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Forum LockedNew Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 BP

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Post Options Post Options   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 BP
    Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 06:59
When considering this,  keep in mind the Mt. Toba post. The time lines as we have accepted are going to have to change, IMHO. 
 
When reading, please note that there is more I haven't yet posted, which will raise even more questions.
 
 

New radiocarbon dates: Evidence puts man in North America 50,000 years ago

By Chris Horn

Radiocarbon tests on soil and twigs where artifacts were unearthed last May along the Savannah River in Allendale County by USC archaeologist Albert Goodyear indicate that the artifacts are at least 50,000 years old, meaning that humans inhabited North American long before the last Ice Age.

The findings are significant because they suggest that humans inhabited North America long more than 24,000 years ago, a potentially explosive revelation in American archaeology.

Goodyear, who has garnered international attention for his discoveries of tools that pre-date what is believed to be humans’ arrival in North America, announced the test results, which were done by the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Nov. 17.

The dawn of modern Homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of man’s migration has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that man could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.

In 1998, Goodyear, nationally known for his research on the Clovis culture, named for people who lived in Clovis, N.M., around 11,000 years ago, dug two meters below the surface of the Pleistocene terrace at Topper. The excavation site is on the bank of the Savannah River on property owned by Clariant Corp., a chemical corporation headquartered near Basel, Switzerland. He recovered numerous stone tool artifacts in soils that were later dated by an outside team of geologists to be 16,000 years old.

For five years, Goodyear continued to add artifacts and evidence that a pre-Clovis people existed, slowly eroding the long-held theory by archaeologists that man arrived in North America around 13,000 years ago.

Last May, Goodyear dug even deeper to see whether man’s existence extended further back in time. Using a backhoe and hand excavations, Goodyear’s team dug through the Pleistocene terrace soil, some four meters below the ground surface. Goodyear found a number of artifacts similar to the pre-Clovis forms he has excavated in recent years.

Then on the last day of the last week of digging, Goodyear uncovered a stain in the soil where artifacts lay, providing him the charcoal needed for radiocarbon dating. Goodyear sent several twigs and a soil sample from the stain area to Stafford Research Laboratories in Boulder, Colo., for initial review. From there, the samples were sent to the Livermore labs, the definitive source for carbon testing.

The revelation of Topper’s age is expected to cast speculation on the age other well-known excavation sites that have turned up evidence of pre-Clovis man. The most notable sites are in Meadowcroft, Pa., and Cactus Hill, Va.

From Oct. 23 to 29, 2005, archaeologists will convene at USC’s Colonial Center for a conference on Clovis and the study of earliest Americans. The conference will include a day trip to Topper, which is sure to dominate discussions and presentations at the international gathering.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 08:55
Is hard to believe.
 
50.000 years would mean people were entering the Americas before leaving Africa.
 
Curious.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 11:06

Accepted time line for the "out of Africa " theory is 80-120,000 BP.  Some put it as early as 160,000.  Recent studies using new technology and MtDNA however are challenging that theory, not just the timeline, but the entire theory.  [thread on that coming]

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 11:11
I put ta link to the same article a couple of weeks ago, it seem to have broken. I should have pasted it like you.
 
There's not a lot you can really do when you dig up artifacts from below the Clovis Belt, where there should be nothing. Radiocarbon date them and find they're pre-clovis.
 
You either think they're pre-clovis or you deny radiocarbon dating works and the archaeological technique of digging in  layers to discover dates works to.
 
Both these very techniques are what gave us clovis in the first place. So you deny them you're denying the science behind clovis too. And can't use any dates concerned with that either.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 11:47
It's even more interesting when you start to consider that 77,000BP there was a population crash and humans were reduced to 10,000 individuals world wide. [see Genetic Bottleneck thread in this topic forum] 
 
 
Now there are researchers in Australia who, having done genetic studies on 10 skeletons, say they have found evidence of humans whose DNA doesn't match any other on earth, directly challenging the out of Africa theory-
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 15:20
We are constantly finding more evidence to support regional continuity. IIRC, many Chinese paleoanthropologists have rejected the complete replacement model altogether-saying that they have evidence supporting H. erectus up to anatomically modern humans, premoderns with modern features etc..
 
This is a great time for anthropologySmile
 
Red Clay, the same goes for Australia. I'm telling ya regional continuity...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 18:14
HERESY!  OUTRAGE!   WILD SPECULATION!
 
And it's starting to make sense. Big smile  Some of it anyway, if you look at the population crash caused by the Toba eruption our numbers were reduced to about 10,000 circa 77,000 BP world wide.  The regional continuity theory answers a lot of questions, unfortunately it raises 1,000 times as many.  Factor in the finding of habitation dating to 50,000 in the Americas and you have to completely re map the entire early immigration routes.  Someones probably doing that as I speak. Smile


Edited by red clay - 25-Nov-2006 at 18:20
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 21:32
Though the existance of Pre Clovis people is indisputable, I believe that some of the fantasticaly early dates at the Savannah River site have been challenged by other researchers citing poor dating / stratiographical techniques.
 
