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Forum LockedPakistanis and Indians same?

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 03:40
Shalwar Qameez, as it is sold in shops in Pakistan, is originally Punjabi IIRC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 04:41
OK. I've been to most of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. I've spent a year in India over two decades of change, queued for Freedon Fighter Quota tickets in Jabalpur, been in Islamabad when 9/11 struck watched as the flag burning protests happen and stayed Dakar in search of Marmite as the mothers of 16-18 yar old girls tried to convince me to marry their daughters.
 
Really sub-continenters needs to see, My Beautiful Laundrette the movie (Wiv Daniel Day-Lewis), and read The Buddha of Surburbia, (with the English Guy form Lost). Then they would understand they are intellectually, intelligently, no-different from westerners or each other. However irrationally irrevicallably divided from both and fellow sub-continenters.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Paul - 23-Mar-2008 at 04:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 15:51
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Shalwar Qameez, as it is sold in shops in Pakistan, is originally Punjabi IIRC

 

Just because Punjabi Muslim refuse to wear their traditional cloth(pic posted) does not mean Shalwar Qameez is Punjabi cloth.

 

 

PS: Shalwar Qameez sold in Pakistan are actually typical Afghan/Pashton cloth. it is more baggy and the skirt is longer. One of my Pakistani friends recently brought me one from Islamabad.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 16:10

Sorry to say i find this question very absurd. Indeed there is nothing unique about population called Pakistani or the country called Pakistan that can base the Pakistani identity. The same is true for Indians...it is actually religion that give both countries a form of identity. Now we can take the norm of both...majority of population of both country…in Pakistan that are Punjabis…does Punjabi are the same with Indian? Off course NOT..Punjabis specially western Punjab has lots of settlement from Afghanistan, Iran, and as for as Arabia…racially Punjabis are closer to Afghan and Iranians….although culturally Punjabis are indic people. Thus we can conclude that Pakistanis are the same as Indian Punjabis which if I’m not mistaken make between 3 to 5 percent of India and no way Pakistani are the same as Indian! Pakistan although her official culture/language is Indic but historically it’s a melting pot of Indic and Iranic culture.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 17:37
Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Sorry to say i find this question very absurd. Indeed there is nothing unique about population called Pakistani or the country called Pakistan that can base the Pakistani identity. The same is true for Indians...it is actually religion that give both countries a form of identity. Now we can take the norm of both...majority of population of both country…in Pakistan that are Punjabis…does Punjabi are the same with Indian? Off course NOT..Punjabis specially western Punjab has lots of settlement from Afghanistan, Iran, and as for as Arabia…racially Punjabis are closer to Afghan and Iranians….although culturally Punjabis are indic people. Thus we can conclude that Pakistanis are the same as Indian Punjabis which if I’m not mistaken make between 3 to 5 percent of India and no way Pakistani are the same as Indian! Pakistan although her official culture/language is Indic but historically it’s a melting pot of Indic and Iranic culture.



No doubt pakistani punjabis are the same as indian punjabis and obviously there is a lot of diversity between the provinces of pakistan itself but you conveniently seem to skip over the analysis of afghans and pashtuns under the same lens. It can just as easily be said that the nation-state of Afghanistan's borders surround a fault line between three cultures--Persian(Iranic),  Turk(Uzbek and  Turkomen)  and of course Pashtun(Indic).  So then there is nothing unique about the population of afghanistan. It is three or more cultures artifically stitched together with a common religion and two official languages everyone is encouraged to know, especially in politics. The area composing of  the three hundred year old state of afghanistan has historically been a cultural melting pot of Indic, Iranic and Turkic culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 22:35
Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Sorry to say i find this question very absurd. Indeed there is nothing unique about population called Pakistani or the country called Pakistan that can base the Pakistani identity. The same is true for Indians...it is actually religion that give both countries a form of identity. Now we can take the norm of both...majority of population of both country…in Pakistan that are Punjabis…does Punjabi are the same with Indian? Off course NOT..Punjabis specially western Punjab has lots of settlement from Afghanistan, Iran, and as for as Arabia…racially Punjabis are closer to Afghan and Iranians….although culturally Punjabis are indic people. Thus we can conclude that Pakistanis are the same as Indian Punjabis which if I’m not mistaken make between 3 to 5 percent of India and no way Pakistani are the same as Indian! Pakistan although her official culture/language is Indic but historically it’s a melting pot of Indic and Iranic culture.



No doubt pakistani punjabis are the same as indian punjabis and obviously there is a lot of diversity between the provinces of pakistan itself but you conveniently seem to skip over the analysis of afghans and pashtuns under the same lens. It can just as easily be said that the nation-state of Afghanistan's borders surround a fault line between three cultures--Persian(Iranic),  Turk(Uzbek and  Turkomen)  and of course Pashtun(Indic).  So then there is nothing unique about the population of afghanistan. It is three or more cultures artifically stitched together with a common religion and two official languages everyone is encouraged to know, especially in politics. The area composing of  the three hundred year old state of afghanistan has historically been a cultural melting pot of Indic, Iranic and Turkic culture.
 

Pashtun--Indic? You need to get yourself educated… pashtons are iranic and has no culturally, racial or language linkgage to Indics.  More then 85% of Afghans are regarded as an Iranian people. (Note: This has nothing to do with Citizens of Iran, the neighboring country, we are talking about anthropology). The majority speak some branch of an Iranian language. Tajiks, Pashtuns, Baloch and Nuristanis are the major Iranian groups. Hazaras are non-Iranian but speak dari, an Iranian language. Uzbeks are turks, but their language and culture have been deeply influenced by the Iranian culture and language. Even Uzbek grammar has been affected by Iranian language grammar rules.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 01:09
Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Sorry to say i find this question very absurd. Indeed there is nothing unique about population called Pakistani or the country called Pakistan that can base the Pakistani identity. The same is true for Indians...it is actually religion that give both countries a form of identity. Now we can take the norm of both...majority of population of both country…in Pakistan that are Punjabis…does Punjabi are the same with Indian? Off course NOT..Punjabis specially western Punjab has lots of settlement from Afghanistan, Iran, and as for as Arabia…racially Punjabis are closer to Afghan and Iranians….although culturally Punjabis are indic people. Thus we can conclude that Pakistanis are the same as Indian Punjabis which if I’m not mistaken make between 3 to 5 percent of India and no way Pakistani are the same as Indian! Pakistan although her official culture/language is Indic but historically it’s a melting pot of Indic and Iranic culture.



