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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 05:59
Originally posted by raygun raygun wrote:

I read that the top 3 martial arts suitable for the street are: Boxing, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu.

But on the street anything goes; punching, bitting, bottles, bricks, etc.


There is no "martial art suitable for the street."

What there ARE are martial arts with a more brutally utilitarian set of techniques.

Martial arts can train you to be fast, strong, resilient, and skilled. But a real conflict requires various things.

It requires physical ability--something almost any martial art can train, if you're good at learning.

It requires a psychological willingness to do anything--read, ANYTHING--that is necessary to survive and protect yourself and others (although survival first, obviously), and do it without hesitation or mercy. That is extremely important--probably MORE important than the physical side--and there is NO martial art WHATSOEVER that can teach it.

And it requires sheer good luck.

And that is not something that any martial art can teach either.




Edited by TheARRGH - 06-Aug-2008 at 05:59
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jgvuj ibkoou kjmo


Edited by raygun - 06-Aug-2008 at 17:34
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Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:

Nice topic here, Batu...

Others have said most of the "it's about confidence, etc." stuff that's the most important, so I'll settle for an overview of the martial arts I actually know something about.

Aikido:

Aikido can be effective. Joint locks and atemi, mainly. The chief problems; it's often not taught to be effective, and any locking/grappling art takes a long time to get used to, and even longer to be good at. I've found ikkyo and yonkyo to be reasonably effective (in real life, I'm a little bit of a martial arts freak...) but you have have studied for a long time learning the..."Right"...way (for you) to get them to work.

Taekwando:

Good kicks, and you can get crazy fit doing it--excellent cardio, and definitely a certain amount of strength training. It was originally adopted to fight enemies on horseback, so a lot of high moves which CAN be effective--they just need lots of time, lots of effort, and knowing when and how to apply them.

Brazilian jujitsu:

Good groundwork. It's fun. It's rough. It's hard to get used to locking and holding, like I said. My only gripe with BJJ is that it has no real means of dealing with multiple opponents--which is one part of martial arts I really like, even if it's disturbingly hard.

Wing tsun:

Wing tsun is a very nice striking art. It requires a lot of finesse, speed, control, and co-ordination. And, thus, it develops those aspects of your physical capabilities.

Wushu:

"Wushu" is a broad term for chinese martial arts. It can be sport-focused, with the emphasis on forms, flashiness, and fun. Or it can be very traditional, with the emphasis on, basically, getting stronger, faster, tougher, more skilled, and with a repotoire of incredibly effective techniques. Matter of personal preference;either can be great. Also a matter of style; there are LOTS of styles of Wushu. Fujian White Crane is in some ways similar to Wing tsun--lots of finesse and control. There are both Northern and Southern Praying Mantis styles, each with it's own distinctions. There is Monkey Kung fu, unpredictable and complex. And those are just the beginning...

Capoeira:

Capoeira is a brazilian martial art with the emphasis on kicks, take-downs, reading body language, unpredictability, and dodging rather than flat-out blocking. It can be effective, although there are certain techniques that are only there for training/display purposes. It comes in three varieties; Angola, which is closer to the ground and in which the emphasis is on clever planning, Regional, in which the emphasis is on speed, reflexes, and athletic ability, and contemporeana, a broad term denoting schools which seek to combine the best of both main styles. It is an EXTREMELY good workout, too; by twenty minutes into the first class, you will feel the strain.

...well, it depends on the teacher, but that was how it was for me--and i'm in pretty good shape.

 
All those Martial arts are complitely useless for real fighting except Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu which in fact has very few things in common in the other MA listed.
 
Aikido pracitioners never tried to challenge other martial artists emphasizing that physical fight is not important. Some styles of Aikodo though like Yoshinkan have some effective aspects but it should be trained in combination with striking techniques.
 
Sole Taiekwondo pracitioners were many times badly beaten  by Kick-boxers, boxers and thai-boxers, though Taekwondo gives excellent physical shape and basis on which you can build necessary fighting skills like Thai boxing. However, Taekwondo techniques per se are useless on the street.
 
Wushu is a very broad term indeed, however, again traditional wushu stules are complitely useless for the real fight. In the 1960th matches with Muay Thai pracitioners proved complete inefficiency of traditional Wushu styles. Several famous masters were knocked-out  in some seconds. This was a very humiliating experience which made Chinese to rethink complitely their attitude to MA. China developed it's own style of Thai Boxing which is called Sanshoudao this is indeed a very effective martial style of hand to hand combat, however it actually has much more in common with kick boxing and Muay Thai rather than with traditional Wushu/Gongfu.
 
Wingtsun is the same animal as Wushu.
 
Capoeira is again ineffective but gives you an excellent physical shape.
 
