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Forum LockedPazaryk culture and Turco-Iranic relations

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    Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 14:36

"Turks' ancestors without any doubt lived between Altai and Ordos since circa 5-4 mil. BC if not earlier"

I just want to get to know the evidences we have for this claim, in fact I have heard this often, The question is what is our evidences for this, excavations? lingual developments, documents, chinese chronicles? 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote groovy_merchant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 13:57
Originally posted by Sarmat12


Originally posted by groovy_merchant


 The second is that their ancestors came to these places from the South. I.e. Pre-Turkic had some very specialised words for monkeys,  elephant, lion, etc, creatures not to be found in either places.
 
This is extremely interesting. Could you please point me on some sources on these special words.
Originally posted by groovy_merchant


I'd be much obliged if you can point me at anything like that on the Yuezhi, be it translation or the original.
 
 
Seems that I indeed counfused Yuezhi with Bai people. Yet some say that Bai people are in fact Yuezhi
 
 
The Yuezhi were apparently a Caucasoid people, as indicated by the portraits of their kings on the coins they struck following their exodus to Transoxiana (2nd-1st century BCE), and especially the coins they struck in India as Kushans (1st-3rd century CE). Ancient Chinese sources do describe the existence of "white people with long hair" (The Bai people of the Shanhai Jing) beyond their northwestern border, and the very well preserved Tarim mummies with Caucasian features, often with reddish or blond hair, today displayed at the Ürümqi Museum and dated to the 3rd century BCE, have been found in precisely the same area of the Tarim Basin.




You'd better start with Etymological Dictionary of Altaic Languages by Starostin, Dybo and Mudrak published by Brill coupke of years ago. A rather lengthy and detailed preface to EDAL by Starostin has a very good explanation and a good list of reference works.

Also, if you can read Russian, there are series of books under a general title like, pretty roughly, Historical development of Turkic languages, there  are several volumes on phonetics, grammar, dialects, etc. You need the last volume  on Turkic historical lexicology which was published by Nauka last year.

As for the Yuezhi, there are no archeological culture that can be tied with the Yuezhi with any degree of certainty. And though I also agree that the Yuezhi were Europoid,  there is no direct proof to that for one. And that can also be said about many peoples there - the Wusun were Europoid, large parts of the Xiongnu, etc. We have direct craniological and DNA data to support that view. Moreover, significant part of Chinese population itself was Caucasian, like in the city Handan for one instance.

The Yuezhi was a relatively small group of nomads that lived between Dunhuang and Qilianshan, that is in westernmost part of Gansu. There are simply not enough space for a big nation. The Yezhi in the course of their migration were mixed with the Sai and who knows with whom else. And last but not least, there is no proven connection between the Yuezhi and the Kushans, that's an opinion or a hypo, not a fact.

And of course, the Kushan coins were just copies of Greek-Bactrian coins, not portraits. If you take a close lock at, for example, Pseudo-Eucratides mints or any early coins of the region, you can easily see that.

So, a) there were lots of Europoids there and b) we don't know if the coins were cast by the Yuezhi and c) we don't know if those were portraits of real people and not just continuation of earlier Greek tradition. This is not a real argument, it is just an idea that you may or may not like.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote adnanmuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:08
The Great wall of China was especially built to repel those people with blue eyes and blond hair ( the Roma people of the Ancient, the Turks meaning roads or riding because they were always on the move riding on caravans of carriages just like the wild west in america) they did not houses because there were no building materials like stones and trees in central asia at the time, and because were always looking for people to plunder and eat!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote adnanmuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 08:05
It is not true.
The Tuckarian language and alphabet is the mother (ancestor ) of current European languages (English german Yiddish etc) who all branched from the Gothic language which branched from the Tuckarian language)
 
There is no such thing as Indo European ( the theory that peoples came from India through Iran and Turkey into Europe in false!)
 
However ancient Iranian language bear similarity with the Tuckarian and European languages because the Goths stayed for two thousand years next to Perthia across the Caucasian mountains ( that is why Europeans call themselves the Caucasian Race because they came from there! North of Iran in Current day Ukraine, Dagestan, Volga, Turkmanestan and Kazakstan (all are Scythia the land between Mesek and Tubal (Mosko river and Tubal River in Kazakstan!) land of Gog and Magog in Ezekial 38!!
 