No doubt pakistani punjabis are the same as indian punjabis and obviously there is a lot of diversity between the provinces of pakistan itself but you conveniently seem to skip over the analysis of afghans and pashtuns under the same lens. It can just as easily be said that the nation-state of Afghanistan's borders surround a fault line between three cultures--Persian(Iranic),  Turk(Uzbek and  Turkomen)  and of course Pashtun(Indic).  So then there is nothing unique about the population of afghanistan. It is three or more cultures artifically stitched together with a common religion and two official languages everyone is encouraged to know, especially in politics. The area composing of  the three hundred year old state of afghanistan has historically been a cultural melting pot of Indic, Iranic and Turkic culture.
 

Pashtun--Indic? You need to get yourself educated… pashtons are iranic and has no culturally, racial or language linkgage to Indics.  More then 85% of Afghans are regarded as an Iranian people. (Note: This has nothing to do with Citizens of Iran, the neighboring country, we are talking about anthropology). The majority speak some branch of an Iranian language. Tajiks, Pashtuns, Baloch and Nuristanis are the major Iranian groups. Hazaras are non-Iranian but speak dari, an Iranian language. Uzbeks are turks, but their language and culture have been deeply influenced by the Iranian culture and language. Even Uzbek grammar has been affected by Iranian language grammar rules.



Dude out of the three linguistc groups in that area, pashtuns-turks-parsiwans, which one of these three is going to have the most indic admixture? LOL I will give you a hint: it is the group that inhabits the easternmost parts of Afghanistan and the group that claims that most of its "lost kin" are scattered all over "PakhtunKhwa" in Western Pakistan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 03:04
Pashtuns, Maqsad are an Iranic people.
 
We were always discussing based on cultural (anthropological) variables, not geographic variables.
 
Because Lakshi Mittal moved to Britain doesnt make him Anglo-Greco-Roman. He is still Indic. Same way, Pakistan is mostly Indic, although it is also containing elements of Irani and Turkic (who happen more or less to fall under Irani).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 12:14
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Pashtuns, Maqsad are an Iranic people.
 


I'm simply saying pashtuns have more indic blood in them than do parsiwans and turcs in afghanistan. I am also saying pakistani pashtuns have more indic blood in them than afghan pashtuns. I am also saying afghan pashtuns have more altaic blood in them than do pakistani pashtuns. Do you disagree with any of this?

Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

We were always discussing based on cultural (anthropological) variables, not geographic variables.


I am not sure of your definition of cultural. Is cultural = genetic for you? Because I always thought culture was genetics + crowd psychology + history + language + literature + customs + religion. Anthropology to me is generally associated with biology and physique not culture.

Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

 
Because Lakshi Mittal moved to Britain doesnt make him Anglo-Greco-Roman. He is still Indic. Same way, Pakistan is mostly Indic, although it is also containing elements of Irani and Turkic (who happen more or less to fall under Irani).


LOL dude, laxmi mittal was born in india and then moved to the UK. Of course he is not going to shapeshift into an Anglo-Saxon viking within a few years, I never said that. When I talk about people like the mughals such as supposedly ahmed shah baba was? Then we are not just talking a few years but rather quite a few generations. Now if your geography changes and you intermarry like many royal families do then what do you think, geography doesn't factor in? Here is a picture of the last mughal emperor of India. Connect the dots for yourself, and no he doesn't look Indic because of heat exposure:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 06:45
My definition of cultural is the anthropologic definition based on linguistics, self governing patterns, art forms, and other vestiges of culture. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 20:07
Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Sorry to say i find this question very absurd. Indeed there is nothing unique about population called Pakistani or the country called Pakistan that can base the Pakistani identity. The same is true for Indians...it is actually religion that give both countries a form of identity. Now we can take the norm of both...majority of population of both country…in Pakistan that are Punjabis…does Punjabi are the same with Indian? Off course NOT..Punjabis specially western Punjab has lots of settlement from Afghanistan, Iran, and as for as Arabia…racially Punjabis are closer to Afghan and Iranians….although culturally Punjabis are indic people. Thus we can conclude that Pakistanis are the same as Indian Punjabis which if I’m not mistaken make between 3 to 5 percent of India and no way Pakistani are the same as Indian! Pakistan although her official culture/language is Indic but historically it’s a melting pot of Indic and Iranic culture.



No doubt pakistani punjabis are the same as indian punjabis and obviously there is a lot of diversity between the provinces of pakistan itself but you conveniently seem to skip over the analysis of afghans and pashtuns under the same lens. It can just as easily be said that the nation-state of Afghanistan's borders surround a fault line between three cultures--Persian(Iranic),  Turk(Uzbek and  Turkomen)  and of course Pashtun(Indic).  So then there is nothing unique about the population of afghanistan. It is three or more cultures artifically stitched together with a common religion and two official languages everyone is encouraged to know, especially in politics. The area composing of  the three hundred year old state of afghanistan has historically been a cultural melting pot of Indic, Iranic and Turkic culture.
 

Pashtun--Indic? You need to get yourself educated… pashtons are iranic and has no culturally, racial or language linkgage to Indics.  More then 85% of Afghans are regarded as an Iranian people. (Note: This has nothing to do with Citizens of Iran, the neighboring country, we are talking about anthropology). The majority speak some branch of an Iranian language. Tajiks, Pashtuns, Baloch and Nuristanis are the major Iranian groups. Hazaras are non-Iranian but speak dari, an Iranian language. Uzbeks are turks, but their language and culture have been deeply influenced by the Iranian culture and language. Even Uzbek grammar has been affected by Iranian language grammar rules.



Dude out of the three linguistc groups in that area, pashtuns-turks-parsiwans, which one of these three is going to have the most indic admixture? LOL I will give you a hint: it is the group that inhabits the easternmost parts of Afghanistan and the group that claims that most of its "lost kin" are scattered all over "PakhtunKhwa" in Western Pakistan.
 

More indic admixture? Just because pashton are neighbor of indic people does not mean they are indic people. You are argument in this regard suffer from deep Fallacy Of Composition. The fact still remains that Pashtonwal and Farsiwan and even some Turkic speakers are all generally part of same race. The Irano-Afghan race.
 
 
 
The Irano-Afghan race; Iran and Afghanistan


In the previous section we have seen that the Arabs proper belong almost without exception to the most typical and most highly evolved form of the Mediterranean race. The Mesopotamians, on the other hand, represent a blend or a transitional form between the taller Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Irano-Afghan race, while the Arabic-speaking peoples on either side of the Persian Gulf contain a large contingent of a short, roundheaded, laterally built, maritime population which has played a considerable part in the history of Arabian navigation. The Irano-Afghan race, prominent since Sumerian times in Mesopotamia, is the chief population element in the entire highland territory from the western border of Iran to northern India. In the present section we shall deal primarily with the peoples of this mountain area who speak various forms of Iranian and allied Indo-European languages. Map 12 shows the general distribution of these Iranian-speaking peoples, and of their neighbors.19

The languages of Iranian type spoken in this part of the world may be divided into three sub-groups—(a) western Iranian or Persian; (b) eastern Iranian, which includes Pushtu and Baluchi; (c) Dardic, an ill-defined group of Satem dialects closely related to Iranian, but probably not to be included as a branch of the general Iranian stock. Its relationship is parallel to Iranian rather than derivative.

