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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 23:15
King John, I didn't say you are a nationalist but I said I don't think those who are said to be nationalists think like you, I meant what you say does not sound nationalist, I don't know what I should call it exactly, maybe that is an eurocentric view.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 23:54
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

King John, I didn't say you are a nationalist but I said I don't think those who are said to be nationalists think like you, I meant what you say does not sound nationalist, I don't know what I should call it exactly, maybe that is an eurocentric view.
So you never called me a nationalist?  I would have to say that your own words deceive you.  Here is a quote from one of your posts on the previous page of this thread.  
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
Ok, according to English sources, we know one of the original inhabitants of ancient England were Scythians, if you think all of them were wrong (!!), you should be able to prove Scythians never migrated to England in the ancient times, of course there can be some other things in those books which have been proved to be wrong but it never means that they were wrong about Scythians too, I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism!
[I have made the pertinent part of your quote bold.]  I would say that the last clause of your last sentence (the bold part) accuses me of nationalism.  In that last clause you specifically call me a nationalist, so I ask you again how am I a nationalist and can you provide at least one instance of my "nationalism"? 

How is my critique of your theory eurocentric?  All I have done is point out that you don't quite understand the historiography of medieval England nor do you understand the source criticism of Early and Late Medieval England.  I have never said that Scythians could never had possibly contributed to Arthurian Legends or Norse Mythology, I said it is unlikely.  I said this for various reasons, ie: for your claims about Arthuriana I pointed out that the thing you connect with Scythian origins comes into Arthuriana in the twelfth century.  I also pointed out the need for a similar historiographical story about the coming of the Anglo-Saxons to Britain.  I noted recent scholarship that explains why Bede lays out the origins of England in the way he does.  These statements are not Eurocentric nor are they nationalstic.  Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't mean that they are a nationalist or ethnocentric (Eurocentric in this case) in some way.  Please refrain from leveling such meritless accusations against me.


Edited by King John - 02-Mar-2009 at 08:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 07:55
But you just take what you like. It is already said, Britain shall have its name from Brutus. Do you believe this? The Saxons shall be the descendants of the army of Alexander. So the Saxons are Greek not Scythians, aren't they? Do you believe it? No, why not? It stands in the sources, so it must be true, mustn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 10:57
A slight correction, Troy was in Turkey. So we are technically Asians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 11:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 12:44
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

King John, I didn't say you are a nationalist but I said I don't think those who are said to be nationalists think like you, I meant what you say does not sound nationalist, I don't know what I should call it exactly, maybe that is an eurocentric view.
So you never called me a nationalist?  I would have to say that your own words deceive you.  Here is a quote from one of your posts on the previous page of this thread.  
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
Ok, according to English sources, we know one of the original inhabitants of ancient England were Scythians, if you think all of them were wrong (!!), you should be able to prove Scythians never migrated to England in the ancient times, of course there can be some other things in those books which have been proved to be wrong but it never means that they were wrong about Scythians too, I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism!
[I have made the pertinent part of your quote bold.]  I would say that the last clause of your last sentence (the bold part) accuses me of nationalism.  In that last clause you specifically call me a nationalist, so I ask you again how am I a nationalist and can you provide at least one instance of my "nationalism"? 
According to my bolded quote, if you didn't deny with no reason what I said about the original inhabitants of ancient England, then you wouldn't be a biased nationalist but if you did it then what would you call yourself? an eurocentric?!


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Mar-2009 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 12:45
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

According to my bolded quote, if you didn't deny with no reason what I said about the original inhabitants of ancient England, then you wouldn't be a biased nationalist but if you did it then what would you call yourself?

You have offered no proof at all. Go back and read all responses again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 12:51
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

According to my bolded quote, if you didn't deny with no reason what I said about the original inhabitants of ancient England, then you wouldn't be a biased nationalist but if you did it then what would you call yourself?

You have offered no proof at all. Go back and read all responses again.
What proof can be stronger than their own English sources?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 12:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

According to my bolded quote, if you didn't deny with no reason what I said about the original inhabitants of ancient England, then you wouldn't be a biased nationalist but if you did it then what would you call yourself?

