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Forum LockedOttomans Vs Ming

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xi_tujue View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 16:06
It's a common Fact that these to Empire were the LArgest and richest empires of there time. at there hight

One in asia one around the medditerenean.

Both had a spectacular Millitay organisations and a advanced arsenal at that point.

What if these 2 Superpowers would go to battle.................With eachother.


We could have 2 senario's

1. Game senario: Like Age of Empire a map with 2 camps special units no other factors
2. Real life senario : enemies and allies play a factor.(Lets say ming could use the european powers against the ottomans or the Ottomans could rely on The Central asian Khanates against the Ming.)



so who would win the war?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 09:10

How could Ming have conflicted against Ottomans while it couldn't dealed with Mongols to the north and Japanese sea pirates to the east? Also what weopans did Ming have as opposed to Ottoman cannons and firearms which were the most advanced in their times? Shortly it's meaningless to imagine that Ottoman and Ming were equal powers. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 10:02
It's like most such comparisons, it depends upon times periods.
 
The Ming were at their peak in the medieval period while the Ottoman's where still smallish and rising. Later in the Rennaisaance period when the Ottoman Empire hit its peak the Ming were in decline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 13:27
lets say in the early 15 th cent

what would happen then?

Ming still strong

The ottomans hadn't just quite adopted firearms yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2007 at 23:52

Really depends on what date, but I bet on the Ming military. Never underestimate the Chinese military when they are not fighting each other. They get as scary as endless Russian advance.

     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 04:20
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

Really depends on what date, but I bet on the Ming military. Never underestimate the Chinese military when they are not fighting each other. They get as scary as endless Russian advance.



you don't know the ottomans so well then.Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 05:19
In the 18th Century the Ottoman standing army was 180,000 men. Presumably much smaller in the 15 century. The Ming standing army of the time was 1.8 million. that's a more than 10/1 advantage.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 14:51
Originally posted by xi_tujue xi_tujue wrote:

Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

Really depends on what date, but I bet on the Ming military. Never underestimate the Chinese military when they are not fighting each other. They get as scary as endless Russian advance.



you don't know the ottomans so well then.Big%20smile
 
Or you don't know much about Chinese...Wink
 
I must admit I only know about Ottoman Empire' military when they started to expand to the Balkans to their final decline... but I do know that there were more Chinese troops compared to the Ottoman troops throughout the history. As Paul pointed out,
 
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

In the 18th Century the Ottoman standing army was 180,000 men. Presumably much smaller in the 15 century. The Ming standing army of the time was 1.8 million. that's a more than 10/1 advantage.
 
 
 
So if I am wrong, enlighten me~
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 15:30
I'm not talking about the numbers

we all know the chinese allways relied on there numbers.


It's not the numbers of the advance but the advance it self.

1.8 million ^professional soldiers thats allot how r u gonna equip such an army well ill equiped mabey.

Turks don't know what defense is the best defense is offenseBig%20smile

as you all said what about the firepower of the ottomans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 15:35

Chinese army is not full of recently conscripts. It's true that many of them are undertrained and underequpied, but there are a lot of Chinese professional soldiers. It may not be much compared to their total army, but large nevertheless to make huge influence in warfare.

And of course, Ottoman army is not exactly all professional soldiers either.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 15:45
The funny thingy is they allmost all were

1. The kapikulu(slaves): were trained to be soldier by the state at a young age.(large proprtion of the army)
2. Ethnic Tribal families who suplied the Sipahi's and akincis(there basicly like knights all they do is fight all the time ore train)
3. Freelancers who were mostly a bit crazy(would you like to fight a crazt man who charges the enemy alone with one firearm (bashibozuk).

I never heard that common folk were in the army.

I'm no expert but every young boy was thought how to handle him self in a fight(kids of that they learnt how to wrestle ride a horse,etc... hell there favorite game was playong soldier accualy it was my favorite game 2 yours mabey also)

In the ottoman army you were either a farmer or a soldier other possition were mostly outside the heartland and were non ethnics like jews, armenians & greeks (eventhough allongside the georgians & serbs they were in the jannisary corp)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 16:18
Um... what's your point? Kapikulu? Ethinic troops? What?
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 17:03
Thats the structure or accualy the diffrent sections of the Ottoman army.

1. Kapikulu(janissaries = slaves) main infantry
2. Ethnic Turkish families (fight war for booty) Main cavalary
3. exeptional forces like bashibozouks(Basibozuk = Crazy)

These is the make up of the ottoman army

I wanted to point out that the common folk had no place or a verry little role in the Ottoman military life

I think basicly they didn't need the common folk they must think those numbers were enough
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 17:53
Sipahis aren't "professionals" in the meaning of that word. They were just another feudal force connected to the land income.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 22:51
Early 15th century Ming was more powerful then ottomans and by a wide margin, however late 15th Ming would still have an advantage but not great.
Ottomans were more powerful militarily then Ming in late 16th century and early 17th.
 
on another note Tamerlane easily defeated ottomans, however he was more cautious in dealing with the house of Ming, he did attempt to invade china however he was already too old and dying by then. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 02:42
Also keep in mind that the army of the Ming Dynasty employed thousands of Mongol horseman as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 05:20
The Ming were certainly much larger and more powerful, they had more resources and wealth. They were technologically more advanced, had a much larger and better quality army.
 
However, they became decrepit, riddled with corrupt and inneficient bureaucracy. They became inward looking and lost the early drive that built the empire. This is the fate of all large empires.
 
The Turks, like all empires, when they started out suffered none of this. They were tight, unified, shared a common purpose and under effective and competant leadership.
 
How many times in history does the small upcoming empire usurp the large stagnant incumbent power?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 18:12
Originally posted by Hulegu Han Hulegu Han wrote:

How could Ming have conflicted against Ottomans while it couldn't dealed with Mongols to the north and Japanese sea pirates to the east? Also what weopans did Ming have as opposed to Ottoman cannons and firearms which were the most advanced in their times? Shortly it's meaningless to imagine that Ottoman and Ming were equal powers. 

 
Is it how history is twisted in Mongolia?
 
The fact is after the Yuan Mongol was driven out from China by Emperor Zhu Yuanchang (Hongwu), the Mongols tried to invade China again and were defeated by the Emperor Zhu Di(Yongle) five times during the expedition commanded personally by him. After his death, the Mongol did soundly defeat the Ming army in Tumu fortress but the Ming quickly resumed and defeated the Mongol led by Minister Yu Qian in the defense of Beijing. And they signed a Pact that promised peace between Ming China and Mongol for the next couple hundred years.
 
The Japanese sea pirates that you talked about(which comprised of mostly Chinese) that have been plaguing China were completely eradicated by Ming General Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou in the mid Ming Dynasty.
 
According to Historian Sanderson Beck, "The Chinese had been manufacturing guns since the 13th century, about fifty years before the Europeans did. The Chinese had also been casting iron many centuries before Europe, and they invented cannons. Gun carriages were made to make the cannons mobile, and in 1462 the Ming made 1200 carriages. In 1465 they manufactured 300 cannons and 500 gun carriages. At this time a Chinese battalion was supplied with forty cannon batteries, 160 general cannons, 528 continuous bullet cannons, 624 hand guns, 300 grenades, seven tons of gunpowder, and more than a million bullets".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 22:03
Just to note, the Japanese pirates didn't make a lot of serious threat to Chinese ports during Ming dynasty. It was usually Korea that Japanese raided.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2007 at 00:38
No, siphais were professional soldiers relied on feudal income.they were raised to fight since their childhood and expert in horse-tactis(partian shot vs..)

Edited by Batu - 05-May-2007 at 00:39
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