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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 17:28
Would someone please explain to me about the huge similarities between Northern European and Iranian stories (not other Indo-European ones) that we discussed in this thread? Please don't talk about again a proto-Indo-European origin!
 
Another one:
 

HAMLET, the hero of Shakespeare's tragedy, a striking figure in Scandinavian romance.

The chief authority for the legend of Hamlet is Saxo Grammaticus.

Dr. O. L. Jiriczek 6 first pointed out the striking similarities existing between the story of Amleth in Saxo and the other northern versions, and that of Kei Chosro in the Shahnameh (Book of the King) of the Persian poet Firdausi. The comparison was carried farther by R. Zenker (Boeve Amlethus, pp. 207-268, Berlin and Leipzig, 1904), who even concluded that the northern saga rested on an earlier version of Firdausi's story, in which indeed nearly all the individual elements of the various northern versions are to be found.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 18:15
Cyrus that's not what your quote said.  It said:
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism.
 You clearly called me a nationalist here, there is no conditional statement in that sentence.  Clearly the quote means that you consider my opposition to your claim to be "reasonless".  There is no backtracking now other than to rescind that comment and publicly state that I am not a nationalist and have never espoused a nationalist point of view nor have I espoused a eurocentric point of view.

You really do like to Cherry-pick your evidence don't you?  Did you read the entire article or just search for the section that mentioned a Persian?  Had you read the whole thing you would have seen the paragraph above the one that you provided, which pointed out the similarities between Saxo's Hamlet and a Roman story.  Is the Roman story Persian as well?  Had you read on you would have seen the rest of that paragraph where the author points out the similarities to the stories of Bellerophon, Heracles, and Servius Tullius.  As far as I can tell these stories are much older than the ones mentioned above (that is Saxo, the story of Brutus, and Firdausi).  Is it possible that Firdausi borrowed his story from the Romans?  Is the story of Hamlet really that unique?  All cultures with a political system have had similar stories, why is it not possible that these stories are parallel development?  Does the Saga of Hrolf Kraki not have any bearing on Shakespeare's Hamlet?  What about the similarities between Hamlet and English Romances of Havelok, King Horn, and Bevis of Hampton?  The fact of the matter is that in all probability these stories – Saxo and Firdausi – developed independently.  It should not be surprising to see that many cultures have these stories with similar details.  That fact that multiple cultures have these stories is in fact not evidence of one's descent from another.  In order to show descent you have to prove that one knew the story from the other, so in your case you would have to prove that Saxo had Firdausi's story in hand when he wrote that section of his Historia.

When one doesn't have a strong grasp of the culture and historiography of a nation's history one probably should go about making claims about that country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 18:43
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

More telling though is the fact that the original Latin text does not mention Scythia at all. In the passage quoted above the Latin is "laegati transfretauerunt trans tithicam uallem,
 
 
'Tithicam' is hard to translate (Lewis and Short don't know it) and is only a rarely used expession from post-classical Latin (apparently in Gildas for instance). But the general opinion seems to be that it is a poetic form for 'valley of the sea'  with 'tithica' = 'marina', so the sense of the passage is simply that messengers were sent across the sea - possibly 'across the narrow seas' occurs to me.
 
"TJie Hisperica Famina and Gildas.

The chief word which has been quoted as tending to connect the Hisperica Famina with Gildas is the adjective tithica (= marina), which is found in the De excidio c. 19"
 
  
So this 'Scythia' is a figment of the translator's imagination, and in inspection vanishes completly like a burned away fog from the landscape.
It's not that simple. Tithicus,-a is an unknown word in post-Classical Latin.
 
It can be that "Tithica" is a corruption from "Scythica" as the manuscripts are hesitant in this point. See for example a 19th century edition of Gildas: http://books.google.com/books?id=FDEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA24
 
The "general opinion" is that this word is part of the so-called Hesperic vocabulary, i.e. the Latin used by a few early Christian monks in the British Isles.
And therefore 'post-classical', no? I accept that's more accurate though.
Quote
 It may be a Celtic word, but also considering these monks had some little familiarity with Greek language and mythology, "tithica" can be an adjective related to Tethys (either a corrupted "tethica" or even originally "tithica" as "Tethys", IIRC, it may have been prounounced in that era "tithis"), a Greek sea goddess. Nennius seem to have copied this syntagm from Gildas (De excidio 19: http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/arthist/vortigernquotesgil.htm - see the same "trans Tithicam vallem").
 
