History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedPakistan and Hindustan

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
Retired Global Moderator

Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 2213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistan and Hindustan
    Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 19:23
Many countries, if divided, want to be reunited again...IE, North and SOuth korea, China and Taiwan, and ect...
What is the sentiment about Pakistan and Hindustan?
Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 2424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 16:35

Quote

Many countries, if divided, want to be reunited again...IE, North and SOuth korea, China and Taiwan, and ect...
What is the sentiment about Pakistan and Hindustan?

By Hindustan, do you mean India? If that's the case then I'll say the sentiments is Nuke each other.

 

In reality though, Pakistan and India were only united because they were a colonial possession of the british, historically India should be fragmenting rather than uniting with neighboring nations.

Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
Anujkhamar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 1031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 03:20
Yes he did mean india. Indian's call india 3 things: India, Bharat, and Hindustan.

I'm not to sure on the nuking part. We only really want to nuke them when they beat us at cricket

And Janusrook, India has always been stronger united. When we were united in the past we were a superpower, but as the empire broke up into different states slowly we became weaker.

I think deep down, it's every Indian's dream for reunification. But the thng is that at the present it could never happen. We have too many disputes between us. You're more likely to see Bangladesh's accesion to india.

Currently we have the proble with a few people in pakistan which believe that all hindu's should convert, and people in india who don't want to share the same country as a few terrorists.

Reunification, is probably the only people solution to Kashmir that will work.

A few stpes are being made, e.g. discussions of a single currency.That means there won't be a pakistani rupee and an indian rupee, there'll be one common rupee in south asia.

Also,  after partition, pakistani's have tried to change themselves from indian culture. now in certain area's they act more like arab's now (no racial comment intended).

If reunification is to happen with our pakistani brothers, then it deffinatly will not happen before 2065. When the extremists leave pakistan, and there is peace for atleast 3 decades, enough to let the hard felings settle, then and only then will you see people even talk about this in public.
Back to Top
warlord View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 117
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote warlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 04:07
x

Edited by warlord - 05-Jun-2008 at 08:01
Back to Top
Anujkhamar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 1031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 08:47
actually, now after thinking about it for sometime i would have to agree with warlord. 
Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 2424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:51

Quote

And Janusrook, India has always been stronger united. When we were united in the past we were a superpower, but as the empire broke up into different states slowly we became weaker.

Your right I was forgeting super empires like the Guptas.

Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
Jhangora View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Status: Offline
Points: 1067
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:26

Janus Baby US of A had a civil war (a very bitterly fought one) not so long ago.Southern states of USA have a majority hispanic population n some people say they feel more cosy with the Mexicans n believe me Iraqis n Afghanis r not Japanese/Koreans.A majority of the citizens of USA r obese n slow witted,their knowledge of the world outside is pretty poor.Ur economy is sutained by the Chinese,Japanese,S.Koreans financing ur budget deficit,etc.etc.So I won't be surprised if the USA smashes into 10 or 15 small entities over the next 50 years.

Each super empire came to an end.Urz will too.

Jai Badri Vishal
Back to Top
Itihaas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 27-Jul-2005
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Itihaas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 21:06

Highly doubt the USA will fall any time soon. Maybe by the end of the century it will no longer be the most powerful nation but its fall is distant. And American nationalism is cohesive. Even if the USA falls, it will fall into a weak nation, but not split.

Back to Top
Rakhsh View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 23-Oct-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 07:40

Maybe but super powers come and go it is what they leave beind that matters, USA was once a leader and example for nations to follow. Now it is what other nations used to be.

Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony
Back to Top
Darkness1089 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 14-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darkness1089 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 22:45
The sentiments is quite different actually.

North/South Korea, China/Taiwan are culturally, very very similar. The only thing that holds India together is Hinduism. otherwise, North and South India, or even going from one state to another would look like going to different countries (literally).

We would like to see reunification, but we undertand that Pak, B'desh need to be purified by fire before they will accept us. We support Nepal and Sri Lanka thugh.

Back to Top
Itihaas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 27-Jul-2005
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Itihaas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 01:14

Originally posted by Darkness1089 Darkness1089 wrote:

The sentiments is quite different actually.

North/South Korea, China/Taiwan are culturally, very very similar. The only thing that holds India together is Hinduism. otherwise, North and South India, or even going from one state to another would look like going to different countries (literally).

