someone tell me about similarity in culture of turco-mongolian speaking people?

The Turkic peoples themselves have important differences between each other (similar to the Celtic peoples), but of course there are common Turkic things which make them all Turkic.

There are similarities in lifestyles, religions (Tengriism), languages and customs between Turkic and Mongolic peoples.

Could you please tell me if the wolf is an important animal for Mongolians?

Definitially yes.

The grey wolf (Bozkurt) is the patriotic animal for the Turks. This goes way back to the days of the GokTurks from central asia.

Actually, it goes back to the Gaoche peoples.

Mind that in Old Turkic, Boz Kurt was Kök Böri.



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Posted By: Hrodger
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 22:09
Were there similarities in heathenry? what was the name of the Gods?


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 05:29

Altaic people are very similar to each other. The only mentionable differences would be languages and the fact that turkics have large amount of caucasoid genes. Later on also religions became different. Otherwise, everything else is the same.



Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 09:37

Also the Mongolian alphabet is actually the original alpahbet of the Turks. When Genghis Han gained a large empire it was hard for him to control. To solve this problem he asked the Uygur Turks for the alphabet, as well as using many Uygurs Turks to sort out the administration of the empire.



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"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2004 at 05:28

I wonder if any other turkics beside uighurs ever really used that alphabet? It's a pity that uighurs dropped it though.



Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 01:21

Some Muslim Oghuz states like the Akkoyunlu had Oghuz Qaghan legend texts written and preserved in the Uyghur script as late as the 15th century.

Were there similarities in heathenry? what was the name of the Gods?

Yes, the name of the God was Tengri/Teñri (varities incluede Tenggeri, Tengger, etc).



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Posted By: Snafu
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 14:22

Originally posted by Hrodger

Were there similarities in heathenry? what was the name of the Gods?

Here's a good site that explains the religious beliefs of the ancient Turks.

http://www.hunmagyar.org/tatar/turk.html - http://www.hunmagyar.org/tatar/turk.html

The Mongols didn't differ all that much. Both groups worshipped the sky, the earth, the sun, the moon, the elements, and the ancestors.



Posted By: Turk
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 16:22
^Actually many Mongol factions accepted Islam. Such as the Golden Horde.

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Posted By: Grey Wolf
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 10:57
Originally posted by OSMANLI

The Turks are said to originate from the Altay Mountains, although evidence also shows that they also are from the surrounding areas such as central asia ( inc. Mongolia) and south sibiria. Due to the fact that the Turks and the Mongolians lived side by side it was invetable that they would be simalarities. This led to some cases of mixed marriages. This is the first similarity i.e Turks having Mongolian blood in them. Both the Turks and the Mongolians are from the Turanian peoples.

In reference to the simalarities in culture the  first is the language. Both Mongolian and Turkish is in the Altaic language family.

Secondly, The nomadic lifestyle. Both Turks and Mongolians have come from nomadic peoples. The nomadic lifestyle is still common practice among Mongolians. The Turks are no longer nomadic although there is still some Turks such as the Kazakh were there are still some who are nomadic.

The grey wolf (Bozkurt) is the patriotic animal for the Turks. This goes way back to the days of the GokTurks from central asia. Could you please tell me if the wolf is an important animal for Mongolians?



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The biggest disease of our time is knowledgeble ignorance


Posted By: Grey Wolf
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 11:01
But Turks belong to the Caucasian race not to Far Eastern Asian races which brings the Tocharian (Yueh Chi) element.

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The biggest disease of our time is knowledgeble ignorance


Posted By: Grey Wolf
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 11:04
Anyone about Tocharians and Turks??

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The biggest disease of our time is knowledgeble ignorance


Posted By: Dark Attila
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 09:18

Both the Turks and the Mongolians are from the Turanian peoples.

There isn't anything like "Turanian peoples", that's a non-existing imaginary thing made up by some Hungarian and Turkish extereme-nationalists.

This is absurd it's like me saying there's no such thing as Caucasian people, it's a non-existing imaginary thing...

No offense, but modern academia and historical interpretations are not always 100% accurate in their designations. The term Turán/Turáni (Turanian) are still in use in Hungary, and it's not ultra-extreme-nationalist! It is merely an older designation for Ural-Altaic Cultures and Peoples.  Turan is as valid as the word Iran, for example. So please don't make this into something it's not, like a political-propoganda issue!