That's the same reference given in the article I linked to.
 
I like the etymology connecting the word with Tethys though, since it bears out the supposition that the phrase just means 'across the sea' ('vale of Tethys'?).
 
I suggested 'narrow' seas not to make 'narrow' a possible connotation of 'tithicam', but as one of the connotations of 'vallem' - i.e. you wouldn't call the open ocean 'tithica valles'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 18:49
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And therefore 'post-classical', no? I accept that's more accurate though.
Except for these authors from the British Isles I know of no one else to use it.
 
Quote
I suggested 'narrow' seas not to make 'narrow' a possible connotation of 'tithicam', but as one of the connotations of 'vallem' - i.e. you wouldn't call the open ocean 'tithica valles'.
Yes, it makes sense that something like the English channel or the Irish sea to be seen as "valleys of water/sea" between landmasses.


Edited by Chilbudios - 02-Mar-2009 at 18:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2009 at 21:19
King John, it is obvious that you just want to deny, you can find some similarities between all stories of the different regions of the world, but I hope you can understand that I'm talking about something so much more than these simple similarities, not only between two but almost all Iranian and Northern European stories, as you read about Hamlet it says "the northern saga rested on an earlier version of Firdausi's story, in which indeed nearly all the individual elements of the various northern versions are to be found," so you have to believe it is impossible that these stories – Saxo and Firdausi – developed independently.
 
Lets see another ones: Spandiyard (Esfandiyar) & Sigurd (Siegfried), as you see both names are similar, please you yourself compare them with Achilles who, similar to them, was invulnerable on all of his body except in one spot.
 
 
 
Siegfried & the Dragon:
 



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 03-Mar-2009 at 21:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 00:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

King John, it is obvious that you just want to deny, you can find some similarities between all stories of the different regions of the world, but I hope you can understand that I'm talking about something so much more than these simple similarities, not only between two but almost all Iranian and Northern European stories, as you read about Hamlet it says "the northern saga rested on an earlier version of Firdausi's story, in which indeed nearly all the individual elements of the various northern versions are to be found," so you have to believe it is impossible that these stories – Saxo and Firdausi – developed independently.
 
Lets see another ones: Spandiyard (Esfandiyar) & Sigurd (Siegfried), as you see both names are similar, please you yourself compare them with Achilles who, similar to them, was invulnerable on all of his body except in one spot.
 
 
 
Siegfried & the Dragon:
 

I'm not denying, I'm criticizing; there's a difference.  Denying implies that I know you are right and am refusing to believe what you are saying.  Criticizing implies that I am reading your argument with an open-mind and then evaluating it and pointing out areas which are deficient or lacking.  I have only pointed out areas which to me don't make any sense or which have a better or at times easier explanation.  Please stop responding to my posts with claims of denial and/or nationalism they only belittle your argument; you are better than that.  If you truly believe that you are right and have evidence to back you up I will have to accept it, if you come to the proverbial table with flimsy arguments that have their basis in very little proof you should expect people to question and criticize your arguments.  

You, Cyrus, keep talking about the similarities between Northern European Stories and Iranian one but you don't talk about the similarities of Northern European stories with say Greco/Roman Stories (something your source did).  You just cherry pick the part of the source that supports what you think, you need to take in the entire source, its argument and what it says, not just the part that supports your point of view.  You use sources that quote out-dated material (ie: books published in 1905).  You also do not provide proof that Saxo used the story of Firdausi has his base material for his "Hamlet" story.  Was Firdausi even translated into Latin or any European Vernacular language by 1208 AD (when Saxo died)?  Do you have any proof that Saxo knew any sort of Persian?  Pointing out these things or even asking you how these stories/myths/legends don't have a more ancient Indo-European origin is not denial, it is critical thinking.  When I pointed out that your source for the Hamlet argument states that there is a similar story in the works of the Roman Historian Livy you neglected to respond to that.  When I asked you if it was possible that Firdausi got his story from that more ancient source (and one that Saxo, as a bishop trained in Latin, would definitely know) you failed to answer that.  Instead you respond with the above quote.  If Firdausi really is the origin of Saxo's story you should easily be able to respond to my comment and question with evidence, the fact that you haven't responded in that manner leads me to believe that you cannot refute my comment nor answer my question.

