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Forum LockedNorthern Sudan: Arabized Nubians or Migrant Arabs?

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jfsndvs View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 03:49
I keep hearing that the Darfur situation is between Arabs and Africans.

Does anyone know the actual identity of Northern Sudanese?  Are they Arabized Nubians and other African groups or are they descendants from migrants from Arabia?

Here's what I think is true:

1. The Christian Nubian Kingdom of Makuria fought off the Arabs for 6 centuries until they adopted Islam from the 14th century on.

2. The 19th century empire builder Muhammad Ahmad (the Mahdi) was Nubian.

So, was there a large migration of Arabs into the Sudan? 

If so, are the Nubians and other northern Sudanese Africans second class citizens? If not, how do the northern Sudanse ethnic groups view themselves (Arab, ethnic identity, or both)?

I never understood why Somalia declared itself an Arab state? Can someone explain the meaning of Arab? 

 
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 04:04
North Sudanese and southern Egyptians are both Arab and Nubian. Their language is considered a dialect of Arabic and their ethnicity Nubian.

In Darfur either there are no Arabs, or everyone is Arab, depending on how you decide to define Arab both are true, but it is ludicrous to refer to part of the population as Arab, and the other African. Most of the settled people in Darfur are ethnically Fur.
Quote Can someone explain the meaning of Arab?

Not without a major essay I think. Outside the peninsular, 'Arab' is a politic-linguistic-religious identity. It has very little to do with ancestry. Before this century 'Turk' used to be the same. Any muslim in Eastern Europe was a 'Turk', and any muslim in eastern Africa was an 'Arab', the people who adopted this identity did it centuries before any modern notions of ethno-nationalism (racism in the true meaning of the word)

Incidentally though, Somalia and Yemen are very close in numerous ways. Yemani are half Somali and vice versa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 06:51

Hello to you all

The answer to the question isn't that easy. Nubians are very distinct from Arabs, Nubians are black, Arabs consider themselves white, both peoples don't mix at all and no marriages are recorded except if an Arab man marries a Nubian woman. Arabs tend to kill women who do the opposite (because of racism). These differences hold until now. Plus Arabs are nomads while Nubians are sedentry. Most Arabs are recent arrivals some have been in Sudan for less than 150 years.

In Sudan Arabs are the members of any of the several great Arab tribes that live there. If I am not mistaken there is some 20% of Sudans population who belong to these tribes. Arab tribes give tribal status only to those who have a confirmed descendence from Arab stock, that is both parents. If one has a black mother, like the Janjaweeds, they are not considered Arab but are allowed to have Arab tribal names.
 
Bedouin tribes are among the most puritanical people in the world (many instances pure Nazi style racism). They keep their geneology and have a very very narrow definition of who is and who is not an Arab. This is why we can give a more precise estimate about how many Arabs are in a certain country
 
Somalia is not Arab. There is nothing to link it with Yemen or any other Arab country or even Arab tribes. Arab tribes never settled in Somalia but some somali clans did settle in certain parts of the cost of Arabia, around the City of Jizan in Saudi Arabia. Yemen does have many links with Eritria and Ethiopia however both genetically and linguistically. Why did it join the Arab league? I don't know.
 
Finally, Arab has two meanings that actually overlap each other. It can be cultural as Omar said and it can be ethnic. Go to Algeria or Morocco and ask about the difference between Arab and Berber and they will tell you despite that the majority are Berber.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfsndvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 07:50
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

In Sudan Arabs are the members of any of the several great Arab tribes that live there. If I am not mistaken there is some 20% of Sudans population who belong to these tribes. Arab tribes give tribal status only to those who have a confirmed descendence from Arab stock, that is both parents. If one has a black mother, like the Janjaweeds, they are not considered Arab but are allowed to have Arab tribal names.
 
Bedouin tribes are among the most puritanical people in the world (many instances pure Nazi style racism). They keep their geneology and have a very very narrow definition of who is and who is not an Arab.


Damn... I didn't know it was like that.  That's very interesting stuff... I assume it's a similar situation in Mauritania.

So, do they have any political power in Sudan?  20% sounds like a pretty large minority considering the many ethnic groups in the country. 

I'm much more interesting in these dynamics now that you told me this.  Do you know of any good books or articles these issues?  I'd be interested in anything on Arabs in Africa: their history, cultural influences, social/political interactions with natives, current position within the different countries, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 21:25
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


In Sudan Arabs are the members of any of the several great Arab tribes that live there. If I am not mistaken there is some 20% of Sudans population who belong to these tribes. Arab tribes give tribal status only to those who have a confirmed descendence from Arab stock, that is both parents. If one has a black mother, like the Janjaweeds, they are not considered Arab but are allowed to have Arab tribal names.


