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Forum LockedPakistan’s British-Drawn Borders

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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistan’s British-Drawn Borders
    Posted: 14-May-2009 at 01:22
Originally posted by Leonidas

   and may i go further and say another line exists between Punjab and the NW + Baluchistan in pakistan.
 
 
Its not that clear cut.  As there are many large settlements of Pashtuns and Baloch in Panjab, Sindh (Karachi has 4 million+ Pashtuns)and the Northern Areas that are fully integrated and vice-versa many Panjabi's in NWFP, Sindh and Balochistan(Quetta) that makes such a clear cut (line) distinction difficult to make.  Just to complicate matters more Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 14:54
same can be said for Afghanistan to, no one can claim kabul right?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 16:13
Originally posted by Leonidas

same can be said for Afghanistan to, no one can claim kabul right?
 
True, just as the Pashtuns are spread out all over Pakistan, In Afghanistan as well, especially in the urban centres in the north as well as west of the country as well as due to ''forced migrations'' and settlements, there are Pashtun belts(many now ''Persianized'')  found in northern Afghanistan.   Kabul is a mixed city(@50 Pashtun) and on last accounts Islamabad is also said to be 50% Pashtun. 


Edited by MarcoPolo - 14-May-2009 at 16:17
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 23:34
sparten : What I mean is that, if you go to NWFP you feel like you're in Afghanistan, the culture, language, ethnic groups are all the same. Their only difference is that their on the other side of the so called border. It's not right to separate the same group of people and divide them as the British did to them. The majority of those who live in NWFP are the pashtuns. And As I checked before the Majority of Afghans are pashtuns, but the ones living in NWFP are separated. As a matter of fact, many NWFP have family Living on the other side of the border (Afghanistan). 

I wasn't talking about borders or if they were secure enough or anything. I was talking about how, in NWFP when you reach their you feel as though you are in Afghanistan because of the culture and their traditions and how most people speak pashto in NWFP.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 23:38
MarcoPolo: Kabul's majority is Tajiks and the other groups. As a matter a fact Kabul has the 2nd less pasthuns. The most less is in Mazar e sharif then Kabul. The pashtuns living in Kabul are in the less urban places and they are mostly un-educated. So they don't know how to speak in Dari or write and read in either languages (Dari & Pashto) . But if you compare them to the pashtuns in Kandhahar. The Kandharians are more educated. A city next to Mazar e sharif called Konduz has a very high level of education and most ethnic group their is the Pashtuns. But it depends on where they live. 

And as for the pashtuns in Islamabad, Im sure they speak pashto at home, but since the language their is urdu they have to speak it outside. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 16:35
Originally posted by 00historylover00

MarcoPolo: Kabul's majority is Tajiks and the other groups. As a matter a fact Kabul has the 2nd less pasthuns. The most less is in Mazar e sharif then Kabul. The pashtuns living in Kabul are in the less urban places and they are mostly un-educated. So they don't know how to speak in Dari or write and read in either languages (Dari & Pashto) . But if you compare them to the pashtuns in Kandhahar. The Kandharians are more educated. A city next to Mazar e sharif called Konduz has a very high level of education and most ethnic group their is the Pashtuns. But it depends on where they live. 

And as for the pashtuns in Islamabad, Im sure they speak pashto at home, but since the language their is urdu they have to speak it outside. 
 
Regards dear HistoryLover,
First of all welcome to the forum and it's nice to have another Afghan on the forum and wish to see more of your knowledge and information shared on the forum.
Afterwards I would like to say that Kabul do have a high population of Pashtuns (around 30-40%) but sadly most of them don't know anything abouth Pashtu the language and the way of life of Pashtuns.
A good example would be the royal families of Mohammadzais, Abaweis, Barakzais and more who surname themselves with those names but don't know anything more than that about their roots.
As MarcoPolo mentioned, they are more Tajikized (I would prefer Tajikized as Persianized would certainly make them more Iranian than Afghan) as they speak Dari and have adopted the Tajik way of life.
It is the same as the Tajiks and Uzbeks living in Kandahar, Helmand, Nemroz, Nangarhar, Laghman and the surroundings, they too have merged with the locals and just call themselves Tajik or Uzbek, nothing more.
 