Let us return to one of your previous "connected" stories, the stories of Ymir and Yama/Yima.  I asked you to provide the similarities that  exist between the two stories, you haven't.  Why is that?  If there really are so many similarities that would make such a strong argument for them to be the same, I would think you would gladly provide them.  It has been a few days since I asked for those similarities and you still haven't provided them.  So I will compare the two stories, from my understanding of them.  Ymir in ON mythology is said to have formed the race of giants, he was born in Ginnungagap when ice from Niflheim met the heat of Muspelheim and melted forming drops of eitr.  The drops came together and formed Ymir and sparks from Muspelheim gave him life.  This very abridged story shows him not to be of the race of men, clearly he was a supernatural being whose offspring were the main enemies of the gods.  When Odin and his brothers killed Ymir they used his body to form Midgard (the Earth).  Yama/Yima as I understand was the first man and a great king of men.  When he died he went and ruled over the underworld.  So let's recap Ymir a hermaphrodite that gave rise to the race of giants, Yama a mortal who gave rise to men.  Ymir after being killed became the world in every aspect, Yama came to rule over the underworld.  It seems to me that these two stories have greater differences than similarities.  Your theory about the similarities/connection between the two comes from a controversial theory laid out in 1992 by W. Meid, which posits that these two characters have Indo-European origins.

In regards to Achilles as far as I can tell never slew a dragon as Sigurd did.  Why don't we compare them to, I don't know, Grendel who is also invulnerable, but to swords.  Invulnerability plays a role in these myths/legends to make the characters seem more heroic/monstrous.  I also fail to see how this supports your claim since there is also a Hindu story about an invincible warrior so how is this character trait not parallel development or even of an older origin?  How do these stories support your theory?  Name similarities are all well and good but they don't show connections nor do they show similarities.

*Edit
Please respond to all my points.


Edited by King John - 04-Mar-2009 at 00:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 10:49
I have not already enough time to give a full reply to your post, just about Old Norse Ymir (Aurgelmir) and Iranian Yima (Gayomart), I don't know why you talk about the first one but then compare him with Indian Yama, the lord of death, who has just a similar name to them?!! Whenas the Iranian one is a giant, almost the same as the Old Norse one, is nourished by a cow (Iranian Ivakdad & Old Norse Audumla, killed by a god (Ahriman/Buri) and finally his body becomes different parts of the earth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 11:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I have not already enough time to give a full reply to your post, just about Old Norse Ymir (Aurgelmir) and Iranian Yima (Gayomart), I don't know why you talk about the first one but then compare him with Indian Yama, the lord of death, who has just a similar name to them?!! Whenas the Iranian one is a giant, almost the same as the Old Norse one, is nourished by a cow (Iranian Ivakdad & Old Norse Audumla, killed by a god (Ahriman/Buri) and finally his body becomes different parts of the earth.


Many myths are similar in many widespread civilizations. Let's for example compare Ymir and Pangu.
Ymir: hairy ancient giant, his blood became the rivers, his flesh the mountains, his teeth the stones, his hair the trees, his skull the heaven.

Pangu: hairy ancient giant, his blood became the rivers, his flesh the mountains, his bones the gems, his fur the trees, his beard the stars.

The Indians also have a myth about a god cut up to form the world (and, as the case with Ymir, his skull formed the heaven). Same for the Babylonians.

Myths are ancient and primordial. They may appear similar, but have independent beginnings. They may also travel, converge and form new myths. That two people have similar myths does in no way mean these two people descend from the same.

In this case, Iranian and Germanic have both the same IE roots, so it's not strange they share myths at all. There are also many similarities with Greek and Roman mythology, but you conveniently ignore these. You pick the raisins without examining the whole bread.

Comparing myths is very interesting, but it's totally irrelevant when it comes to migrations and ethnic relations. Iran is a Muslim country with the same creation myth as the Arabs - does that mean Persians are descendant from Arabs? Or Indonesians for that matter.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 04-Mar-2009 at 11:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:04
Quote In regards to Achilles as far as I can tell never slew a dragon as Sigurd did.  Why don't we compare them to, I don't know, Grendel who is also invulnerable, but to swords.  Invulnerability plays a role in these myths/legends to make the characters seem more heroic/monstrous.  I also fail to see how this supports your claim since there is also a Hindu story about an invincible warrior so how is this character trait not parallel development or even of an older origin?  How do these stories support your theory?  Name similarities are all well and good but they don't show connections nor do they show similarities.
I can say you can find the similarities between Iranian and north European stories in all aspects, not just names or the details of the stories but even main features of the characters, in my first post in this thread I talked about red-haired Scythians, we see  about the Iranian national hero Rustam the Saksi (Scythian), Ferdosi says: "همه موي سر سرخ و رويش چو خون", it means Rustam was born with red hair, red like the blood. It is said that the meaning of his name is also "red haired", we know Proto-Germanic word *rusta- also means "red/rust" -> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=rust&searchmode=none
 
You can read here about Vanir, a red-haired people who lived in Vanaheimr.