 

 
 
 

 

 MAP 12
The distribution of Iranian languages

 

The Iranian languages, Persian, Afghan Pushtu, Pathan Pushtu, Baluchi, and Tajik, as well as the closely related Dardic, including Kafiri, have been left unstippled. One Iranian language, Ossetian, which is spoken in the Caucasus, is not shown here. Sanskrit derivatives are indicated by large dots, and non-Indo-European languages by other stipples. The linguistic boundaries are not exact, since the purpose of the map is instruction and clarity rather than technical accuracy. The boundary between Persian and Pushtu is actually vague, since the two languages overlap widely.

 


The present kingdom of Iran, formerly called Persia, is for the most part occupied by Persian-speaking peoples. In the northwest, the Azerbaijani Turkish speech of the eastern Caucasus is the commonest medium, while groups of Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Kurds are also found in this part of Iranian territory. The southern shore of the Caspian Sea is somewhat of a linguistic medley, with small groups of Turkish speakers, while the whole northeastern border country of the Iranian kingdom stretching east of the Caspian is occupied by Turkomans, who continue over into northern Afghanistan. The valley of the Oxus River in northwestern Afghanistan is really Afghan Turkestan.

In the eastern part of the Iranian kingdom, in Khorassan, one finds not only Persians, but also Pushtu-speaking Afghans. The whole southeastern corner of Iran is occupied by Baluchis, who reach nearly as far west as the seaport of Bandar Abbas, which lies just east of the Arabics-peaking town of Lenja. This southeastern section occupied by Baluchis is called Persian Makran. These Baluchis are part of the western Baluchi group, which also occupies most of Baluchistan. They are separated from the eastern Baluchis by groups of Indian speakers and by the non-Indo Brahui.

In northern Afghanistan, immediately south of the Turki area, lies the inaccessible mountain territory of the Kafir, a curiously primitive group of Dardic speakers, who resisted the attempts of the Afghans to convert them to Islam until early in the present century. These Kafirs are divided into strictly segregated social classes, representing conquerors and aborigines. The conquering groups speak various Dardic dialects, while it is said that some of the aboriginal peoples belonging to socially inferior clans and villages speak non-Indo-European languages. The exact nature of these languages, however, has not yet been determined To the east of Kafiristan is the Hunza country, north of Gilgit, where a number of languages of apparently Caucasic affinity are spoken. The best known of these is Burushaski.20 Other languages spoken in the Tibetan Himalayas may be related to this same linguistic family.

The Pathan group is divided into two main sub-divisions. One is that of the western Pathans, or Afghans proper, who live in the country which extends from beyond the Iranian border to Jallalabad, and includes the territory of Kabul and the plains of Kandahar. The eastern Pathans occupy the northeastern part of Baluchistan, including the Suleiman Mountain range, and the southern two-thirds of the Northwestern Frontier Province of India. These eastern Pathans include the Pathans proper, the Afridis, the Mohmands, and the Waziris.

In the Hazara Jat of central Afghanistan, southwest of Kabul and southeast of Herat, lives an isolated body of Turkish-speaking people who are historically and racially of Mongol origin, being a remnant of the great Mongol expansion of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. These Hazara have tended to be endogamous, and have had little influence on the physical type of the Iranian-speaking peoples.

Outside of the area which we shall discuss in this chapter, but included on Map 12, are the Tajiks, sedentary agricultural peoples of Iranian speech who live in the mountains of northwesternmost Afghanistan and adjoining parts of Russian Turkestan. They are descended from an early sedentary population of the Turkestan plains area, which was driven into the mountains by the inroads of Turkish-speaking peoples, who now occupy most of the Turkestan plain. Racially, the Tajiks are predominantly Alpine, and therefore will be discussed in the next chapter.

Let us first consider the racial characters of the Persians themselves. Very little has been published about the physical anthropology of this people, but, with the help of unpublished material, it is possible to make a number of reasonably accurate generalizations about their physical type.21

In the first place, they belong as a group to the Irano-Afghan branch of the Mediterranean race. Their stature varies regionally from about 164 to 169 cm., and thus ranges from medium to moderately tall. The relative sitting height is in most groups low, indicating that the long legged, short-bodied condition of the Mediterraneans seen in Arabia is also prevalent here. The cephalic index is usually low, ranging from 73 to 76 in different groups, although one mountain tribe, the Bakhtiari, is brachycephalic.21 The actual head dimensions are slightly greater than those among Yemenis, but of typically Mediterranean proportions. The mean head lengths range about the 190 mm. mark, and the head breadths about 141 or 142 mm. The faces are similar in breadth to those of Arabs, but the bigonial diameters are greater, ranging between 105 and 110 mm.; the faces are, at the same time, variable in length, but, on the whole, longer than those found in most parts of Arabia. Facial indices are leptoprosopic, upper facial indices leptene, and the noses are markedly leptorrhine, and usually convex in profile. As photographs of these people show, the jaw is frequently deeper and heavier than is the case among Arabs.

Although the Persians derive their language from Nordics who entered the Iranian plateau from the plains to the north, there is little evidence of Nordic blood in the population except as it appears rarely among individuals. Pigmentation is prevailingly dark. The hair color is usually black or dark brown, with a minority of reddish-brown and brown tints among certain isolated groups such as the Lurs in eastern Iran. Eye color is usually dark brown, but the usual minority of mixed eyes is characteristic, and is especially marked among the Lurs.

In addition to the Bakhtiari, there are small enclaves of brachycephalic peoples in Iran, particularly in the cities, but the population as a whole is long-headed. Persian brachycephaly may have been derived from two sources, from the Alpines and Armenoids to the north, and from the Baluchis to the south. The Bakhtiari say that their ancestors came from the Lebanon country in Syria.