 



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"Whomsoever chooses to deny his past cannot expect any future" -Old Hungarian Proverb


Posted By: Turk
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 12:02
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Also the Mongolian alphabet is actually the original alpahbet of the Turks. When Genghis Han gained a large empire it was hard for him to control. To solve this problem he asked the Uygur Turks for the alphabet, as well as using many Uygurs Turks to sort out the administration of the empire.

Actually the alphabet was made by Uygurs, and adopted by Mongolians I believe.



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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 17:11
Originally posted by Turk

Originally posted by OSMANLI

Also the Mongolian alphabet is actually the original alpahbet of the Turks. When Genghis Han gained a large empire it was hard for him to control. To solve this problem he asked the Uygur Turks for the alphabet, as well as using many Uygurs Turks to sort out the administration of the empire.

Actually the alphabet was made by Uygurs, and adopted by Mongolians I believe.

That's exactly what he said if you look closely.



Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 16:57
Hmmm...would you consider Korean as altaic?

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Grrr..


Posted By: Turk
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 22:18
Originally posted by Mustafa

Originally posted by Turk

Originally posted by OSMANLI

Also the Mongolian alphabet is actually the original alpahbet of the Turks. When Genghis Han gained a large empire it was hard for him to control. To solve this problem he asked the Uygur Turks for the alphabet, as well as using many Uygurs Turks to sort out the administration of the empire.

Actually the alphabet was made by Uygurs, and adopted by Mongolians I believe.

That's exactly what he said if you look closely.

Yes. I wanted to emphasize that Uygurs had an alphabet long before Ghengis Khan asked them for one.

-Caliph

I most definitely would not consider Koreans Altaic. I would most definitely consider the Japanese, especially the Ainu Japanese, Altaic. It's still highly debated whether or not Korean is Altaic at all.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 04:15
There is also great similarities between Turks and Mongols. For example both always wanted to rule east and west in their authority. Both invaded the western lands and both believed that the ruling responsibility of the east and the west was given to them by Tanrı (Tengri). But in fact, the Mongolian culture is derived from Turkic culture during the Hun rule. The language of Huns was Turkic and then Mongolians created their language from Turkic language of Central Asia... But a main difference is about their race. The Turkic people lived in west and the Mongolians in east central asia. Also during the sykths, european Huns, Avars and other western Turkish empires, Turkic people mixed with caucasians so much. Also during the Göktürk times, all the Turkic tribes from Caspian sea to China was called "Turk", so Mongols were always more pure Asian blooded than Turks...

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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 06:19

Oguzoglu,

Why are you spreading this kind of groundless, total nonesense again? You are creating "facts" that don't exist. It is wrong to say that turks lived in the west and mongols lived in the east. That's just plain nonsense. There were different turkic and mongol tribes living there and some turkic tribes were to the east of some mongol tribes and the other way around. There was no "magical dividing line" between east and west. Also, people in the western areas did not "magically" become caucasian-asian mixes.

When turks and mongols left mongolia they mixed equally with non-asian people during their conquests. It's not like that the mongols were somehow more interested in keeping their race "pure" than the turks. So, there were and STILL are mixed looking mongols in central asia Later on these mixed mongol tribes became turkicized culturally.

The huns and the avars were purely asian when they arrived in Europe and they only started mixing there. The mixed people did not necessarily come back to create some weird "caucasian-asian turks" years later.

Your theory is baseless and disregards history altogther. Just face it. There were no genetical or cultrural difference between Mongols and Turks back then. That's reality.



Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 12:23

But Turks belong to the Caucasian race not to Far Eastern Asian races which brings the Tocharian (Yueh Chi) element.

That is purely nonsense and racist. Some Turkic peoples are Caucasoid, some are Mongoloid.

No offense, but modern academia and historical interpretations are not always 100% accurate in their designations. The term Turán/Turáni (Turanian) are still in use in Hungary, and it's not ultra-extreme-nationalist! It is merely an older designation for Ural-Altaic Cultures and Peoples.  Turan is as valid as the word Iran, for example. So please don't make this into something it's not, like a political-propoganda issue!

That's how the situation is in Hungary. Among the extreme-nationalist Turkics, Turan stands for a non-existing super Turkic World.

Actually the alphabet was made by Uygurs, and adopted by Mongolians I believe.

No, the alphabet was created by the Soghdians (it was clearly driven from Aramaeic), it was later adopted by the Uyghurs and finally by the Mongols.

 

Oguzoglu, sorry mate but your post is mostly nonsense:

For example both always wanted to rule east and west in their authority. Both invaded the western lands and both believed that the ruling responsibility of the east and the west was given to them by Tanrı (Tengri).

