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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 19:50
Existence of a trickster god in different mythologies is not a wonderful thing, we are not just talking about some very usual similarities which can be even found between Germanic peoples and Martians or the supposed inhabitants of other planets, on the other hand, our discussion is also not about some common Indo-Eurropean stories which can be found in all Indo-European cultures but just somethings which are common in Iranian and Germanic cultures, or better to say, some stories which can be said to have Scythian origins.

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 26-Feb-2009 at 19:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 20:04
You really haven't proven the story's "Scythian origin."  You also didn't answer my questions, Cyrus.  Similarities in mythologies don't show one culture being the ancestor of another.  Ymir and Yima are considered to be derived from the same IE root.1 The similarities between the two are due to their common IE origins not because of some Scythian ancestry of the Norse.  You really should read up on IE Mythology you might find that your comparisons are explained by common IE origins of Scythians and Norse.  

Could you please explain the similarities between Ymir and Yima/Yama?
  


Edited by King John - 26-Feb-2009 at 20:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 20:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

King John, first answer this question, in the Norse and Iranian mythologies, there are Ymir and Yima, two similar words, which are pronounced almost the same, mean the same, have the same characteristics, the same stories are said about them, ... Do you believe that there was absolutely no connection between them?
Yama and Ymir are two similar words, but the personages involved have nothing in common at all apart from being associated with (different) myths of origin. They're not even both gods, or both human.
 
So no there's no connection between them any more than there was between Forrest Mars and the Roman god of war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 20:31
Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 21:11
I really don't know what I should say! I don't think that people who are called ultra-nationalists think like you, maybe I don't know much about Eurocentrism! Do you think that you are glorifying the Germanic culture when you deny any influence from Iranian culture on it? I don't know why you easily believe something which is Germanic to be originaly from Romans, Celts and other peoples but never from their eastern Iranian neighbours! According to your belief, it seems there was a great wall between ancient Sarmatia/Scythia and Germania, so that even one word couldn't pass from the east to the west!! What is wrong to say through a small hole a word like "Saxon" reached beyond the wall from the east? Does it cause Germanic people to feel contempt?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 21:35


Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I really don't know what I should say! I don't think that people who are called ultra-nationalists think like you, maybe I don't know much about Eurocentrism! Do you think that you are glorifying the Germanic culture when you deny any influence from Iranian culture on it? I don't know why you easily believe something which is Germanic to be originaly from Romans, Celts and other peoples but never from their eastern Iranian neighbours! According to your belief, it seems there was a great wall between ancient Sarmatia/Scythia and Germania, so that even one word couldn't pass from the east to the west!! What is wrong to say through a small hole a word like "Saxon" reached beyond the wall from the east? Does it cause Germanic people to feel contempt?!

Let's calm down and think. I'm trying to explain why people react as they do: your arguments are unfounded and illogical. That's why people object. Stop bringing nationalism into it. Nobody cares. Nazism is gone, nobody gives a damn about some special Germanic ancestry you are implying all the time (and people never did, except maybe the Germans during the first half of the 20th century). Those English chronicles who were inventing a Scyth ancestry did it because it would be glorious. The older traces of your people the better. Nowadays people don't really care at all. We all came from Africa from the beginning anyway.

What I do care about is your argumentation, which is extremely lacking. Hyperbole, home-made etymologies mixed with words you changed the spelling of to fit your theories. Sources that doesn't support you, sources that have been considered untrustworthy for centuries. If you want to be taken seriously you need at least to start reading your own sources before you post them as support for your theories.

Anyhow,
The Germanic peoples have obviously some eastern roots since they speak an IE language. Iranians share the same IE origin, who has disputed that? However, nothing, absolutely nothing you have shown, is solid evidence of a Scythian ancestry.

