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    Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 00:07
I am looking for a site about the clothing of the Patriarch about 1453 so I can better describe Metrophanes the last unofficial patriarch in my story. Does anyone know of a link with pics and a good description of their clothing?

I wonder where Byz Emp is?????????????????

meanwhile I found this book but @ $79.95 ouch!!



I will look on Amazon

Edited by eaglecap - 09-Jun-2009 at 00:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 17:17
There are some discussions with pictures on these sites about Patriarch Joseph II when he attended the Council of Florence 1439-1444.  Most of the descriptions of his appearance come from the paintings of Florentine artists.  There are also some descriptions in Syropoulos (the Greek chronicler of the council) and the secondary literature by John Gill, SJ.
 
 
Gill, Joseph. The Council of Florence. Cambridge: University Press, 1959.
 
Gill, Joseph. Personalities of the Council of Florence, and Other Essays. New York: Barnes & Noble, 1965.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 22:40
I found this image that could help with discription but any other links.


Mehmed II making Gennadios Scholarios
Patriarch of Constantinople
20th C Mosaic, Ecumenical Patriarchate, Istanbul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 21:17

On Diana Wright's site there are picture of Patriarch Joseph II from Florentine paintings.  As for Gennadios, I do not think there are any surviving representations of him.  The one above is a modern picture.

Here are the ones of Joseph II:
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 05:14
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

On Diana Wright's site there are picture of Patriarch Joseph II from Florentine paintings.  As for Gennadios, I do not think there are any surviving representations of him.  The one above is a modern picture.


Here are the ones of Joseph II:

 

 

 

 

 


 



I like the Emperor's hat! Can I order one like that from Sears or JC Penney
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 14:22

Unfortunately the books I've scanned this picture from didn't have many information, I suppose its the dress of the after 1453 Patriarch:

And the nice hat of the emperors by Pisanello, in a medallion of John VII Palaiologos:

 

I suppose this depiction of John Palaiologos is the most accurate, considering that Pisanello met him personaly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 19:56
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

Unfortunately the books I've scanned this picture from didn't have many information, I suppose its the dress of the after 1453 Patriarch:

And the nice hat of the emperors by Pisanello, in a medallion of John VII Palaiologos:

 

I suppose this depiction of John Palaiologos is the most accurate, considering that Pisanello met him personaly.





Thank you Patrinos fellow Greek.
I see the cloak but what would his oovering and inner garb be called in Orthodox clergy terms from that period? Today, I will work on my story about 1453 and this will be very helpful in creating the fiction.

Are you in Athens? I spent a month in Athens in 2001 and two weeks in 1998 and met relatives there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 14:55
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Thank you Patrinos fellow Greek.
I see the cloak but what would his oovering and inner garb be called in Orthodox clergy terms from that period? Today, I will work on my story about 1453 and this will be very helpful in creating the fiction.

Are you in Athens? I spent a month in Athens in 2001 and two weeks in 1998 and met relatives there.

Well, the dress of the clergy are generally called amphia-άμφια. 

In the picture of Gennadios I suppose the covering is a simple type of phailonion/φαιλόνιον, and the inside an esorason-εσώρασον, worn mostly by monks/monachous.

And the hood that he's wearing is called koukoulion-κουκούλιον.

The verge he is holding is called poimantorike ravdos-ποιμαντορική ράβδος.

Here's a less simple ravdos:

And this hat is called skiadion-σκιάδιον.

PS-I suppose that there is a reason why the Patriarch Gennadios is so simple dressed in the mosaic Byz.Emp. quoted, with Mohamed...

No Eaglecap, I'm not from Athens, as my nickname show I'm from Patra,Peloponnesos. If I remember correctly you have origins from Eastern Thrace, right?



Edited by Patrinos - 13-Jun-2009 at 15:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 18:51
I'm not from Athens, as my nickname show I'm from Patra,Peloponnesos. If I remember correctly you have origins from Eastern Thrace, right?