The People who spoke Tukharian language have long gone from there and now settled in Europe ( the White Europeans of the blue eyes and blond hair)) during the Wanderung ( the great Migration period in Europe 500 to 700 AD during the invasion of the Goths to the Roman Empire!!
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 06:54

Originally posted by groovy_merchant


 The second is that their ancestors came to these places from the South. I.e. Pre-Turkic had some very specialised words for monkeys,  elephant, lion, etc, creatures not to be found in either places.
 
This is extremely interesting. Could you please point me on some sources on these special words.
Originally posted by groovy_merchant


I'd be much obliged if you can point me at anything like that on the Yuezhi, be it translation or the original.
 
 
Seems that I indeed counfused Yuezhi with Bai people. Yet some say that Bai people are in fact Yuezhi
 
 
The Yuezhi were apparently a Caucasoid people, as indicated by the portraits of their kings on the coins they struck following their exodus to Transoxiana (2nd-1st century BCE), and especially the coins they struck in India as Kushans (1st-3rd century CE). Ancient Chinese sources do describe the existence of "white people with long hair" (The Bai people of the Shanhai Jing) beyond their northwestern border, and the very well preserved Tarim mummies with Caucasian features, often with reddish or blond hair, today displayed at the Ürümqi Museum and dated to the 3rd century BCE, have been found in precisely the same area of the Tarim Basin.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote groovy_merchant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 22:02
Originally posted by Sarmat12


Originally posted by groovy_merchant

On the other hand, we don't know much about Finno-Ugric before 1 mil.BC and Indo-Iranian languages before 2 mil. BC (let alone Iranic which, of due course, is younger then Indo-Iranic). So we can't really talk about borrowings from these lingos to Tocharian.
It's really hard to make such a judgement for me. Definetely, there are some borrowings, the question is their significance for the general stucture of Tocharian language


Nothing in the general structure. We have several glosses from Eastern Iranian, a lot of words from Sanscrit and Prakrits and some traces from unidentified Finno-Ugric. The latter was important though since it influenced not only vocabulary but morphology too. It was a real close contact, maybe a language union.

Originally posted by Sarmat12


Originally posted by groovy_merchant


Turks' ancestors  without any doubt lived between Altai and Ordos since circa 5-4 mil. BC if not earlier, they show very early contacts with different IE groups, specifically Indo-Iranian and German-Balto-Slavic and absence of early Tocharic traces in Turkic means that Tocharians migrated from some distant place or were just a small insignificant culturally community.
Interesting. Can you please kindly elaborate more on the early contacts between proto-Turks and German-Balto-Slavic group in the area between Altai and Ordos?


I didn't say  contacts in the area between Altai and Ordos. I said a) Turks were living in that area since certain time and b) they have contacts with the said IE group and contact area was not defined by me.

The first suggestion could be concluded from the most archaic level of Pre-Turkic lexemas, that is Chavash,  Yakut  and common Turkic. I.e. flora and fauna known to them was ingenious to these two regions. That's the first thing. The second is that their ancestors came to these places from the South. I.e. Pre-Turkic had some very specialised words for monkeys,  elephant, lion, etc, creatures not to be found in either places.

The second proposal can be derived from some well-known lemmas. Say, common germanic mare "battle horse"  and its derivatives could be attested in any Altaic (Mong. morin "horse", Turk. bara "soul of a horse", etc). Since Altaic meaning is general and very old (attested in all languages of the very archaic family) and Germanic is comparatively new and specialised then it was borrowed from some Altaic. Since Turkic were and still are the most western Altaic lingos then it was Turkic-Germanic contacts. There were back borrowings of course, like Turkic alma "appla" from GBS *jablo-, etc. Quite many of them, to be exact.

Originally posted by Sarmat12


Originally posted by groovy_merchant


2. It's a common knowledge and a visual fact that blondes are extremely rare among Iranian speaking peoples and their physical appearance haven't changed a lot for the last three or four millenia. There are blondes among Pashto or in distant mountain areas like Badakhshan but they are rare anyway.
I didn't say that blondes are so common among Iranics. However, the picture I posted proves that yet they exist and secondly again we don't have 100% data about the outlook of ancient northern Iranics. Yuezhi for example who are considered Iranics are described in Chinese chronicles as blondes and red hair people with blue eyes.