Snorri introduces Vanaheimr thus:

Thus it is known that a great sea goes in at Nörvasund [ Straits of Gibraltar ], and up to the land of Jerusalem. From the same sea a long sea-bight stretches towards the north-east, and is called the Black Sea, and divides the three parts of the earth; of which the eastern part is called Asia, and the western is called by some Europa, by some Enea. Northward of the Black Sea lies Svíþjóð the Great, or the Cold. [...] On the south side of the mountains which lie outside of all inhabited lands runs a river through Svíþjóð, which is properly called by the name of Tanais [ Don River, Russia ], but was formerly called Tanakvísl, or Vanakvísl, and which falls into the Black Sea. The country of the people on the Vanakvísl was called Vanaland, or Vanaheimr; and the river separates the three parts of the world, of which the eastermost part is called Asia, and the westermost Europe. [1] [2] See also: Scythia
Vanir warrior:
 
 
and Rostam the Scythian:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:51
Good, then we can finally decide there is no connection. The Scandinavians looked nothing like that Hollywood picture!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You can read here about Vanir, a red-haired people who lived in Vanaheimr.
 You are aware that the website your direct us to about the Vanir is a website about a specific collection of comic books, right?  How do we take this seriously?  You want us to believe that the Vanir from the Conan the Barbarian comic books are in fact the Norse?  Come on Cyrus, this is ridiculous.  Furthermore the quote from Snorri makes no mention of red hair or any description so how does it relate to your point?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 22:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I have not already enough time to give a full reply to your post, just about Old Norse Ymir (Aurgelmir) and Iranian Yima (Gayomart), I don't know why you talk about the first one but then compare him with Indian Yama, the lord of death, who has just a similar name to them?!! Whenas the Iranian one is a giant, almost the same as the Old Norse one, is nourished by a cow (Iranian Ivakdad & Old Norse Audumla, killed by a god (Ahriman/Buri) and finally his body becomes different parts of the earth.
I found Yima under an article about Yama claiming the two were the same.  I have since done some further searching and found that Yama is an alternate spelling for Yima specifically in Middle Persian.  One little note about your representation of the Ymir story.  Ymir wasn't killed by a god named Buri, he was killed by Odin, Vili, and Ve - the grandsons of Buri.  So Ymir wasn't killed be
a god he was killed by gods.  There's still a big difference between Ymir and Yima (Gayomart), Ymir has nothing to do with the race of men - just Giants.  Yima (Gayomart) is said to have created the race of men.  The article I found about Gayomart states:
Quote  And, where Gayomart was slain, on the spot, his seed fertilized the earth, and forty years later a plant shot up, splitting into gave forth two persons, a male and a female.  Information about Gayomart taken from this site
As you can see this quote says nothing about giving rise to a race of giants just to the race of men.  Is this not a big difference?  One thing I find interesting about this whole comparison is that Ymir when he is alive he has nothing to do with humans, Yima as I understand is said to be the progenitor of a great race of kings.  Please see this page for information about Yima/Jamshid  The differences between the stories are great how does one prove that one of these stories is descended from the other?  Furthermore you can't prove that these stories don't have a much more ancient Indo-European origin that explains the similarities, whereas the names themselves imply, as you have said, a common origin.  That origin happens to be, as posited by one scholar, Meid, Indo-European.  

Please take the time to respond to my post 6 posts above this one, about which you said you hadn't enough time to respond.  I would very much like to hear what you have to say to it.


