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    Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 17:05
Little boy ( Hiroshima ) and Fat man ( Nagasaki ) - NecessityThumbs%20Up or crimeThumbs%20Down?
How do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 18:39
Crime. Even if it was necessary, mass murder is mass murder. Killing most of the citizens and leaving the survivors to die a slow death by radiation is crime. Mass destruction for sake of others does not make it right, in terms of morality.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 19:12
depends on the viewpoint of how much morality one wishes to ascribe to modern warfare and it's neverendings means of waging it....vs. the period in history where very little morale concern was exhibited to wit just prior to the end of the 19th century and upon the completion of WW1 with it's horrific casualtie rates, altho a case may be made for earlier dating as far back as 1864....ala the orginal Hague treaty.  http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5KZGE6
 
The answer to the question above deals with many factors, to include ongoing war crimes of the period, the numbers of projected losses in an invasion, death of non-combatants in the potential millions etc.
 
In the end those who believe war to be a form of murder in any of it's facets and or types will never be convinced of the rightness of anything but their position....so it's a moot issue.
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 22-Feb-2007 at 19:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 20:41
Necessity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 23:05
Necessity. Dead people are dead people, whether they did from a nuke or from a conventional bomb. A nuke is a VERY large explosive device. Nothing else. I don't see how Hiroshima differs from Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Kobe, London, Shanghai and a dozen other cities in that respect.
 
It ended the war.
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kasper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 00:58
A crime; and Sparten, who says the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden wasn't a crime? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:01
Depends how you look at it I suppose; a necessary crime?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 11:37
Originally posted by kasper kasper wrote:

A crime; and Sparten, who says the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden wasn't a crime? 


I do. World War II was a total war, everything was a target. The point of the mass bombings was to cripple the Axis morale and production capabilities, and it succeeded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 12:31
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Originally posted by kasper kasper wrote:

A crime; and Sparten, who says the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden wasn't a crime? 


I do. World War II was a total war, everything was a target. The point of the mass bombings was to cripple the Axis morale and production capabilities, and it succeeded.
 

Total war or not, attacking defenseless is a crime by definition. Criminals can try to justify his action by saying it was for greater good... but so what? You killed people that never attacked you before. Look at War in Iraq. You barge into other country for the crime that is never proven, and then try to justify your actions... I remember the quote from the Kingdom of Heaven...

 

You see, none of us chose our end really. A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convinient at the time. This will not suffice. Remember that.

 
- King Baldwin IV, from the Kingdom of Heaven
 

Some may say claim that it was a dirty job, but someone had to do it. That may be so, but whoever did the job still acted the crime. Yes, it was necessary for the Americans to save more American soldiers' lives, but crime nevertheless..

 



Edited by pekau - 23-Feb-2007 at 12:36
     
   
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Necessity, enemy civilians are still the enemy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 15:28
First point of view,the Japanese character:we must take under consideration somebody who was the leading actor in his own drama.The Japanese.The Japanese would never surrender to the Americans so easily and without a bloody fight.That's why they were even training civilians to learn how to hold swords ,guns and how to fight with them.If the Americans never threw that bomb,then it would ,be most likely, a massacre of almost the same climax.So,by throwing the bombs ,the Japanese surrendered,without the massacre and the destruction of a possible American invasion in the Japanese islands.

From this point of view:nessecity.

Second point of view,the information of the American goverment:Before the attack with the bombs,the Japanese goverment had already taken under heavy consideration the choice of surrender.A few months before,in 18th June 1945,the Supreme Military council of Japan took for the first time under consideration the case of surrender.There was already the imperial intention for negotiations of peace through the USSR.The Americans,already by the 12 July 1945-date when Japan turned diplomatically to the USSR,had a strong evidence of a Japanese intention for capitulation .Moreover, they had already broken the Japanese communication codes,thus being aware of the Japanese diplomatic and military movements,through the ULTRA network and the MAGIC reports.

From this point of view:the American goverment knew that their Japanese counterparts wanted peace.Yet,they through the bombs.Crime.

Third point of view,military status quo of Japan:A landing of the American forces to the Japanese islands,and especially that of Kiusu (if i spell it right) could end up to be a disaster.The Japanese goverment had gathered there thousands of men and women,more specifically 14 infantry divisions,7 small indepedent brigades,3 tank brigades etc.There were also 12.725 army and navy aircrafts,most of which would be used for kamikaze attacks.The Imperial Navy had 2 cruisers ,23 destroyers which could be used in static positions as heavy land and AA artillery ,45 submarines,115 "koryu" submarines,300 "Kairyu" submarines,120 "Kaiten" manned torpades which could be used in kamikaze attacks,plus the 4.000 "Shin-yo" and "Maru-ni" special attack crafts,also for kamikaze attacks.In a few words,the Americans could have heavy losses in a possible landing,thus being not succesfull.