Chinese never described the appearance of the Yuezhi, that's a mistake. Red hair people with deep (or green) eyes were 1. Wusun, 2. Xiajiasi (that is Yenisei Kyrgyzes) and 3. Jie.

We don't know much about how the Wusun looked like but Chinese were saying that those of Yueban, the latest Xiongnu in the Southern Kazakhstan, who looked like apes with red hair and deep (or green) eyes were remnants of the Wusun population. Mind you, the Yueban were the Xiongnu.

Xiajiasi... Well they were the Kyrgyz folks, we have their runic inscriptions and we know their language, it's called Khakassian now.

Jie were part of the Southern Xiongnu group with high noses and deep eyes. Shi Le and all those funny people, part of Wuhu Shiliu Guo period.

I'd be much obliged if you can point me at anything like that on the Yuezhi, be it translation or the original.

And of course there is a very small percentage of blondes among Iranians, in the mountains or such high distant places with closed communities. That's genetics of cross-breeding. Hell, they even have albinos once in while. But that is really insignificant. Blond people live in the North. Like, there are great many blondes among Chuvash people, I think a good third of them are blonde and red-haired. Or Volga Tatars. Finland much more for sure, Sweden, Northern Russia, Baltic States, Scotland, the like. But definitely not in Iran, Afganistan or Tajik state.

Originally posted by Sarmat12


Originally posted by groovy_merchant


3. The Issyk inscription is definitely not Kharosthi.
 Why? What makes the conclusion definite ?
 


That's easy - just take a look at any Kharosthi... We can read Kharosthi, they still teach that in some good schools. We can't read Issyk legend and we don't know its language despite great many attempts of the first-class students of the field. That's why.


Edited by groovy_merchant - 01-Nov-2007 at 22:16
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 20:05
Originally posted by Temujin


sure, but on the otehr hand there are no blonde Turks, therefore it is not Turkic. so if its not Turkic, its more likely Iranian than anything.
 
This is also, not complitely true Wink Check the picture of this Tuvan girl.
 
 
 
Tuvans, Kyrgyzs and Kazakhs not very often, but do have blondes and red hair people and also people with blue and green eyes.
 
Here comes into play the problem of Dinlings. Dinglings which were the original inhabitants of China are described as blondes with white skin and green eyes in Chinese chronicles. Particularly they were called as "red haired devils." Yet they were not Indoeuropeans.
 
It's very likely that they were pushed to the north and contributed to the formation of proto-turkic and proto-mongolian tribes.
 
Some historians believe that Ancient Kyrgyzs are the descendants of Dinglins.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 01-Nov-2007 at 20:08
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 19:18
Originally posted by Bulldog

Having blonde hair makes the person in the tomb "Iranic"? the tomb was found in the Altay region not a region foreign to Turks/proto-Turks.


Originally posted by Sarmat12

Blond hair doesn't make you Iranic.


sure, but on the otehr hand there are no blonde Turks, therefore it is not Turkic. so if its not Turkic, its more likely Iranian than anything.

also, as i said it is still possible that there were predominantly Turks in Altay mountains at that time, just the ruling class was Saka (Iranian). this would also explain why later Turkic Nomads had the same Steppe culture than the previous Iranan and Tokharian Nomads.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:37
Originally posted by groovy_merchant



1. It's very difficult to place Tocharian within IE family. In fact, many believe that IE family consists of Tocharian and Indo-Hittite, i.g. Tocharian is as old as the rest IE languages and they split between 6 and 5 mil. BC.