As far as Pakistan is concerned it is sad to say that most of the Pashtuns living in Pakistan don't even knows how to read and write Pashtu, and to some exteands they even can't speak. I have lived for a long time in Islamabad and know 100s of people who call themselves Pashtun but don't know anything about the language or way of life, as they are more liberal and modernized back in Islamabad compared to rest of the Pashtuns around the world.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 05:04
Originally posted by Mehran Baloch

Can the admins please make sure that this topic does not get hijacked and turned into an argument about Kashmir?

This topic has nothing to do with Kashmir,


I was responding to this question from gcle


I agree they built an empire more or less that way, and calling Britannia a foxy lady is not without cause. But my question was specific: what, post-Empire, could Britain hope to gain from discord in Kashmir, Kurdestan and Afghanistan?



 or indeed even Pakistan's borders with India which are not in dispute as the Panjabi was more than happy to separate from his Hindoo and Sikh cousins and to drive them out of their homes. And also unlike the Pashtuns and the Baluch, the Panjabis are not a nation, never were a nation, and are unlikely to ever become a nation unless Pakistan is one-day reduced to just its Panjab province.
 
Very simply there would be no Panjab had it not been for the Mughal's who designated that part of north-west India as Panjab. But more importantly the Panjab really took shape during the British empire in India (became then known as "the Punjab").

No. You can start by reading about Ranjit Singh here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh


 The Panjabi identity began to take root from there. Whereas the Pashtun and Baloch identities are indigenous to its peoples and are hundreds of years old, the collective "Panjabi" identity of the various Indian tribes and castes like the Jats, Gujjars, Rajpoots, Dalits and so on was given to them by the British.

That is untrue. Language and People in Punjab existed before the birth of Islam and arrival of British and were ruled by Indian kings.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 12:51
Again the specifics of the recent history of Kashmir are irrelevant to this thread. So is advocating any particular nationalist view of it.
 
Originally posted by ruffian

Originally posted by Mehran Baloch

Can the admins please make sure that this topic does not get hijacked and turned into an argument about Kashmir?

This topic has nothing to do with Kashmir,


I was responding to this question from gcle


I agree they built an empire more or less that way, and calling Britannia a foxy lady is not without cause. But my question was specific: what, post-Empire, could Britain hope to gain from discord in Kashmir, Kurdestan and Afghanistan?
 
Reasonable I suppose at the time (I myself was responding to the claim that had been made about Britain fostering discord in those places).
 
However that was before Mehran justifiedly complained, and I promised not to let is descend into an argument about Kashmir, and warned you not to.
 
So the rest of your post infringes.
 
I've left it but I'll cut any more you or anyone else says on the subject of Kashmir in this thread.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mehran Baloch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 15:40
Somebody quoted a figure of 30+ million Pashtuns in Pakistan and only 9 million in Afghanistan. I dont know why some people insist on spreading such misinformation on the internet as if this is going to legitimise anything. You explain when the last census was conducted in Afghanistan to come out with such a figure and reproduce here the latest census data for Pakistan before thumping such lies, thank you very much.
 
30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan is nonsense. The NWFP itself does not even have 30+ million inhabitants and NWFP is not an exclusive Pashtun territory, not by a long shot. NWFP is home to millions of Hindoo origin peoples, some who have retained their own languages while others have started speaking Pashto. Pashtun migrations into what is now NWFP had taken place over the last few hundred years as had their migration south into Baluchestan.
 
The biggest mistake our Panjabi neighbours continually make without fail is that by thinking that all one needs to do is to pilfer the name "Khan" in order for him to claim Afghan descent or "Pathan" identity. This is entirely false, yet a widespread and common perception and practice in Pakistan. But it is not too difficult to identify and separate the real Pashtun population in Pakistan from the millions of imposters, especially for those living outside of urban areas. Both Baluch and Pashtun traditional society and way-of-life have absolutely no resemblance to the village caste-based, rural feudal society of the Panjab. There are tribal laws, norms and customs that only a Baluch or Pashtun could understand for their respective societies and these are big indicators of identity that cannot be assumed or infiltrated by outsiders. These are bonds of blood and family - of kinship. Something all the Jats and Gujjars and so on of the Panjab could never understand or appreciate. Simply put, changing ones name and calling oneself a "Pashtun" does not make you a Pashtun. I pray that one day finally the subcontinental Muslim will just accept and understand this.
 