From this point of view:A nessecity.

Four point of view,the  intentions of the American goverment:The fact that there were intentions of creating a third nuclear bomb,showed that the Americans did not care about civilians.In fact,it's  intentions was to devastate Japan with the worst attack,thus giving a quick end.A quick end would ensure that Japan would stay in the American sphere of influence,thus diminishing the danger of an important Soviet influence in the Far East.The target from the beginning was the Japanese people,in order to wear down the Japanese fighting spirit and to de-legitimize the Japanese goverment to the eyes of the common Japanese civilians,thus eliminating those goverment members who would ask more capitulation conditions.

From this point of view:A bloody crime.

Fifth point of view,the bomb itself:We must admit ,that during that years,nobody really knew the exact consquenses of a nuclear bomb in  land ,air and human body,in the shorterm and in the longterm.So,a nuclear bomb would be ,in the eyes of the American military and political leadership,nothing more than a cheaper and quicker solution of strategic bombing,a strong bomb.The Japanese ace Saburo Sakai ,said in one of his interviews ,that he would also do the same thing if was asked to throw a nuclear bomb,because ,simply,nobody really knew what a terrible weapon it was.

From this point:A crime of ignorance.









Edited by Spartakus - 23-Feb-2007 at 15:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 15:50
Spartakus has a good point.
 
From my point of view, however... I do not believe that human beings have the right to take someone else's life... no matter what he/she did. God created all human beings for a reason, and he will decide the justice and their fate... but not by our own judgement. Of course, that's just my belief. You want to argue about religion? Go to intellect forum, not here. I tried to debate about science religion debate... but I gave up. It's a sticky topic that I dare not to get involved unless it's necessary...
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 16:03
You have right,nobody has the right to take the life of sb else.There are many things who i,as a human being,fear in life.The most important things i fear is God's wrath ,and generally the wrath of the supernatural, as well as human arrogance and ignorance. But ,by studying history,i discovered that there are many factors,parametres and different points of view about one issue,thus making it more complex and making me more carefull when dealing with it.

In the bottom line,though,i agree.War is a stupidity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 16:12
Nonesense, the Christian god gave you free will, so by that reasoning you are free to do want you want, even kill! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 16:15
Well, he gave me free will in dealing with myself,not with others.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 16:40
ah yes in dealing with yourself, most assurdely and yet that too encompasses, in the real world, dealing with others...it may be appreciated differently and probably should be in the spiritual...but alas as you yourself just pointed out, history shows different.
 
Is war stupid? absolutely.
 
Are it's tools and mechanisms horiffic and illogical to a platonic state of spirtiual bliss? most definitely.
 
 
But all that, merely begs the historical  social and cultural developement of the creature known as man; and until something supernatural and or ultra scientifcaly advanced from beyond this planet comes along and deals with it... in effect remakes the psychological causes that help promolugate it, it shall remain nontheless the norm.
 
Hence you better prepared to wage it or fall victim to those who will and think nothing is amiss when they kill you. Pacificsm and associated spiritual/religious philosophies are delightful in theory, atrociously immaterial in historical reality.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 12:35

Pacificsm and associated spiritual/religious philosophies are delightful in theory, atrociously immaterial in historical reality.

This is purely subjective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 20:08
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

I do. World War II was a total war, everything was a target. The point of the mass bombings was to cripple the Axis morale and production capabilities, and it succeeded.
 
Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Necessity, enemy civilians are still the enemy.
 
 
So, basically, following your logic,  bombing of London wasn't a crime? Or Pearl Harbour and Bataan Death March? Or attack of some buildings in NY not so recently? Hm...


Edited by Anton - 24-Feb-2007 at 20:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 21:06
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Nonesense, the Christian god gave you free will, so by that reasoning you are free to do want you want, even kill! 
 
No, that's not the case. God gave us free will, but that was when Adam and Eve did not know how to sin... so free will should mean that we can do anything we want to praise and build the relationship with God... but He most definitely did not gave us the freedom to sin... then Satan should not be viewed as the evil darlord or something...
 
You want to question religion? Go to intellectual discussion. Don't do it here...
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 22:40
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Nonesense, the Christian god gave you free will, so by that reasoning you are free to do want you want, even kill! 
 
No, that's not the case. God gave us free will, but that was when Adam and Eve did not know how to sin... so free will should mean that we can do anything we want to praise and build the relationship with God... but He most definitely did not gave us the freedom to sin... then Satan should not be viewed as the evil darlord or something...
 
You want to question religion? Go to intellectual discussion. Don't do it here...


You brought up God, I was just pointing out that he gave free will, and people can do as they please.
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