 
I've quoted the same idea in my post
 
 
Originally posted by groovy_merchant

On the other hand, we don't know much about Finno-Ugric before 1 mil.BC and Indo-Iranian languages before 2 mil. BC (let alone Iranic which, of due course, is younger then Indo-Iranic). So we can't really talk about borrowings from these lingos to Tocharian.
It's really hard to make such a judgement for me. Definetely, there are some borrowings, the question is their significance for the general stucture of Tocharian language

Originally posted by groovy_merchant


Turks' ancestors  without any doubt lived between Altai and Ordos since circa 5-4 mil. BC if not earlier, they show very early contacts with different IE groups, specifically Indo-Iranian and German-Balto-Slavic and absence of early Tocharic traces in Turkic means that Tocharians migrated from some distant place or were just a small insignificant culturally community.
Interesting. Can you please kindly elaborate more on the early contacts between proto-Turks and German-Balto-Slavic group in the area between Altai and Ordos?
 
Originally posted by groovy_merchant


2. It's a common knowledge and a visual fact that blondes are extremely rare among Iranian speaking peoples and their physical appearance haven't changed a lot for the last three or four millenia. There are blondes among Pashto or in distant mountain areas like Badakhshan but they are rare anyway.
I didn't say that blondes are so common among Iranics. However, the picture I posted proves that yet they exist and secondly again we don't have 100% data about the outlook of ancient northern Iranics. Yuezhi for example who are considered Iranics are described in Chinese chronicles as blondes and red hair people with blue eyes.



Originally posted by groovy_merchant


3. The Issyk inscription is definitely not Kharosthi.
 
Why? What makes the conclusion definite ?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote groovy_merchant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 08:25
Samat12:

1. It's very difficult to place Tocharian within IE family. In fact, many believe that IE family consists of Tocharian and Indo-Hittite, i.g. Tocharian is as old as the rest IE languages and they split between 6 and 5 mil. BC.

On the other hand, we don't know much about Finno-Ugric before 1 mil.BC and Indo-Iranian languages before 2 mil. BC (let alone Iranic which, of due course, is younger then Indo-Iranic). So we can't really talk about borrowings from these lingos to Tocharian.

Chinese-Tocharian and Turkic-Tocharian exchages shows even more later dates: they began their contacts roughly around our era. And while Chinese does not really matters in this respect, Turks are important. Turks' ancestors  without any doubt lived between Altai and Ordos since circa 5-4 mil. BC if not earlier, they show very early contacts with different IE groups, specifically Indo-Iranian and German-Balto-Slavic and absence of early Tocharic traces in Turkic means that Tocharians migrated from some distant place or were just a small insignificant culturally community.

2. It's a common knowledge and a visual fact that blondes are extremely rare among Iranian speaking peoples and their physical appearance haven't changed a lot for the last three or four millenia. There are blondes among Pashto or in distant mountain areas like Badakhshan but they are rare anyway.

When somebody speaks of Caucasian appearance, it's usefull to remember that does not actually mean white hair and blue eyes routine, even in Scandinavia or Russia this is not very common. And "typical" Indo-Iranian is Mr. Ahmadinejad or Mrs. Bhutto.

3. The Issyk inscription is definitely not Kharosthi. There are literally dozens of such runic inscriptions in Central Asia and only one thing is for sure - we can not read them. The Issyk inscription shows some similarity with Saltovo-Mayak runics we find in Eastern Europe which is usually connected with Khazar and Bulgar states. But that is a long shot too for they are divided by centuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 18:17

 

Some interesting info about ancient Saka inscritptions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issyk_inscription

Issyk kurgan

Reconstruction%20of%20the%20golden%20man%20interred%20in%20the%20Issyk%20kurgan
Reconstruction of the "golden man" interred in the Issyk kurgan

The Issyk kurgan, in south-eastern Kazakhstan, less than 20 km east from the Talgar alluvial fan, near Issyk, is a burial mound discovered in 1969. It has a height of six meters and a circumference of sixty meters. It is dated to the 4th or 3rd century BC (Hall 1997). A notable item is a silver cup bearing an inscription. The finds are on display in Astana.

"Golden man"

Situated in what was at the time eastern Scythia, just north of Sogdiana, the burial contained a skeleton of uncertain sex, in all probability an 18-year-old Saka (Scythian) prince or princess, interred with warrior's equipment, variously dubbed "golden man" or "golden princess", and with rich funerary goods, including 4,000 gold ornaments.

