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Forum LockedPazaryk culture and Turco-Iranic relations

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    Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 21:30
speaking about Kurgans, they found one in the Altay mountains in summer 2006, in modern Mongolia. the mummy was frozen so was pretty much intact, only the face was smashed because the tomb collapsed there. but you could still see the blonde hair of the mummy clealry, as well as the typcial Saka costume. this prooves that Sakas lived even farther east than was previously thought. either way, the Iranian Sakas were definately the ruling elite, it is possible that proto-Turkic tribes were part of the Sakas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 22:04

Having blonde hair makes the person in the tomb "Iranic"? the tomb was found in the Altay region not a region foreign to Turks/proto-Turks.

We don't know what language they spoke, seen as though Iranic and Turkic languages were spoken across the Steppe its likely that these languages were used. As it was a tribal confederacy this increases the amount of mixing going on.
 
Regarding the tombs of the Altay mountains they wern't Scythians, they belong to peoples of the "Pazyryk" culture, DNA samples of the findings in the Altay tombs don't differ much to the present indegenous inhabitants of the region today. It has been suggested although more studies need to be done that the peoples of the region are descendants of the Pazyryk culture.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 30-Oct-2007 at 22:05
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Blond hair doesn't make you Iranic.

But Pazaryk culture is closely associated with Skythian and Tockharian culture. Tocharian language BTW is believed to be the somekind a intermediate chain between Slavic and Iranian languages groups both of which are Indoeuropean. The grave of "Ice princess" which they found in 1993 in Altai mountains is almost identical to Skythian graves in Southern Ukraine.

Concerning Tocharian language, the inscruption were found which proves that that language was Indoeuropeans and closed to Iranian languages.

Saka language which was spoken ins Eastern Turkistan (Xinjiang) was also Iranic.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 23:54

This isn't about "Tocharians" or "Scythians", its about Pazyryks who are the descendants of todays Altay natived.

Regarding "Kurgans", it was a common burial technique of the steppe.
 
The Turks descendants were from the Pazyryk culture.
 
Regarding the physical appearence of the people found in the tombs, the notion of being a "clear-cut representative of the Caucasion race" is being heavily scrutunised.
 
Quote BALUEVA: She is a clear-cut representative of the Caucasian race with no typically Mongolian features.

NARRATOR: But at the Altay Regional Museum, Director Rima Eriknova disagrees.

ERIKNOVA: They made the Ice Maiden completely European. But in fact she also has Mongolian features. They said, she does not belong to our culture.

NARRATOR: Many agree this face is too European. Comparing the Ice Maiden's skull to others, pathologist Rudolph Hauri drew another picture.

HAURI: It was not our first goal to determine race, but we saw that the orbits were much more like this. Also the nose. I think she has rather more hints of a Mongolic origin.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 00:22
 
The Pazyryks were a tribe related to the Scythians, an ancient horse-riding race of nomads who ruled the steppes of Central Asia between the 8th century BC until they disappeared around the 4th century BC, possibly victims of conquest and intermarriage.
 
 
 
The reconstruction of  "Ice princess''" head.
 
 
 
 
I don't see anything unusual in the fact that Turkic nomades could inherit a lot from Skytho-Iranian nomades and that Iranian speaking nomades were among the ancestors of Turkic nomades. It's nothing unusual in that.
Intermingling was common for Steppe civilizations.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 01:07
1. You don't know what Turkic or Iranic peoples looked like in that era and if they look like current Turkic or Iranic peoples, for example did Iranic tribes of the Scythians look like Tajiks or Persians?
 
2. That re-construction is heavily criticised, its not based upon scientific studies, there are DNA tests being conducted they will be of much more relevance than a statue.
 
3. Other studies conducted in the Altay region have shown the natives to be descendants of ancient cultures in the same region.


Edited by Bulldog - 31-Oct-2007 at 01:10
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Why should they look like Persians or Tajiks? Being Iranian speaker doesn't necessarily mean that you should have modern Persian or Tajik phenotype.
 
Skythians for example often had light skin with light and red hair and often with green and blue eyes as described by Ancient Greek historians
 
We have an idea how Skythians looked like, there graves were excavated and the reconstruction of their outlook was also performed.
 
The fact that the local natives can be the descendants of Pazaryk culture, doesn't mean that Pazaryk culture wasn't created by Iranic speakers.
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I'm opening this thread to discuss Pazaryk culture and related issues.