Edited by Styrbiorn - 26-Feb-2009 at 21:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 22:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I really don't know what I should say! I don't think that people who are called ultra-nationalists think like you, maybe I don't know much about Eurocentrism! Do you think that you are glorifying the Germanic culture when you deny any influence from Iranian culture on it? I don't know why you easily believe something which is Germanic to be originaly from Romans, Celts and other peoples but never from their eastern Iranian neighbours! According to your belief, it seems there was a great wall between ancient Sarmatia/Scythia and Germania, so that even one word couldn't pass from the east to the west!! What is wrong to say through a small hole a word like "Saxon" reached beyond the wall from the east? Does it cause Germanic people to feel contempt?!
Where did this come from, Cyrus?  I hope you are not referring to me as an Ultra-Nationalist.  Glorifying, no I don't intend to glorify any culture, just to point out that your "Iranian influence" is actually vestiges of IE culture (mythology and religion specifically).  When have I ever said that it is impossible that words were borrowed or stories borrow?  In fact I have never said that, what I have said is that there is an easier answer to the question.  What is wrong with saying a word like Saxon is not Iranian?  Why is the above quote your response?  If your theory is that strong then why do you not counter with strong evidence?  The fact of the matter is that claims that are extraordinary or go against the prevailing scholarship on the subject need extraordinary evidence and need to be strong enough to overturn the prevailing scholarship.  I would like to point out a second time that I never spoke anything about nation-states, nor have I espoused any sort of nationalistic claims.  I have merely stated that the more plausible explanation for the similarities is that both cultures had the same origins – Indo-European.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 22:45

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I believe the cult of the Iranian god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness, existed in the northern Europe before the Roman times, for example we know the birthday of Mithra which is called Yule/Yuletide (Yalda in modern Persian) in both Iranian and Germanic languages, was celebrated on December 25 with the same Iranian ceremonies in those regions from the old times (before Christ)

December 25 in the old calendar was the winter solstice, so lots of people had celebrations on this date. Native Americans had celebrations on Dec 25 by the Julian calendar, long before even the Vikings arrived.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 18:32
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
Ok, according to English sources, we know one of the original inhabitants of ancient England were Scythians, if you think all of them were wrong (!!), you should be able to prove Scythians never migrated to England in the ancient times, of course there can be some other things in those books which have been proved to be wrong but it never means that they were wrong about Scythians too, I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 20:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
Ok, according to English sources, we know one of the original inhabitants of ancient England were Scythians,
1. This is not a response to the post you quoted, if you insist on quoting my post please actually address them.  2. Actually it's one independent English source used by multiple chroniclers and other writers.
Quote if you think all of them were wrong (!!), you should be able to prove Scythians never migrated to England in the ancient times, of course there can be some other things in those books which have been proved to be wrong but it never means that they were wrong about Scythians too,
You should prove that they actually did migrate there.  We do know that there was a group of Sarmatians in England in the 2nd Century AD under Marcus Aurelius, but that doesn't mean that they were there before then.  Keep in mind that the Roman Emperor Hadrian had a wall constructed to keep out "barbarians" from the North (ie: Brigantes (Celts) and Picts).  This was started in 122 AD so in all probability the Picts were present in Britain before the Roman invasion.  The problem is that you can't know since no written records exist before the Roman invasion.  You probably should read the book Migration and Mythmaking in Anglo-Saxon England, specifically you should read pages 49-71.  In this book Howe explains the formulaic nature of migration myths specifically on page 50 Howe states: "Although Bede's narrative of these settlements is ordered subsequently, the history of each tribe reveals an archetypal pattern: migration across the sea and then settlement on the island."  Howe later explains why Bede includes Picts and Irish into his account of the English (since they are not English).  Stating: "...Bede attaches an account of the decline and fall of Rome.  From this reading of Gildas, he saw the Picts and Irish as the island counterparts of the barbarians who sacked Rome.  As he relates their raids on a Britain left vulnerable by Roman withdrawal."  Howe continues on page 51, "...it [the reference of 'two transmarine peoples'] was necessary if he was to place the devestation worked by those two native peoples within the paradigm of island history.  For Bede, as for Gildas, history is a drama played out on an island stage by those who cross the sea–even those who inhabit that same island."  As can be seen from the above quotes Bede read earlier works of history about the fall of Rome in which a Christian Rome was beset upon by heathen barbarians.  Bede then placed his island (England) as the new Rome and explained its history in Roman terms.  Because the English were beset by heathen barbarians Bede needed to come up with a way to give one of these groups other barbarian origins.  
Quote I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism!
What reason-less denial?  I believe in one of my first posts I pointed out why my criticism of your use of sources was valid and more reasonable than your use of the sources in question.  Furthermore my lack of agreement with your claims has nothing to do with nationalism, in fact I'm not English, Irish, Scottish, German, Scandinavian, Welsh, or a member of any other national group about which we have spoken, so how could I be a nationalist?  I would also like to point out that I never said anything about any nation state.  The only person that has brought up nationalism and nations is you.  Please provide specific instances of my nationalism in this thread.  In conclusion I would like to say that my criticism (denial) of your claim has been founded on the source and criticism of them.  I would also like to say that I didn't deny you claim I just pointed out a few weaknesses, specifically in buying into medieval chronicles too much.  I will say it again, medieval chronicles are often skewed in perspective and are not reliable for events that took place beyond the living memory of the time in which the chronicle was started/written.  This is not a nationalistic remark, just a methodological one asking you to show a little source criticism, which as a PhD you shouldn't have to be told to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 21:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
Ok, according to English sources, we know one of the original inhabitants of ancient England were Scythians, if you think all of them were wrong (!!),
There's not a shred of a reason to believe they were accurate. There are even more ridiculous stories among English and everybody else's sources. It may be a surprise to you, but Beowulf did not actually kill the monster Grendel, and Sir Lancelot didn't actually rescue Guinevere from being burned alive and Roland wasn't killed at Roncesvalles.
 