Excuse the slight distraction, the deliberately falsified figure of 30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan has riled me a little. It is an example of the type of misinformation that so typically characterises the state of Pakistan and its hegemonic ambitions towards the Baluch and Afghans.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 19:13
Originally posted by Mehran Baloch

Somebody quoted a figure of 30+ million Pashtuns in Pakistan and only 9 million in Afghanistan. I dont know why some people insist on spreading such misinformation on the internet as if this is going to legitimise anything. You explain when the last census was conducted in Afghanistan to come out with such a figure and reproduce here the latest census data for Pakistan before thumping such lies, thank you very much.
 
30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan is nonsense. The NWFP itself does not even have 30+ million inhabitants and NWFP is not an exclusive Pashtun territory, not by a long shot. NWFP is home to millions of Hindoo origin peoples, some who have retained their own languages while others have started speaking Pashto. Pashtun migrations into what is now NWFP had taken place over the last few hundred years as had their migration south into Baluchestan.
 
The biggest mistake our Panjabi neighbours continually make without fail is that by thinking that all one needs to do is to pilfer the name "Khan" in order for him to claim Afghan descent or "Pathan" identity. This is entirely false, yet a widespread and common perception and practice in Pakistan. But it is not too difficult to identify and separate the real Pashtun population in Pakistan from the millions of imposters, especially for those living outside of urban areas. Both Baluch and Pashtun traditional society and way-of-life have absolutely no resemblance to the village caste-based, rural feudal society of the Panjab. There are tribal laws, norms and customs that only a Baluch or Pashtun could understand for their respective societies and these are big indicators of identity that cannot be assumed or infiltrated by outsiders. These are bonds of blood and family - of kinship. Something all the Jats and Gujjars and so on of the Panjab could never understand or appreciate. Simply put, changing ones name and calling oneself a "Pashtun" does not make you a Pashtun. I pray that one day finally the subcontinental Muslim will just accept and understand this.
 
Excuse the slight distraction, the deliberately falsified figure of 30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan has riled me a little. It is an example of the type of misinformation that so typically characterises the state of Pakistan and its hegemonic ambitions towards the Baluch and Afghans.
s
Dear Mehran Baloch,
I totally agree with you regarding both the figures of Pashtuns on both sides but still it is not a difference of a huge margin.
Afghanistan as of July 2009 (estimated by C.I.A World Factbook) has a population of 33,609,937, amongst which the Pashtun population is of 42% (same reference) which makes the total Pashtun Population of Afghanistan upto 14,116,173 (14.1m).
While total population of Pakistan as of May 16th 2009 is 166,401,000 (ref: PCO) with a total of 15.42% (reference) Pashtuns which makes it 25,659,034 (25.6m). Both countries making a total of 39,775,207 (39.78m) Pashuns.
 
And regarding the word "Khan" it really is funny but truth that most of the people living around Pashtun people will name anyone with a Khan surname a Pashtun.
This reminds me of a very nice and informative story, once I got in to a Taxi in Islamabad and by seeing the driver I recognized that he was a Pashtun so I asked am if he was one, the answer of that old man was a really good leason where he said, "No dear I am not a Pashtun as by speaking Pashtu you don't become a Pashtun, and do I look like following any code of conduct of Pashtunwali, so don't call me a pashtun where I kill the people who have seeked help from me and has got in to my house and I sell him back for a few dollars. No this is noth Pashtunwali."
 
So I totally agree with your comment of the tradition laws and norms, by following which you could be called a true Baloch or Pashtun.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 02:02
Originally posted by Gharanai

Originally posted by Mehran Baloch

Somebody quoted a figure of 30+ million Pashtuns in Pakistan and only 9 million in Afghanistan. I dont know why some people insist on spreading such misinformation on the internet as if this is going to legitimise anything. You explain when the last census was conducted in Afghanistan to come out with such a figure and reproduce here the latest census data for Pakistan before thumping such lies, thank you very much.
 