Same goes for many empires in history.

But in fact, the Mongolian culture is derived from Turkic culture during the Hun rule.

Definitially not, it drives from the Donghu culture AFAIK but of course it must have predated the Donghu...

The language of Huns was Turkic and then Mongolians created their language from Turkic language of Central Asia...

Get lost! Where did you read that from?

But a main difference is about their race. The Turkic people lived in west and the Mongolians in east central asia.

That's not true. The earliest Mongolic peoples lived in Western and Southwestern Manchuria, the earliest Turkic peoples lived in the Outer Mongolian-Yenisei range.

Also during the sykths, european Huns, Avars and other western Turkish empires, Turkic people mixed with caucasians so much.

There were no "Sykth" empires nor were the Saka Turkic.

Also during the Göktürk times, all the Turkic tribes from Caspian sea to China was called "Turk", so Mongols were always more pure Asian blooded than Turks...

Don't you think the Mongols ever mixed with the Turks?



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Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

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Posted By: Hrodger
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 14:01
Is there any relation to Asena and Aesir? I've heard that Asena is
described as the place where the Imperial Race (or Family) from which all
Turkic and Mongolian kings (khans) was descent from, described as a
desert aristocracy in Chineese MS.

I've heard that the Chineese called all western peoples as Turks, and the
Huns were warrior Turks. Is not this correct?


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 15:24

Is there any relation to Asena and Aesir? I've heard that Asena is
described as the place where the Imperial Race (or Family) from which all
Turkic and Mongolian kings (khans) was descent from, described as a
desert aristocracy in Chineese MS.

Nope, Ashina was the name of the ruling tribe of the Tujue (Gök Türk) people.

I've heard that the Chineese called all western peoples as Turks, and the
Huns were warrior Turks. Is not this correct?

No, the Chinese didn't call all Western peoples "Turks".



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 09:38

Ihsan

It is obvious that you know history better than me but some of your ideas are opposite to history books. All empires wanted to rule the east and the west but this was kind of a holy mission for all Turkic people as you know better than me.

Also Mongolians derived most of their culture from Turkic people. Even most of their tales and legends were derived from the Huns. They didnt have an alphabet until they met with Uighur scripts.

Also the original alphabet of Turks isn't the Uighur alphabet adapted from Sogdian, that is Göktürk Alphabet. Even today we have eight vowels for the four two-sounded Göktürk vowels.

Also I dont mean that Turkic people appeared in west. I meant they immigrated to western lands before mongols.

Please inform me if I am wrong but the Scyths were a mixture of central asian nomads and Aryans so their culture was Turkic. I didnt make up this information that is official history as you really know better than me but the books can be wrong and you can be right...

But thank you for sharing some worthful exact history with us.



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Posted By: Snafu
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 18:07
The Chinese called all western people Franks actually. At least all Europeans.


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 06:22

Please inform me if I am wrong but the Scyths were a mixture of central asian nomads and Aryans so their culture was Turkic. I didnt make up this information that is official history as you really know better than me but the books can be wrong and you can be right...

They had their own culture which was both similar and different from the culture of Turkic peoples. All Iranic, Tocharian, Turkic and Mongolic nomads shared similar or same culturel elements but they had their different elements too. For example, the religion and culture of the Scythians was closer to other Iranic nomads like the Sarmatians.

But as I said in another topic, I don't really find it very important whether a people was Iranic, Turkic or Mongolic. I see all of them as steppe peoples with rather similar cultures.



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Posted By: Hrodger
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 07:57
Originally posted by ihsan

Originally posted by hrodger

Is there any relation to Asena and
Aesir?


Nope, Ashina was the name of the ruling tribe of the Tujue (Gök Türk)
people.



What time period are you refering when speaking about Ashina people?
Where were they located more exactly?


Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 11:37

Snafu wrote:The Chinese called all western people Franks actually. At least all Europeans.

Good example. Ancient Turks and today's Turkey remains relation betwen Franks and France. Brites and Great Britain and so on.

Oguzoglu wrote:the Scyths were a mixture of central asian nomads and Aryans so their culture was Turkic

Scyths and Central Asian nomads /various Saka tribes/ and Aryans are the synonymes. Kind of the language league, with similar religious complex /pre-zaratushtrian/. Roughly speaking.



Posted By: Turk
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 22:40
Originally posted by ihsan

Please inform me if I am wrong but the Scyths were a mixture of central asian nomads and Aryans so their culture was Turkic. I didnt make up this information that is official history as you really know better than me but the books can be wrong and you can be right...

