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Forum LockedNorman’s ethnic cleansing

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 13:49
I agree Gascon is really apart in the Occitan family, but how can you deny the French and Occitan have no relations? Both were born in the same country and both are Gallo-Romance language.

If France had conquered Italy or Spain, their languages would be considered as dialects and if the opposite happened (Spain or Italy conquering France) our language would be considered dialect too. That's because the Romance languages are all related to each others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 16:44
I've been checking and all what I've found says that Gascon is Occitanian (but see below!) and that Occitanian is Ibero-Romance (with Iberian tongues) and not Gallo-Romance (with Oil and Nord-Italian tongues). See: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=gsc.

On Gascon being Occitanian or not, I've found the following:

A practical excecise:
Comparison between Provenzal, Auvergnois and Gascon (the parabole of the prodigal son) (http://www.lexilogos.com/francais_enfant_prodigue.htm):

Provençal (Occitanian):
Et soun fieou li diguet : Moun païré
ai peccat contro lou ciel et contro de vous,
noun siou pas digné d'estre appelat vouestre fieou.
Alors, lou péro diguet à seis domestiquos :
Adduses sa premiero raoubo,
et vestisses lou ;
mettes-li une bague oou det
et de souliers eis peds.
Adusés lou vedeou gras et tuas lou,
mangens e faguem boumbanço.

Auvergnat (Occitanian):
Et soun fieou li diguet : Moun païré
ai peccat contro lou ciel et contro de vous,
noun siou pas digné d'estre appelat vouestre fieou.
Alors, lou péro diguet à seis domestiquos :
Adduses sa premiero raoubo,
et vestisses lou ;
mettes-li une bague oou det
et de souliers eis peds.
Adusés lou vedeou gras et tuas lou,
mangens e faguem boumbanço.

Gascon (Occitanian???):
E soun hil qu'eou digouc : Moun pay,
qu'ey peccat cost'oou ceo é daouant bous :
nou souy pas mes digne deou noum de boste hil.
Lou pay que digouc a sous baylets :
Biste, biste, pourtat sa pruméro raoubo
é boutats l'oc ;
boutats lou la bago aou dit,
é caoussats lou.
Amiats lou bedet gras, é tuats lou :
minjen é hascan uo gran' hesto.

While Provençal and Auvergnat are identical (and very simmilar to what I know of Catalonian), Gascon is very different.

One explanation, that of strong Basque influence specially in pronunciation, can be found here: http://membres.lycos.fr/simorre/oc/gascon.html. This is a very important trait that Gascon, Ancient Aragonese and Castilian (Spanish) share. Yet, unlike Castilian, that is more hybrid, Gascon is almost exclussively a Romance spoken solely by (former) Basques.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 06:54

 It's Occitan not Occitanian please. Normally I'm not pedantic but seeing the land of my people with it's name butchered is rather unpleasant.

Gascon IS in the Occitan family, but it's apart inside it and if you consider it as Occitan then it makes sense to put Catalan in because Gascon with its Basque influence is apart.

 

As Occitan being Gallo-Romance, I'm sorry for the Catalan who wish to see their country disunited of Spain and join a great Catalan/Occitan union (like I've seen on some websites) but Occitan is a Gallo Romance language far more than it is Ibero-Romance, don't forget the Gauls settled in Northern Italy (Gallia Cistalpina) and in Spain (Celtiberians). So if you dig in linguistic roots it's more the neightbouring languages (Catalan and Piedmontese) that could be associated to the Gallo-Romance group than the opposite (Occitan as Ibero or Italo - Romance).

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Gallo-Romance_examples.html

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/g/ga/gallo-rom ance_languages1.htm

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gallo_Romance-langu ages

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 12:07
Well, the link I provided was very authoitative but yours (or rather others I've found following it) seem to be authoritative as well. Personally I think that those clasifications may be a little arbitrary, after all the evolutionary path is just: Latin -> Vulgar Latin ->  Medieval Romances -> Modern Romanic tongues, there was never an intermediate Gallo-Roman or Ibero-Roman intermediate dialect from which these languages sprung, at least not one that covered all the area that modern classifications do, so no wonder there are discrepancies regarding wether Catalano-Occitan is one or the other.