Yes but most Sudanese whether Northern Or Southern do not have Arab descendancy at all,they just have adapted the Arab indentity due to the Language and Religion just as the Fulani in iN Nigeria have.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Somalia is not Arab. There is nothing to link it with Yemen or any other Arab country or even Arab tribes. Arab tribes never settled in Somalia but some somali clans did settle in certain parts of the cost of Arabia, around the City of Jizan in Saudi Arabia.


Actually Somali has been part of the Sabean empire at one point ,I do believe the Axum Empire  has conquered a part of Arabia Happy at one point too, but that more releates to Yemen,but they should share some lineage at some point in time .Not to mention their language is Afro Asiatic.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

North Sudanese and southern Egyptians are both Arab and Nubian. Their language is considered a dialect of Arabic and their ethnicity Nubian.


They are very few black Egyptians in Southern Egypt today.But most Northen Sudanese are Negroid.What people don't understand is that the Kush Empire lasted for 3 Millenia if not longer. Now first it is widely accepted that Egypt took control of Kush in 1520 bc so we know there is already an established kingdom,even before Kush from before there was a kingdom called Kerma. Any how despite the records of Egypt conquering Kush in the 1500 bc people say its established 1070,now the supposed fall of Kush is in 350 ad,historians say it ceased in 350 AD because the lack of monuments and construction building but never actually hearing of an Kandake or Alara(Gore) being deposed. In fact we here of the Axum King presding over Kush as an overlord but it is said this was already in place befroe 350 ad.

Now historains say that the Gods of Meroe were still prominet in the NUBIA REGION. When Theodora arrived in 5th century to spread christianity the 3 Kush Kingdoms Nobatia,Maukaria,and Alodia adopted the faith.The Meriotic culture was still prominent because the still spoke the Meriotic language and script,the church even blessed the kingdoms monarachs which kept sacred the Matrenial lineage of the Royal lines.The Maukaria Kingdom which once held the city Meroe was reluctant to accept the Christianity but they eventually adopted Chirstianity in another form called the Melechite christianity.Its ironic that these kingdoms ran parallel to  Ancient Nubia because these 3 regions both competed for power.

Now in the 6th century  ad the once mighty military kingdom of Nobotae were invaded by arab muslims. They signed a treaty known as the baqt in which muslim mauraders could use the Nothern part of Sudan for trade and the south remianed independent.However during this time the northern population became islamized.Alot of christians moved southward in the 16th century and eventually made a defense called shakydoms. They eventually collapsed in the 18thcentury ad by the Turks.

But we know that the christian kingdoms were alligned to the Axumites due to the same religious faith,the Ethiopian Empire once presided over eastern Sudan at one point and time.But however we could say that Kush lasted a very longtime.Just as Rome adopted christianity in 380 ad. Kush threw away its pantheon of Nilothic Gods.


Edited by AksumVanguard - 23-Feb-2009 at 01:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amir100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 18:48
Originally posted by jfsndvs jfsndvs wrote:

I keep hearing that the Darfur situation is between Arabs and Africans. Does anyone know the actual identity of Northern Sudanese?  Are they Arabized Nubians and other African groups or are they descendants from migrants from Arabia?Here's what I think is true:1. The Christian Nubian Kingdom of Makuria fought off the Arabs for 6 centuries until they adopted Islam from the 14th century on.2. The 19th century empire builder Muhammad Ahmad (the Mahdi) was Nubian.So, was there a large migration of Arabs into the Sudan?  If so, are the Nubians and other northern Sudanese Africans second class citizens? If not, how do the northern Sudanse ethnic groups view themselves (Arab, ethnic identity, or both)? I never understood why Somalia declared itself an Arab state? Can someone explain the meaning of Arab?   


ethnicity is a trickly thing but approaching this subject from a historical point of view might shed some light on the issue.

we know that the Nubian kingdoms in upper egypt were able to stop the military expansion of the Ummayad caliphate and were able to establish treaties that government the interaction between Egypt and Sudan for much of the middle ages. islam was able to spread as alway in subsaharan africa through trade and intermarriage between the locals and arab merchant, clerics.

by the last 1500 century the old nubian kingdoms were in decline and than overran by the Funj a people from southern Sudan who converted to islam and established a sultanate at Sennar.

so modern day northern Sudaness are a blend of Nubian, Nilotic groups from southern sudan and some Arab elements. historical there was a time when the govern of egypt send arab bedounins west toward the Meghrab and possible south toward the sudan. these arab nomads might be the descantant of the Jaali and the Juhayna the large arab-speaking groups in modern sudan but not arab tribes. but amoung the arab speak you find greater diversity, nubians, Beja, Baggara which are actually from west africa and migrated east amoung other groups so ethnicity is very complicated in sudan. in sudan ethnicity is often cultural and linguistic.

as for the Darfur situation, the Fur people of Darfur are actually surround by arabic-quasi arab nomads in north, norwest and East it only in the southwest along Chad southern border that you find African populations.

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