They had their own culture which was both similar and different from the culture of Turkic peoples. All Iranic, Tocharian, Turkic and Mongolic nomads shared similar or same culturel elements but they had their different elements too. For example, the religion and culture of the Scythians was closer to other Iranic nomads like the Sarmatians.

But as I said in another topic, I don't really find it very important whether a people was Iranic, Turkic or Mongolic. I see all of them as steppe peoples with rather similar cultures.

I don't see what Iranic people and Altai people have/had in common.. There's Altai and then there's everybody else.



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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 15:15
Well both were steppe nomads living in felt tents and using horses as the primary things in their lives, which makes these peoples steppe nomads

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Posted By: Dark Attila
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 10:29

Hi ihsan,

A long time ago didn't you used to go by the name Janissary?  

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also Mongolians derived most of their culture from Turkic people. Even most of their tales and legends were derived from the Huns. They didn't have an alphabet until they met with Uighur scripts.

Also the original alphabet of Turks isn't the Uighur alphabet adapted from Sogdian, that is Göktürk Alphabet. Even today we have eight vowels for the four two-sounded Göktürk vowels.

Hi Oguzoglu,

If this is true then I'm definitely interested can you tell us more about the Göktürk Alphabet? Was this taken or inherited from the Xiongnu or Huns? Also were the Göktürks a group that could claim any descent from the Xiongnu or Huns?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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"Whomsoever chooses to deny his past cannot expect any future" -Old Hungarian Proverb


Posted By: battleaxe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 18:57

 

I most definitely would not consider Koreans Altaic. I would most definitely consider the Japanese, especially the Ainu Japanese, Altaic. It's still highly debated whether or not Korean is Altaic at all.

[/QUOTE]

You didnt explain why you "most definitely" would not consider Koreans Altaic...when in fact you say that it is "highly debated". Japanese is also debated regarding its Altaic status, and in fact more people consider Koreans to be Altaic than they do Japanese. The most conceivable way that japanese would be altaic is if korean was altaic and early japan was heavily settled by people from the korean peninsula. As for the Ainus, i have NEVER heard it said by anyone that they were altaic at all.



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 19:01
Korea and Japan are a little tricky.  I think that both areas were an endstop for many migrating peoples and the current populations there are a mass muddle of many different peoples...for instance, if you do the research, Korean can be potentially linked to the Altay-Urlaic, Dravidian, Austronesian, and Dravidian groups.  Quite a plethora no?...just my take on it.

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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 15:07

Hi DarkAttila

A long time ago didn't you used to go by the name Janissary?  

Yes exactly

If this is true then I'm definitely interested can you tell us more about the Göktürk Alphabet? Was this taken or inherited from the Xiongnu or Huns? Also were the Göktürks a group that could claim any descent from the Xiongnu or Huns?  

Neither the Xiongnu nor the Huns had an alphabet. The Turkic Runic script appeared in late 7th or early 8th century. It looks like this:

Btw, the Gök Türks had many creation/origin myths. Some of them are related with the Xiongnu, some are not.



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Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

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Posted By: The Envoy
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 17:19
hmm...is that writing related to the runes used by vikings? That they(vikings) had stumbled upon some old remains of this writing and taken it as the writings from Valhalla or the gods?

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>The Past Is Not Redeemable<


Posted By: aakhonba
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 05:17

If the turks were from altay mountains then why did they leave it in the first place?



Posted By: aakhonba
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 05:26

I know someone from Kashgar who claims that his family originated from Manchuria. Who were the early inhabitants of Manchuria?



Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:39
Originally posted by aakhonba

If the turks were from altay mountains then why did they leave it in the first place?

This is what nomads do, migrate to other regions.  By the way, not all Turks left Altay, there are still many Turks living there.


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For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
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Posted By: aakhonba
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 19:13
well that is really not a good answer.
Does anyone know who were the first people of manchuria? Some people from Kashgar claim to have originated from there. These people also claim to be Hun they pronounce it Hon


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 08:44
Hon or xiongnu is the chinese term for huns.
 
turks pronounce it like hûn so do mongolians I think.


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 08:52
Originally posted by xi_tujue

Hon or xiongnu is the chinese term for huns.
 
turks pronounce it like hûn so do mongolians I think.
Turks called the huns as "Kun" the word "h" didnt existed at that time by Turks, mongols called it "Hunnu" or "khunnu".


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Posted By: aakhonba
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 11:53

khon like Akhon... a family name




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