We would like to see reunification, but we undertand that Pak, B'desh need to be purified by fire before they will accept us. We support Nepal and Sri Lanka thugh.

Nepal really needs to unite with us. A unification with India would eliminate the royal family and hence end the maoist rebellions. The people will see peace finally and hence support unification with India.

Sri Lanka is in the middle of a civil war, the lasting thing we need is Tamilians fighting India and Sri Lanka for Tamil Nadu and Eelam.

Pakistan and Bangladesh...just avoid them for the time being. They would probably revolt the second we took them in. And what would we do with Baluchistan or NW Provinces. They were never really historically Indian. They revolt against Pakistan, so why wouldn't they do the same on India.

Back to Top
Afghanan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Durr e Durran

Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1076
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 18:26

Pakistan and India , especially Punjab (which borders both) share the same culture and language (Punjabi).  Ordo, which is called Hindi in India, is pretty much the same language. 

Pakistan and India wear almost the exact same clothes at parties that I have gone to, and no matter how much Pakistan does not want to admit, they are in LOVE with Bollywood and Indian popculture.  Furthermore, Banghra (Punjabi Dance Music) is equally loved in India and Pakistan, as well as the colonial British game of Cricket.

Pakistan as a whole is rather divided.  Musharraf and the generals want Pakistans identity to be closer to Arabs, Afghans, and Persians.  (ie. the national dress is the traditional Afghan dress - Shalwar Kamees, the anthem is in Persian, and written in Perso-Arabic script) and even their most famed singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, his grandparents were from Afghanistan.

I spoke with a Pakistani lady who got really angry at me when I told her that Ordo is not in the Eastern Iranian family, but Indo-Aryan family.  She claimed Ordo was just a mix of Arabic and Persian ONLY, which I told her she was wrong.  Afterwards she said abruptly, "Are you saying that what I was taught in my own country was wrong?" and I said, "YES!" 

Pakistanis try very hard to cling to the Persian world, while their roots and language bring them more to the East towards Hindustan.

The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Back to Top
Jhangora View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Status: Offline
Points: 1067
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 22:12

Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

Pakistanis try very hard to cling to the Persian world, while their roots and language bring them more to the East towards Hindustan.

I agree Afghanan.I came across a Pakistani website which tries to prove that Pakistan has always been a separate political n cultural entity n throughout history Pakistan has had its face towards West Asia n back towards India.

I wish my Pakistani brothers n sisters good luck n hope they'd be fully integrated with the West Asian nations in a few decades.

Jai Badri Vishal
Back to Top
Iftikhargul View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iftikhargul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 12:17
I came accross this website and I found this topic. I wish there were more people who really understood history and not just personal opinions and prejudices about history of India-Pakistan and other nations. Let me clarify a few things I read in this forum which I understand and others are welcome to correct me.

1: About Pakistan
       Historically, River Indus, which is the source of name for India, runs through the middle of Pakistan, dividing country in almost two equal halves. The punjab and Sind on its eastern side have been associated with India and it's culture for most part of their history whereas the western half of the country, namely NWFP and Balochistan have been, for most part of their history, asociated with western and north western nations of the central Asia, namely Iran, Afghanistan and others who passed through them. This also includes Alexander the Great's army which took this divided path along the river indus and technically did not cross into what is India Today. It is obviously, in this historical context that the two halves have almost two different ethinic and historical backgrounds and cultures and have totally different languages. Pashto is spoken widely in NWFP and in Balochistan which is an Iranian family of languages and so is Balochi in Balochistan. There are also large populations of Farsi speaking communities in Balochistan and NWFP.  Because of this historical, cultural and linguistic difference from historical India, the western half of the country sees nothing in common with historical Indians and share more in common with the west and north western nations. In other words, one has to understand that they are not trying to be something they are not but they truely are what they are, namely half of the country has historicaly been part of Indian culture where as the other half has been part of what one may call greater middle eastern(Balochistan) and central Asian culture (NWFP).