You have offered no proof at all. Go back and read all responses again.
What proof can be stronger than their own English sources?

This has been explained to you so many times, latest a couple of posts above this. It's amazing someone claiming to have a PhD degree doesn't know the basics of source criticism, something which is taught from high school levels. Doesn't it strike you as interesting that no one agrees with you? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 13:08
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

But you just take what you like. It is already said, Britain shall have its name from Brutus. Do you believe this? The Saxons shall be the descendants of the army of Alexander. So the Saxons are Greek not Scythians, aren't they? Do you believe it? No, why not? It stands in the sources, so it must be true, mustn't it?
AS I said the real history could be mixed with the mythical hisotry after some generations, but it never means all things that you read in the medieval sources are wrong, for example it could be true that Scythians served in the army of Alexander against the Persian empire, in the same way it can be said that a group of Scythians migrated to England, how can you prove that was certainly wrong when you have already no access to the primary sources about it?! I think you know that the aim of source criticism is not to ignore secondary sources but to extract historical facts from them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 13:11
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

According to my bolded quote, if you didn't deny with no reason what I said about the original inhabitants of ancient England, then you wouldn't be a biased nationalist but if you did it then what would you call yourself?

You have offered no proof at all. Go back and read all responses again.
What proof can be stronger than their own English sources?

This has been explained to you so many times, latest a couple of posts above this. It's amazing someone claiming to have a PhD degree doesn't know the basics of source criticism, something which is taught from high school levels. Doesn't it strike you as interesting that no one agrees with you? 
Would you please explain a little about source criticism to me?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 13:17
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Would you please explain a little about source criticism to me?!

I and others already did, multiple times in at least two threads. Your responses were in all cases to simply ignore it and post some other source you just googled but didn't read through. Again, doesn't it make you think a little bit when no one agrees with you? No German, no Iranian, not anyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 13:49
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Would you please explain a little about source criticism to me?!

I and others already did, multiple times in at least two threads. Your responses were in all cases to simply ignore it and post some other source you just googled but didn't read through. Again, doesn't it make you think a little bit when no one agrees with you? No German, no Iranian, not anyone.
Please read my above reply to beorna, your imagination about source criticism is wrong, I don't expect that people who don't know about it to agree with me, the importnat point is that all English sources agree with me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 14:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Would you please explain a little about source criticism to me?!

I and others already did, multiple times in at least two threads. Your responses were in all cases to simply ignore it and post some other source you just googled but didn't read through. Again, doesn't it make you think a little bit when no one agrees with you? No German, no Iranian, not anyone.
Please read my above reply to beorna, your imagination about source criticism is wrong, I don't expect that people who don't know about it to agree with me, the importnat point is that all English sources agree with me.

What imagination? You've shown quite clearly what kind of method you are using (googling, not reading, posting). You've used writings from persons like Turner and Milton and considered them facts. for example, you've used sources created as an argument for ethnical extermination of the Irish, thus misinterpreting it's contents. Your post above is an hind-sight construction to try to justify your belief. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_criticism

Quote ...the importnat point is that all English sources agree with me.

No single modern scholar on English history agrees with you. If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected. 


Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Mar-2009 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 15:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Would you please explain a little about source criticism to me?!

I and others already did, multiple times in at least two threads. Your responses were in all cases to simply ignore it and post some other source you just googled but didn't read through. Again, doesn't it make you think a little bit when no one agrees with you? No German, no Iranian, not anyone.
Please read my above reply to beorna, your imagination about source criticism is wrong, I don't expect that people who don't know about it to agree with me, the importnat point is that all English sources agree with me.
All English sources don't agree with you. Only one possible and that from someone who probably couldn't tell a Scythian from a Cimmerian or a Turk. Nennius has three references to Scythian, Scythi and Scythia. (The only referendces to a word beginning with 'Scyth...').
Originally posted by Nennius Nennius wrote:

