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Post Options Post Options   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nukes
    Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 23:00
I answered your question, but I did not bring it up. If you can recall, I was the one that warned about this in the first place. Ok, whoever started... it ends here. No more, please.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 01:44
Why not? If religion plays a part it people's beliefs about nukes, it should be a relevant part of the discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 16:14
Originally posted by Anton

So, basically, following your logic,  bombing of London wasn't a crime?
 
Which one?  The world war bombings or the recent ones?
 
Originally posted by Anton

Or Pearl Harbour
 
 
No, that was a brilliant military operation that ran into some execution problems, but still smart nonetheless.
 
Originally posted by Anton

Bataan Death March?
 
That's a crime of course, it was the murder of people who had already surrendered, which the Japanese hadn't at that point.
 
Originally posted by Anton

Or attack of some buildings in NY not so recently? Hm...
 
I don't know what I'd call that.  It was a very successful operation and example of assymetrical warfare, at least in a tactical sense.  In a strategic sense, it was a disaster as it lead to the loss of Afghanistan as a base for Al Qaeda operations.  I don't really look at it as a crime, but an attack in an unconventional war which must be answered by retaliation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 18:47
Originally posted by Genghis

 
That's a crime of course, it was the murder of people who had already surrendered, which the Japanese hadn't at that point.
 
Why's that? You said yourself that enemy civilians are still enemies.
 
 
Originally posted by Genghis

 
I don't know what I'd call that.  It was a very successful operation and example of assymetrical warfare, at least in a tactical sense.  In a strategic sense, it was a disaster as it lead to the loss of Afghanistan as a base for Al Qaeda operations.  I don't really look at it as a crime, but an attack in an unconventional war which must be answered by retaliation.
That's a new point of view for me... How many Americans think like you?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 18:49
Which one?  The world war bombings or the recent ones?
I mean WWII bobmbings but tell me about both.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 21:54
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Genghis

 
That's a crime of course, it was the murder of people who had already surrendered, which the Japanese hadn't at that point.
 
Why's that? You said yourself that enemy civilians are still enemies.
 
Japan had still not surrendered at the time the bombs were dropped, they were still at war with us, justifying the full use of our entire arsenal on whatever targets we saw fit to force their surrender. 
 
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Genghis

 
I don't know what I'd call that.  It was a very successful operation and example of assymetrical warfare, at least in a tactical sense.  In a strategic sense, it was a disaster as it lead to the loss of Afghanistan as a base for Al Qaeda operations.  I don't really look at it as a crime, but an attack in an unconventional war which must be answered by retaliation.
That's a new point of view for me... How many Americans think like you?
 
Probably not too many, but most Americans probably haven't dissected the nature of the 911 attacks.  Most of us just want vengeance, and whatver we call 911 doesn't affect that.


Edited by Genghis - 25-Feb-2007 at 21:58
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 21:57
Originally posted by Anton

Which one?  The world war bombings or the recent ones?
I mean WWII bobmbings but tell me about both.
 
The bombings of world war II would fall under the same category as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that of attacks on the enemy in war.  The recent terrorist bombings would fit into the same category as 911, an attack (be it unconventional or criminal or whatever other adjective, with which we could describe it) that should simply be avenged.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 00:48
As for the so called crimes of Dresden, Berlin and the rest, well lets see
 
1) Its war. And anything that shatters enemy morale or will to resist is a perfectly legitamate action.
2)In a total war could someone tell me what is the difference between the man shooting and the man (or woman) making the gun? For a soldier none at all.
 
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 06:21
Originally posted by Genghis

  The recent terrorist bombings would fit into the same category as 911, an attack (be it unconventional or criminal or whatever other adjective, with which we could describe it) that should simply be avenged.
 
Nice ligitimization of terrorism. And how are you going to avenge? To kill equall amount of civilians in some countries? Or to be sure, not equal but double or triple amount?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 15:30
I had hunting down and killing the perpetrators in mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 19:46
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Genghis

  The recent terrorist bombings would fit into the same category as 911, an attack (be it unconventional or criminal or whatever other adjective, with which we could describe it) that should simply be avenged.
 
Nice ligitimization of terrorism. And how are you going to avenge? To kill equall amount of civilians in some countries? Or to be sure, not equal but double or triple amount?
 
