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Forum LockedOsama bin Laden

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Osama bin Laden
    Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 18:35
OSAMA bin LADEN



I wondered whether or not I should make this thread - but why not? We all know what Osama bin Laden is, and this thread is in no way an attempt to change that well-deserved infamy. It is, though, a look at who this monster is.

Usāmah bin Muhammad bin `Awad bin Lādin, commonly known as Osama bin Laden, was born on March 10, 1957, in...

Riyadh, Saudi Arabia:



His father is Muhammad Awad bin Ladin, a wealthy businessman involved in construction and with close ties to the Saudi royal family. There is no definitive account of the number of children born to Muhammed bin Laden, but the number is generally put at 55. In addition, various accounts place Osama as his seventeenth son, while others say he was the last of 25 sons. His family originally came from Hadhramaut, Yemen and he was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim.

The large number of bin Laden siblings is the result of polygyny; his father was married ten times, although to no more than four women at a time per Islamic law. Osama is the only son of the elder bin Laden's tenth wife, Hamida al-Attas, who is reportedly of Syrian descent. A woman who in 1971 had attended an English language course with bin Laden recalled him saying with some sadness that his mother was a concubine.

From 1968 to 1976, bin Laden attended the Al-Thager Model School in...

Jeddah, Saudi Arabia:


After his father died, bin Laden inherited what was once estimated to be a fortune of US$300 million although more recent estimates put his holdings at about US$25 million.



Bin Laden has fathered at least 24 children. Najwa, a Syrian and his mother's niece, reportedly had 11 children by bin Laden, including Abdallah, Omar, Saad, and Muhammad. Omar and Abdallah were reportedly organizing the U.S. branch of the World Congress of Muslim Youth in Falls Church, Virginia during the 1990s.

Bin Laden’s position within his huge family has always been unclear. His immensely wealthy family publicly disowned him in 1994, shortly before the Saudi Arabian government revoked his citizenship. He attended his son's wedding in January 2001, but since 9/11 is believed only to have had contact with his mother on one occasion.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan resulted in a call to arms by religious leaders all over the Muslim world to liberate the country from pro-Soviet rule. Bin Laden eagerly sent money, supplies, and weapons to the jihadis in Afghanistan.

When Iraq under Saddam Hussein ordered a military invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990, Bin Laden called for jihad against Saddam and asked the Saudi government for permission to send jihadists to protect the country and help liberate Kuwait. Instead the government invited a coalition made up of forces from the United States and other non-Muslim nations to establish a base in Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden, who had hated the United States even before the Gulf War, was outraged; he considered the presence of non-Muslim forces on Saudi soil as an affront to himself and to Muslims in general. Disagreements and squabbling between Bin Laden and the Saudi royal family soon exploded into full-blown hostility, especially after US forces remained in Saudi Arabia upon liberating Kuwait.

Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1992, moving to Sudan at the behest of its Islamist government. There he began to build al-Qaeda and much of its current militant and governmental structure.

There is strong evidence linking Osama and al-Qaeda to several terrorist acts worldwide, most particularly the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C., which killed at least 2,752 people. In addition to terrorist attacks, Al Qaeda has also been connected to various armed Islamist revivalist movements in Muslim-majority countries.



After the September 11 attacks, the United States demanded the Taliban authorities, who were not recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan by the United Nations or indeed most nations in the world, to deliver bin Laden to face trial for his crimes. The Taliban refused to surrender their "guest" and made a counter-offer to try bin Laden in an Islamic court or extradite him to a third-party country. As the aggrieved nation in the September 11, 2001 attack, this was unacceptable to the U.S. government. The following U.S. invasion of Afghanistan resulted in the death or arrest of many members of both Al Qaeda and the ruling Taliban, but bin Laden was not found.

Rumors about his whereabouts have appeared from time to time since the start of U.S. military operations in Afghanistan but none have been confirmed.

On November 25, 2005, Democratic Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said that he was informed that Bin Laden may have died in the October earthquake in Pakistan.

In a videotaped message posted on an Islamist website in early December 2005, the deputy leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahri, was reported as saying that the group's leader was alive and still leading their "holy war against the West".