2: Unity with India
       Historicaly, India should never have been divided beyond river Indus nor it was the Intent of Indian Muslim League which is considered responsible for the division of India. Till 1946, one year before partition, Indian Muslim league compaigned for a state for muslims of india under single confederation of greater India with single armed forces, currency and foregin policy but separate state governments like what is here in USA. Call it lack of vision, forsight or narrow mindedness of Nehru and Gandhi that such a division of India was not acceptable to them and they asked Jinah, the founder of Pakistan to take his state and create a country of his own. These are the facts and any one can investigate those.  All these wars, problem of Kashmire and death and ditruction could have been avoided if federation had been accepted by Nehru as a solution for India.

Through they are trying to narrow their differences through organizations such as SAARC by opening up trade and perhaps a common currency, militancy in both countries has to subside before mistrust can be totally eliminated. If mullahs in Pakistan are militant, militant Hindu's and their parties such BJP in collabaration with state officials have also spilled a lot of Indian muslim blood under their control and it obviously creates a feeling of staying separate nations forever.

As I said, earlier, any one is welcome to discuss these points if they wish to do so.
Back to Top
Afghanan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Durr e Durran

Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1076
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 19:15
Iftikhar Gul, that is what I was saying.    Culturally, its very clear as to where their roots lie.  But politically Pakistan has tried to say the entire nation is more allied with Central Asia/Middle East than India.  I find that untrue and misleading.
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Back to Top
Iftikhargul View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iftikhargul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 20:01
Political alignment with Middle east stems from their religiuos affiliation with them and their hostile relationship with India. You must also note that for most part of the history of their existance, their ruling class has remained the so called Mohajir community which has deep roots in India. These people include, to name a few, General Zia, Pervaiz Musharaf, Bhuto family and numerous others before them. This mohajir community sees more in common with the rest of the muslim world than they see it even with India or with people living within Pakistan. It is also interesting to note that the national language of the country, Urdu, is not even one of the languages of the natives of that land but is the language of the Indian mohajir  emmigrants. These people strongly feel outcasted by the Indians and for that reason they align themselves to the muslim world.  One more note regarding Urdu language mentioned in your earlier posts. The word ordu is from turkish langauge meaning residense or court. This language has strong grammatic affilation with Hindi but has more Arabic, Farsi and Turkish vocabulary because of the fact that it was the language developed overtime by the invading muslim armies of that time from those lands. It is very young language and it's proper classification is not so straight forward.

I find it interesting to see the reference from ~ Khushal Khan Khattak at the bottom of your post. He was born in NWFP Pakistan but he is the national poet of Afghanistan. It is because, during that time both Balochistan and NWFP were part of Afghanistan and it was only during the mid 1800's (150 years or so) that these territories were annexed by Bristish to their British India. That tells you that the modern boundaries are pretty fragile and that nation is still evolving.
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 03:18

Have you not read my post on the other topic about how Pakistanis have always mixed with other races.

Indian, Turkic, Pathan (Afghan), Persian, Arabs, Macedonian have all mixed with the Pakistanis. Also other than colonial times when was there a united India or as you would call it mother India?

NEVER!!!, the closest you got was with the Mughals (a Muslim empire i believe)

Its URDU not ORDU!!!, Yes Urdu is very similar to Hindi. However Urdu can be compared to Osmanli (Ottoman language), it was called Zaban-e-Urdu-e-Mu'alla. It was initially used by the Imperial courts however gained popularity with administrators, army and bazaars.

Its has words from Hindi, Persion, Turkish and Arabic. Although Persion and Hindi are the dominant influencers.

Hindi is in the Indo-European family of languages, Urdu is in the Indo-Iranian branch.

Unification with India, what a joke. The Indian government isnt even looking after the Muslims in their own country, how will you cope with Pakistan and Bangladesh.



Edited by OSMANLI

"Freedom for the right of the Headscarf"
Back to Top
Afghanan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Durr e Durran

Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1076
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 18:44

Originally posted by Iftikhargul Iftikhargul wrote:

Political alignment with Middle east stems from their religiuos affiliation with them and their hostile relationship with India. You must also note that for most part of the history of their existance, their ruling class has remained the so called Mohajir community which has deep roots in India. These people include, to name a few, General Zia, Pervaiz Musharaf, Bhuto family and numerous others before them. This mohajir community sees more in common with the rest of the muslim world than they see it even with India or with people living within Pakistan. It is also interesting to note that the national language of the country, Urdu, is not even one of the languages of the natives of that land but is the language of the Indian mohajir  emmigrants. These people strongly feel outcasted by the Indians and for that reason they align themselves to the muslim world.  One more note regarding Urdu language mentioned in your earlier posts. The word ordu is from turkish langauge meaning residense or court. This language has strong grammatic affilation with Hindi but has more Arabic, Farsi and Turkish vocabulary because of the fact that it was the language developed overtime by the invading muslim armies of that time from those lands. It is very young language and it's proper classification is not so straight forward.