The "golden man" was adopted as one of the symbols of modern Kazakhstan. A likeness of the "golden man" crowns the Independence Monument on the central square of Almaty. Its depiction may be found on the Presidential Standard of Nursultan Nazarbayev.

The Issyk inscription

Drawing of the Issyk inscription

The inscription is in a variant of the Kharoṣṭhī script, and is probably in a Scythian dialect, constituting one of very few autochthonous epigraphic traces of that language. Harmatta (1999) identifies the language as Khotanese Saka, tentatively translating "The vessel should hold wine of grapes, added cooked food, so much, to the mortal, then added cooked fresh butter on" (compare Nestor's Cup and Duenos inscription for other ancient inscriptions on vessels that concern the vessel itself).



Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 18:24
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:31
Originally posted by groovy_merchant



It would be very strange to find a real blond among Iranians.

 
An interesting observation concerning the blonds among Iranians, below is the picture of Kalasha girl. Kalash peopl live in Pakistan and speak an Indo-Iranian language.
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 17:59
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:18
Originally posted by groovy_merchant


Pazyryk doesn't have anything to do with Tocharians. Tocharian could not be placed between Slavic and Iranian languages. Tocharian is a Centum language, phonetically it was more close to, say, Latin. In fact it opposes Indo-Iranian group within big Indoeuropean family.

 
Yes, you are right. Tocharian language is not Iranic, yet it has many borrowings from Iranic languages and studies reveal its similarity with Slavic languages.
 
 
However, an alternative analysis by a Slavic linguist, who cites phonological, morphological, and lexical similarities between Tocharian and Balto-Slavic, is that "at some very remote time, the ancestors of the Germanic tribes, the Balto-Slavs, and the Tocharians formed a Northern IE dialect group which split from the common IE at a very early stage and later (probably during the 4th milleium B.C.) dissolved into Germanic-Balto-Slavic and Tocharian." 61
 
 
The ways of Tocharic migrations from Middle East to East Asia are still unknown. The languages show many borrowings from early Iranian languages, archaic Finno-Ugric and even Tibetan-like forms, but the structure itself shows much similarity first of all with Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.
 
Tocharian language also challenges the traditional classification of IE languages into centum-satem
 
 
An even more significant implication of the discovery of Tocharian was the effect it had on the centum-satem division that linguists had devised by observing the reflexes of the PIE velars. Before the evidence of Tocharian came to light, the IE languages could be neatly divided into two groups: those in the west which had velar reflexes (centum languages) and those in the east which had sibilant reflexes (satem languages). However, Tocharian threw that distinction out since, although it lay further to the east than any other IE language, it was centum, the word for 100 being känt in A and kante in B. 67 'Thus, the overall impact of Tocharian has been essentially negative in that it has provided evidence against hypotheses concerning Proto-Indo-European made before its discovery." 68 Lane points out that this has resulted in the need for "our 'late 19th century' conception of the IE parent language... to be radically changed in several aspects, and nowhere more radically than in the instance of the verb. For our conception of the verbal categories has been based entirely upon agreements between Greek and Indic." 69
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Post Options Post Options   Quote groovy_merchant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 09:28
Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

The russians have museums full with frozen BC nomad mummies, and full with archaeologists without money.
 


The Hermitage and the Altai Local History museum have some mummies in their expositions. Those were pretty well published (Rudenko, etc) and I don't think they have any "hidden' mummies left.

And from my humble observation the Russians spend much more money on archeology then Germany. They have continual excavations projects which last for some 50 years uninerrupted, like in the Golden Horde capital cities, Volga Bulgaria, Khazar khanate, Altai and Sayan ranges, Margiana in Turkmenistan, the Xiongnu cities in Transbaikal region, etc, etc. That of course only those I know.


Edited by groovy_merchant - 31-Oct-2007 at 09:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote groovy_merchant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 08:59
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Blond hair doesn't make you Iranic.

But Pazaryk culture is closely associated with Skythian and Tockharian culture. Tocharian language BTW is believed to be the somekind a intermediate chain between Slavic and Iranian languages groups both of which are Indoeuropean. The grave of "Ice princess" which they found in 1993 in Altai mountains is almost identical to Skythian graves in Southern Ukraine.