Most recently, Michael Ledeen, a scholar with close ties to the Bush administration, wrote that "....according to Iranians I trust, Osama bin Laden finally departed this world in mid-December. The al Qaeda leader died of kidney failure and was buried in Iran, where he had spent most of his time since the destruction of al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The Iranians who reported this note that this year's message in conjunction with the Muslim Haj came from his number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, for the first time."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 20:05
Thanks for the post, this actually really interests me. For some reason the personal lives and backgrounds of the famouse and infamous are always fascinating to me personally.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 21:58

Given his education and wealth among other factors part of me thinks hes not a religious fanatic at all...only a person using the religious fanaticism of the middle east to his own ends.  But who knows.  Furthermore I remember once hearing the point of the 9-11 attacks was to draw the US into a middle eastern quagmire they could not win...if that is indeed the case than the US walked right into his trap. 

At the other end though he really could just be a spoiled brat used as a symbolic frontman for other people.

Either way I would like to see Geraldo Rivera, the huge sleazebal he is, follow through on his promise to kill Bin Laden and bronze his head.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote BMC21113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 22:12
Osama Bin Laden had every opportunity to use his money for the good of his people, but instead he has orchestrated terrorist attacks across the world killing and maiming the innocent. Yes, he is a religious fanatic. If he is not, than who is? Bin Laden is a coward, offering his promise of paradise for his followers. He has made his name in the killing of the innocent and for that has been hunted mercilessly. I predict that Bin Laden is dead, and if he is not, then he will be in the near future.
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"The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 22:25
I still think theres a chance hes just a power broker.  He got cut out of the family fortune and now hes gonna strike back at the monarchy.  I however would not be suprised that by spouting his rhetoric he has come to beleive it himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 04:36

I believe his ambition is purely personal, and his invoking of religion merely a tool to help achieve his personal ends.

In fact, if Saudi Arabia had been a democracy of any sort, I've no doubt bin Ladin would have challenged for the political leadership internally. That course however was ruled out, so he had to turn to fairly legitimate (defence of Afghanistan against the Soviets) and then totally illegitimate (the terror campaigns) methods.

None of which of course excuses him at all.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 10:12
I think it's a mute arguement you're having.

If someone uses religion to achieve fascist goals at the detriment of other people, he or she is a religious extremist. Whether they actually believe, in their hearts, this twisted faith is irrelevent.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 09:53

It's relevant to the question of whether you should condemn the faith, or just the individual.

Calling bin Ladin an 'Islamic' terrorist leads to condemnation of Islam. It shouldn't, but it does. And I assume you don't want that any more than I do.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 10:55
I don't think you can condemn an entire faith for the actions of any individual but I do understand what you're saying now.

I don't know what term to use, though - Islamic terrorist, Christian extremist, Jewish ultranationalist, etc.

All the different terms used in the media have different connotations that are sometimes useful.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 22:35
Religious extremist is a term devoid of a specific faith, and since all those people are all the same regardless of the prophet they beleive in its a fitting term.  I think in this case it applies more to the followers than the leaders however.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 01:56

Suicide bombing: Why is it only one of the 3 major monotheistic religions usually do this? I hear it is because they are promised 70 virgins and a bowl of fruit. Now if its an everlasting bowl I have yet to learn...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:29

There arent 3 major monotheistic religions...theres one Abrahamic desert cult with its branches continually in civil war.  The reason the one branch using such bizarre tactics is they have less wealth and thus need a new shocking tactic.  Blowing yourself and killing alot of people is just another way to fight a war, or kill people, depending on how you see it.

But because its new and unique to Islam it has the best shock effect.  Because western societies tend to be wealtheri in this day and age we are also more removed from harsh reality and stuff like beheading and suicide bombing thus gets to us.

I remember reading an excellent article about how terrorists can outloast the US in any war because we get all freaked out by their tactics and casualties and because we are not as used to death being ever present.  Hell, I think most Americans think by the time they are old they will be able to get medicine to live forever.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 02:31
There have been Christian suicide bombers as well - I remember two stories involving Christian Palestinians.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 07:23
Don't forget Japanese kamikazes... and Japanese aren't even Monotheistic at all. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 21:58

 

 I kind of respect Bin Laden; I really like the man. I believe mankind debauchery and insolence can only be purged by a castastrophic war that will radically alter our society fabric. Believe it or not Bin Laden may trigger such war.

War is the cure to the disease that man has become; vermin that is festering a wound and that need to be cleansed. If there is no war, I mean a terrible that will bring mankind to the border of extinction, we will simply be buried in our own filth. Nature demands a war as anti-dote.