I find it interesting to see the reference from ~ Khushal Khan Khattak at the bottom of your post. He was born in NWFP Pakistan but he is the national poet of Afghanistan. It is because, during that time both Balochistan and NWFP were part of Afghanistan and it was only during the mid 1800's (150 years or so) that these territories were annexed by British to their British India. That tells you that the modern boundaries are pretty fragile and that nation is still evolving.

Khushal Khan was NOT born in NWFP of "Paakistan."  There was NO Paakistan at the time, infact, there was no Afghaanistan when Khushal Khan Khattak was around.  It was two nations - Mughal and Safavi, both contentious rivals for Kandahar.

"Afghanistan" was actually a dream of freedom for Khushal Khan who wanted to remove the land of Afghans from foreign meddling.  That is why he is one of Afghanistan's most revered Poets and freedom fighters.

The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Back to Top
Iftikhargul View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iftikhargul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 22:52
I did not say there was Pakistan at that time. I did make that clear by saying " It is because, during that time" etc. etc. I know very well that he was not only a poet but also a great leader and warrior of the Khattak tribe and he fought many battles against emperor Aurangzhieb and spent time in his prison in Delhi. Technically, he was a rebel who challenged Aurangzhiebs dominion over what is Khattak land,  all well within the boundaries of modern Pakistan ( Kohat, Peshawar, and Mardan).  NWFP was a creation of British after they formally annexed it, I believe, in 1893, after capturing it during Afghan wars. It does not belittle him nor his status will be elevated if he was born somewhere else but it does not take away the fact that he was born, lived and died in what is NWFP Pakistan today. That is all I was saying. I was trying to explain the true multiethnic nature of Pakistani nation which includes people from lands other than what was just historic India beyound river Indus. This was in response to your assertion that Pakistanies should alighn politicaly to India only whereas I was trying to explain why this can not be so because of multi ethnic nature of that still very young nation. My explanations and that of Osmanli explanations above should make that very clear to any one who cares to know.
Back to Top
Afghanan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Durr e Durran

Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1076
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 17:37

Originally posted by Iftikhargul Iftikhargul wrote:

I did not say there was Pakistan at that time. I did make that clear by saying " It is because, during that time" etc. etc. I know very well that he was not only a poet but also a great leader and warrior of the Khattak tribe and he fought many battles against emperor Aurangzhieb and spent time in his prison in Delhi. Technically, he was a rebel who challenged Aurangzhiebs dominion over what is Khattak land,  all well within the boundaries of modern Pakistan ( Kohat, Peshawar, and Mardan).  NWFP was a creation of British after they formally annexed it, I believe, in 1893, after capturing it during Afghan wars. It does not belittle him nor his status will be elevated if he was born somewhere else but it does not take away the fact that he was born, lived and died in what is NWFP Pakistan today. That is all I was saying. I was trying to explain the true multiethnic nature of Pakistani nation which includes people from lands other than what was just historic India beyound river Indus. This was in response to your assertion that Pakistanies should alighn politicaly to India only whereas I was trying to explain why this can not be so because of multi ethnic nature of that still very young nation. My explanations and that of Osmanli explanations above should make that very clear to any one who cares to know.

Pakistan's multi-ethnic makeup has nothing to do with the Military Dictatorship there is today.  I'm not saying Pakistan should stay competely aligned with India, but its stance today is what psychologists call "Denial."

Musharraf is a Mohajir, as you said, his birthplace is in India, his culture is related to Indian.  Pakistan tries VERY hard to seperate itself culturally and spiritually from India.  In fact, its leanings are more towards the Indian subcontinent rather the Middle East.

This is a drastic change of the regions culture and policy and he is trying to rewrite history.  Even this Pakistani lady I know still claims Urdo is a mix of Persian and Arabic (which is equivalent to what modern Farsi is today), which you and I, BOTH know is not true.

 

The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.