Mary Poppins couldn't actually fly.
 
These things were made up. I am pretty sure that Nennius and Bede and the others had no idea whatsoever about who the Scythians were.
Quote
you should be able to prove Scythians never migrated to England in the ancient times, of course there can be some other things in those books which have been proved to be wrong
Nobody has proven that the Beowulf saga is wrong, but you'd have to be pretty zany to believe it.
Quote
 but it never means that they were wrong about Scythians too,
What it means is that the stories are fanciful and made up and rhere is no reason to believe any of them unless they are backed up by considerable amounts of evidence elsewhere.
Quote
I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism!
Nothing reasonless about it. And you're a fine one to talk about nationalism - you've just hijacked yet another thread here to try and spread nationalist myths.


Edited by gcle2003 - 27-Feb-2009 at 21:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 21:23

King John, when I said "Ok" I meant I accepted to go back to the original thread, we were talking about the original inhabitants of ancient England, in a very logical manner, I used English sources and said Scythians were among them, if we don't want to deny it with no reason, it can be said from an optimistic view that at least early medieval English historians had access to some now lost ancient sources, it is not strange that real history is mixed with mythical history after some generations, if you really want to perform source criticism then you should extract the real history, not to discard all available sources!



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 27-Feb-2009 at 21:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 21:34
Well, if you are to believe everything Medieval British sources say, you must also believe that Britain took its name from Brutus:

Quote "Brittannia insula a quodam Bruto consule Romano dicta" (Historia Brittonum, 7, ed. Th. Momsen)


and that it is 800 miles long and 200 miles wide:

Quote haec consurgit ab Africo boreali ad occidentem versus: dccc in longitudine milium, cc in latitudine spatium habet. (ibid.)


I'm sure you will agree that, given these bits of information, medieval chronicles are far from infallible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 04:08
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:



 

Those English chronicles who were inventing a Scyth ancestry did it because it would be glorious.
 
However, nothing, absolutely nothing you have shown, is solid evidence of a Scythian ancestry.
 
 
 
The term " Scythian " has been thrown around senselessly.The term is similar to Tatars in that it was spread throughout the world without regard to its original meaning.I wonder if " Scythians " or whoever they were ever existed as an enthnicty other than a generic label.
 