Edited by King John - 04-Mar-2009 at 22:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 22:53
Every time I think Cyrus has brought the discussion to the very lowest scientific level, he is able to bring it further down. Your arguments are old, disproved and rediculous. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 00:30

Quote I'm not denying, I'm criticizing; there's a difference.  Denying implies that I know you are right and am refusing to believe what you are saying.  Criticizing implies that I am reading your argument with an open-mind and then evaluating it and pointing out areas which are deficient or lacking.  I have only pointed out areas which to me don't make any sense or which have a better or at times easier explanation.  Please stop responding to my posts with claims of denial and/or nationalism they only belittle your argument; you are better than that.  If you truly believe that you are right and have evidence to back you up I will have to accept it, if you come to the proverbial table with flimsy arguments that have their basis in very little proof you should expect people to question and criticize your arguments.

Therefore the problem is your method of criticism, in fact you are not criticizing my argument when for example you don't say for these reasons Amleth was not similar to Kei Chosro but say there were also some similarities between the story of Amleth and some Greco-Roman stories, maybe you think if you expand my argument then you will be able to conclude that these stories have all proto-Indo-European origins but the important point is the amount and type of the similarity. It is not difficult to find out that these similarities were from a common origin or appeared later because of a cultural influence.

About another story, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles Achilles was originally the greatest warrior of Homer's Iliad, not a mythical hero who fights against the dragon. Some centuries later, Statius probably reads about Spandiyard (Esfandiyar) or Sigurd (Siegfried) and thinks it is not bad that our greatest warrior to be also invulnerable, but we see his invulnerability can't fit in the Iliad where Homer mentions Achilles being wounded: in Book 21.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 07:00
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Quote I'm not denying, I'm criticizing; there's a difference.  Denying implies that I know you are right and am refusing to believe what you are saying.  Criticizing implies that I am reading your argument with an open-mind and then evaluating it and pointing out areas which are deficient or lacking.  I have only pointed out areas which to me don't make any sense or which have a better or at times easier explanation.  Please stop responding to my posts with claims of denial and/or nationalism they only belittle your argument; you are better than that.  If you truly believe that you are right and have evidence to back you up I will have to accept it, if you come to the proverbial table with flimsy arguments that have their basis in very little proof you should expect people to question and criticize your arguments.

Therefore the problem is your method of criticism, in fact you are not criticizing my argument when for example you don't say for these reasons Amleth was not similar to Kei Chosro but say there were also some similarities between the story of Amleth and some Greco-Roman stories,
Maybe you should reread what I wrote, when I was criticizing your argument.  What I pointed out by saying that Hamlet and Kei Chosro could come from a Greco-Roman tradition is that your source states this.  By doing this I am criticizing how you make your argument.  I have also criticized your argument by asking you to prove that Saxo read Firdausi.  If Saxo actually did read Firdausi it shouldn't be that hard to prove.  I also asked you if there is any translation of Firdausi into Latin or any contemporary vernacular language by the time Saxo died in 1208.  The whole basis of your argument was that Saxo was familiar with Firdausi's story, this is a line of reasoning that needs to be proven in order for your claim to be true.  
Quote maybe you think if you expand my argument then you will be able to conclude that these stories have all proto-Indo-European origins but the important point is the amount and type of the similarity. It is not difficult to find out that these similarities were from a common origin or appeared later because of a cultural influence.
If it's not that hard then why have you failed to answer my request for proof that these stories appeared because of cultural influences from Scythians?  I have never tried to expand your argument I just pointed out similarities between the myths that you suggested and myths from other cultures.  I have pointed out common origins to myths that you have suggested (Ymir/Yima).  I want to point out that these common origins came from sources that you provided or that a simple google search turns up.

Quote About another story, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles Achilles was originally the greatest warrior of Homer's Iliad, not a mythical hero who fights against the dragon. Some centuries later, Statius probably reads about Spandiyard (Esfandiyar) or Sigurd (Siegfried) and thinks it is not bad that our greatest warrior to be also invulnerable, but we see his invulnerability can't fit in the Iliad where Homer mentions Achilles being wounded: in Book 21.
Why do you bring up Achilles?  What does he have to do with this discussion?  As I pointed out Epic poetry is formulaic so of course great warriors in that poetry are going to have some sort of extraordinary power/prowess/trait.  Often time these extraordinary traits/powers/prowess are used to enhance the heroic nature of a character; it makes for a better story and often times a more dramatic demise.  If Sigurd and Spandiyard are so invulnerable why do they die?  What's your point about Statius starting the invulnerability part of the Achilles story?  If all three are killed then how invulnerable were they really?  Do you have any proof for you claim that Statius in the first century AD "probably" read about Spandiyard or Sigurd (who wasn't supposed to have lived for another few centuries according to the legends surrounding him)?  Don't get defensive when somebody points out that your research or understanding of a story is lacking.  A simple way to actually avoid my criticisms would be to not just take one part from a source and neglect another part which would suggest a different reason for an occurrence; a prime example would be your source for the Hamlet story.  Anybody can see that the story, according to your source, could have also come from a Latin story written by Livy.  I might also add that Saxo, as a bishop trained in Latin, would be more likely to know this story than one that is written in an Iranic language. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 09:06
 
