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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 23:08

But this is influenced by antique literature, those of the Romans and even the Greeks, when the European barbarian population was devided into just two groups, Celts and Scythians. The other source is the bible. The medieval writers tried to link their history with those of (their) biblical ancestors. Armenia was mentioned above. This is where Noah's arch is thought to be.

All the sources Cyrus uses are very important for history, but not because they tell us what was but because these sources can tell us how people thought about their history. It is Cyrus great mistake that he takes these stories for true.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 05:35
 
 
double post  
 


Edited by pebbles - 19-Feb-2009 at 05:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 05:48
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

I have one question.Then,is there ever a strong kinship between English & Germans these past centuries since the creation of England.
 
Yes, there was. Especially in the Medieval times. And don't forgetBig smile the royal house of England is of German origin. Both Lizzy and Phil belong to German houses, Saxon-Coburg-Gotha and Battenberg.
 
 
How about present time,any subconscious affinity within these two populations in Europe or deep seated rivalry hinders it ?
 
Yes .. Britain's House of Wndsor is of German origin ( actually,foreign stock ... those poor conquered indigenous Britons  Cry ).This begs the question,how come anti-German sentiment exists with the late Lord Mountbatten " Anglicized " his surname to appease the English populace.Can we conclude Britain's royal family has unbroken Germanic patrilineal line ( excluding the Norman kings ) ?
 
Only in recent years,I discovered in fact that many Europe's dynasties have been " Germanic stock " included Mexico's last European emperor and empress.I am still puzzle by powerful European states ( especially England ) have always tried to keep down Germany ( the country ) and denied her place in the sun.I once had one casual conversation with a White middle-aged colleague regarding Germany & the Germans,he say very little and only blurred out one word " strong " Confused.
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 19-Feb-2009 at 14:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 06:04
Unfortuantely nowadays in Europe the truly enlightened men are considered to be those who say biblical stories are untrue or mythical and try to disprove religious theories which are based on the bibile, for this purpose they have to deny all historical sources which talk about a migration from a region that religious theories also confirm them, it doesn't matter for them that this region is Scythia that is said to be the original land of Indo-European people, if it is even proved by all scholars then they will say Indo-Europeans never put their feet on England. Who is a racist? I think someone who says the pure race of our ancestors never mixed with migrated people from inferior lands because it is certainly impossible to prove there has never been any migration from a land to another land in Europe in very old times.
 
Of course there have been some real researches like Prof. Scott Littleton and Dr. Linda Ann Malcor who dig out the historical facts and complile valuable books like "From Scythia to Camelot" http://books.google.com/books?id=x9v0FaIgEFEC&printsec=frontcover (published in 2000), 400 pages about this important ignored fact.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 19-Feb-2009 at 06:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 07:00

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Who is a racist? I think someone who says the pure race of our ancestors never mixed with migrated people from inferior lands

Wouldn't that make one a, er, landist?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 08:56
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Of course there have been some real researches like Prof. Scott Littleton and Dr. Linda Ann Malcor who dig out the historical facts and complile valuable books like "From Scythia to Camelot" http://books.google.com/books?id=x9v0FaIgEFEC&printsec=frontcover (published in 2000), 400 pages about this important ignored fact.
You probably google out search terms and bring here whatever you find, even you haven't read it. That book is not about prehistoric migrations of Scythians, but about some Sarmatian elements settled by Romans in Britain (actually some Iazyges deployed there under the command of Lucius Artorius Castus, a 2nd century Roman officer - but please note, he was not of Sarmatian extraction!) which allegedly inspired the Arthurian legend. A fringe theory, but it is not related with your theories with anything else but a finding a connections between Iranian speaking populations and England. Can you quote the two authors saying Scythian and Old English were related languages? Can you quote the two for a migration in England as you usually claim in your threads?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 11:48
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

I have one question.Then,is there ever a strong kinship between English & Germans these past centuries since the creation of England.
 
Yes, there was. Especially in the Medieval times. And don't forgetBig smile the royal house of England is of German origin. Both Lizzy and Phil belong to German houses, Saxon-Coburg-Gotha and Battenberg.
 
 
How about present time,any subconscious affinity within these two populations in Europe or deep seated rivalry hinders it ?
On the whole, yes, despite the wars. Cousins can be intense rivals. On the whole in my experience the English nowadays - even during WW2 - felt closer to the Germanic peoples (Scandinavians, Dutch/Flemings, Germans) than to other Europeans.
Quote  
Yes .. Britain's House of Wndsor is of German origin ( actually,foreign stock ... those poor conquered indigenous Britons  Cry ).
Only because you are taking a patrilineal line. Look at the Queen's ancestors say five generations back and you'll find most of them are English or Scots. Many of them, possibly most, are not even aristocratic.
 