I think that they should classify them in the following groups (I will ignore Romances east of the Alps, specially because I don't know much about them):
  • Western Iberian: Galaico-Portugese, Asturian, Ancient Leonese, Mozarabic and...
    • Castilian (Spanish), separated due to Basque influx
  • Ibero-Provenzal: Occitan, Catalan and...
    • Gascon, separated due to Basque influx
    • Aragonese (I doubt seriously that Upper Aragonese can be classified with Western Iberian languages), also with Basque influx (but unrelated to Gascon as far as I know). Maybe it should be apart?
  • Franco-Romanic: Oil languages
Many (if not most) Catalans want their country separated and have good reasons for it: basically lack of federalism, excessive centralism of Spain and France (there are also Catalans in France), lack of union of their country and, finally, that they have waged at least a war for independence (that they lost) and today is the conmemoration: the no-independence day of Catalonia: the Diada.

Yet, while Basques were clearly forced into both Spain and France, Catalans weren't forced in Spain so clearly. In fact, initially they supported the union of Aragon and Castile. But soon after they found themselves trapped under the foreign (Castilian) majority, so they started a war for independence against the heirs of Philip II, occasion that the Portugese used to get rid of the Spanish opression. Emtre Espanha e o Oceano, o Oceano!

Nowadays nations (peoples) need their own states to be able to survive so the sense of urgency is even greater, specially after centralist policies that have plagued Europe in the last centuries.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 14:12
Yeah the borderlines between latin linguistic countries are very arbitrary, which is my point since the begining. Between France and Spain but also between France and Italy.

The French Catalans are not really that independantists, neither the French Basques are. I'm a little far away from French Catalonia, but I've seen Catalan website who want an independant Catalonia + Occitania + Savoy arguing it's the same cultural block. I basicly reject the idea, and I would prefer a large pan-latin state than this communautarism that stand on nothing to me.

For the French Basque country (Euskadi), I'm pretty close of it and I always go there several times a month. The only Basque I've heard there was spoken by Spanish Basques. Mostly, the independantists here are really a minority, overall France impress me by it's solidity compared to Spain or Italy. Or course there is regionalism and independantism, especially in Corsica, but not in the scale of Spain and Italy.

The French Catalans were indeed forced in France, that is quite clear. But the French basques are not really that clear. They were divided in 2, Gascony (a Duchy in France) and Navarre (a Kingdom split in France and Spain). The Duchy of Gascony was first ruled by the Normans (when they were Kings of England) and the Angevins (same stuff) and those often were complete bastards (the worst was Richard Lionheart), the Kings of France taking over the place in the 100 years' war was seen as a good thing apart by the aristocrats in Bordeaux who backed the King of England.

The Navarese part became French when the King of Navarre (Henry III) became King of France (Henry IV). Being understood than back then the Spanish Navarre was already absorbed in Castille while the French part was still free until the Bourbon kings became Kings of France
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 14:33
Well, I can tell you that when I go to the North, I make myself understand in Basque - my French is very limited and everybody speaks Basque, at least in the rural areas. An overwhelming majority of Basques, including all local members of pan-French parties, support the Basque Department (to start with). 

I know the history of Navarre, I wrote an article for the site on the Basque People in the Middle Ages. But you must know that Navarre wasn't absorbed by Castile (only conquered) until the 19th century. Until 1833, the economic frontier was in the Ebro river and the port of Navarre was Baionne. Navarre suffered a lot economically from the forced change of economic borders.

Equally in the North, the Revolution with its centralist Jacobine policies destroyed the socioeconomical structure of the Basque provinces. That's, why in both sides of the muga, Basques, who needed no revolution, as they had always had democratic states and mostly non-feudal society, joined the reactionary parties in search of retaining their freedoms.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 15:05
That surprises me, in Biarritz and Bayonne the language you have to use is French without doubt.

