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Forum LockedPolish Winged Hussars?

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Poll Question: Were the Winged Hussars the best cavalry untis in the time period?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
63 [58.88%]
11 [10.28%]
29 [27.10%]
4 [3.74%]
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    Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 06:10

Were Hussars the best elite cavalry units in Europe or in the world of that time period(17th, 18th century?

If you think not then say who were better.

I'd say yes, best in the world of 17th century and early 18th....



Edited by rider - 30-Apr-2007 at 07:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boody4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 12:24
I agree also. I think they were the best, there's much military evidence to show I just don't know it that well to say it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 12:29
battle of Vienna 1683 (hopefully) with Jan Sobieski to finish of Turks...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keltoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:19

I'm convinced that they were the best cavalry at any time prior to the 19th century, including the golden horde.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 11:52
actually, when they crushed (3,000) the Swedish army (18,000) at Kirchenholm they were masters of their skill...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 12:49
I said yes because I don't think any other civilizations used cavarly by 17~18th century due to the introduction of Gunpowder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huitzilopochtli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 22:47

I dunno if they were the best,  personally an interesting match up would be Cataphracts versus Hussar

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 08:03

i thikn also hussars had better tactics, so i'd say hussars would win...

(and besides, hussars used guns also...)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 08:45

Originally posted by demon demon wrote:

I said yes because I don't think any other civilizations used cavarly by 17~18th century due to the introduction of Gunpowder.

The world didn't really quit using cavalry(for all practical purposes) until the early to mid 20th Century.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 09:43

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

actually, when they crushed (3,000) the Swedish army (18,000) at Kirchenholm they were masters of their skill...

The Swedes lost about 5,500 of 11,000, which was catastrophic casualties, but this was in 1605, and soon the Polish Hussars would see an end to their glory days. If you had asked about the 16th century, I had without doubt agreed that they were among the very best, but for the 17th/18th centuries... no. Their way of fighting had become outdated by the mid 17th century, and their tactics were inferior to the combined arms their opponents used.

 



Edited by Styrbiorn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lohendrin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 11:57

collection of the standards

"While the hussar keeps his lance the Poles shall remain masters of the field, when the lance dies so dies Poland's virtue"

I heard no exploit of this unit in 18th century, so it should be wise to limit its foremostness around 16th and 17th century.



Edited by Lohendrin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 12:15

Winged Hussars have became heavy cavalry after reforms of polish king Stephan Batory in the second half of XVI centaury. For about 50 years this formation was a king of battlefield able to crush every other or even combined formation. The best achievements were battle of Kircholm (defeat of 3xbigger Swedish army ) and battle of Klushino (defeat of 5xtimes bigger Russian army). After the reforms of Gustav Adolf western type infantry (especially Swedish) became nearly invincible for the sole cavalry action (including winged hussars). The position of the best cavalry of Europe was held however by winged hussars up to the neraly end of XVII centaury.

In XVIII centaury this formation was just obsolete and with poor morale and trainning was only a "shadow" of  XVII centaury predecessors...

So my answer is: "yes at all" for the period 1570-1620, "best in Europe" up to the 1683 and definitely "no" for the XVIII centaury...

..and I don't know how to vote      



Edited by TJK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 12:41
They also took a good beating from Swedish horse in a sole cavalry action during the Deluge. Too bad I don't remember the name of that battle - something they took great pride in, considering the reputation the hussars still had.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 13:11

Quote They also took a good beating from Swedish horse in a sole cavalry action during the Deluge. Too bad I don't remember the name of that battle - something they took great pride in, considering the reputation the hussars still had.

Battle of Warsaw 1656 (lost by Poles) - action of  800- 1000 hussars commanded by prince Polubiński crushed  copmletely the reiters of Uppland, Ostgothen and Smaland regiments (sp ?) in the first swedish line but during fierce battle with the sconfd line have been repulsed by the lateral fire of Swedish royal guards reiters and Brandenburgian infantry..The charge was not supported by next polish cavalry units.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 13:26
Originally posted by TJK TJK wrote:

Battle of Warsaw 1656 (lost by Poles) - action of  800- 1000 hussars commanded by prince Polubiński crushed  copmletely the reiters of Uppland, Ostgothen and Smaland regiments (sp ?) in the first swedish line but during fierce battle with the sconfd line have been repulsed by the lateral fire of Swedish royal guards reiters and Brandenburgian infantry..The charge was not supported by next polish cavalry units.

