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Forum LockedPersian words in Quran

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    Posted: 03-Apr-2005 at 07:24
while ago there was a thread going on about some foreign esp. Persian words in Quran here and here. Azimuth asked me to explain the roots of these words, and I'm doing so because I thought there was a misundestanding between us. I have looked in some books to gather some information on this.

These are the words:

Arabic word in Quran - Persian origin (English)
Din - Din (Religion)
Rab - Raba (God)
Fardaus - Pardis (Paradise)
Jahannam - Gahnam (Hell)
Barzakh - Bardak (Isthmus)
Huri - Pari (Fairy)
Jen - Jin (Demon)
Sarat - Rah Rast (Right way)
Shara - Shah Rah (Religion way)
Harut - Hurvatat [Khordad] (Name of an angle)
Marut - Murtat [Mordad] (Name of an angle)
Kahf - Kav (Cave)
Bab - Darb (Door)
Jidar - Diwar (Wall)
Sama - Asman (Sky)
Vaght - Vakta (Time)
Varagh - Barg (Leaf)
Raheb - Rahban (Monk)
Jaziya - Gazyat (Tribute)
Kahzinah - Gozineh (Treasury)
...
* The red words are being explained below
--
Now, I begin to explain the origin of only some of them. Since they are a lot (!) this is as far as I could go:

  • (Arabic - Persian (English)
  1. * Sama - Asmân (Sky):
    Persian "Asmân" comes from Old Iranian "Asmânâ" which means "stoney" (Old Iranians believed the sky was made from stone!). Aâs means Stone and Maân means enclosure(?). Even today in Modern Persian people use both Asmân (daily conversations) and Asmânâ (which is a more poetic version).
  2. * Rab - Raba (God):
    Rabâ has a long Semitic etymology and it occures in Semitic languages as old as Akkadian. I couldn't find it in Old or Middle Penrsia. Anyway, it's not being used commonly among Iranians.
  3. * Fardaus - Pardis (Paradise):
    This is Persian, but the correct Persian word is NOT Pardis, but "Paâleez". The origin of this word is Avestan pârâ-dhâitâ (surrounded/confined place; a garden). It was borrowed to Greek as "Paradises".

        In Iranian, pârâ-dâisâ became "pâr-dâisâ". It was in this stage that it was lent to Arabic as Ferdaus. On the other hand, the 'rd' sequence regularly becomes a "L" in Iranian (c.f. sardâr -> sâlâr). So, pardaisa became paalaizâ and then Paâleez (as we have it in classical Modern Persian).

  4. * Vaght - Vaght (Time):
    "vaght" comes form middle Persian (or Avestan?) "vaktâ" or "vâktâ".
  5. * Din - Deen (Religion):
    Din indeed comes from the Avestan root "daena". This may sound a bit silly but maybe some other Iranians could help me here: is there a "Dâene" in Modern Persian?
  6. * Jahanam - Gahanam (Hell):
    This is also Persian. It was used in Old Persian and comes from the Avestan root "Gâh-anam".
  7. * Shara - Shah Rah (Religion way):
    In fact, Shâh Râh doesn't mean "Religion/Religious way" in Persian, but it means "King's way" which also can be extracted as "worthy path". Sh
    âh in Old Persian was prounonced and spelled "xshâyâthiyâ". But, I don't see any logical and proven relation between them. However, if we want to take a guess, it is possible to say Shara comes from Shâh Râh; because (1) Shara doesn't have Semitic root (2) Shâh Râh is written in some inscriptions from the Sassanid period that meant "virtuous path".
  8. * Bab - Darb (Door):
    NO!, Darb is obviously is a new word that has been only used in Modern Persian.
  9. * Harut - (Haurvatât) Khordâd (Name of an angel AND name of a month in solar calendar):
    Haurvat
    ât (as well as [Marut] Amerâtât) has an ancient Babylonian root! but was also used by Zoroaster himself whose birth date is not discovered. Haurvatât was name of a Zoroastrian god (angel), the god of Water (i guesS) and was used as a month in solar system as well. For more information on this you can simply search the web. There should be a lot of information about this.
  10. * Marut - (Amerâtât) Mordâd (Name of an angel AND name of a month in solar calendar):
    Murt
    ât is wrong spelling and pronouncing, in Modern Persian it is Mordâd, and also Amordâd which is closer to its ancient root in Old Persian that was Amerâtât. The whole explanation is just like Haurvatât. It was the name of a god, plus it means "Immortalle". A- means "Anti" and "Mort" or "Mord" means "Death" and -ât is a suffix. "Mort" is also means Dead/Death in Latin, which has the the same root.
  11. * Huri - Pari (Fairy):
    Pari borrowed by Europeans in the 13th Cen. is an Old Persian word mentioned in Gathas of Avesta.