Incidentally, not one of the Queen's ancestors was born in the German Empire or the German Republic, but only in precursor states to them.
Quote
This begs the question,how come anti-German sentiment exists with the late Lord Mountbatten " Anglicized " his surname to appease the English populace.
It was a fairly temporary feeling (and was more intense in the US, I believe.) It wasn't the 'late Lord Mountbatten' who changed his name actually, but his father, Prince (not Lord) Louis, who followed the example of the King and most descendants of aristocratic German dynasties connected with the Royal Family in 1917. The change of surname wasn't actually as important as the relinquishing of the German titles: it's a bitt odd to call yourself a German prince while fighting against Germany.
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Can we conclude Britain's royal family has unbroken Germanic patrineal line ( excluding the Nornam kings ) ?
I'm a bit confused by that. The Anglo-Saxons after all are Germanic, including the ones who ruled in Scotland. So are the Normans. The patrilineal line has been broken many times, so it's difficult to trace it all back, but the Tudor line went back to the Welsh in the person of Owen Tudor.  
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Only in recent years,I discovered in fact that many Europe's dynasties have been " Germanic stock " included Mexico's last European emperor and empress.
There is really only one single European 'Royal Family'. The most widespread influence in its heredity is Danish (IIRC), with English being in a strong place too. Actually the fact that Germany was a whole lot of small states until 1870 meant there were lots of 'royal' princes and princes to go round and provide suitable spouses.
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I am still puzzle by powerful European states ( especially England ) have always tried to keep down Germany ( the country ) and denied her place in the sun.
Sounds like German propaganda. The reason Germany didn't find a 'place in the sun' was because it couldn't get its act together and form a single country until 1870, which left it well behind (in the imperial race, anyway. Industrially and commercially of course the group of states we now call Germany always had 'a place in the sun'.).
 
Nothing to do with Britain.
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I once had one casual conversation with a White middle-aged colleague regarding Germany & the Germans,he say very little and only blurred out one word " strong " Confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 19:40
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Who is a racist? I think someone who says the pure race of our ancestors never mixed with migrated people from inferior lands

Wouldn't that make one a, er, landist?

Maybe or even an ancestorist or anti-migratist!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 20:23
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

You probably google out search terms and bring here whatever you find, even you haven't read it. That book is not about prehistoric migrations of Scythians, but about some Sarmatian elements settled by Romans in Britain (actually some Iazyges deployed there under the command of Lucius Artorius Castus, a 2nd century Roman officer - but please note, he was not of Sarmatian extraction!) which allegedly inspired the Arthurian legend. A fringe theory, but it is not related with your theories with anything else but a finding a connections between Iranian speaking populations and England. Can you quote the two authors saying Scythian and Old English were related languages? Can you quote the two for a migration in England as you usually claim in your threads?
It is not necessary that Scythian migration dates back 10,000 BC, we just know, according to some medieval English sources, it happened before the Middle Ages and as I myself said, it could be related to Sarmatian - Iazyg presence in England in second century AD or earlier.
I have said several times that we don't know much about Scythian language but according to ancient sources, we can say that it could be very similar to British language, for example from the first century AD Tacitus in his Germania about the eastern neighbours of Germanic peoples says that their language more resembles the British -> http://www.elfinspell.com/TacitusGermany5.html as you read in the footnote, the reason could be that they retained the Scythico-Celtic language, which long prevailed in Britain.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 19-Feb-2009 at 20:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 20:41
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

You probably google out search terms and bring here whatever you find, even you haven't read it. That book is not about prehistoric migrations of Scythians, but about some Sarmatian elements settled by Romans in Britain (actually some Iazyges deployed there under the command of Lucius Artorius Castus, a 2nd century Roman officer - but please note, he was not of Sarmatian extraction!) which allegedly inspired the Arthurian legend. A fringe theory, but it is not related with your theories with anything else but a finding a connections between Iranian speaking populations and England. Can you quote the two authors saying Scythian and Old English were related languages? Can you quote the two for a migration in England as you usually claim in your threads?

It is not necessary that Scythian migration dates back 10,000 BC, we just know, according to some medieval English sources, it happened before the Middle Ages and as I myself said, it could be related to Sarmatian - Iazyg presence in England in second century AD or earlier.

I have said several times that we don't know much about Scythian language but according to ancient sources, we can say that it could be very similar to British language, for example from the first century AD Tacitus in his Germania about the eastern neighbours of Germanic peoples says that their language more resembles the British -> http://www.elfinspell.com/TacitusGermany5.html as you read in the footnote, the reason could be that they retained the Scythico-Celtic language, which long prevailed in Britain.


