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Forum LockedPazaryk culture and Turco-Iranic relations

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pazaryk culture and Turco-Iranic relations
    Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 22:23
Originally posted by CiegaSordomud


Now the Yuezhi name is incorrect because instead of Yue the pronounciation should be ROU. This is a known fact, but guess what? The establishment of western "historians" deem that its Yue. Its even in the Wiki page for Yuezhi. In other words their decision is what makes it true, nevermind the history of the Chinese who describe the names ROURUAN, RURU, RUIRUI, RUANRUAN to western and northern Altaic/Turkic tribes. So guess who are the RUOZHI? They are Turkic nomads from the west. Also forget the fact that the Rouzhi (Yuezhi) interacted for centuries with the Xiongnu. Instead western "historians" focus on the "history" of the Yuezhi not on Chinese accounts for that region and that timefreame, but on observers of the Indo-European world who were FAR removed from where the Ruozhi actually where. 
 
Well, actually all the names which you listed are written in different Chinese characters. And havr complitely different meanings, even though they might sound similar for a profane.
 
Like for example the words, shu and shu both have similar sounds but have different tonality and are written with different characters. So, those shu could mean a book, a rat, a number etc... Character plays much more important role than the pronouncation.
 
So, even though Rouzhi sounds close to Rouran those to Rou are different characters and are used for the disegnation of different people. You hardly can prove the relation of the people just by the close phonetics with regard to Chinese language.
 
Rouran BTW are believed to be a Mongolic tribe, not Turkic.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CiegaSordomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 00:20
Sorry, but thats an incorrect assumption.

The variety of Rou names were based on the pronounciation in names those tribes called themselves. To the Chinese it was how it sounded; it had nothing to do with the meaning of the characters. The reason there were several varieties of 'Rou,Rui,Ruan' names was because this grouping including many tribes and spanned for centuries.

 Second, the Rouruans were not Mongolians, this is a misunderstanding because the Ruru were active before and for much longer than the Donghu (ancestors of early Mongolian tribes). They were also located in the north and west of the Chinese, while the Donghu (Eastern Hu) occupied the eastern regions of Mongolia.

By the fact that the Rou's were not called Hu implies that they belonged to a seperate ethnicity. The Rouruan's spoke a Turkic language and among there there might be other extinct languages that might have existed near the Altay regions but were replaced by the much later Mongolian expansion.

This imformation is very important to the identity of the pazaryk because it shows the actual identity of the tribes that were living in these areas for centuries.

This website explains the misunderstanding. And informs us that the only appearence of Indo-Aryans occured much later after the Rouruan's themselves were expanding out west.

http://www.republicanchina.org/Turk_Uygur.html

Alternatively speaking, it is no strange to see non-Chinese websites advocating a school of thought stating that Ruruan [Zhuzhan], like Toba, were people of Eastern Mongolia and Western Manchuria and that "from the IInd and up to the IVth centuries, Altai lived under the influence of Syanbiy tribes. From the end of the IVth century the Altaian tribes were subjugated by the Zhuzhans ... and were to pay tribute to them [by ironware]." Also see http://www.altai-republic.com/history/altai_history_eng.htm for details.)
 
But after the Ruruan founder fled to the Altai Mountains, he conquered and absorbed remnant Hunnic tribes and Gao-che people there. Ruruans and Gao-che people warred with each other as well as allied with each other. Hence, the Ruruans were more Hunnic than anyone else. History Of Toba Wei Dynasty further commented that "Ruruans, though the descendants of the Huns, could not have their exact ancestry traced."

Western history books stated that "in c. 370, the so-called Huns were pressured by the Ruruans into invading Europe from the Central Asian steppe." We could say that the Ruruans were more Hunnic than the Western Huns they drove away towards the Europe, especially so after the Ruruans subjugated the remaining Hunnic tribes in the area. Western history recorded that the Attila Huns were so savage and barbaric that they ate raw meat. This life style was totally different from those eastern Huns who were semi-sinicized and civilized. A brief discussion of the relationship between the Ruruans and the remnant Hunnic statelets to the west and northwest is needed. To the west and northwest of Ruruans will be Hunnic tribes such as Nie-ban [Nirvana], Jian-kun [Kirghisz] and Su-te [Sogdiana] etc.