Edited by ramin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 04:32

i cant discuss with you the Arabic roots of the words you mentioned, that because i dont have the dectionaries i need and they are at home. and i will be at home at the end of this year.

anyway the Quran is Arabic and the Words in it are Arabic.

so if there are some words are Shared between Arabic and Persian it does not mean that these words came from the Persian Language even if they have roots which could be the same in Arabic.

also there is a posibility that these words are used by Arabs longtime ago before Islam.

it can be that the Arabs and the Persians got these words from the same source when their language are forming to what it was that time and what it is today.

also Arabic is Sematic Language that most of its worlds came from the Old Sematic languages. which may the persian took some also.

so if the Arabs are using these words before Islam and it is part of their language since the begining then these words are Arabic to Arabs. and Persians to Persians.

i dont know if what iam saying make sence to you or not. i hope it will.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 11:13
Ok. we'll discuss them later when u get home.
But before then, I don't believe u've read my explanation on those words, because 2 of them have Semetic roots (that there's no explanation for them in Persian etymology except the word "borrowed") but you didn't mention them. Anyway, let's just leave it here, and if I kept coming here we can discuss them when u're home.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 09:14

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

, I don't believe u've read my explanation on those words, because 2 of them have Semetic roots (that there's no explanation for them in Persian etymology except the word "borrowed") but you didn't mention them. Anyway, let's just leave it here, and if I kept coming here we can discuss them when u're home.

Cheers

i did read the explanations you wrote.

about the words with semetic roots, i wont have a clue what they are since iam not a scholar in languages. i dont even studied Arabic language in depth.

and you wrote them as persian words while they have semetic roots!!

if they have semetic roots then they are in our Family which includs Arabic.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 04:45
Yes, They have Semetic roots and yes, They fit in Semetic category including Arabic.

I didn't say they have Persian origin, I just broke "the questioned words" down, and apparently 2 of them had Semetic root, which means Persian "borrowed" those words and are still being used in Modern Persian. I have not and will not ever say those are with Persian origin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 21:51
Please do not foreget the influences Iranian had on Armaic and akkadian and Summerian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 02:44

 

ok lets see

note that each root for each word has more than one meaning and sometimes they are very different meanings but they have the same root.

Din  which means religion came from the Arabic root Dan. which means Habit and also means surrender and humiliation .

Rab which means god cam from the Arabic root Rab. which means god, Own, collect, the Base of the tribe and the head of the tribe and the one who took care of a child till he became an adult. ( but then you are saying its Semitic SO its not a persian world in the Quran)

Fardaus which means a place in heaven. note its not Heaven its a name of a place in heaven, its root in Arabic is Fardas. has different meanins such as  Huge, Wide, the capacity,the wealth and the quanitiy and a place with different types of trees.

so it tured out that Fardaus does has a root in Arabic and has many meanings.

But i think the original meaning of this word isn't that significant since it is a Name like the Name "Roum" which is also mentioned in the Quran and it meant the Romans. so Names comes as they are not neccesary with meanings or orgins to Arabic.

Jahanam, which is one of the names of Hell, "lisan Al Arab" dictionary says that it is a one of many names of Hell and there which meant that its "floor is so deap" and its orgin is Hebrew and became Arabised.

it says that there is claims that it may has persian orgin. , note this was used even before Islam so its part of the language. i did explain that to you in "salman alfarisi" thread if you remember.

Barzakh, which is a period in After life between death and the judgment day, its as its root Barzakh which means a seperator between two things, a thin land between two seas which is confined by them and also it means the Belive between the right and the wrong or between the first and the last. also some sufies call their scholars Barzakh.

Hur, from the root Hawr which has many different meanings, in this case it means the person whos eyes' white area is very white and the black spot is very black that its obviouse, the white and the smooth skined without any other darker colors.

i'll look for the rest of the words later.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 08:03

So if the root meaning is different then the meaning it is used for, and the meaning meaning it has in farsi is the same that it is being used for in Arabic means that it is Persian in Origin.... Any linguistic person can tell you that. There are same sounds or words in different langauges but when that word is used differently and not in the context then you have to ask why, and if it is the same as another language use in same context then it was borred. If it is pre-Islamic it does not change its origins.