British – you mean a Celtic dialect correct? There is some speculation that the Pictish tribes were possibly pre Indo European. The ancient Picts, or last I read, immigrated from Ireland but if they are pre –Indo European then who is to stay their migration route did not come through what we now call England. The Belgae were a Germanic tribe or some scholars believe this but the Sarmations came much later and I really have never read about any large scale immigration into the British Isles by these people. Some believe that some of King Arthur’s knights were Sarmation and a recent movie about King Arthur brings that into the plot. As far as I have read this is only speculation and has not been proven. So much of King Arthur is made of legend and myth and older movies always put him at a later date than, if he was real, he lived in.

for example from the first century AD Tacitus in his Germania about the eastern neighbours of Germanic peoples says that their language more resembles the British

What page is this? I will have to pull out my copy of Tacitus Germania and check it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 20:59
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

It is not necessary that Scythian migration dates back 10,000 BC, we just know, according to some medieval English sources, it happened before the Middle Ages and as I myself said, it could be related to Sarmatian - Iazyg presence in England in second century AD or earlier.
But it was no migration, they were mainly soldiers fighting in the Roman army (and no medieval English sources know about them). At the same time in Roman Britain there were Egyptians, Thracians, Gauls, Greeks, Syrians, soldiers recruited from all the corners of the empire. And it was not only the army, it was a more profound cultural syncretism. For instance, check the religious cults of African or Near-Eastern origin, e.g. Jupiter Dolichenus, Dea Syria, Isis, etc. The Iranic element renders almost of no significance in this ethnic and cultural mosaic which was the Roman Britain.
 
Quote I have said several times that we don't know much about Scythian language but according to ancient sources, we can say that it could be very similar to British language, for example from the first century AD Tacitus in his Germania about the eastern neighbours of Germanic peoples says that their language more resembles the British -> http://www.elfinspell.com/TacitusGermany5.html as you read in the footnote, the reason could be that they retained the Scythico-Celtic language, which long prevailed in Britain.
That's because you use outdated editions of Tacitus. There's no Scythico-Celtic language. As for the Aestii, they were living on the Baltic sea shores and they are rather considered an ancient Baltic or Germanic-speaking population. Here's a newer edition of Tacitus + commentaries: http://books.google.com/books?id=9xLVEPR-ax8C&pg=PA317
 
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

What page is this? I will have to pull out my copy of Tacitus Germania and check it out.
Germania 45:
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 19-Feb-2009 at 21:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 22:25
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

It is not necessary that Scythian migration dates back 10,000 BC, we just know, according to some medieval English sources, it happened before the Middle Ages and as I myself said, it could be related to Sarmatian - Iazyg presence in England in second century AD or earlier.
But it was no migration, they were mainly soldiers fighting in the Roman army (and no medieval English sources know about them). At the same time in Roman Britain there were Egyptians, Thracians, Gauls, Greeks, Syrians, soldiers recruited from all the corners of the empire. And it was not only the army, it was a more profound cultural syncretism. For instance, check the religious cults of African or Near-Eastern origin, e.g. Jupiter Dolichenus, Dea Syria, Isis, etc. The Iranic element renders almost of no significance in this ethnic and cultural mosaic which was the Roman Britain.

 

Quote I have said several times that we don't know much about Scythian language but according to ancient sources, we can say that it could be very similar to British language, for example from the first century AD Tacitus in his Germania about the eastern neighbours of Germanic peoples says that their language more resembles the British -> http://www.elfinspell.com/TacitusGermany5.html as you read in the footnote, the reason could be that they retained the Scythico-Celtic language, which long prevailed in Britain.
That's because you use outdated editions of Tacitus. There's no Scythico-Celtic language. As for the Aestii, they were living on the Baltic sea shores and they are rather considered an ancient Baltic or Germanic-speaking population. Here's a newer edition of Tacitus + commentaries: http://books.google.com/books?id=9xLVEPR-ax8C&pg=PA317

 

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

What page is this? I will have to pull out my copy of Tacitus Germania and check it out.
Germania 45:



 

 

 

 


thanks for the link but I need time to study it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 23:32
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

   
How about present time,any subconscious affinity within these two populations in Europe or deep seated rivalry hinders it ?
I don't think that the Anglo-Saxon history of England is important for the relations between the two nations. I would say there is now just partnership. Parts of the British press try to keep the WWI and WWII alive and we have the "towel war" on the Balears, but I would no longer speak of a deep seated rivalry.
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

   Yes .. Britain's House of Wndsor is of German origin ( actually,foreign stock ... those poor conquered indigenous Britons  Cry ).This begs the question,how come anti-German sentiment exists with the late Lord Mountbatten " Anglicized " his surname to appease the English populace.Can we conclude Britain's royal family has unbroken Germanic patrilineal line ( excluding the Norman kings ) ?
I never started a research of anti-German sentiment before WWI. But I would suppose there wasn't. I don't want to say something wrong, but usually in the last hundreds of years England stood aside of my former duchy or my duchy aside them. We e.g. supported them in the war against their American colonies. The anti-Germanic feeling started with WWI and the anti-Germanic hate propaganda. You can't tell your population Germans are Huns who rape woman and slaughter children and after the war it is all forgotten. And during WWII the British population suffered under the German threat again. Not as much as others. But this is a subjective feeling. But again, exept of some British press and a usual basal stock of idiots I don't think there is still a great anti#German feeling. I met a lot of English people and never had problems.
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