Originally posted by Goban

We are constantly finding more evidence to support regional continuity. IIRC, many Chinese paleoanthropologists have rejected the complete replacement model altogether-saying that they have evidence supporting H. erectus up to anatomically modern humans, premoderns with modern features etc..
 
This is a great time for anthropologySmile
 
Red Clay, the same goes for Australia. I'm telling ya regional continuity...
 
I wonder if these possibilites tie into the "Hobbits" on Flores.  Evidently, the Hobbits are looking more and more genuine.


Edited by Cryptic - 26-Nov-2006 at 21:36
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Post Options Post Options   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 03:01
Originally posted by Cryptic

Though the existance of Pre Clovis people is indisputable, I believe that some of the fantasticaly early dates at the Savannah River site have been challenged by other researchers citing poor dating / stratiographical techniques.
 
Originally posted by Goban

We are constantly finding more evidence to support regional continuity. IIRC, many Chinese paleoanthropologists have rejected the complete replacement model altogether-saying that they have evidence supporting H. erectus up to anatomically modern humans, premoderns with modern features etc..
 
This is a great time for anthropologySmile
 
Red Clay, the same goes for Australia. I'm telling ya regional continuity...
 
I wonder if these possibilites tie into the "Hobbits" on Flores.  Evidently, the Hobbits are looking more and more genuine.
 
 
 
That team has been working that site for 11 years, all claims of poor technique have been soundly refuted.  The archeologist in charge has been extremely careful, since breaking the 20,000 he knew anything beyond would be highly controversial.  All dating was done by the Livermore Labs.
 
BTW-  Cactus hill in Virginia has dating at 30,000+ and still going.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 27-Nov-2006 at 03:05
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 08:13

Regarding regional continuity....

Lets assume that the theory is correct and that modern humans developed independently in Africa, Asia and quite possibly in Australia and the Americas.
 
What would explain the remarkable genetic / anatomical similarity between all modern humans?   Most of the differences that do exist are quite literally only skin deep.  These similarities exist even between very isolated groups such as Koreans, Tibetans, African "Bushmen", other rural Africans, Amazonian Indians (Including Tierra del Fuego), Addaman Islanders, modern Australian Abirigones,  etc.
 
Perhaps there were many waves of migration out of Africa and some of these waves were more successful than others.     
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 27-Nov-2006 at 18:51
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 16:03
Perhaps, but what about independent development or an isolation long enough to develop phenotypes as an adaptation to their environment, or a genetic drift, with just enough gene flow via migration or trade (wouldn't take much) to keep the pool relatively stable?
 
We can see major differences between old world monkeys and new world monkeys. Their dentition is very different for one. This is due to complete isolation for a long period. Humans on the other hand are travelers and explorers. Also, we tend not to be too picky about who we share our beds with...
 
 
Edit: Let's say that an isolated population is lucky enough to have absolutely no influence for a thousand years. That's only 40-50 generations when you think about it...
 
 


Edited by Goban - 27-Nov-2006 at 16:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 17:37
I replied to cryptics post about an hour ago, I saw the post register and show on the page.  Why was it deleted?  I am not going to waste my time to have someone decide they "don't like whats being said" and send my
thoughts off into the ether.    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 18:52
Was it before my post?
 
Who has the authority to do that? Did you talk to a mod?


Edited by Goban - 27-Nov-2006 at 18:54
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 19:21
Originally posted by Goban

Humans on the other hand are travelers and explorers. Also, we tend not to be too picky about who we share our beds with...
  
Edit: Let's say that an isolated population is lucky enough to have absolutely no influence for a thousand years. That's only 40-50 generations when you think about it...
 
 
Perhaps human development is a blend of Continual development and Out of Africa.   Maybe it went like this....
  - Isolated Homo Erectus groups in Asia, Africa and perhaps the Americas start to develop into regional varieties of Homo Sapiens.
   -  Then, African groups develop some key advantages over the other independent groups.  (more complex languages, social concepts etc.)  These allow the Africans to cooperate and move as tribes, not just small family groups.
  - Living as tribes also spurs technological development far more rapidly than the local Homo Sapiens living as family groups  
   -  These African groups (Super Sapiens AfricanusesWink) then move across the globe in a series of waves.  Each succesive African wave has a more pronounced advantage of the local Homo Sapiens varieties.   Regional Homo Sapien varities are either absorbed or in some cases, killed off.   Their genetic lines end (for all practical purposes) 
 
Originally posted by red clay

I replied to cryptics post about an hour ago, I saw the post register and show on the page.  Why was it deleted?   
Perhaps it was a computer bug.  My computer has had trouble finding this site.  I think some of my posts disappeared as well a few weeks ago.  
  


Edited by Cryptic - 27-Nov-2006 at 19:27
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