Hebrew is off Aramic which Arabis is also part of in Family therefore if it has Hebrew origins it has Arabic Origins. As Jews and Arabs are both Children of Abraham

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 08:38

 

no they dont have a different meaning than the meaning they are used for now !

i said the Root has more than one meaning because its the root and one of those meaning is the main meaning which this word came from.

and as per your logic then how would you know who borrowed from who if both has the same meanings and the same roots??

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 08:40

also not all Arabs are childern of Abraham.

the Arabs who came from Prophet Ismael are called "Al Arab Al Mustareba" which means the Arabised Arabs.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 13:32
Originally posted by Aryan Khadem Aryan Khadem wrote:

Please do not foreget the influences Iranian had on Armaic and akkadian and Summerian
hm... I wish I knew how you can just "balghur" like this easy...

by the time that Old Persian came along, Sumerian as a language was well dead (it is guessed that Sumerian was a dead language by about 2,000 BCE).

Along the same lines, Akkadian was also dead by about 600 BCE and was effectively replaced by Aramaic, although we can imagine that it had survived as a scribal language (we have Astronomical Diaries in Akkadian until 163 BCE).

Language-wise, the influence of Old Persian and Parthian on the Mesopotamian languages (mainly Aramaic) seems to have been in the realm of specific names and concepts. For example, it is argued that the word for religion (deen) is an Akkadian borrowing from Avestan (via Old Persian). (I know this will be quoted by Azimuth's opposition!)

Since the Achaemenid Empire did not make any effort in imposing its language on subject populations, and the fact that the administrative language of the Achaemenid Empire was actually Aramaic, not Old Persian, it is no surprise that Old Persian has not had much effect on Mesopotamian languages.

For non-linguistic influences, see M. Dandemaev's "A Political History of the Achaemenid Empire" and "Mesopotamian and Iran in the Persian Period" edited by John Curtis.

P.S.: Interesting fact that I approached recently is Persian words laklak (stork), lagan (bucket) and Tanur (oven) all come from Akkadian: laqlaqu, ligen, and tinur respectively!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 13:36
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

how would you know who borrowed from who if both has the same meanings and the same roots??
It's a question for Khadem but I'll answer it if u don't mind... We cannot determine precisely, however a way to find out etymology of words is to look at the oldest available evidence; (1) where it was written, (2) by whom and (3) when. Accordingly, I wouldn't see any objection to your explanations (even though it's a brief research, from one Arabic lexicon). Anyhow, I Will look into your reference and will let you know what I think. lisan Al Arab did you say it was, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 13:41
I'd like to ask both Ayran Khadem and Azimuth not to turn this thread (at least this one!) into an idiotic chat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 13:52

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

I'd like to ask both Ayran Khadem and Azimuth not to turn this thread (at least this one!) into an idiotic chat.

Cheers

ditto, except azimuth is not a culprit in doing such things.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 14:57
and I didn't mean it that way. but when somebody starts something he'd get aggravated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 20:19

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

how would you know who borrowed from who if both has the same meanings and the same roots??
It's a question for Khadem but I'll answer it if u don't mind... We cannot determine precisely, however a way to find out etymology of words is to look at the oldest available evidence; (1) where it was written, (2) by whom and (3) when. Accordingly, I wouldn't see any objection to your explanations (even though it's a brief research, from one Arabic lexicon). Anyhow, I Will look into your reference and will let you know what I think. lisan Al Arab did you say it was, right?

ok about lisan al arab dictionary

it was written by Ibn Mandhor who was born in year 1232 AD in Cairo, he has writtin more than 500 books in his life time. died in year 1311 AD.

 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 20:35

I will try not to turn this into a idiotic forum, last thing I want. I really do not deny Semetic or Arabic influences on Iran or its langauge. I am trying to point out that it has also gone the other way. I will do more research into the Summerian influence, I read it but now I have to find that book. It is like the Noah theory if any of you are familiar with it. No not the Story of Noah from the bible, but a theory done by 2 americans that all civilisation came from the baltic sea region, and they were forced to move because of the flooding and expansion of the Baltic sea, which is something with no evidence but for some reason considered by westerns as a valid theory.

I admit when I am wrong or get somethign wrong, and I am sorry if i seem to attack anyone, that is not my intent

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