15. According to the most learned among the Scots, if any one desires to learn what I am now going to state, Ireland was a desert, and uninhabited, when the children of Israel crossed the Red Sea, in which, as we read in the Book of the Law, the Egyptians who followed them were drowned. At that period, there lived among this people, with a numerous family, a Scythian of noble birth, who had been banished from his country and did not go to pursue the people of God. The Egyptians who were left, seeing the destruction of the great men of their nation, and fearing lest he should possess himself of their territory, took counsel together, and expelled him. Thus reduced, he wandered forty-two years in Africa, and arrived, with his family, at the altars of the Philistines, by the Lake of Osiers. Then passing between Rusicada and the hilly country of Syria, they travelled by the river Malva through Mauritania as far as the Pillars of Hercules; and crossing the Tyrrhene Sea, landed in Spain, where they continued many years, having greatly increased and multiplied. Thence, a thousand and two years after the Egyptians were lost in the Red Sea, they passed into Ireland, and the district of Dalrieta.
That passage is obviously full of untrue fabrications and legends, but in any case it does not refer to any Scythians entering England.
Originally posted by Nennius Nennius wrote:

The Britons were thus called from Brutus: Brutus was the son of Hisicion, Hisicion was the son of Alanus, Alanus was the son of Rhea Silvia, Fhea Silvia was the daughter of Numa Pompilius, Numa was the son of Ascanius, Ascanius of Eneas, Eneas of Anchises, Anchises of Troius, Troius of Dardanus, Dardanus of Flisa, Flisa of Juuin, Juuin of Japheth; but Japheth had seven sons; from the first named Gomer, descended the Galli; from the second, Magog, the Scythi and Gothi; from the third, Madian, the Medi; from the fourth, Juuan, the Greeks; from the fifth, Tubal, arose the Hebrei, Hispani, and Itali; from the sixth, Mosoch, sprung the Cappadoces; and from the seventh, named Tiras, descended the Thraces: these are the sons of Japheth, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech.
Apart from being the usual classical/biblical/legendary nonsense the passage specifically states that the Britons were NOT descended from the 'Scythi'. Brutus, the founder of the Britons (according to Nennius) was the nine times great grandson of Japheth (Noah's son). Japheth had seven sons:
 
- Juuan, from whom the Greeks, Romans and eventually the British descended;
- Gomer, ancestor of the Gauls;
- Magog, ancestor of both the Scythians and the Goths (otherwise different peoples);
- Madian, whose line produced the Medes;
- Tubal, ancestor of the Jews, the Spanish and the Italians;
- Masoch, who led to the Cappadocians;
- Tiras, ancestor of the Thracians.
 
So the only way in which the British and the Scythians were connected, according to Nennius, was that they descended from the same son of Noah. Which isn't particularly close.
Which takes us to the only case where there is any reference to Scythians actally being in early England:
Originally posted by Nennius Nennius wrote:

But Hengist, in whom united craft and penetration, perceiving he had to act with an ignorant king, and a fluctuating people, incapable of opposing much resistance, replied to Vortigern, "We are, indeed, few in number; but, if you will give us leave, we will send to our country for an additional number of forces, with whom we will fight for you and your subjects." Vortigern assenting to this proposal, messengers were despatched to Scythia, where selecting a number of warlike troops, they returned with sixteen vessels, bringing with them the beautiful daughter of Hengist. And now the Saxon chief prepared an entertainment, to which he invited the king, his officers, and Ceretic, his interpreter, having
previously enjoined his daughter to serve them so profusely with wine and ale, that they might soon become intoxicated. This plan succeeded; and Vortigern, at the instigation of the devil, and enamoured with the beauty of the damsel, demanded her, through the medium of his interpreter, of the father, promising to give for her whatever he should ask.
So at one point, after writing Saxon everywhere else to refer to Hengist and his people, he suddenly and once only refers to them getting reinforcements from 'Scythia'. This as against one reference to a Scythian family migrating to Spain from Africa, and then settling some in Ireland, and a reference specifically denying that the British descended from Scythians, without going all the way back to the Flood.
 