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Quote Sarmat
Skythians for example often had light skin with light and red hair and often with green and blue eyes as described by Ancient Greek historians
 
The peoples living from the Altay to the Ukraine were collectively called "Scythians", its unlikely they all spoke one language, were one people or had one leader.
 
Quote Sarmart
We have an idea how Skythians looked like, there graves were excavated and the reconstruction of their outlook was also performed.
 
We have an idea of how people's in certain regions who have been named under the banner "Scythian" looked, not how everyone in that vast stretch of land looked.
 
 
Quote Sarmat
The fact that the local natives can be the descendants of Pazaryk culture, doesn't mean that Pazaryk culture wasn't created by Iranic speakers.
 
The Altay region if referred to as the birthplace of Turkic peoples. The people found in various tombs have been identified with the natives there today. There are even cultural continuities from that era in the present day people and in Turkic mythology.
 
For example
 
Altay is a very old center of metalworking. Since ancient times the Northern Altaics are famous for their skills in mining and melting iron and fashioning harnesses, helmets, spears, hunting gear, sabers and many other things.
 
Metalworking is of mythological importance, in Turkic legends alot of referrence is made to metalworking, working in metal mines, metling through moutains of metal to freedom and so on.
 
Its more likely people's of the Altay were Turkic speaking than Iranic.
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Dear Bulldog,
 
If I am correct, you are advocating the point that all the Turkic people from Altay to Anatolia are one nation.
 
So, why can't you accept the point that in antiquity huge steppe region from Altai to Black Sea was also inhabitted by people with at least very similar ethnic background i.e. Skythians?
 
There is indeed evidence that in the Eastern regions of the alleged realm of Skythians intermingles between Caucasian and Mognoloid elements happened.
 
Again, the fact that Altay is a cradle of Turkic people doesn't mean that Iranics didn't contribute to the ancestry of local people.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 03:00
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Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Dear Bulldog,
 
If I am correct, you are advocating the point that all the Turkic people from Altay to Anatolia are one nation.
 
 
But the fact is, the proto turks and mongols came from that ragion/possible lived in that region in the time of that mummy was living:-)
 
And it is sad that there is a "goldfever" in todays Germany and other countries how have enough money (and not else, like historical connections , correct knowlidge (f.e. "the schytians dissapeared in the 4 th century BC -and what about scyhtia minor in Dobrudja, the ir fortesses by the under-Dneper, wich were only taken by the sarmatians in the 1th  century BC)etc) to make legal excavations in the terr. of BC asian nomadic cultures. Its almost like by Schliemann, or like in the time of the early 1900 in Egypt, but Prof. Parzinger has a good manager team to sell the "product". The russians have museums full with frozen BC nomad mummies, and full with archaeologists without money.
 
TSZ
 
And possibly a lot of newrich billioners with little personal museums full with nomadic gold:-/
 
 


Edited by Tar Szernd - 31-Oct-2007 at 07:34
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Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Blond hair doesn't make you Iranic.

But Pazaryk culture is closely associated with Skythian and Tockharian culture. Tocharian language BTW is believed to be the somekind a intermediate chain between Slavic and Iranian languages groups both of which are Indoeuropean. The grave of "Ice princess" which they found in 1993 in Altai mountains is almost identical to Skythian graves in Southern Ukraine.

Concerning Tocharian language, the inscruption were found which proves that that language was Indoeuropeans and closed to Iranian languages.

Saka language which was spoken ins Eastern Turkistan (Xinjiang) was also Iranic.



It would be very strange to find a real blond among Iranians.

Pazyryk doesn't have anything to do with Tocharians. Tocharian could not be placed between Slavic and Iranian languages. Tocharian is a Centum language, phonetically it was more close to, say, Latin. In fact it opposes Indo-Iranian group within big Indoeuropean family.

Elsewhere I mentioned that Khotanese language is not and have never been Saka. It is East-Iranian medieval language attested some 15 hundred years after the historical Sakas in a region far away from the territory of the historical Sakas.
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Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

The russians have museums full with frozen BC nomad mummies, and full with archaeologists without money.
 


The Hermitage and the Altai Local History museum have some mummies in their expositions. Those were pretty well published (Rudenko, etc) and I don't think they have any "hidden' mummies left.

And from my humble observation the Russians spend much more money on archeology then Germany. They have continual excavations projects which last for some 50 years uninerrupted, like in the Golden Horde capital cities, Volga Bulgaria, Khazar khanate, Altai and Sayan ranges, Margiana in Turkmenistan, the Xiongnu cities in Transbaikal region, etc, etc. That of course only those I know.


