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Evrenosgazi View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 22:51
Dear friends
 
       As I realised some of the members are confused of turkic/turkish identity. Describing turks as mongoloid or caucasian is not right in my opinion. We know that most of the turkic tribes are not from the same pool. Okay than let us talk about oghuz turks whom turkified anatolia. What was their appearance when they have arrived to anatolia? How was their physical status during the initial oghuz migration? Does anyone know any sources which writes oghuz tribes as mongoloid looking? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote feiying Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 06:56
There is one story from Hoja Effendi stories.  He mentioned that he gave a mirror to the sultan one day and he looked himself in the mirror and cried because he looked 'savage and ugly.'  I interpret this to mean that the rulers looked racially different from the subject people.  The sultan probably looked more Mongoloid and realized he looked different from the subjects around him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 15:51
Where did you hear this Hoja Effendi story? I've heard so many of his stories but never this one.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MythTR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 19:58
Evren, selam,
 
Oguzlar anadoluya geldiğinde biliyorsun Alparslan var bıyıklı ve gur saçlı olarak tasvir edilen, daha sonra arkalarından gelen kıpçak türkleri var ki onlarda bildiğimiz üzere Türk ırkının en güzeli olan. Uzun boylu sarışın renkli gözlü of of of of :D
 
For english :  (:
 
As I know, first Alparslan captured the castle Ani. And he had long moustache and long hair and fully muscle.
 
And as I know the Kıpçak (you know them Kipchak because you can't speak Ç letter why I don't understand) Turks are the most beautiful Turk tribe they were tall and blond and colored eyes, I love very very very much!!!! :D
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 04:13
About kipchak Turks being blond and colored eyes (Nordic appearance) I don't know if it is true or not, but why do you think having Nordic appearance makes them the most beautiful ones? I personally like the Uzbek appearance and in second place the Azari appearance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:25

Due to the  rare blonde population  in Turkey, we turks favor blonde girls. According to my knowledge the oghuz turks appearence were darker and they did not have any mongoloid look(During their migration to anatolia).  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:26
Originally posted by feiying feiying wrote:

There is one story from Hoja Effendi stories.  He mentioned that he gave a mirror to the sultan one day and he looked himself in the mirror and cried because he looked 'savage and ugly.'  I interpret this to mean that the rulers looked racially different from the subject people.  The sultan probably looked more Mongoloid and realized he looked different from the subjects around him.
This story could be interpretted in many ways I think
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 13:01
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

About kipchak Turks being blond and colored eyes (Nordic appearance) I don't know if it is true or not, but why do you think having Nordic appearance makes them the most beautiful ones? I personally like the Uzbek appearance and in second place the Azari appearance.


This following nationalities today are descendants (or partial descendants) of Kipchaks:
- Crimean Tatars
- Nogai Tatars
- Volga Tatars
- Bashkirs
- Kazakhs
- Kygyz

they display a wide range of physical types, yet mostly dark-hair and brown eyed.
Therefore I very much doubt that "All Kipchaks were nordic".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 14:54
Quote Suren
About kipchak Turks being blond and colored eyes (Nordic appearance) I don't know if it is true or not, but why do you think having Nordic appearance makes them the most beautiful ones? I personally like the Uzbek appearance and in second place the Azari appearance.


In history Turks were considered beautiful for having white, round faces and black hair known as "ay yuzlu".

The blonde look being popular has elements with history and due to modern American Hollywood media were blonde = beautiful.

Due to Blonde hair being more rare, it had appeal, there are songs in folklore about blonde haired blue eye girls. However, there are also folklore songs about black haired dark eyed girls, brown eyed girls, Turkmen girls, Cherkez girls practically every type of girl LOL

Regarding Oghuz Turks look when entering Anatolia this is can also be confusing.

The first Oghuz Turk tribes which entered had previously lived in the Iran/Azerbaijan region for a few generations first, so they mixed with the local population and settled there first.

The next waves came direct from Central Asia during the Mongol expansion however, also some more tribes from Iran were displaced aswell in addition to Iranic tribes who probobly came along aswell.

The next waves were after Amir Timurs expansion.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:06
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



This following nationalities today are descendants (or partial descendants) of Kipchaks:

- Kygyz



the Kyrgyz not but the Qaraqalpaq.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:28
Temujin, Kirgiz is part of the Kipchak branch of Turkic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:32
no, they speak a related language but they are not otherwise related. i mean Khyrgyz are older than the Qypchaq and they retained their identity throughout.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:20
Quote Temujin
no, they speak a related language but they are not otherwise related. i mean Khyrgyz are older than the Qypchaq and they retained their identity throughout.


Kirgiz have a Kipchak element, Kipchak tribes and speak Kipchak branch of Turkic, however, the historic Kirgiz have a very old recorded history especially in Chinese sources. The Chinese described them as having red hair and coloured eyes, the Tamgas of these ancient Kirgiz tribes and existing tribes today are identical. Also there was an influx of "Yenisey Kirgiz" later in history who were part of the "Tiele" (Dingling/Turkic speakers). Later in history nomadic Kipchaks dominated the region, as did various other Turkic peoples.