My Papoo was from Eastern Thrace till about eight then moved to Thessolonikki; after the Turks killed his family.(no offense meant to my Turkish friends today) My Yia Yia and mother were from Korinthos- not far from you. I have been to Patra when I first came to Greece in 1998 on the way to the Oracle of Delphi.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 21:33
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I like the Emperor's hat! Can I order one like that from Sears or JC Penney
 
LOL That would be cool!  Perhaps New Era, who makes Major League Baseball's official team caps, could market a special Byzantine line of hats?
 
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

Unfortunately the books I've scanned this picture from didn't have many information, I suppose its the dress of the after 1453 Patriarch:
 
Hey Patrinos!  Good to see you again.  I am curious; what book did you scan the pic of the patriarch from?  I don't think I have seen this particular drawing.
 
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

I suppose this depiction of John Palaiologos is the most accurate, considering that Pisanello met him personaly.
 
Yes, Pisanello and several other artists either met John VIII and the Byzantine retinue or at least saw them in Florence during the Council.  The Greeks were items of great curiosity and wonder to the Italian artists (and presumably the townsfolk as well).  The artists used their likeliness as models for various religious and historical figures in paintings.  John, Joseph, Bessarion, and Plethon were especially used.
 
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

The verge he is holding is called poimantorike ravdos-ποιμαντορική ράβδος.
 
Interesting.  The Septuagint translates the word used for Moses' staff as ράβδος.
 
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

PS-I suppose that there is a reason why the Patriarch Gennadios is so simple dressed in the mosaic Byz.Emp. quoted, with Mohamed...
 
My guess is that he was restricted by Ottoman law from wearing expensive and exalted vestments.  However, Gennadios was given special privileges by Mehmet II, such as that of riding a horse in the City and having a personal audience with the Sultan.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 23:05

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Hey Patrinos!  Good to see you again.  I am curious; what book did you scan the pic of the patriarch from?  I don't think I have seen this particular drawing.

I've scanned this picture from Istoria tou Hellenikou Ethnous by Ekdotike Athenon,v.10. This painting is in the Gennadios Library in Athens.

One little correction, answering to Eaglecap's question. The inside cloth of the Patriarch in the picture I've quoted is specifically called sphiktourion or anterin(σφικτούριον-αντέριν)  and the covering can be called generally as mandyas(μανδύας).

Here is another depiction of the Patriarch of Constantinopolis, of 16th century, with other clergymen,monks as their headdress shows, the epirriptaria-επιρριπτάρια. From the National Library of Vienna.

And one other depiction from the period we are discussing. It's the Patriarch Ieremias II Tranos(the leading interlocutor with Protestants):

 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

The verge he is holding is called poimantorike ravdos-ποιμαντορική ράβδος.
 
Interesting.  The Septuagint translates the word used for Moses' staff as ράβδος.
Well yes, ραβδος can be generally translated as staff/rod, in modern greek and as neuter ραβδί.
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

 
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

PS-I suppose that there is a reason why the Patriarch Gennadios is so simple dressed in the mosaic Byz.Emp. quoted, with Mohamed...
 
My guess is that he was restricted by Ottoman law from wearing expensive and exalted vestments.  However, Gennadios was given special privileges by Mehmet II, such as that of riding a horse in the City and having a personal audience with the Sultan.
Its true, Mohamed , was a very clever sultan, and understood the Patriarch's influence in the Orthodox world and specifically the Greek world...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 17:27
George Sprantzes was Constantine's personal wardrobe attendant and a Monk so I wonder what he would have dressed like? He is a prominent character in my story. I have read through two primary sources by him and one by Doukas, Turan Bey also
To me 1453 is one of the great epic battles, in history, where you had a huge army against a few defenders. I am sure there has been a movie made in other countries but Hollywierd has never picked up on the great story or have they?? Anyone know of even an old movie about 1453 that is American/Canadian/ UK made- in English I mean.

I looked at the image and the one with the red book is the character I will use in describing George Sprantzes. Good chose????

I have one copy from interlibrary loan of the fall of Constantinople by George Sprantzes. I will make a copy and then type, for my records, the last speech of Constantine XI; as penned down by Sprantzes. It is an amazing speech and with current events it speaks for us today-- both in the USA, Greece or Europe.


Edited by eaglecap - 15-Jun-2009 at 18:05
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