Concerning Tocharian language, the inscruption were found which proves that that language was Indoeuropeans and closed to Iranian languages.

Saka language which was spoken ins Eastern Turkistan (Xinjiang) was also Iranic.



It would be very strange to find a real blond among Iranians.

Pazyryk doesn't have anything to do with Tocharians. Tocharian could not be placed between Slavic and Iranian languages. Tocharian is a Centum language, phonetically it was more close to, say, Latin. In fact it opposes Indo-Iranian group within big Indoeuropean family.

Elsewhere I mentioned that Khotanese language is not and have never been Saka. It is East-Iranian medieval language attested some 15 hundred years after the historical Sakas in a region far away from the territory of the historical Sakas.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 07:32
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Dear Bulldog,
 
If I am correct, you are advocating the point that all the Turkic people from Altay to Anatolia are one nation.
 
 
But the fact is, the proto turks and mongols came from that ragion/possible lived in that region in the time of that mummy was living:-)
 
And it is sad that there is a "goldfever" in todays Germany and other countries how have enough money (and not else, like historical connections , correct knowlidge (f.e. "the schytians dissapeared in the 4 th century BC -and what about scyhtia minor in Dobrudja, the ir fortesses by the under-Dneper, wich were only taken by the sarmatians in the 1th  century BC)etc) to make legal excavations in the terr. of BC asian nomadic cultures. Its almost like by Schliemann, or like in the time of the early 1900 in Egypt, but Prof. Parzinger has a good manager team to sell the "product". The russians have museums full with frozen BC nomad mummies, and full with archaeologists without money.
 
TSZ
 
And possibly a lot of newrich billioners with little personal museums full with nomadic gold:-/
 
 


Edited by Tar Szerénd - 31-Oct-2007 at 07:34
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:53
Dear Bulldog,
 
If I am correct, you are advocating the point that all the Turkic people from Altay to Anatolia are one nation.
 
So, why can't you accept the point that in antiquity huge steppe region from Altai to Black Sea was also inhabitted by people with at least very similar ethnic background i.e. Skythians?
 
There is indeed evidence that in the Eastern regions of the alleged realm of Skythians intermingles between Caucasian and Mognoloid elements happened.
 
Again, the fact that Altay is a cradle of Turkic people doesn't mean that Iranics didn't contribute to the ancestry of local people.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 03:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:38
Sarmat
Skythians for example often had light skin with light and red hair and often with green and blue eyes as described by Ancient Greek historians
 
The peoples living from the Altay to the Ukraine were collectively called "Scythians", its unlikely they all spoke one language, were one people or had one leader.
 
Sarmart
We have an idea how Skythians looked like, there graves were excavated and the reconstruction of their outlook was also performed.
 
We have an idea of how people's in certain regions who have been named under the banner "Scythian" looked, not how everyone in that vast stretch of land looked.
 
 
Sarmat
The fact that the local natives can be the descendants of Pazaryk culture, doesn't mean that Pazaryk culture wasn't created by Iranic speakers.
 
The Altay region if referred to as the birthplace of Turkic peoples. The people found in various tombs have been identified with the natives there today. There are even cultural continuities from that era in the present day people and in Turkic mythology.
 
For example
 
Altay is a very old center of metalworking. Since ancient times the Northern Altaics are famous for their skills in mining and melting iron and fashioning harnesses, helmets, spears, hunting gear, sabers and many other things.
 
Metalworking is of mythological importance, in Turkic legends alot of referrence is made to metalworking, working in metal mines, metling through moutains of metal to freedom and so on.
 
Its more likely people's of the Altay were Turkic speaking than Iranic.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 01:33

I'm opening this thread to discuss Pazaryk culture and related issues.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 01:28
Why should they look like Persians or Tajiks? Being Iranian speaker doesn't necessarily mean that you should have modern Persian or Tajik phenotype.
 
Skythians for example often had light skin with light and red hair and often with green and blue eyes as described by Ancient Greek historians
 
We have an idea how Skythians looked like, there graves were excavated and the reconstruction of their outlook was also performed.
 
The fact that the local natives can be the descendants of Pazaryk culture, doesn't mean that Pazaryk culture wasn't created by Iranic speakers.
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