   Can we conclude Britain's royal family has unbroken Germanic patrilineal line ( excluding the Norman kings ) ?
this depends of our view on it. If we take Phillip perhaps, I don't know the Battenberg family history. If we look to Lizzy II., I wouldn't call it so, cause there are so many generations, I don't think this is really important.
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

   Only in recent years,I discovered in fact that many Europe's dynasties have been " Germanic stock " included Mexico's last European emperor and empress.I am still puzzle by powerful European states ( especially England ) have always tried to keep down Germany ( the country ) and denied her place in the sun.I once had one casual conversation with a White middle-aged colleague regarding Germany & the Germans,he say very little and only blurred out one word " strong " Confused.

Well I think this is a result of our history. We have hundreds of sovereign kings and dukes and all the other titles. So it was interesting for foreign countries to get a bride from a German territory. And it was also interesting for German dynasties to give their daughters and sons abroad.

Every state tries to get power and influence and to keep their neighbours down as much as possible. The German situation is a result of their history of the breakdown of a central monarchy or the unability to install a strong monarchy for the Reich like it happened in England, Spain or France..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 23:42
I should read all the postings before I post as well. Is saw gcle2003 gave some of the answers I gave before I could do it. So some is double.
 
Tacitus said that the language of tha Aesti sounds like those of the Britons. He didn't say they spoke the same language. We shouldn't expect he knew what he wrote. He was no modern linguist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 12:16

Chilbudios, the newer edition of Tacitus that you suggested, is really interesting to read, I read some first pages of this book and found some good info about Scythians, Celts and Germanic people, I hope you yourself read it too.

For example lets see the pages 19-21: http://books.google.com/books?id=9xLVEPR-ax8C&pg=PA19

 
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 20-Feb-2009 at 12:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 13:28
Cyrus, we know that, I do so for long and I am convinced all the others here too. The problem is, even when you use good sources you cannot or won't understand it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 13:37
Cyrus, I am not sure what's your point. If anything, those paragraphs should tell you not to use the sources as you do, as most Scythian-Germanic (or Celtic-Germanic) connections are just a mental constructs, stereotypes.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 15:21
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

[
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

   Can we conclude Britain's royal family has unbroken Germanic patrilineal line ( excluding the Norman kings ) ?
this depends of our view on it. If we take Phillip perhaps, I don't know the Battenberg family history.
 
Prince Philip is not a Battenberg, at least not in the male line. His mother's father was a Battenberg/Mountbatten, though his mother didn't use the name (being a royal Princess). Philip adopted the name 'Mountbatten' from his uncle shortly before his marriage in 1947.
 
As the son of Prince Andrew of Greece Philip was born Greek but dynastically is, like his father, of the house of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, which is as much Danish as anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 11:32
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
 
 
 
How about present time,any subconscious affinity within these two populations in Europe or deep seated rivalry hinders it ?
 
[/QUOTE]
 
On the whole, yes, despite the wars. Cousins can be intense rivals. On the whole in my experience the English nowadays - even during WW2 - felt closer to the Germanic peoples (Scandinavians, Dutch/Flemings, Germans) than to other Europeans.
 
Quote  <
 
 
It's the same in the USA LOL
 
On average,most middle-class White-Americans of English or German or Scandinavian descent marry either their own or one another ( it seems preferrably,that's the case in Kansas at least ).
 
Berry/Rickner
Shank/Rivard
Barker/Rice
Gokmen/Hagaman
Sherer/Lunceford
Williams/Smith
Gettle/Quandt
Wells/Keesling
Compton/Thamann
Gross/Norton
 
I thought the Normans were French.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 21-Feb-2009 at 21:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 22:45
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
Prince Philip is not a Battenberg, at least not in the male line. His mother's father was a Battenberg/Mountbatten, though his mother didn't use the name (being a royal Princess). Philip adopted the name 'Mountbatten' from his uncle shortly before his marriage in 1947.
 
As the son of Prince Andrew of Greece Philip was born Greek but dynastically is, like his father, of the house of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, which is as much Danish as anything.
Yes, I had forgotten, from Glücksburg, you're right. But I wouldn't say it's Danish. BTW, to call the Windsors German was a joke. Yes they have German origins but when they became Kings of Britain they became British. When Katharina became Zar she was Russian and no longer German and I could name a lot more. We don't have a national nobility, it is mostly European.
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