30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan is nonsense. The NWFP itself does not even have 30+ million inhabitants and NWFP is not an exclusive Pashtun territory, not by a long shot. NWFP is home to millions of Hindoo origin peoples, some who have retained their own languages while others have started speaking Pashto. Pashtun migrations into what is now NWFP had taken place over the last few hundred years as had their migration south into Baluchestan.
 
The biggest mistake our Panjabi neighbours continually make without fail is that by thinking that all one needs to do is to pilfer the name "Khan" in order for him to claim Afghan descent or "Pathan" identity. This is entirely false, yet a widespread and common perception and practice in Pakistan. But it is not too difficult to identify and separate the real Pashtun population in Pakistan from the millions of imposters, especially for those living outside of urban areas. Both Baluch and Pashtun traditional society and way-of-life have absolutely no resemblance to the village caste-based, rural feudal society of the Panjab. There are tribal laws, norms and customs that only a Baluch or Pashtun could understand for their respective societies and these are big indicators of identity that cannot be assumed or infiltrated by outsiders. These are bonds of blood and family - of kinship. Something all the Jats and Gujjars and so on of the Panjab could never understand or appreciate. Simply put, changing ones name and calling oneself a "Pashtun" does not make you a Pashtun. I pray that one day finally the subcontinental Muslim will just accept and understand this.
 
Excuse the slight distraction, the deliberately falsified figure of 30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan has riled me a little. It is an example of the type of misinformation that so typically characterises the state of Pakistan and its hegemonic ambitions towards the Baluch and Afghans.
s
Dear Mehran Baloch,
I totally agree with you regarding both the figures of Pashtuns on both sides but still it is not a difference of a huge margin.
Afghanistan as of July 2009 (estimated by C.I.A World Factbook) has a population of 33,609,937, amongst which the Pashtun population is of 42% (same reference) which makes the total Pashtun Population of Afghanistan upto 14,116,173 (14.1m).
While total population of Pakistan as of May 16th 2009 is 166,401,000 (ref: PCO) with a total of 15.42% (reference) Pashtuns which makes it 25,659,034 (25.6m). Both countries making a total of 39,775,207 (39.78m) Pashuns.
 
And regarding the word "Khan" it really is funny but truth that most of the people living around Pashtun people will name anyone with a Khan surname a Pashtun.
This reminds me of a very nice and informative story, once I got in to a Taxi in Islamabad and by seeing the driver I recognized that he was a Pashtun so I asked am if he was one, the answer of that old man was a really good leason where he said, "No dear I am not a Pashtun as by speaking Pashtu you don't become a Pashtun, and do I look like following any code of conduct of Pashtunwali, so don't call me a pashtun where I kill the people who have seeked help from me and has got in to my house and I sell him back for a few dollars. No this is noth Pashtunwali."
 
So I totally agree with your comment of the tradition laws and norms, by following which you could be called a true Baloch or Pashtun.
 
 
Love the quote Gharanai, true followers of Pashtunwali in its original sense are hard to find.  But Im an optimist, and believe that its still there in their hearts, maybe just overshadowed by the chaos of this modern commercial world we now live in.
 
I think the figures on pashtun statistics are always skewed for many reason, for one many of the Pashtuns in Afghanistan, though ethnically Pashtun, have been (corrected) Tajiki-fied or no longer follow Pashtunwali and in the case of Pakistan many have gone to urban centres and lost their ancestral language to Urdu, and also by the fact that many are false claimants to Pashtun ancestry (notably amongst Urdu-speakers, many of whom use Khan as a surname).  I remember in my village, they would often refer to them simply as Khaan (with little or no emphasis on the N) .  Furthermore, with a large number of Afghans(at last UN estimates - @ 80% being Pashtuns) who still reside in Pakistan having settled nearly all provinces and refusing to return, further makes the task difficult as many of them are NOT included in the census.  Many were born in the country and have acquired identity cards.  Also figures for Pashtuns living outside of their traditional regions(Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi etc.) are quite often skewed as well.  While 30 million Pashtuns for Pakistan may not be completely accurate, I dont think it is far off, it may even quite possibly be higher.
 
