Persian invasions

In early european history the persian invasions may be seen as a turning point - perhaps even as the real "start". Still it seems we know curiously little about their european efforts, except from greeks point of view. What does archaeology tell us, and what about persian, phoenician or other written sources?

marathon was a simple punitive expedition, the one after was much bigger.

The Greek sources ie: Herodotus exaggerated it for the story telling and scale not accurate historical number keeping. Keep in mind that when an ancient means there was allot or massive amounts he will say it like 'as many as there are stars in the sky' and 'millions' to make the point. AFAIK, Its not meant to be taken literally by the word.

european history? No,  this is Greek history and a turning point in their world.

There is something wrong with the topic of this thread, Persian invasion -> Persian liberation.

Persian liberation is the true title. Immortals were liberators not invaders.


Edited by Suren - 13-May-2009 at 18:41

Persia never had democratic government.

I don't think the concepts of "Empire" and "Democracy" mix well. Even entities which are internally democratic cease to be so in relation to their empire: take Athens for example. It was internally democratic (Polybios might even call this government ohlocracy, "rule of the mob"), but there was nothing democratic about the way in which it treated Samos or Melos. One was punished severely for trying to leave the Delian League led by Athens, the other for not wanting to join the League.

Also, consider the fact that democracy cannot exist without the concept of citizenship. And to my knowledge there was never such a thing as "Persian citizenship" (I am, of course, restricting the discussion to the Achaemenid Empire).

So the discussion reported by Herodotus was never between Utana, Bagabuxsa and Darayavaus, but rather between Otanes, Megabyxos and Dareios. What I mean by that is the real historical characters never did talk in such terms. The discussion is purely Greek, makes sense only in the limited world of the Greek polis and is therefore carried out by highly fictionalised characters in a Greek history.

khshayathiya wrote: Leonidas wrote: european history? No,  this is Greek history and a turning point in their world. Well, I wouldn't belittle the importance of the Greek victory. In its wake the polis as a structure consolidated. Sure, this led to the horrors of the Peloponesian War and the eventual rise of the Argead state, but during this period of roughly a century very much was gained in fields as varied as political philosophy, military expertise or literature. One might even say that without these advances the rise of Alexander would not have been possible and, had the Hellenistic kingdoms not appeared, the Romans would never have developed the empire they did. (A bit of counterfactual history never hurt anyone, did it? ) I'm not saying that a Persian victory would have spelled the end of civilisation in Europe, far from it! Just that European civilisation as we know it, rooted in the values of the Greco-Roman world, would not have existed. Would it have been better? Worse? I think I've used up my counterfactuality allowance for the day

This war was important to greek history and nationality, indirectly this may have helped others in Europe, but its not their history. If this war makes the Greeks bigger and stronger, then that next event is the turning point. That is the arrival of Hellenic thought and culture into their (other 'Europeans') local history. not what help shape Greek history centuries earlier. I dont like Greek history being europeanised, nor are Greeks unique some other trading outward looking type nation would of filled that vaccuum down the track. you know what i mean?

This war help develop Hellenic identity, pitted them agianst others that were big, scary, different and undoubtly advanced. nothing like before. compare the attitudes to ethnos in the writing around the trojan wars where there wasn't that same greek vs barbarain/ foreigner notion, simply tribes at war over a personal fued and honour.

Persian liberation