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Forum LockedPictures of Bulgar Warriors

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pictures of Bulgar Warriors
    Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 08:48
Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

I think they are vikings (kiev rus warriors of Svjatoslav(?), from 970-972:-).
TSZ
 
Why not Gots then? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 17:36

A bulgarian nobleman.I don't know what they ate back then but it must've been a healthy food.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 18:50
Yeah, put Ichirgu boila Mostich there LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 04:05
From where is that Picture.I have never seen it before.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 06:40
I wish i remember where i have it from.I collect pictures and have around 2GB with different historical pictures.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 07:26
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6615&PN=1

I actually posted another one, but it seems that now on the server it is replaced with this picture with the same name.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Balkhani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 11:19
Actually, archeologists say the symbol IYI was present among scythians and sarmatians in Eurasia.
It's a holy symbol.It's believed to symbolise some kind of uniting power,balanser.It is on rossete from Pliska where it's in the center ,surrounded by symbols of 5 planets,the sun and the moon so it really could be the symbol of Tura(Tangra or whatever name you choose).It could be seen on later early-christian writings,stones and crosses from Bulgaria.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Montreux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 13:18
Follow the link and you will find over 150 images of Balkan warriors Wink

http://www.bgphoto.net/Photos.aspx?...6&AlbumId=84750
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 13:53


[/QUOTE]

That's interesting.The inscription is in Greek-byzantine letters. I can distinguish the name Πέτροc (Peter)

Originally posted by Krum

From where is that Picture.I have never seen it before.


He is khan Asparuch. As i can remember its a modern depiction of him(seeing it in a history magazine)



So the Bulgars have adopted katafraktoi units as well. In wich battles were they were used? I can't remember any example. Can you enlighten me?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 14:40
Neither do I. (I am not familiar with miulitary history though). But I found one review on McGeers book ("Dragon tooth:......") by Birkenmiyer where he says that reid of Nicephorus to Bulgaria was an example of useless of cataphracts in cases when enemy is not willing to fight.
 
http://www.jstor.org/view/00387134/di007791/00p0478o/1?frame=noframe&userID=82ef6d6a@umu.se/01cc99331200501c4138a&dpi=3&config=jstor
 
And as far as I understand, if this is true, than Bulgarian tactics wouldn't propose usage of heavy cavalry. Do you mean the right top angle? Why do you think it's cataphract?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 15:41
Since i don't wish to log in this site, I can only suppose that you are talking about "Nikephorus I" but i doubt if he had such a heavy cavalry as the katafracts of "Nikephorus II". If you're talking about the second one, i have to tell that i didn't mention any straight campaign in his reign against the bulgars but only that he persuaded Sviatoslav of Kiev to attack bulgaria.

Yes, you can only use efficiently katafracts in the plains, not in narrow passages or mountainous areas .

Actually i was talking about te picture below. The rider seems to have coloured plumes of horse hair in his helmet and shoulders, something that in the Byzantine army was used to distinguish the "vanda - bandum" (something like a silt subdivision).They used different colors to symbolize each one. I also thought that the bulgarian helmets had two feathers on their top( i suppose a turanic  influence) .







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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 15:58
Well, I just quickly listed the review. I will check which Niceforus they were writing about. Can one use any type of cavalry in mountainous area?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 05:51
Originally posted by Athanasios

So the Bulgars have adopted katafraktoi units as well. In wich battles were they were used? I can't remember any example. Can you enlighten me?

Burdokva said that the Bulgar heavy cavalry looked simmilar to them.
In other words something like this:



Not too heavy armor allowing greater maneuvering.



Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 12-Aug-2007 at 05:52
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 09:25
These two pictures are promo excerpts from the illustrated encyclopedia "Great battles and struggles of the Medieval Bulgarians" (kinda Bulgarian Osprey). The kataphract is from the second part of the Xth century, presumably during the reign of Basil II (Osprey's "Byzantine Armies 800-1018" gives a similar impression of a Xth century kataphract). The infantrymen from the second picture are from the second part of the IXth-early Xth century. Later I'll make some scans of the heavy cavalry, early and late Medieval era (it shows pretty clear how armor and weapons evolved in the Balkans during the period).

Osprey's "Byzantine Armies 1181-1453" has some great illustrations of Bulgarian medieval warriors (one strangely listed as Serb), I sugest you check it out.
And to avoid "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe", at least all the text and illustrations relating to Bulgaria...    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 17:18
Originally posted by Burdokva


Osprey's "Byzantine Armies 1181-1453" has some great illustrations of Bulgarian medieval warriors (one strangely listed as Serb), I sugest you check it out.


could you please tell me which one? i've been puzzeled by the plate myself, so i was not wrong Big%20smile

And to avoid "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe", at least all the text and illustrations relating to Bulgaria...    


the book in general is crap, not just the part on Bulgaria...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 04:52
Originally posted by Temujin


could you please tell me which one? i've been puzzeled by the plate myself, so i was not wrong Big%20smile


Sure, it's "1.Serbian auxiliary, 14th century", Plate E1. On page 24 there is a picture of Bulgarian and Serbian cavalrymen. It is based on contemporary manuscripts (the Bulgarian rider, I think, is from the XIVth century translation of the Manasses Cosex, curently in the London museum). Comparsion between the picture and the plate shows pretty clearly that E1 is actually based on the Bulgarian armor and equipment, only with a different qiuver (the qiuver, interestingly, is given to the Bulgarian auxiliary on foor at the bottom of the plate, E2). I suppose it is an editors mistake. Here's a comparsion I've made:

I've scanned a few pictures from the Bulgarian encyclopedia, though they need some cleaning with Photoshop, so I'll post them later. Hope you'll be interested in the vague topic of Medieval Balkan arms and armor!