The published information upon the physical type of the Afghans is even scantier than that from Persia, but again we may fortunately draw upon unpublished information.23 These Afghans and Pathans are in most respects as similar to the Persians as they are to each other. The Afghans, however, are shorter than the Pathans, since the former have a mean stature of 163 cm. and the latter of 170 cm. The body build of both people is slight to intermediate. A relative sitting height of 52.6 found among Afghanis is close to that of Europeans, while most of the Pathans fall a point lower. The heads of these people range in length from 188 to 192 mm. by tribes, and in breadth from 141 to 145 mm. The cephalic indices of the Afghanis and Pathans vary between tribal means of 72 and 75; except for the Khattak and Bangash, who live in proximity to the Baluchis, and who have a mean of 77. The vault height of all of these peoples is quite low, with means of 121 to 123 mm. Faces are usually long, reaching a maximum mean of 129 mm. among the Afridis, and are at the same time only moderately narrow, with bizygomatic means of 135 to 137 mm. Foreheads and jaws are of moderate dimensions; 104 mm. is the usual mean for the minimum frontal, and 103 mm. for the bigonial.

In the total face height and the three facial breadths, these Pathan speakers cannot be distinguished from Nordics. The upper face height, however, serves as a means of differentiation, since it is extremely long; and the noses, at the same time, reach the extreme length of 61 mm. Their mean facial index of 94 and upper facial index of 56 place these people in an extremely long- and narrow-faced category, while the nasal index of 61 confirms their extreme leptorrhiny.

If one compares these measurements with those from the Yemen on the one hand and from the eastern provinces of Norway on the other, one sees that the Iranian-speakers are much closer to the Nordic mean than to that of the normal Mediterraneans. The head dimensions of the Afghans and Pathans are slightly smaller than those of Nordics, and the vault height is lower,24 but the facial dimensions are essentially similar, except that the upper face and nose heights of the Afghans and Pathans are greater.

The Afghans and Pathans, like the Persians, are usually brunet, and at the same time show a persistent minority of blondism, which in this case reflects Nordic admixture. They are heavy-bearded, and possess heavy body hair. Their facial features show a maximum of bony relief, and, on the whole, their facial skeletons seem much heavier and much more strongly marked than those of the more delicate Arabian Mediterraneans. They possess, in common with the Arabian Mediterranean group, a sharpness in definition of feature which stands in contrast to the coarser lineaments of the average Mesopotamian countenance.

In respect to the Dardic group, we have a certain amount of published and unpublished information which will be useful here.25

The Kafirs of the Kati tribe, who live in the easternmost section of Kafiristan, are taller and larger-headed than the Pathans, but still essentially dolichocephalic and leptorrhine.26 They seem also to possess a high ratio of blondism. Like the Pathans, their commonest skin color is a medium brunet white, von Luschan #9, but in hair and eye color they seem to be lighter than the Pushtu-speaking peoples. Thirty-four per cent have mixed or light eyes, as opposed to 20 per cent of Pushtus. Their hair color, according to Stein, is blond or light brown in 28 per cent of the group.27

It would seem that the upper class of the Kafirs contains a much larger proportion of the invading, Indo-European-speaking Nordic type than is found among the Persians and Afghans. This is not surprising, since Kafiristan is essentially a refuge area. The lower classes of the Kafiri population seem to be shorter in stature, somewhat smaller-headed, and may perhaps be broader-nosed.28

Other Dardic-speaking peoples, studied by Ujfalvy, are of moderate stature, with means between 163 and 166 cm., dolicho- to mesocephallc, with mean cephalic indices of 76, and moderately leptorrhine, with a nasal index mean of 64. The pigmentation is usually brunet, with a minority of blondism, the beards heavy, and the hair form wavy. On the whole, judging from present material, the Dardic-speakers seem to the be essentially the same as the Afghans and Pathans, with the addition of a strong Nordic element among some of the Kafirs, and a smaller, essentially Mediterranean factor among the lower classes of the same population.

The non-Indo-European-speaking Burushaski of Hunza, measured by Dixon, may be compared to the Dardic-speaking peoples. The mean stature of 92 Burushaski is 168 cm., the head length 190 mm., its breadth 146 mm., and the cephalic index 77. Facially the Burushaski seem likewise to resemble the Dardic-speakers,29 and both are essentially Irano-Afghan in racial type. This type is apparently the autochthonous element in the southern slopes of the western Himalayas, as well as in the plateau of Iran and Afghanistan. The invasion of the Iranian ancestors, who brought Indo-European speech to this plateau and mountain country, seems to have had little lasting racial affect, except in Kafiristan. (STOP)

Before leaving the subject of Iranian-speaking peoples in the western Asiatic highlands, let us return to the northwestern end of this area, and consider the Kurds, who are thought to be the descendants of the Karduchoi encountered by Xenophon and his ten thousand in their march from Persia to the Black Sea.

The present-day Kurds are partial or complete nomads who graze their flocks in the three countries of Iraq, Iran, and Turkey, and who, owing to their warlike activities, have been periodically ejected from each. They are tall men, with a mean stature which, although variable by tribal groups, lies usually between 168 and 170 cm.30 The mean cephalic index of Kurdish tribesmen measured in Kurdistan and the Caucasic region is consistently 77 or 78; the Kurds have preserved their dolichocephaly intact. Their pigmentation is for the most part brunet, although there is a distinct blond minority which, as with the Riffians, has led travellers to describe the Kurds, as a whole, as blond; their nasal profiles are usually convex or straight, and their total metrical character, so far as it is known, indicates that they are a mixture between the Irano-Afghan racial type described earlier in this section and the ancestral Iranian Nordics, with a larger minority of the latter factor than is usual in Iran. Culturally racially they have conserved the ancestral type with more fidelity than the majority of their linguistic brethren. It is particularly remarkable that, living in close proximity to pronounced brachycephals in Anatolia, Armenia, and the Caucasus, the majority of them have preserved their ancient dolichocephaly.

All groups of Kurds, however, have not fully escaped this brachycephalization. The Bilikani Kurds, who live among Armenians near Erivan, have a mean cephalic index of 84; others, who live in northeastern Iraq and who are fully sedentary, have been altered to a lesser extent through admixture. A small sample measured at Kirkuk has a cephalic index mean of 82, and a mean stature of 170 cm.; despite the change in head form the facial dimensions remain both long and narrow; the facial index of 93 is leptoprosopic, the nasal index of 60 on the lower border of leptorrhiny. The Kurdish facial features are more persistent than the Kurdish head form.

 


Notes:

19 I am indebted to Dr. Gordon T. Bowles for help in preparing both the map and this summary.

20
See p. 175.

21
I am deeply indebted to Dr. Henry Field for permission to summarize his unpublished series of 52 Lurs, 46 men from Yezd-i-Khast, and 73 from Kinareh. Older references include
Chantre, E., BSAP, vol. 14, 1895, pp. 26—29.
Danilov, N. P., IILE, vol. 88, 1894, Cols. 1—147.
Houssay, M., BSAL, vol. 16, 1887, pp. 101—148.
Khanikoff, N., Mémoire sur l’Ethnographie de la Perse.