Baloch statistics are even more difficult as they are believed to be a minority in their own province (outnumbered by Pashtuns) and many Baloch tribes are to be found in the adjacent provinces of Sindh (just east of the Kirthar mountain range) where they make up a big portion of the nobility and feudal lords of Sindh as well as in South west corner of the Panjab province where many Baloch tribes settled for various reasons (inter-tribal feuds, greener pasture etc...) In fact many of the cities still bare strong Baloch names(Dera Ghazi Khan etc..).  Many of these Baloch are no longer conversant in their ancestral Balochi tongue nor follow the Balochyar tenets since being removed from the environment of Balochistan. Even in Iran, it is believed that Baloch population are often downplayed and the exact ethnic make-up of Oman(often cited to be 30% of Baloch origin) complicates matters further.
 
In saying that, I do agree that until accurate censuses (and non-biased) are undertaken the full accuracy and extent will never be truly found out.  The best we can do is apply logic and get as close to a possible exact figure as possible. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 17:23
Originally posted by MarcoPolo

Originally posted by Gharanai

Originally posted by Mehran Baloch

Somebody quoted a figure of 30+ million Pashtuns in Pakistan and only 9 million in Afghanistan. I dont know why some people insist on spreading such misinformation on the internet as if this is going to legitimise anything. You explain when the last census was conducted in Afghanistan to come out with such a figure and reproduce here the latest census data for Pakistan before thumping such lies, thank you very much.
 
30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan is nonsense. The NWFP itself does not even have 30+ million inhabitants and NWFP is not an exclusive Pashtun territory, not by a long shot. NWFP is home to millions of Hindoo origin peoples, some who have retained their own languages while others have started speaking Pashto. Pashtun migrations into what is now NWFP had taken place over the last few hundred years as had their migration south into Baluchestan.
 
The biggest mistake our Panjabi neighbours continually make without fail is that by thinking that all one needs to do is to pilfer the name "Khan" in order for him to claim Afghan descent or "Pathan" identity. This is entirely false, yet a widespread and common perception and practice in Pakistan. But it is not too difficult to identify and separate the real Pashtun population in Pakistan from the millions of imposters, especially for those living outside of urban areas. Both Baluch and Pashtun traditional society and way-of-life have absolutely no resemblance to the village caste-based, rural feudal society of the Panjab. There are tribal laws, norms and customs that only a Baluch or Pashtun could understand for their respective societies and these are big indicators of identity that cannot be assumed or infiltrated by outsiders. These are bonds of blood and family - of kinship. Something all the Jats and Gujjars and so on of the Panjab could never understand or appreciate. Simply put, changing ones name and calling oneself a "Pashtun" does not make you a Pashtun. I pray that one day finally the subcontinental Muslim will just accept and understand this.
 
Excuse the slight distraction, the deliberately falsified figure of 30+ million Pashtuns inhabiting Pakistan has riled me a little. It is an example of the type of misinformation that so typically characterises the state of Pakistan and its hegemonic ambitions towards the Baluch and Afghans.
s
Dear Mehran Baloch,
I totally agree with you regarding both the figures of Pashtuns on both sides but still it is not a difference of a huge margin.
Afghanistan as of July 2009 (estimated by C.I.A World Factbook) has a population of 33,609,937, amongst which the Pashtun population is of 42% (same reference) which makes the total Pashtun Population of Afghanistan upto 14,116,173 (14.1m).
While total population of Pakistan as of May 16th 2009 is 166,401,000 (ref: PCO) with a total of 15.42% (reference) Pashtuns which makes it 25,659,034 (25.6m). Both countries making a total of 39,775,207 (39.78m) Pashuns.
 