In East Asia,it's the S Korean ultra-nationalists fancy any falsehood LOL of " Scythian " connection to Korean race & culture.It's just one step further of Koreans' vigorous De-Sinicization campaign since 1950's.They would linkup anyone or any faraway culture that can  conveniently LOL distance them from " the Chinese ".
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 28-Feb-2009 at 06:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 04:48
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Let's also keep in mind that this discussion is tangental to the original thread.  I would suggest opening a different thread in which we can discuss the similarities and differences between Iranian and Germanic mythology.
Ok, according to English sources, we know one of the original inhabitants of ancient England were Scythians, if you think all of them were wrong (!!), you should be able to prove Scythians never migrated to England in the ancient times, of course there can be some other things in those books which have been proved to be wrong but it never means that they were wrong about Scythians too, I have to say the reasonless denial just shows your biased nationalism!

The closest related group to the ancient Britons, outside the British Isles of course, is the Basques - a group that does not speak an Indo-European language.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 05:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

King John, when I said "Ok" I meant I accepted to go back to the original thread, we were talking about the original inhabitants of ancient England, in a very logical manner, I used English sources and said Scythians were among them, if we don't want to deny it with no reason, it can be said from an optimistic view that at least early medieval English historians had access to some now lost ancient sources, it is not strange that real history is mixed with mythical history after some generations, if you really want to perform source criticism then you should extract the real history, not to discard all available sources!

Who discarded available sources?  I certainly did not, I told you to be more critical of your sources – not everything that Bede said was true.  Please address the points I made in my last post if you want to begin a dialogue with me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 06:41
Are your going to answer my questions, Cyrus?  Or are you going to ignore them?  Please address my last post (7 posts above this one).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 14:00
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Are your going to answer my questions, Cyrus?  Or are you going to ignore them?  Please address my last post (7 posts above this one).
What were your questions?! As I read, you just asked "What reason-less denial?" and then said "medieval chronicles are often skewed in perspective and are not reliable for events that took place beyond the living memory of the time in which the chronicle was started/written." and I replied "if we don't want to deny it with no reason, it can be said from an optimistic view that at least early medieval English historians had access to some now lost ancient sources".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 17:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Are your going to answer my questions, Cyrus?  Or are you going to ignore them?  Please address my last post (7 posts above this one).
What were your questions?! As I read, you just asked "What reason-less denial?" and then said "medieval chronicles are often skewed in perspective and are not reliable for events that took place beyond the living memory of the time in which the chronicle was started/written." and I replied "if we don't want to deny it with no reason, it can be said from an optimistic view that at least early medieval English historians had access to some now lost ancient sources".
You really need to read more carefully.  You clearly missed what was between the denial question and the perspective statement.    Because of this misreading I will provide that paragraph again for you.  Here it is
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

What reason-less denial?  I believe in one of my first posts I pointed out why my criticism of your use of sources was valid and more reasonable than your use of the sources in question.  Furthermore my lack of agreement with your claims has nothing to do with nationalism, in fact I'm not English, Irish, Scottish, German, Scandinavian, Welsh, or a member of any other national group about which we have spoken, so how could I be a nationalist?  I would also like to point out that I never said anything about any nation state.  The only person that has brought up nationalism and nations is you.  Please provide specific instances of my nationalism in this thread.
Now I will go through and show you the other questions I asked.  1. What reason-less denial.  2. lack of agreement with your claims has nothing to do with nationalism, in fact I'm not English, Irish, Scottish, German, Scandinavian, Welsh, or a member of any other national group about which we have spoken, so how could I be a nationalist?"  3. Please provide specific instances of my nationalism in this thread.  All three are in bold so you won't miss them this time.  If you want to accuse people of nationalism just because they don't agree with you, you better have some strong evidence and you better provide it when need be.

I would also like to point out that I have asked question earlier in this thread that have still gone unanswered.  Once I was told something along the lines of, answer this question and then I will answer your.  Well, I answered that question and got no response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chookie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 22:09
One thing which has been pretty much disregarded in this thread is trade. Where trade*, traders and caravan guards go, so too do stories, legends, tales and lies...............


*Oh yes, and women.......
They make a desert and they call it peace
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