Edited by CiegaSordomud - 07-Oct-2008 at 00:53
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CiegaSordomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 02:02
Now lets us go back to the identity of the Pazaryk.

 Rouzhi (Yuezhi) are of Turkic ethnicity. Nowhere do the Chinese accounts state the racial characteristic of the Rouzhi. But as described before, the Turkic culture is composed of several racial types because its an ancient culture. Proto-Turks were Caucasian and transfered to the Mongoloid people in Northeastern Asia their culture and language. This event predates any Aryan showing by at least 2000 years.

This is evident in the Pakazryk site, where we find both Mongoloid and Caucasian racial types sharing only one form of culture.

The next piece of information is most important. The Chinese accounts do infact describe the racial characteristics of the Turkic Wusun. And this occurs durring the time the Rouzhi were also being talked about.

So we have a Mongoloid or mixed Mongoloid (since the Chinese did not find anything particular about their phenotype) Rouzhi/Yuezhi with a Turkic culture and language. Along with a Caucasian Wusun with a Turkic culture and language. Living right next to each other.

Yet the establishment refuses to look at the obvious evidence and instead is perpetuating the myth of "Celtic Scythian Blonde Nordic Aryan Indo-Aryan Indo-European" BS. And yes, all of these are being talked about in "reputable" sources. The Celtic reference is the most laughable.

Just like the Sumerians before, their existence was adamantly denied by archeologists and historians. Deeming their language as "priest code-words" and group as inferior compared to the superior Semites, in their point of view. We will be knowing more about the people who inhabited from the Caspian to the Aral since very ancient times more sooner than later.


Edited by CiegaSordomud - 07-Oct-2008 at 02:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 13:58

What evidence is there that proto-Turks were Caucasian? What is Caucasian anyway, is the distinction so clear between Caucasian and Mongoloid, can a person not have features of both.

      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CiegaSordomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 19:35

That goes back to the question of lineage. Caucasian or westerners are seperated by Mongoloids based on the migration paths their ancestors took. Out of Africa, the lineage that led to the Mongoloids came to India, then S.E. Asia, and differentiated in East Asia.

Ancestors of westerners including among them Caucasians did not follow this path. Instead they stayed in West Asia or migrating to Europe and Central Asia. This is supported by genetic and cranial evidence, there is nothing mystifying about it. Read up on it at any genetic anthropology site like Dienekes.
 
Like I mentioned before, the Chinese describe Caucasian people, who spoke a Turkic languae living to the west. Then there's also evidence from Andronovo and sites in Central Asia (thousands of years before any Indo-Europeans) that the people there are Caucasian and interacted with northern Mongoloid people. Giving them the Turkic/Altaic languages and the belief in a supreme diety TENGRI. Which is much different from native East Asian beliefs of naturism, shamism, and Sinic myths. 


Edited by CiegaSordomud - 07-Oct-2008 at 19:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Asawar Hazaraspa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2008 at 03:42
Originally posted by CiegaSordomud

That goes back to the question of lineage. Caucasian or westerners are seperated by Mongoloids based on the migration paths their ancestors took. Out of Africa, the lineage that led to the Mongoloids came to India, then S.E. Asia, and differentiated in East Asia.

Ancestors of westerners including among them Caucasians did not follow this path. Instead they stayed in West Asia or migrating to Europe and Central Asia. This is supported by genetic and cranial evidence, there is nothing mystifying about it. Read up on it at any genetic anthropology site like Dienekes.

A new theory, I think you should introduce your exact sources here not us, and you can not support your theory like there is nothing mystifying about it. Cause primary sources at hand so far dont even support it.

 
Originally posted by CiegaSordomud

Like I mentioned before, the Chinese describe Caucasian people, who spoke a Turkic languae living to the west.
As far as in chinese accounts there is no mention of their language being Turkic! 
Originally posted by CiegaSordomud

Then there's also evidence from Andronovo and sites in Central Asia (thousands of years before any Indo-Europeans) that the people there are Caucasian and interacted with northern Mongoloid people. Giving them the Turkic/Altaic languages and the belief in a supreme diety TENGRI. Which is much different from native East Asian beliefs of naturism, shamism, and Sinic myths.

The Andronovo culture and other sites in central Asia have been up today believed contrary to your saying the earliest cultures related to Indo-Europeans not thosuands of years before them.

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