More telling though is the fact that the original Latin text does not mention Scythia at all. In the passage quoted above the Latin is "laegati transfretauerunt trans tithicam uallem,
 
 
'Tithicam' is hard to translate (Lewis and Short don't know it) and is only a rarely used expession from post-classical Latin (apparently in Gildas for instance). But the general opinion seems to be that it is a poetic form for 'valley of the sea'  with 'tithica' = 'marina', so the sense of the passage is simply that messengers were sent across the sea - possibly 'across the narrow seas' occurs to me.
 
"TJie Hisperica Famina and Gildas.

The chief word which has been quoted as tending to connect the Hisperica Famina with Gildas is the adjective tithica (= marina), which is found in the De excidio c. 19"
 
  
So this 'Scythia' is a figment of the translator's imagination, and in inspection vanishes completly like a burned away fog from the landscape.
Why you should think your claim has any credibility at all is a complete mystery.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-Mar-2009 at 15:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 16:32
great job gcle, but I don't think it can change Cyrus mind at all. But it's for sure good for all those who want to learn about history and could perhaps been irritated by Cyrus tales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 16:51
The problem is that when you see a historical fact is mixed with some mythical or religion things, you can deny it!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 17:06
I think another probelm is that you know almost nothing about Iranian culture and its origin, it tottally doesn't matter for you what Avesta or other ancient Iranian books say, you just imagine the original land of Iranians to be somewhere around modern Iran, Central Asia or the Black sea, so you can never believe that there could be any relation between Iranians and northern Europeans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 17:16
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

More telling though is the fact that the original Latin text does not mention Scythia at all. In the passage quoted above the Latin is "laegati transfretauerunt trans tithicam uallem,
 
 
'Tithicam' is hard to translate (Lewis and Short don't know it) and is only a rarely used expession from post-classical Latin (apparently in Gildas for instance). But the general opinion seems to be that it is a poetic form for 'valley of the sea'  with 'tithica' = 'marina', so the sense of the passage is simply that messengers were sent across the sea - possibly 'across the narrow seas' occurs to me.
 
"TJie Hisperica Famina and Gildas.

The chief word which has been quoted as tending to connect the Hisperica Famina with Gildas is the adjective tithica (= marina), which is found in the De excidio c. 19"
 
  
So this 'Scythia' is a figment of the translator's imagination, and in inspection vanishes completly like a burned away fog from the landscape.
It's not that simple. Tithicus,-a is an unknown word in post-Classical Latin.
 
It can be that "Tithica" is a corruption from "Scythica" as the manuscripts are hesitant in this point. See for example a 19th century edition of Gildas: http://books.google.com/books?id=FDEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA24
 
The "general opinion" is that this word is part of the so-called Hesperic vocabulary, i.e. the Latin used by a few early Christian monks in the British Isles. It may be a Celtic word, but also considering these monks had some little familiarity with Greek language and mythology, "tithica" can be an adjective related to Tethys (either a corrupted "tethica" or even originally "tithica" as "Tethys", IIRC, it may have been prounounced in that era "tithis"), a Greek sea goddess. Nennius seem to have copied this syntagm from Gildas (De excidio 19: http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/arthist/vortigernquotesgil.htm - see the same "trans Tithicam vallem").
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 17:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I think another probelm is that you know almost nothing about Iranian culture and its origin, it tottally doesn't matter for you what Avesta or other ancient Iranian books say, you just imagine the original land of Iranians to be somewhere around modern Iran, Central Asia or the Black sea, so you can never believe that there could be any relation between Iranians and northern Europeans.


I'm not claiming to know much about Iranian culture, but you have shown extreme ignorance and lack of knowledge when it comes to European culture and history. Do you really expect to take someone seriously who uses European propaganda scripts as a source, and constantly mix up English, German and Saxon (that's like mixing Arabic, Iranian and Persian)? That you state theories and myths as facts, without any backing at all, and then call those who object to be "denying", doesn't really help either. That attitude is horrible. A real scholar doesn't present a hypthesis as was it a fact and accuses people of nationalism as a reply to counterarguments.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-Mar-2009 at 17:24
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