22 Kappers, A. C. U., The Anthropology of the Near East.

23 Dr. Gordon T. Bowles, who measured some 6000 adult males in the country running between eastern Afghanistan and Burma, all of whom were inhabitants of the Himalayan foothills and valleys, and of the adjacent Tibetan plateau, has kindly given me his permission to draw upon his series of 40 Afghanis from the Jillalabad plain, 40 Afridis, 42 Mohmands, and 40 Khattak and Bangash. With the addition of 6 Gilzais, this makes a total series of 168 Pushtu speakers from Afghanistan. Published data from this region may be found in the Ethnographic Survey of India, Calcutta, 1909. (See Anonymous, Anthropometric Data from Baluchistan.

24
Early Nordic crania from Turkestan and from Armenia are low-vaulted. See pp. 169—170, 201.

25 Dixon, R. B., a series of 92 Burushaskis of Hunza, seriated by the author and published by B. S. Guha, in Census of India.
Guha, B. S., Census of India.
Joyce, T. A., JRAI, vol. 42, 1912, pp. 450—484.
Ujfalvy, K. E. von, Aus dem westilichen Himalaja.
Also unpublished materal of Dr. Bowles.
 
26 Guha’s data on the Red Kafirs presented in his 1931 Census of India volume includes no exact figures, aside from observation percentages. Guha, op. cit., p. xviii.

27 Stein, Sir Aurel, Serindia, Appendix C, vol. 3, pp. 1387—1388.

28 Joyce’s series of 18 Kafirs has the relatively short stature mean of 167 cm., a cephalic index of 76.9. His facial measurements appear unreliable.

29 The low facial and high nasal indices given by Dixon are apparently the result of a mistake in locating nasion.

30 Chantre, E., Récherches anthropologiques dans l’Asie Occidentale.
Ehrich, R. W., unpublished series in Peabody Museum.
Kappers, C. U. A., and Parr, L. W., An Introduction to the Anthropology of the Near East.
Nassonoff N. W., IILE, vol. 68, 1890, pp. 400—401, résumé in AFA, vol. 24, 1896, pp. 646-647
 

 

 

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You can add copy & pasting to the warning I just gave you too.
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Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:


Dude out of the three linguistc groups in that area, pashtuns-turks-parsiwans, which one of these three is going to have the most indic admixture? LOL I will give you a hint: it is the group that inhabits the easternmost parts of Afghanistan and the group that claims that most of its "lost kin" are scattered all over "PakhtunKhwa" in Western Pakistan.
 

More indic admixture? Just because pashton are neighbor of indic people does not mean they are indic people. You are argument in this regard suffer from deep Fallacy Of Composition. The fact still remains that Pashtonwal and Farsiwan and even some Turkic speakers are all generally part of same race. The Irano-Afghan race.


Where oh where did I say that "pashton are Indic People"? What I said was Pashto speakers in Afghanistan/Pakistan have more "indic genes" in them than either of the other two groups I mentioned. The turkic afghans are more recent arrivals from central asia, further north of afghanistan, and in general have more mongoloid and "slavic" admixture than does the average afghan. The farsiwans generally live in areas further away from punjab, sindh and balochistan so they would be less exposed to admixture from those areas. LOL you think just speaking a language can change someone into a member of this "Irano-Afghan race". You do know the history of the region I presume.

And if you have ever been to cities like Peshawar, Quetta, Mardan etc and looked at Afghan refugees and compared them to the native "Irano-Afghan" population you would be able to put two and two together.  But we all know what your real agenda is, to seduce western pakis into this mysterious "Irano-Afghan race" to soften them up for a future annexation by Afghanistan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 22:18
Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

[QUOTE=maqsad]
Dude out of the three linguistc groups in that area, pashtuns-turks-parsiwans, which one of these three is going to have the most indic admixture? LOL I will give you a hint: it is the group that inhabits the easternmost parts of Afghanistan and the group that claims that most of its "lost kin" are scattered all over "PakhtunKhwa" in Western Pakistan.
 

More indic admixture? Just because pashton are neighbor of indic people does not mean they are indic people. You are argument in this regard suffer from deep Fallacy Of Composition. The fact still remains that Pashtonwal and Farsiwan and even some Turkic speakers are all generally part of same race. The Irano-Afghan race.
[/QUOT
Where oh where did I say that "pashton are Indic People"? What I said was Pashto speakers in Afghanistan/Pakistan have more "indic genes" in them than either of the other two groups I mentioned. The turkic afghans are more recent arrivals from central asia, further north of afghanistan, and in general have more mongoloid and "slavic" admixture than does the average afghan. The farsiwans generally live in areas further away from punjab, sindh and balochistan so they would be less exposed to admixture from those areas. LOL you think just speaking a language can change someone into a member of this "Irano-Afghan race". You do know the history of the region I presume.

And if you have ever been to cities like Peshawar, Quetta, Mardan etc and looked at Afghan refugees and compared them to the native "Irano-Afghan" population you would be able to put two and two together.  But we all know what your real agenda is, to seduce western pakis into this mysterious "Irano-Afghan race" to soften them up for a future annexation by Afghanistan.

 

You are claiming contradictory thing... if Pashtons are not indic as you rightly point out then its simple absurd to claim they have "more Indic genes." Are you trying to imply that Pashtons have more in common with Indic people then their own iranic people? If not then wth is the point? It’s a fact that Pashton, Bloch, Tajik, Kurds and Persian not only share culture/language but are part of same race---The Irano-Afghan race.  

As for as these area being annexation by Afghanistan….last time I check the people have no regard to imaginary artificial line called Durand…so it really does not matter what Kabul or Islamabad think in paper.. In practice the bound of people to each other were and are strong and it will always remain strong for blood will always be thicker than water. Indeed sooner our Punjabi brother and sister understand and accept these simple fact the better it will be for whole people of region….indeed by understanding and accept this we can be able to move on to a better future for our children…other then promoting, encouraging and imposing ignorant savages like Taliban under pretext of strategic depth so Afghan nationalism is undermine…or the shameful exploitation of deprived and brutalized Afghan youths nurtured in your refugee ghettos and indoctrinated in Pakistani immoral “madrassahs” so to wage pakistani precious army’s wars against India and Afghanistan. Seriously how you Pakistan can pretend valour in place of what is otherwise a stupendous display of national cowardice is a charm only Pakistanis can lay claim to.

Over all you need to ask you self.. other then hundred of millions going in to bank account of your precious generals and politician what good these “strategic depth” have given you Pakistani as people? The drug and gun culture?  You need to move above fake patriotism of oo Afghanistan want to get back NWFP and Balochistan---a land and people that rightfully belong to Afghanistan to began with. Indeed after all this blood and cry… 14 years of Soviet occupation and other 14 years of wet dream of Strategic depth…and imposed civil war Afghanistan did survived intact and there has never been a secessionist/separatist movement or political group in Afghanistan history….what will Pakistan do when she get a taste of her own medicine? Ha?  Mind you pakistan has ten times more population then Afghanistan so wait and see for nature justice will reach your rulers and sadly innocent Pakistanis will die too in thousands.