Although Bin Laden, as an enemy, should be slaughtered; his ideology is necessary for the progress of mankind. Peace as it is perceived by the common man is a heresy.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 22:14
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

 I kind of respect Bin Laden; I really like the man. I believe mankind debauchery and insolence can only be purged by a castastrophic war that will radically alter our society fabric. Believe it or not Bin Laden may trigger such war.

War is the cure to the disease that man has become; vermin that is festering a wound and that need to be cleansed. If there is no war, I mean a terrible that will bring mankind to the border of extinction, we will simply be buried in our own filth. Nature demands a war as anti-dote.

Although Bin Laden, as an enemy, should be slaughtered; his ideology is necessary for the progress of mankind. Peace as it is perceived by the common man is a heresy.

This is a very, very, very strange outlook.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 00:07
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

 I kind of respect Bin Laden; I really like the man.

 

A french responce that I can say I am not surprized to hear..

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 01:04

I would actually say although I hate Bin Laden I have to partially back up Qetzacoatl here...partially.  If society ever needs a large change (good and bad being subjective to the individual viewer of course) large scale violence is the only way to do it.  Therefore you occasionally need to have upstarts that attempt to mess with the establishment, these can be good guys or bad guys. There are usually both. 

But say this revolution did occur, and that something good did come of it...well for something good to come of it Osama would ahve to die.  Those that will divide the world between them after a large incident will not always be compatible.  I think the world needs to secularized and freed from religion, Osama wants th eopposite. Thus he would ahve to die and his followers exterminated for any good to come from the chaos.  Otherwise all that chaos would only achieve something worse than the status quo.

Thats at least a rational I can pull from what Qetzacoatl is saying.  Though personally I would bronze Osamas head and keep it as a trophy is I could.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 01:44
Originally posted by Tobodai

I would actually say although I hate Bin Laden I have to partially back up Qetzacoatl here...partially.  If society ever needs a large change (good and bad being subjective to the individual viewer of course) large scale violence is the only way to do it.  Therefore you occasionally need to have upstarts that attempt to mess with the establishment, these can be good guys or bad guys. There are usually both. 

But say this revolution did occur, and that something good did come of it...well for something good to come of it Osama would ahve to die.  Those that will divide the world between them after a large incident will not always be compatible.  I think the world needs to secularized and freed from religion, Osama wants th eopposite. Thus he would ahve to die and his followers exterminated for any good to come from the chaos.  Otherwise all that chaos would only achieve something worse than the status quo.

Thats at least a rational I can pull from what Qetzacoatl is saying.  Though personally I would bronze Osamas head and keep it as a trophy is I could.

Well it is good you didn't misinterpret what I wrote. Respecting Bin Laden and even liking him, doesn't mean I don't want to see him dead.Good you clearly understood my point, infact I didn't notice any partial disagreement at all;

 The world is too sick to find a  remedy by peaceful means. There is a need to shake the foundation. Do you remember WW1 and WW2, after the war how peaceful man wanted to be; they were starting to realise there was a need for change. Those wars weren't clearly adequate, man need to become rare to understand their insanity. What is happening right now is madness, on a long run, if no war come to be we are doomed. It is like a viscious cycle, if situation degenerate the world will become overpopulated all resources gone and I fear that will be the end of men as a species. If man devolves to such state of visciousness no war will be able to change mankind; that devolution changes us inside genetically for it adapts us to that new environment; but if man is scarce they will go back to the roots and they will be given a chance to start once again.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lilleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 11:09

So you say that war is necessary for the survival of man-kind? That is a quite cynical way to look at things.

I agree that the world of today is f*cked up and pretty bizzare. People are way too hungry for money, success, power & beauty. They/we take things for granted and have forget how shallow they/we are and what sh*tty life situations people in other parts of the world live in. Then we have all those crazed nationalists and relgious extremists that wants to send us all back to the stone age.

I totally agree that disasters, war, famin and such can change the the way we think, and often for the better. But as the cure for everything? I personally don't (want/like to) believe that. The enormous suffering in it's path is not acceptable. Especially when the allready misfortuned ones is the ones mostly affected by it. In that way is Osama "good", at least if a person believe war to be the antidote. Osama takes the war to the degenerated and overpriviliged ones (namely us)...

It seem like the most of us have forgotten what is important. What is important? (any ideas guys?). War? (I hope not). I absolutely believe that we can change things for the better without war. It takes much longer time than war. But I think it is possible. It's all about changing attitude and mentality. I sounds naive, but it worked before and I think it will work again. War just infect things more and breeds new conflicts.



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