Edited by groovy_merchant - 31-Oct-2007 at 09:32
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Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:


Pazyryk doesn't have anything to do with Tocharians. Tocharian could not be placed between Slavic and Iranian languages. Tocharian is a Centum language, phonetically it was more close to, say, Latin. In fact it opposes Indo-Iranian group within big Indoeuropean family.

 
Yes, you are right. Tocharian language is not Iranic, yet it has many borrowings from Iranic languages and studies reveal its similarity with Slavic languages.
 
 
However, an alternative analysis by a Slavic linguist, who cites phonological, morphological, and lexical similarities between Tocharian and Balto-Slavic, is that "at some very remote time, the ancestors of the Germanic tribes, the Balto-Slavs, and the Tocharians formed a Northern IE dialect group which split from the common IE at a very early stage and later (probably during the 4th milleium B.C.) dissolved into Germanic-Balto-Slavic and Tocharian." 61
 
 
The ways of Tocharic migrations from Middle East to East Asia are still unknown. The languages show many borrowings from early Iranian languages, archaic Finno-Ugric and even Tibetan-like forms, but the structure itself shows much similarity first of all with Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.
 
Tocharian language also challenges the traditional classification of IE languages into centum-satem
 
 
An even more significant implication of the discovery of Tocharian was the effect it had on the centum-satem division that linguists had devised by observing the reflexes of the PIE velars. Before the evidence of Tocharian came to light, the IE languages could be neatly divided into two groups: those in the west which had velar reflexes (centum languages) and those in the east which had sibilant reflexes (satem languages). However, Tocharian threw that distinction out since, although it lay further to the east than any other IE language, it was centum, the word for 100 being knt in A and kante in B. 67 'Thus, the overall impact of Tocharian has been essentially negative in that it has provided evidence against hypotheses concerning Proto-Indo-European made before its discovery." 68 Lane points out that this has resulted in the need for "our 'late 19th century' conception of the IE parent language... to be radically changed in several aspects, and nowhere more radically than in the instance of the verb. For our conception of the verbal categories has been based entirely upon agreements between Greek and Indic." 69
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Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:



It would be very strange to find a real blond among Iranians.

 
An interesting observation concerning the blonds among Iranians, below is the picture of Kalasha girl. Kalash peopl live in Pakistan and speak an Indo-Iranian language.
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 17:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 18:17

 

Some interesting info about ancient Saka inscritptions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issyk_inscription

Issyk kurgan

Reconstruction%20of%20the%20golden%20man%20interred%20in%20the%20Issyk%20kurgan
Reconstruction of the "golden man" interred in the Issyk kurgan

The Issyk kurgan, in south-eastern Kazakhstan, less than 20 km east from the Talgar alluvial fan, near Issyk, is a burial mound discovered in 1969. It has a height of six meters and a circumference of sixty meters. It is dated to the 4th or 3rd century BC (Hall 1997). A notable item is a silver cup bearing an inscription. The finds are on display in Astana.

"Golden man"

Situated in what was at the time eastern Scythia, just north of Sogdiana, the burial contained a skeleton of uncertain sex, in all probability an 18-year-old Saka (Scythian) prince or princess, interred with warrior's equipment, variously dubbed "golden man" or "golden princess", and with rich funerary goods, including 4,000 gold ornaments.

The "golden man" was adopted as one of the symbols of modern Kazakhstan. A likeness of the "golden man" crowns the Independence Monument on the central square of Almaty. Its depiction may be found on the Presidential Standard of Nursultan Nazarbayev.

The Issyk inscription

Drawing of the Issyk inscription

The inscription is in a variant of the Kharoṣṭhī script, and is probably in a Scythian dialect, constituting one of very few autochthonous epigraphic traces of that language. Harmatta (1999) identifies the language as Khotanese Saka, tentatively translating "The vessel should hold wine of grapes, added cooked food, so much, to the mortal, then added cooked fresh butter on" (compare Nestor's Cup and Duenos inscription for other ancient inscriptions on vessels that concern the vessel itself).



Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 18:24
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Samat12:

1. It's very difficult to place Tocharian within IE family. In fact, many believe that IE family consists of Tocharian and Indo-Hittite, i.g. Tocharian is as old as the rest IE languages and they split between 6 and 5 mil. BC.

On the other hand, we don't know much about Finno-Ugric before 1 mil.BC and Indo-Iranian languages before 2 mil. BC (let alone Iranic which, of due course, is younger then Indo-Iranic). So we can't really talk about borrowings from these lingos to Tocharian.