 

Allah ke Darbar me Dahr e Andeer Nahee Big%20smile

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Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:


Dude out of the three linguistc groups in that area, pashtuns-turks-parsiwans, which one of these three is going to have the most indic admixture? LOL I will give you a hint: it is the group that inhabits the easternmost parts of Afghanistan and the group that claims that most of its "lost kin" are scattered all over "PakhtunKhwa" in Western Pakistan.
 

More indic admixture? Just because pashton are neighbor of indic people does not mean they are indic people. You are argument in this regard suffer from deep Fallacy Of Composition. The fact still remains that Pashtonwal and Farsiwan and even some Turkic speakers are all generally part of same race. The Irano-Afghan race.


Where oh where did I say that "pashton are Indic People"? What I said was Pashto speakers in Afghanistan/Pakistan have more "indic genes" in them than either of the other two groups I mentioned. The turkic afghans are more recent arrivals from central asia, further north of afghanistan, and in general have more mongoloid and "slavic" admixture than does the average afghan. The farsiwans generally live in areas further away from punjab, sindh and balochistan so they would be less exposed to admixture from those areas. LOL you think just speaking a language can change someone into a member of this "Irano-Afghan race". You do know the history of the region I presume.

And if you have ever been to cities like Peshawar, Quetta, Mardan etc and looked at Afghan refugees and compared them to the native "Irano-Afghan" population you would be able to put two and two together.  But we all know what your real agenda is, to seduce western pakis into this mysterious "Irano-Afghan race" to soften them up for a future annexation by Afghanistan.

 

You are claiming contradictory thing... if Pashtons are not indic as you rightly point out then its simple absurd to claim they have "more Indic genes." Are you trying to imply that Pashtons have more in common with Indic people then their own iranic people? If not then wth is the point? It’s a fact that Pashton, Bloch, Tajik, Kurds and Persian not only share culture/language but are part of same race---The Irano-Afghan race.  

As for as these area being annexation by Afghanistan….last time I check the people have no regard to imaginary artificial line called Durand…so it really does not matter what Kabul or Islamabad think in paper.. In practice the bound of people to each other were and are strong and it will always remain strong for blood will always be thicker than water. Indeed sooner our Punjabi brother and sister understand and accept these simple fact the better it will be for whole people of region….indeed by understanding and accept this we can be able to move on to a better future for our children…other then promoting, encouraging and imposing ignorant savages like Taliban under pretext of strategic depth so Afghan nationalism is undermine…or the shameful exploitation of deprived and brutalized Afghan youths nurtured in your refugee ghettos and indoctrinated in Pakistani immoral “madrassahs” so to wage pakistani precious army’s wars against India and Afghanistan. Seriously how you Pakistan can pretend valour in place of what is otherwise a stupendous display of national cowardice is a charm only Pakistanis can lay claim to.

Over all you need to ask you self.. other then hundred of millions going in to bank account of your precious generals and politician what good these “strategic depth” have given you Pakistani as people? The drug and gun culture?  You need to move above fake patriotism of oo Afghanistan want to get back NWFP and Balochistan---a land and people that rightfully belong to Afghanistan to began with. Indeed after all this blood and cry… 14 years of Soviet occupation and other 14 years of wet dream of Strategic depth…and imposed civil war Afghanistan did survived intact and there has never been a secessionist/separatist movement or political group in Afghanistan history….what will Pakistan do when she get a taste of her own medicine? Ha?  Mind you pakistan has ten times more population then Afghanistan so wait and see for nature justice will reach your rulers and sadly innocent Pakistanis will die too in thousands.

 

Allah ke Darbar me Dahr e Andeer Nahee Big%20smile



True Afghan aka Afghanan aka M**** I don't know how to put it to you in clearer terms. The land that Afghanistan wants to annex based on it being populated by "the Irano-Afghan race" is not populated by genetic replicas of these mysterious homogenous "Afghans". If you go to Peshawar the people will look very different from the people in Kandahar, Mazare-Sharif or Helmand.  Peshawaris look closer to people in Rawalpindi than they do people in Kabul or even Jalalabad. The only reason Afghanistan has a chance in hell of annexing those areas is language. A common language. Nothing else.

You and other Afghan nationalists are obsessed with this ridiculous campaign based on race which is such a joke I don't know where to begin. Why don't you hand over northern Afghanistan to Kyrgyzistan..give Helmand over to Iran and then don't forget to hand over Hazarajat to Mongolia. LOL Oh and of course give over Kabul, Jalalabad and other areas over to Pakistan? I mean there are so many people in Jalalabad that look more like Hindkos than "Irano-Afghan race members" so I think they should be expelled. Maybe some areas like Kandahar and Ghazni might be populated by perfect members of this phenotype so you can keep them but make sure the other 80% of Afghanistan is given back to its rightful owners. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 04:03
an interesting twist in the development of this post.. Being a Pashtun from Pakistan for as far back along our family tree as I know and acknowledging my ''Afghan'' heritage, this doesnt necessarily mean i want to participate in any scheme whereby Pashtunkwa regions join up with afghanistan, a plan meant to hold Pashtuns back, and limit our sphere of influence.  If anything, looking at statistics and the fact that there are huge Pashtun settlements in almost all of Pakistan's major urban settlements (Karachi- @ 3-4 million) not to mention in Balochistan, in Panjab and Kashmir, Pakistan has technically become the homeland of Pashtuns as their are more Pashtuns in Pakistan estimated at 32-35 million versus probably 1/3 that (@ 8-10million) in Afghanistan.  If anything, Pashtun areas of Afghanistan should if anything join up with Pakistan which does technically make more sense.. this is the view promoted by Farsiwan nationalists yearning for a new Khorasan in Afghanistan ironically and not by Pakistan itself.  Furthermore, Pashtuns have the highest birth rate in Pakistan and unlike their ethnic kinsmen in Afghanistan, are experiencing an educational, economic, social boom despite all the turmoil and spill over effects of the region and this process has been taking place since Pakistan's inception.  Statistics wise, the NWFP region has progressed at a faster rate, more so than any other of Pakistan's provinces and has the lowest incidence of poverty overall versus any other province;  Many people in Pakistan's tribal areas including my region want full integration of our regions and the removal of the current FATA designation as we want to be entitled to our full rights as well, we have also contributed much to this nation and dont understand why our regions are still treated as ''Tribal'' regions. 
Their is a synergistic effect taking place in Pakistan whereby the national Pakistani identity is being promoted throughout the nation with its multicultural flare (of Sindhi, panjabi, Pashtun, Gilgiti, Balochi etc..) and as a result of this national cultural decimation, a Pashtun culture is also being promoted throughout the country via the very same mechanism.
 