And regarding the word "Khan" it really is funny but truth that most of the people living around Pashtun people will name anyone with a Khan surname a Pashtun.
This reminds me of a very nice and informative story, once I got in to a Taxi in Islamabad and by seeing the driver I recognized that he was a Pashtun so I asked am if he was one, the answer of that old man was a really good leason where he said, "No dear I am not a Pashtun as by speaking Pashtu you don't become a Pashtun, and do I look like following any code of conduct of Pashtunwali, so don't call me a pashtun where I kill the people who have seeked help from me and has got in to my house and I sell him back for a few dollars. No this is noth Pashtunwali."
 
So I totally agree with your comment of the tradition laws and norms, by following which you could be called a true Baloch or Pashtun.
 
 
Love the quote Gharanai, true followers of Pashtunwali in its original sense are hard to find.  But Im an optimist, and believe that its still there in their hearts, maybe just overshadowed by the chaos of this modern commercial world we now live in.
 
I think the figures on pashtun statistics are always skewed for many reason, for one many of the Pashtuns in Afghanistan, though ethnically Pashtun, have been (corrected) Tajiki-fied or no longer follow Pashtunwali and in the case of Pakistan many have gone to urban centres and lost their ancestral language to Urdu, and also by the fact that many are false claimants to Pashtun ancestry (notably amongst Mohajir Urdu-speakers(Indian muslim refugees in Pakistan), many of whom use Khan as a surname).  I remember in my village, they would often refer to them simply as Khaan (with little or no emphasis on the N) .  Furthermore, with a large number of Afghans(at last UN estimates - @ 80% being Pashtuns) who still reside in Pakistan having settled nearly all provinces and refusing to return, further makes the task difficult as many of them are NOT included in the census.  Many were born in the country and have acquired identity cards.  Also figures for Pashtuns living outside of their traditional regions(Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi etc.) are quite often skewed as well.  While 30 million Pashtuns for Pakistan may not be completely accurate, I dont think it is far off, it may even quite possibly be higher.
 
Baloch statistics are even more difficult as they are believed to be a minority in their own province (outnumbered by Pashtuns) and many Baloch tribes are to be found in the adjacent provinces of Sindh (just east of the Kirthar mountain range) where they make up a big portion of the nobility and feudal lords of Sindh as well as in South west corner of the Panjab province where many Baloch tribes settled for various reasons (inter-tribal feuds, greener pasture etc...) In fact many of the cities still bare strong Baloch names(Dera Ghazi Khan etc..).  Many of these Baloch are no longer conversant in their ancestral Balochi tongue nor follow the Balochyar tenets since being removed from the environment of Balochistan. Even in Iran, it is believed that Baloch population are often downplayed and the exact ethnic make-up of Oman(often cited to be 30% of Baloch origin) complicates matters further.
 
In saying that, I do agree that until accurate censuses (and non-biased) are undertaken the full accuracy and extent will never be truly found out.  The best we can do is apply logic and get as close to a possible exact figure as possible. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 18:26
Why is'nt discussion including the Goldsmid line?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 20:18
Originally posted by MarcoPolo

Originally posted by Leonidas

same can be said for Afghanistan to, no one can claim kabul right?
 
True, just as the Pashtuns are spread out all over Pakistan, In Afghanistan as well, especially in the urban centres in the north as well as west of the country as well as due to ''forced migrations'' and settlements, there are Pashtun belts(many now ''Persianized'')  found in northern Afghanistan.   Kabul is a mixed city(@50 Pashtun) and on last accounts Islamabad is also said to be 50% Pashtun. 
Islamabad is fast becoming the main economic hub of NWFP.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Totalitarian Iconoclast

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by gcle2003

Surely that applies only to north-west Pakistan and south-east Afghanistan? A major problem with Afghanistan seems to be that the peoples of the north and those of the south have very little in common with each other.
and may i go further and say another line exists between Punjab and the NW + Baluchistan in pakistan.
No you may not! There is no definate border (ethnically, lingiuistically speaking) with respect to Punjab and the other provinces. Most of the SW Part of Punjab is more Baloch (DG Khan and Rajanpur districts) while the South becomes progressivly Sindhi, while in the West for quite a distance there is no real distinction between Pashtun and Punjabi, take DI Khan in the Frontier, traditionally a Punjabi area, or Miawali in the Punjab, traditionally a Pashtun area (though it has quite a bit of Seriakis as well.).
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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