History proved that revenge never ever stopped violence. NEVER!
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 23:27
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Genghis

  The recent terrorist bombings would fit into the same category as 911, an attack (be it unconventional or criminal or whatever other adjective, with which we could describe it) that should simply be avenged.
 
Nice ligitimization of terrorism. And how are you going to avenge? To kill equall amount of civilians in some countries? Or to be sure, not equal but double or triple amount?
 
History proved that revenge never ever stopped violence. NEVER!


Well, people are always going to want revenge, and will always commit revenge. Just look at history...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hermeslyre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 16:43
Nescessary Crime. We won the the war, Not because of the bomb but because of japans fear of Russia joining the war effort, though the bomb was  helpful.. We were and still are allowed to justify our actions because we were the victor. If it had been the other way all of japan would call our actions a crime and consider theres nothing but necessary.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Voltigeur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 15:07
America was sick of war by year 5, and wasn't about to give up another year and 100,000 gold stars.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Giordano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:10
To kill civilians is a crime and it doesn't matter who did it.If your enemy killed civilians this doesn't give right of to kill civilians.According to US citizens point of view ,this is necessity,i wonder that if Japanese or german could use the atomic bomb in an american city,can this change you opinion?May be it became a crime for your point of view.
Tokyo,Dresden,London,Hiroshima,Nagasaki etc. all of crimes.
And for US to use nuke is necessity because decreasing US lost,right,but for US,not an objective point of view.


Edited by Giordano - 28-Mar-2007 at 09:14
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Post Options Post Options   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 00:04
Crime.  The US goverment knew the Japanise leadership was going to surrender when Russia declared war.  They knew it and still dropped the bombs.  If they had wanted to avoid casuaties they should have waited until Japan surrendered.  Hirosima and Nagasaki were more about showing the USSR the power of the bomb than stopping Japan. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zaitsev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 02:00
The United States' decision had nothing to do with ending the war. The decision to use the nuclear arsenal against civilians was for the dual purposes of testing the power of nuclear devices for future reference, and to send a message to America's rivals across the globe, especially the USSR.

Regarding the morality of the incident, it is inexcusable. To employ weaponry of any kind directly targeted against civilian populations is reprehensible and shows a complete moral bankruptcy.
Straw Man - a weak or sham argument
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 02:18
Simplistic, half thought-out BS from Dick and Jane's Book of the Cold War.
 
Warfare has been directed at civilians at least since the Assyrians incinerated whole populations to make a point.  The substance of the last two posts are not only horrendously misinformed, they are "complete intellectual bankruptcy." 
 
In 1945 the US had no rivals across the globe.  The understanding at Yalta was that the USSR would have hegemony in north Asia - just like in east Europe, because no one could do anything about it.  The Russians were not going to walk across the sea to Japan, through the US navy.  The best information is that the Russians knew about the bomb beforehand anyway. 
 
The Japanese Imperial authority did not direct surrender until AFTER the second device had been detonated.  The tactic worked; the war ended.
 
Get off your soap boxes and analyze the history - don't try to moralize it.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 10-May-2009 at 02:20
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Post Options Post Options   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 11:25

I have analyzed the history at the end of WW2, and I was not on a soapbox.  But it is time that the allies except that it was not only the Germans who carried out war crimes.  The bombings of Dresden etc were a war crime.  As was the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan.  The US goverment knew that Japan would surrender when Russia entered the war.  The dropping of the nukes was more about showing the USSR the power of the weapon than stopping the war.  During WW2 the US always viewed Russia as a neccesary evil.  As long as they were fighting the Germans they were allies.  But they knew that after WW2 it would be Russia who was their main competator in world power.   As for the Russians knowing of the bomb there is a big difference in being told and seeing the power of a weapon.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 13:50
Warwolf,
 
Sorry if I came on strong there, but I think you have some misconceptions of the history of the end of WW II.
 
As far as Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima (Rotterdam, Coventry, Warsaw, Nanking, etc., etc., etc.), war is not a Sunday school lesson, nor is it a videogame.  Terror tactics have been used forever as force multipliers or as political statements.  Their criminality is not relevant.
 
Sometimes that works; sometimes it doesn't.  At Hiroshima/Nagasaki it worked.  In 1945 that was more important.
 
 
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