Going back to the point of this thread, a point often overlooked is the history of Panjab itself whereby a fertile region which attracted a diverse plethora of ethnic groups from far off places along with what was most definately a native ''Indus River'' people intermixed and co-existed, they eventually developed a common culture but the considerable ethnic difference continue to exist within the Panjab province to this day, my point in saying this is that its too much of an oversimplification to state that ''all panjabi's are the same'' especially when you take a panjabi from the western part of Pakistani panjab and compare him to say one from the eastern most part of indian Sikh panjab, even there, some difference will still be appreciated.
 
Pakistan is a country much like Turkey in that it is surrounded by various distinct regions on top of its own rich indigenous and often underappreciated, Unique history.  To label it in a general sense as belonging only to one region or the other will result in failure and a profound underappreaciation of the uniqueness this country has.  Its entails looking at the country from a historical viewpoint whereby a native indus river people absorbed, lived or in more recent times were forced to co-exist with such diverse people(s) as Turks, Mongols, Afghans, Dards, Balochi's, Pakhtuns(eastern), Panjabi's, Sindhi's, Arabs, Tajiks, Central Asians, South Asians-bangla, burmese, gangetic indians like mohajirs, Kashmiri's, Anglo-Saxons and many many more came to the focal point on either banks of the fertile Indus river and called it their home.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 16:00
Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

Originally posted by True Afghan True Afghan wrote:

Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:


Dude out of the three linguistc groups in that area, pashtuns-turks-parsiwans, which one of these three is going to have the most indic admixture? LOL I will give you a hint: it is the group that inhabits the easternmost parts of Afghanistan and the group that claims that most of its "lost kin" are scattered all over "PakhtunKhwa" in Western Pakistan.
 

More indic admixture? Just because pashton are neighbor of indic people does not mean they are indic people. You are argument in this regard suffer from deep Fallacy Of Composition. The fact still remains that Pashtonwal and Farsiwan and even some Turkic speakers are all generally part of same race. The Irano-Afghan race.


Where oh where did I say that "pashton are Indic People"? What I said was Pashto speakers in Afghanistan/Pakistan have more "indic genes" in them than either of the other two groups I mentioned. The turkic afghans are more recent arrivals from central asia, further north of afghanistan, and in general have more mongoloid and "slavic" admixture than does the average afghan. The farsiwans generally live in areas further away from punjab, sindh and balochistan so they would be less exposed to admixture from those areas. LOL you think just speaking a language can change someone into a member of this "Irano-Afghan race". You do know the history of the region I presume.

And if you have ever been to cities like Peshawar, Quetta, Mardan etc and looked at Afghan refugees and compared them to the native "Irano-Afghan" population you would be able to put two and two together.  But we all know what your real agenda is, to seduce western pakis into this mysterious "Irano-Afghan race" to soften them up for a future annexation by Afghanistan.

 

You are claiming contradictory thing... if Pashtons are not indic as you rightly point out then its simple absurd to claim they have "more Indic genes." Are you trying to imply that Pashtons have more in common with Indic people then their own iranic people? If not then wth is the point? It’s a fact that Pashton, Bloch, Tajik, Kurds and Persian not only share culture/language but are part of same race---The Irano-Afghan race.  

As for as these area being annexation by Afghanistan….last time I check the people have no regard to imaginary artificial line called Durand…so it really does not matter what Kabul or Islamabad think in paper.. In practice the bound of people to each other were and are strong and it will always remain strong for blood will always be thicker than water. Indeed sooner our Punjabi brother and sister understand and accept these simple fact the better it will be for whole people of region….indeed by understanding and accept this we can be able to move on to a better future for our children…other then promoting, encouraging and imposing ignorant savages like Taliban under pretext of strategic depth so Afghan nationalism is undermine…or the shameful exploitation of deprived and brutalized Afghan youths nurtured in your refugee ghettos and indoctrinated in Pakistani immoral “madrassahs” so to wage pakistani precious army’s wars against India and Afghanistan. Seriously how you Pakistan can pretend valour in place of what is otherwise a stupendous display of national cowardice is a charm only Pakistanis can lay claim to.

Over all you need to ask you self.. other then hundred of millions going in to bank account of your precious generals and politician what good these “strategic depth” have given you Pakistani as people? The drug and gun culture?  You need to move above fake patriotism of oo Afghanistan want to get back NWFP and Balochistan---a land and people that rightfully belong to Afghanistan to began with. Indeed after all this blood and cry… 14 years of Soviet occupation and other 14 years of wet dream of Strategic depth…and imposed civil war Afghanistan did survived intact and there has never been a secessionist/separatist movement or political group in Afghanistan history….what will Pakistan do when she get a taste of her own medicine? Ha?  Mind you pakistan has ten times more population then Afghanistan so wait and see for nature justice will reach your rulers and sadly innocent Pakistanis will die too in thousands.

 

Allah ke Darbar me Dahr e Andeer Nahee Big%20smile



True Afghan aka Afghanan aka M**** I don't know how to put it to you in clearer terms. The land that Afghanistan wants to annex based on it being populated by "the Irano-Afghan race" is not populated by genetic replicas of these mysterious homogenous "Afghans". If you go to Peshawar the people will look very different from the people in Kandahar, Mazare-Sharif or Helmand.  Peshawaris look closer to people in Rawalpindi than they do people in Kabul or even Jalalabad. The only reason Afghanistan has a chance in hell of annexing those areas is language. A common language. Nothing else.