EDIT: Scans cleaned up and uploaded, as promised.

1.Bulgar cavalryman and Slav warrior, c.VIIth century:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/BulgarandSlavWarriorsVIIc.jpg
2.Bulgar cavalryman, c. VII-VIIIth century:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/BulgarWarriorVII-VIIIc.jpg
Note both Bulgar warriors' (one in scale and one in chainmail) armament is heavily Eastern-influenced.

3.The Battle of Versinikia, 813
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/BattleofVersinikia813.jpg
The byzantine chronicler Theophanes the Confessor states that Khan Krum had assembled an 30 000 strong army "clad in armor, and their horses too". The latter suggest that the Bulgarians had heavy armored cavalry regiments (somewhat obvious, considering that the khan was able to fully arm 30 000 men).

4. Tsar Simeon I The Great at Constantinopol, c.913-917
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/TsarSimeonIatConstantinopole917.jpg
Still some Eastern-influence, though a lot more subtle, and an overall Christian look to the army. By the early Xth century Bulgaria had already been a Christian state for more than 50 years.

4.The Battle at river Skafida, 1304:
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/?action=view¤t=BattleatRiverSkafida1304.jpg
5. The Battle of Rusokastro, 1332:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/BattleofRusokastro1332.jpg
6.Siege of Turnovo, 1393:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/SiegeofTurnovo1393.jpg

XIII-XIVth century Balkan armors were lighter than their Western counterpats, both because the waning economical power of the Balkan states and the nature of warfare in the penninsula. Note how different the warriors look than the Eastern-influnced cavalry from the VIth century.
Also Osprey's impression of a XIII-XIVth century Bulgarian footman, based on a fresco from the Zemen monastery (seen it myself, the illustration is very nice in my oppinion):
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/Vruk/History/Bulgarian/Peshak.jpg

Also an article (in Bulgarian) on the military might and the size of the army during the FIrst Tzardom: http://liternet.bg/publish8/ivelin_ivanov/vyprosa.htm

Hope the post was usefull and informative!
    

Edited by Burdokva - 16-Aug-2007 at 14:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 16:15
thanks a lot, very nice pics and informative post of yours. yes the osprey book on late byzantine military is not bad overall, thats just a minor mistake. but the book medieval hungary etc is really bad, i also heard it from a Serbian about the information and plates with Serbian military.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Unknown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 08:35
@ Menumorut

you sure that the writing on the wall is bulgarian or slavonic? it seems like medieval greeks, i can see the name peter ΠΕΤΡΟC and several other words in greek.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 09:13
Liudovik_Nemski, very beautiful pictures.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 10:14
Originally posted by Unknown

@ Menumorutyou sure that the writing on the wall is bulgarian or slavonic? it seems like medieval greeks, i can see the name peter ΠΕΤΡΟC and several other words in greek.


I sayed nothing about the inscription, maybe another forumers. I just copied the image from a Bulgarian review, Arheologia Bulgarica, without noting their legend.

The grafittis are from the pagan period and the writing in Slav language was possible only after the invention of the Kirillic alphabet, in 9th century. Until then, the Bulgar used Greek in the few inscriptions they left.




Look what I found on Internet:



III. The legacy of Pliska

    11. Inscriptions



Pliska contains the highest number of the so called Proto-Bulgarian inscriptions – various texts cut into stone, written in Greek during the first half of the IX c. [26] Most frequently, locally found antique columns or columns brought after the military campaigns of khan Krum from Thracia were used for that purpose. No large inscription similar to the chronicle-type inscriptions of khan Krum or the building inscriptions of khan Omurtag has been found in Pliska itself, so far. The initial position of the Pliska’s columns is not know with certainty. It has been suggested that they were erected around the Palace and the Palace square. 42 inscriptions have been found in Pliska so far. Another 15 come from the villages in its immediate neighbourhood and, save for those at Madara, were probably removed from the Pliska’s ruins as well.

Regardless of the statements of some researchers that the Proto-Bulgarians had their own runic script, brought from Asia, not one such inscription has been found so far in Pliska.

The inscriptions in Cyrillic are few. Two short epitaphs from the Large Basilica, the first one – accompanied by a parallel text in Greek, and one inscription on the handle of a clay vessel are the only complete texts. [27] Similar is the situation with the inscriptions in Greek. Save for the bilingual inscription from the Large Basilica, there is one epitaph-criptogram from the end of the X – the beginning of the XI c. [28] as well as several short inscriptions, some of them – with unclear meaning.

http://www.kroraina.com/pliska/t/pl_3_11.html



Look an inscription from khan Krum:


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