They are all inter-realted and have mixed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:24
so what are those kipchak tribes? and just because they are part of the linguistic branch doesn't mean they are related, those names are artificial, like Chaghatay branch of turkic languages doesn't mean that Uzbeks and Uyghurs are Mongols, that just means their languages have developed their present form in this political entity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:43
While I was in Istanbul I noticed that the vast majority of people in advertisement on billboards or even on TV commercial were fair skinned. I noticed this whenever I walked to the school I taught at, about three miles.   Are fair skinned people by the media considered more beautiful? I do not recall seeing any Kurds in these adds but it has been a few years.

This is a good question though and I wonder if Byzantine sources give any indication of this?

I should ask Byzantine Emp

I do not recall any indication of racial difference in "The Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor" by Spero Vyronis. Sadly, after the Byzantines lost the Battle of Manzikert the Turkic tribes began their migration into Anatolia or invasion- depends on whose side one's ancestors were on at the time.
I will pm this to Byz and see what he thinks.

Edited by eaglecap - 11-Mar-2009 at 18:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:22
Quote Temujin
so what are those kipchak tribes? and just because they are part of the linguistic branch doesn't mean they are related, those names are artificial, like Chaghatay branch of turkic languages doesn't mean that Uzbeks and Uyghurs are Mongols, that just means their languages have developed their present form in this political entity.


Kipchaks got everywhere, in part due to joining the Mongol hordes, the Mongols ruled Kirgizistan as a vassal state for a long period but this de-facto means a Kipchak presence.
There is a Kipchak tribe in Kirgizistan but most tribes arn't Kipchak, tribal loyalties can be very confusiing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:29
so i take it that the Kyrgyz themselves don't actually have any Qypchaq tribes but they just happen to live within Kyrgyz territory. anyways, what calvo said is:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

his following nationalities today are descendants (or partial descendants) of Kipchaks:


as i demonstarted above, Kyrgyz were around much earlier than any Qypchaq, so what he said is factually wrong. obviously, Kyrgyz have no relation to Qypchaqs whatsoever except that they are grouped in the same linguistic branch of turkic, which just happens to be called Qpchaq but that doesn't mean it IS Qypchaq.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:22
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

While I was in Istanbul I noticed that the vast majority of people in advertisement on billboards or even on TV commercial were fair skinned. I noticed this whenever I walked to the school I taught at, about three miles.   Are fair skinned people by the media considered more beautiful? I do not recall seeing any Kurds in these adds but it has been a few years.

This is a good question though and I wonder if Byzantine sources give any indication of this?

I should ask Byzantine Emp

I do not recall any indication of racial difference in "The Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor" by Spero Vyronis. Sadly, after the Byzantines lost the Battle of Manzikert the Turkic tribes began their migration into Anatolia or invasion- depends on whose side one's ancestors were on at the time.
I will pm this to Byz and see what he thinks.
 
I must confess that I am pretty much ignorant of the science and genealogy of Turkish tribes.  All I can say is that, unfortunately, since most Byzantine writers were extremely conservative and classicizing in style, they referred to Turks as "Persians" in general. 
 
If anything matter to the Byzantines, even more so than race, was religion.  Of course, during the later period there were groups of Turkish soldiers, both Muslim and converted Orthodox, who served in the Byzantine army.  Michael VIII Palaiologos was especially fond of them and used them in his personal bodyguard.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 11-Mar-2009 at 20:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MythTR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 16:49
I don't understand why the topic was changed!
 
Our topic was Oğuz apperance. But I saw, they said nordic, they said Persians, They said kurds...
 
I said that the blonde word for Kipçak Turks. (yes KIPÇAK "Ç" no kipchak ) for example the name totneham but we should call it Totnım it is like this.
 
Kıpçak Turks (tribe) are the most beautiful appearence in the other Turkish tribes.
 
Thank You!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 19:25
Originally posted by MythTR MythTR wrote:

I don't understand why the topic was changed!
 

Our topic was Oğuz apperance. But I saw, they said nordic, they said Persians, They said kurds...

 

I said that the blonde word for Kipçak Turks. (yes KIPÇAK "Ç" no kipchak ) for example the name totneham but we should call it Totnım it is like this.

 

Kıpçak Turks (tribe) are the most beautiful appearence in the other Turkish tribes.

 

Thank You!



Myth TR I have been to your great country and the Byzantines or Rum called the Turkic tribes Persians. But you live there and since the Oguz first appeared the Ottoman Empire had brought in many ethnic groups. I saw some Turkish people who looked Caucasian but I could see their Asiatic features. They could be descendants of the original Oguz, who knows.

I tend to believe as these various Turkic tribes migrated west they came in contact with different ethnic groups such as Semitic and Indo European peoples. I tend to believe that by the time of 1071- many were already mixed with other racial stock.   The original Turkic tribes were Asiatic though. You can see this in the former (Turkic) regions of the former USSR
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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