You and other Afghan nationalists are obsessed with this ridiculous campaign based on race which is such a joke I don't know where to begin. Why don't you hand over northern Afghanistan to Kyrgyzistan..give Helmand over to Iran and then don't forget to hand over Hazarajat to Mongolia. LOL Oh and of course give over Kabul, Jalalabad and other areas over to Pakistan? I mean there are so many people in Jalalabad that look more like Hindkos than "Irano-Afghan race members" so I think they should be expelled. Maybe some areas like Kandahar and Ghazni might be populated by perfect members of this phenotype so you can keep them but make sure the other 80% of Afghanistan is given back to its rightful owners. Wink
 
You don't deserve a reply all i have to say is enjoy you daal hallucination. LOL 

 

The problem of region is because of lack of identity of punjabi Muslim...can you name me a single punjabi that you can base you identity or history on? ha? Ranjit Sing? he was a "Kafir" Sikh. lol

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 16:12

And true Afghan you are veering closer to the abyss. That last post was the absolute last time the mods are prepared to let your nationalistic and inaccurate garbage go by.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Originally posted by MarcoPolo MarcoPolo wrote:

an interesting twist in the development of this post.. Being a Pashtun from Pakistan for as far back along our family tree as I know and acknowledging my ''Afghan'' heritage, this doesnt necessarily mean i want to participate in any scheme whereby Pashtunkwa regions join up with afghanistan, a plan meant to hold Pashtuns back, and limit our sphere of influence.  If anything, looking at statistics and the fact that there are huge Pashtun settlements in almost all of Pakistan's major urban settlements (Karachi- @ 3-4 million) not to mention in Balochistan, in Panjab and Kashmir, Pakistan has technically become the homeland of Pashtuns as their are more Pashtuns in Pakistan estimated at 32-35 million versus probably 1/3 that (@ 8-10million) in Afghanistan.  If anything, Pashtun areas of Afghanistan should if anything join up with Pakistan which does technically make more sense.. this is the view promoted by Farsiwan nationalists yearning for a new Khorasan in Afghanistan ironically and not by Pakistan itself.  Furthermore, Pashtuns have the highest birth rate in Pakistan and unlike their ethnic kinsmen in Afghanistan, are experiencing an educational, economic, social boom despite all the turmoil and spill over effects of the region and this process has been taking place since Pakistan's inception.  Statistics wise, the NWFP region has progressed at a faster rate, more so than any other of Pakistan's provinces and has the lowest incidence of poverty overall versus any other province;  Many people in Pakistan's tribal areas including my region want full integration of our regions and the removal of the current FATA designation as we want to be entitled to our full rights as well, we have also contributed much to this nation and dont understand why our regions are still treated as ''Tribal'' regions. 
Their is a synergistic effect taking place in Pakistan whereby the national Pakistani identity is being promoted throughout the nation with its multicultural flare (of Sindhi, panjabi, Pashtun, Gilgiti, Balochi etc..) and as a result of this national cultural decimation, a Pashtun culture is also being promoted throughout the country via the very same mechanism.
 
Going back to the point of this thread, a point often overlooked is the history of Panjab itself whereby a fertile region which attracted a diverse plethora of ethnic groups from far off places along with what was most definately a native ''Indus River'' people intermixed and co-existed, they eventually developed a common culture but the considerable ethnic difference continue to exist within the Panjab province to this day, my point in saying this is that its too much of an oversimplification to state that ''all panjabi's are the same'' especially when you take a panjabi from the western part of Pakistani panjab and compare him to say one from the eastern most part of indian Sikh panjab, even there, some difference will still be appreciated.
 
Pakistan is a country much like Turkey in that it is surrounded by various distinct regions on top of its own rich indigenous and often underappreciated, Unique history.  To label it in a general sense as belonging only to one region or the other will result in failure and a profound underappreaciation of the uniqueness this country has.  Its entails looking at the country from a historical viewpoint whereby a native indus river people absorbed, lived or in more recent times were forced to co-exist with such diverse people(s) as Turks, Mongols, Afghans, Dards, Balochi's, Pakhtuns(eastern), Panjabi's, Sindhi's, Arabs, Tajiks, Central Asians, South Asians-bangla, burmese, gangetic indians like mohajirs, Kashmiri's, Anglo-Saxons and many many more came to the focal point on either banks of the fertile Indus river and called it their home.
 
 

This remaind me of a Afghan say.. Che nawari Khabar wawrom Kuss mae qaza qaza Kegee! LOL...The fact is Pakistan was created for Muslims mainly of Indian cultural background based on problems and conflicts which pertained strictly with India. What did Pashtoons have to do with it? Absolutely Nothing.  Indeed there is nothing unique about Pakistan or population called Pakistani that can form their identity…race, language, culture and history!!! Off course other then Indic culture which is only limited to Sind, and Punjab!...even holy Islam is not unique to Pakistan as Judaism is to Israel.  

The thing is though that every single Pakistani claims that their forefathers were from Afghanistan or Iran or Arabia etc They never tell the truth and just admit that their forefathers were in fact Hindus that were subjugated and forced into servitude by the armies of Muslim leaders like Ghaznavi, Babur, Abdali etc.  The Pakistani inferiority complex is so deep-rooted and pitiful… even their country and fabricated history is based on blatant lies of being something they're not and belonging to something they never did. This is all due to Muslim invaders looking down on native culture and people (which was quite ironic for Indic people have one of richest culture and are very civilized.) Moghol empire Babur’s book Baburi Nama and his description of Hindustan---east of Indus river—mainly Punjab—northern India—is one example of this prejudice…After all, who are the Pakis if none other than the same servants of Mughal India.

 

Indeed comparing Pakistan a country coming to being based on religion(allegedly) and Turkey a country based on Turkish nationalism is laughable.. it seems like micopolo has deep complex of fake nationalism of an artificial nation that is Pakistan. Now if Pashtons of Pashtonistan did not ditch pakistan…in less then 3 or 4 decade they would be indicized just like those ta bandi ma bandi makani fathans of Peshawar… Over all you are just an individual and your entitle to your opinion…but the simple fact that pashton of occupied pashtonistan had not been given the right to choice their own destiny---(India or Pakistan was two choice British allow which resulted in boycott by Pashtons) or the fact that after all these years they are still kept backward and ignorant under FATA, PATA and collective punishment, and misusing these deprived and brutalized Pashton youths indoctrinated in Pakistani’s immoral “madrassahs” so to wage their precious army’s wars against India and Afghanistan. shows how much the Pakistani ruler and elites despise Pashtons.

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by True Afghan - 03-Apr-2008 at 16:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 16:43
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

And true Afghan you are veering closer to the abyss. That last post was the absolute last time the mods are prepared to let your nationalistic and inaccurate garbage go by.

 

"Nationalistic  and inaccurate garbage" ? hum you need to realize that the world is no longer back of your Pakistani Maddrassa where back of a hand was enough to shut a inquisitive minds. If you feel what I say is inaccurate then be a man and refute them…make you point. Indeed you need to realized that nationalism is what that give blacks their civil rights, it was nationalism that free most of Africa and it will be nationalism that will free pashtonistan inshallah . Now the reason you despise nationalism is because as a Pakistani you do not have a national or identity…your identity is based on religion but then even Islam is not unique to you population that can form base of you identity.(like Judaism is to Israel).

All in all I’m sorry if I hurt your feeling… the sooner you realize and accept the truth the better it will be for all of us as a Muslim or as a responsible citizen of world.

 

Cheers,

True afghan

 



Edited by True Afghan - 03-Apr-2008 at 16:46
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