No, it was a sole cavalry battle. Warsaw I had remembered.  

I only has it from memory though, reaindg Englund's Den oövervinnerlige (The Invincible, English title), dealing with with Karl X Gustav's wars in Poland and Denmark.

Quote Uppland, Ostgothen and Smaland regiments (sp ?)

The regiments of Uppland, Östergötland and Småland (or in the genitive form, Upplands, Östgöta & Smålands regementen - in English I'd use the first form though).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 13:35
Quote

No, it was a sole cavalry battle. Warsaw I had remembered.  

I only has it from memory though, reaindg Englund's Den oövervinnerlige (The Invincible, English title), dealing with with Karl X Gustav's wars in Poland and Denmark.

Probably what you mean is Battle of Warka 7.04 1656 - Lubomirski&Czarniecki (6800 cavalry) vs margraf Frederick of Baden 2500-3000 cavalry+dragoons) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 15:01
Well, in the war for Estonia between Sweden and Poland the batte of Kirholm wasnt just a single swedish disaster. The whole campaign was going bad for swedes. I think Charles IX was a poor military commander and his army in Estonia was suffering many defeats from the outnumbered Polish-Lithuanian army. In 1601 Swedes lost at Kokenhausen. In 1604 again Chodkiewicz at the battle of Weissenstein defeated Swedish army, lost only 200 soldiers and slaughtered half of the Swedes and the same did about year later at Kirholm. The fact the campaign ended and that Swedes were not repelled from Livonia was only due to fact that polish parliament decided to not give anymore monay for the continuation of the war. Important was also rebelion of Zebrzydowski against king of Poland. Most of the polish victories in the 17th century were wasted in this way. Usually after defeating enemy in the field polish armies had to retreat to take part in the civil wars. Just like later when for example Lubomirski defeated Russian armies and went back to lead his troops against king John Casimir. Many battles were won while all the wars were lost. If Poland had more centralised goverment, if the king wouldnt have to beg the parliament for each coin, if the parliament was more patriotic and interested in defending borders the history would have look completelly different and Poland could have had 10 x much bigger army than it had. But polish nobles were interested only in harvests and didnt even cared when the enemy was stealing lands somewhere far away from them. All this has to end as it ended, in the partitions of Poland in 18th century. Noone likes taxes but even for modern Poles it is hard to understand our ancestors from the past who didnt want to pay monay for their own defence and who treated their own kings like rubbish.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 08:46
i know, they were weird but cool...and few divisions that dukes and marshals had wasnt just enough. Still, maybe Hussars hoped after the battle, if they die, they'll fly into heaven with the wings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 13:22

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

i know, they were weird but cool...and few divisions that dukes and marshals had wasnt just enough. Still, maybe Hussars hoped after the battle, if they die, they'll fly into heaven with the wings.

 

Oh yes, i think you described them well. Weird but cool LoL! Part of this mentality is still in our polish veins. We are anarchic, proud, we still are individualist's always ready to go against the main stream and always prefer more to fight against our own countrymen than against foreigners

Even on AE boards

I remember Daniel Dafoe (the one who wrote Robinson Crusoe) wrote about polish mercenary officer in England who murdered one english gentleman. Before execution the english offered him the priest and he refused saying that "he dont need any priest or confession because he is a polish nobleman so God will show him respect when he will arrive to heaven" LoL. And in fact that foolish and unlimited pride was the reason why Poland was lost. These guys were the troublemakers who didnt respect anything and anyone. But yes i agree with you that they were weird and cool. And the only thing which they really loved was their "golden freedom". The only thing which i dislike in them was that contempt which they were showing to everyone else. In their opinion they were elite of all the worlds nations and all the others were obviously worse than they.



Edited by Mosquito
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 17:34
"Winged" Hussars? Did they each have a Pegasus of their own?
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