But in the rural area, indeed Basque might still be present but that everybody speaks it really amaze me.

The southwestern France has always been rather rich. The Basque country being the exeption I wonder why. Pau, Bordeaux, Auch, Lourdes..... those always have done well and both Lourdes and Pau were in the Kingdom of Navarre (I could also mention Toulouse which is the frontier between Gascony and Languedoc).

Yeah, the Basque department makes it's idea it's true. But that's definitely not independantism or regionalism. It's more a question of structure, some people here want to unify us with the Languedoc-Roussillon region and reform the County of Toulouse (we already are France largest region and a powerful one) but I don't think regionalism is strong here either. Some people in Normandy want to unify Haute and Basse Normandie (and it's going to happen I think) but I don't think it's a regionalist issue either.

I saw that article on the Basque people, one thing bugged me. It's true Caesar said the Aquitanians had a distinct culture of the Gauls. But at the same time he said the people of Aquitaine could teach the Romans themselves to speak Latin more correctly.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 17:13
Originally posted by Exarchus Exarchus wrote:

That surprises me, in Biarritz and Bayonne the language you have to use is French without doubt.


It's the same in all big cities, in Bilbao you have to use Spanish most of the time, that doesn't mean a lot of people doesn't speak Basque. Anyhow I know better rural Lapurdi (Labourd) and Benabarre (Navarre) than the coast.

Quote But in the rural area, indeed Basque might still be present but that everybody speaks it really amaze me.


Everybody or almost. It's not compulsory of course.

You can travel through large parts of the Basque Country using only Basque as communication language, that includes most of the North (except possibly the BAB).

Quote The southwestern France has always been rather rich. The Basque country being the exeption I wonder why. Pau, Bordeaux, Auch, Lourdes..... those always have done well and both Lourdes and Pau were in the Kingdom of Navarre (I could also mention Toulouse which is the frontier between Gascony and Languedoc).


The original name of Tolouse, Tolosa, is totally Basque. It means something bended or twisted (from tolestu: to bend). There is another Tolosa in Gipuzkoa. I guess the name comes because the river makes a twist there or something like that.

Quote Yeah, the Basque department makes it's idea it's true. But that's definitely not independantism or regionalism. It's more a question of structure (...)


It's a must. While Bearnois are historical relatives they don't feel Basque anymore nor they speak the language, so a Basque territory of some kind, with co-oficiality for Euskara (or Eskuera, as they say oin the North) is absolutely necessary. Anyhow, Basque nationalist candidates are all the time getting more and more votes, probably because state-wide parties are showing their unwillingness to compromise. Yet the majoritarian electoral system and the artificial drawing of circunscriptions plays against them, along with the well stabilished French nationalism.

Quote I saw that article on the Basque people, one thing bugged me. It's true Caesar said the Aquitanians had a distinct culture of the Gauls. But at the same time he said the people of Aquitaine could teach the Romans themselves to speak Latin more correctly.


I doubt he said that, seriously. Maybe the Aquitanians of later times... but when Caesar conqueed Gaul I don't think that Latin had still spread outside the borders of the Roman Province.

Still, if some Basques (Aquitanians) of the time could speak Latin they would surely make good use of declinations, because Basque is also a declinative language. Maybe also the 5-vowel system helped to make Basque-spoken Latin sound cleaner, without Celtisms nor prepositions. Just speculating, anyhow.

I hope you won't be suggesting that Caesar's times Aquitanians were the lost tribe of Rome or something like that... that would make no sense. To start with because Caesar used the term Iberi, to define them, not Romani.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 17:45
I'm not suggesting that at all. It's just I had this quote in mind.

I'm very dubious of the power of the nationalist basques in France. Maybe as you say in the rural area. But in the cities, I doubt they are nationalists.

I live in rural Gascony and no one speaks Gascon at all anymore. French is the language we all use now. Even when I was a kid, French was already the language.
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