Chinese-Tocharian and Turkic-Tocharian exchages shows even more later dates: they began their contacts roughly around our era. And while Chinese does not really matters in this respect, Turks are important. Turks' ancestors  without any doubt lived between Altai and Ordos since circa 5-4 mil. BC if not earlier, they show very early contacts with different IE groups, specifically Indo-Iranian and German-Balto-Slavic and absence of early Tocharic traces in Turkic means that Tocharians migrated from some distant place or were just a small insignificant culturally community.

2. It's a common knowledge and a visual fact that blondes are extremely rare among Iranian speaking peoples and their physical appearance haven't changed a lot for the last three or four millenia. There are blondes among Pashto or in distant mountain areas like Badakhshan but they are rare anyway.

When somebody speaks of Caucasian appearance, it's usefull to remember that does not actually mean white hair and blue eyes routine, even in Scandinavia or Russia this is not very common. And "typical" Indo-Iranian is Mr. Ahmadinejad or Mrs. Bhutto.

3. The Issyk inscription is definitely not Kharosthi. There are literally dozens of such runic inscriptions in Central Asia and only one thing is for sure - we can not read them. The Issyk inscription shows some similarity with Saltovo-Mayak runics we find in Eastern Europe which is usually connected with Khazar and Bulgar states. But that is a long shot too for they are divided by centuries.
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Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:



1. It's very difficult to place Tocharian within IE family. In fact, many believe that IE family consists of Tocharian and Indo-Hittite, i.g. Tocharian is as old as the rest IE languages and they split between 6 and 5 mil. BC.

 
I've quoted the same idea in my post
 
 
Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:

On the other hand, we don't know much about Finno-Ugric before 1 mil.BC and Indo-Iranian languages before 2 mil. BC (let alone Iranic which, of due course, is younger then Indo-Iranic). So we can't really talk about borrowings from these lingos to Tocharian.
It's really hard to make such a judgement for me. Definetely, there are some borrowings, the question is their significance for the general stucture of Tocharian language

Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:


Turks' ancestors  without any doubt lived between Altai and Ordos since circa 5-4 mil. BC if not earlier, they show very early contacts with different IE groups, specifically Indo-Iranian and German-Balto-Slavic and absence of early Tocharic traces in Turkic means that Tocharians migrated from some distant place or were just a small insignificant culturally community.
Interesting. Can you please kindly elaborate more on the early contacts between proto-Turks and German-Balto-Slavic group in the area between Altai and Ordos?
 
Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:


2. It's a common knowledge and a visual fact that blondes are extremely rare among Iranian speaking peoples and their physical appearance haven't changed a lot for the last three or four millenia. There are blondes among Pashto or in distant mountain areas like Badakhshan but they are rare anyway.
I didn't say that blondes are so common among Iranics. However, the picture I posted proves that yet they exist and secondly again we don't have 100% data about the outlook of ancient northern Iranics. Yuezhi for example who are considered Iranics are described in Chinese chronicles as blondes and red hair people with blue eyes.



Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:


3. The Issyk inscription is definitely not Kharosthi.
 
Why? What makes the conclusion definite ?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 19:18
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Having blonde hair makes the person in the tomb "Iranic"? the tomb was found in the Altay region not a region foreign to Turks/proto-Turks.


Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Blond hair doesn't make you Iranic.


sure, but on the otehr hand there are no blonde Turks, therefore it is not Turkic. so if its not Turkic, its more likely Iranian than anything.

also, as i said it is still possible that there were predominantly Turks in Altay mountains at that time, just the ruling class was Saka (Iranian). this would also explain why later Turkic Nomads had the same Steppe culture than the previous Iranan and Tokharian Nomads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 20:05
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:


sure, but on the otehr hand there are no blonde Turks, therefore it is not Turkic. so if its not Turkic, its more likely Iranian than anything.
 
This is also, not complitely true Wink Check the picture of this Tuvan girl.
 
 
 
Tuvans, Kyrgyzs and Kazakhs not very often, but do have blondes and red hair people and also people with blue and green eyes.
 
Here comes into play the problem of Dinlings. Dinglings which were the original inhabitants of China are described as blondes with white skin and green eyes in Chinese chronicles. Particularly they were called as "red haired devils." Yet they were not Indoeuropeans.
 
It's very likely that they were pushed to the north and contributed to the formation of proto-turkic and proto-mongolian tribes.
 
Some historians believe that Ancient Kyrgyzs are the descendants of Dinglins.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 01-Nov-2007 at 20:08
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