ROFLOL ... Tongue
 
I am having a flash back memory as I follow this long-drawn-out debate on the theory of possible Iranic origin for Britain's earliest inhabitants & Germanic peoples,it reminds of one particular thread at another history forum involved an ethnic Vietnamese moderator and Chinese posters arm wrestled on the origin of Han-Chinese.It was his pet project & an obsession.He was well prepared and gathered some dubious informations ( links and DNA whatever ) to prove " pure Vietnamese origin " of the Chinese race.On the hand,he never ceased to propagate Chinese origin of his ethnic Vietnamese people.What a 2-faced freak.
 
Anyway,one extremely bright Chinese-Aussie forummer sucessfully refuted all his stupid claims.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 11:25
This looks more like a display of stamina and inexhaustible supply of stubbornness on the part of some than a true preoccupation with historical truth... Sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 12:04
King John, I am talking about a common origin between Iranian and Northern European stories which could be Scythian stories, I never mean a Persian influence on the Germanic Culture or vice versa, it is certainly impossible that Saxo Grammaticus could access a translation of the Shahanmeh just one century after Ferdosi, we see even some Germanic stories, like the Lay of Hildebrand, are older than similar stories in the Shahnameh, of course I don't want to say that Ferdosi himself created the stories of Shahnameh, in fact he just versified them but most of them were oral stories, not written. Anyway I believe non of them was a copy of another one, there are really some differnces between Iranian and Northen European stories and I don't deny that they developed independently but they were principally the same.
You can't find this principal similarity between other Indo-European stories and them, for example about Sigurd and Spandiyard, the principal similarity is their invulnerability and their weak points which is the most important thing in the stories of them, their weak point is a secret that no one else knows, so no one can kill them but they finally are killed easily when this secret is revealed, of course there are some other things, like fighting against the dragon, that without them the story loses its solidarity and becomes incomplete, so we see there is no reason in the story of Achilles that him to be invulnerable, therefore his invulnerability, as Greeks themselves know, couldn't be in the original story by Homer but just something which was added later.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 05-Mar-2009 at 12:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 12:14
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You can't find this principal similarity between other Indo-European stories and them, for example about Sigurd and Spandiyard, the principal similarity is their invulnerability and their weak points which is the most important thing in the stories of them, their weak point is a secret that no one else knows, so no one can kill them but they finally are killed easily when this secret is revealed, of course there are some other things, like fighting against the dragon, that without them the story loses its solidarity and becomes incomplete, so we see there is no reason in the story of Achilles that him to be invulnerable, therefore his invulnerability, as Greeks themselves knows, couldn't be in the original story by Homer but just something which was added later.

Now you're making up criteria to fit your theory, as usual. Gcle expressed it eloquently in another thread: when you instead of looking at the data and make a theory from that, you make up a theory and then tries to find data to support it, it's no longer science but religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2009 at 18:43
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Anyway I believe non of them was a copy of another one, there are really some differnces between Iranian and Northen European stories and I don't deny that they developed independently but they were principally the same.
So then if they developed independently how does your theory hold water?  You have argued that the similarities between certain Norse and Iranian stories mean they are connected and from a common Scythian origin.  If they developed independently how could they have the common Scythian origin?
Quote You can't find this principal similarity between other Indo-European stories and them, for example about Sigurd and Spandiyard, the principal similarity is their invulnerability and their weak points which is the most important thing in the stories of them, their weak point is a secret that no one else knows, so no one can kill them but they finally are killed easily when this secret is revealed, of course there are some other things, like fighting against the dragon, that without them the story loses its solidarity and becomes incomplete, so we see there is no reason in the story of Achilles that him to be invulnerable, therefore his invulnerability, as Greeks themselves know, couldn't be in the original story by Homer but just something which was added later.
Now you are just changing your criteria for comparison.  You need to look at source before you come up with a theory, not the other way around.  If you did this you would cut out a lot of criticism.  
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