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a very effective technique of ground wrestling perhaps the best in the world. It's the basis of the training of many of the famous athletes in MMA competions. It doesn't have much in common with the other MA mentioned above. The shortcoming of BJJ is the lack of striking and kicking techniques you can't be a good MMA fighter nowdays without good boxing and kickboxing supplement. So, those BJJ practioners who take part in MMA competition now also hevily train in boxing and kick boxing/muay thai.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 12:11
what about Judo? it looks like brazilian jujutsu;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 16:29
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

 All those Martial arts are complitely useless for real fighting


...Really? tried them yourself?

Many of these arts have techniques which are very difficult--sometimes near impossible--to use in combat. That is not the same thing as "useless." Aikido has many joint locks which are perfectly acceptable; taekwando can be impractical, but it has quite a few kicks that, delivered at the correct time, and with enough skill, can work quite well. Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight. Wushu is an incredibly broad term, and like I said, a lot of Wushu nowadays is mostly sport-oriented--but try walking into the Shaolin temple and attacking one of the monks. What they do is Wushu too, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to test whether they can actually fight or not.
Capoeira is by no means useless; it's just that it requires a lot of skill to pull off correctly. It has some very good kicks, and the take-downs are excellent. Moreover, capoeira originated as a method of combat. Most Mestres, a long time ago, were considered incredibly dangerous, and sometimes quite willing to kill. That's changed a bit, but few of them are useless in a fight.

Saying that there is such a thing as a useless martial art in a real fight betrays a lack of understanding of real fighting. A Muay Thai combatant, in a real fight, on the street, with no rules, does not go into a Muay Thai stance and use specific Muay Thai techniques. He uses whatever he can find, from wherever he can find it, in order to survive.

That is something that any martial artist can do, because that depends largely on the individual rather than the art. There is no such thing as a specific martial art in a real fight--there's just survival. Assuming your style makes all--or even most--of the difference is laughable.

MMA fights are deceptive; it looks like real fighting, sure. But in MMA, there are rules. Also in MMA, you don't have to contend with the enemy's friend circling around behind you to hit you with the sharp edge of a broken bottle. Pinning someone to the ground is great against one person, but very bad when you're dealing with more than that. If you stay still in a fight against numbers, you've lost.

Any "Match" is useless to discover which "style" is better. it purely and simply demonstrates which COMBATANT is better--in a predictable environment with rules and no bricks, bottles, allies, etc.

ALL a martial art does for you, on the street, is give you physical conditioning and coordination and a general way of moving. That's it. There's no martial art on the street, there's just survival based on whatever you can improvise and throw together. Which is, I say it again, an INDIVIDUAL characteristic.

Style isn't really important compared to individual psychology, creativity, ruthlessness, etc. It'd be awfully convenient if style made all the difference, but it doesn't. Some, perhaps, but a lot less than individual characteristics and sheer luck.






Edited by TheARRGH - 06-Aug-2008 at 19:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gargoyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 18:47

Originally posted by snowybeagle snowybeagle wrote:

If you want something useful in the street, go and learn in the street.


Exactly right snowybeagle!!!

While living in Honduras recently Gargoyle learned that he needed something more "useful" than martial arts in the streets there... so he bought himself a Colt Python...

Gargoyle found this was especially very useful in Tegucigalpa and San Pedro Sula after dark... and when traveling through the region of Olancho... (it's like the wild west over there!!!)

Unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to waste a few punks... next time perhaps???

Although, there were a couple of hairy moments when I reached for it...

Ummmmmmm... when Gargoyle was a teenager he used to train in the Shito-Ryu style of Karate... I remember it was a great dicipline to learn, I became fit and the sparring sessions were alot of FUN!!!

Every martial art has it's strengths and weaknesses...

SUMO FOREVER!!!!!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 18:55
Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:


While living in Honduras recently Gargoyle learned that he needed something more "useful" than martial arts in the streets there... so he bought himself a Colt Python...


How did Gargoyle learn this?

Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:


Although, there were a couple of hairy moments when I reached for it...


Uh-oh...what happened, if I might ask?


Quote
Every martial art has it's strengths and weaknesses...


I really wish the rest of the world shared that opinion.








Edited by TheARRGH - 06-Aug-2008 at 18:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gargoyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:

How did Gargoyle learn this?


After reading Honduran newspapers and watching the news reports on TV and seeing all the weaponry on display in the streets of Honduran cities... I felt a little bit inadequate and lonely...

I felt safer carrying one...

Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:

Uh-oh...what happened, if I might ask?


Ummmmmmmm... it's nothing to bragg about... let's just say that Gargoyle had a difference of opinion with a few other people and he was very fortunate he had his Revolver with him...





Edited by Gargoyle - 06-Aug-2008 at 19:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 19:40
Originally posted by Gargoyle Gargoyle wrote:


Ummmmmmmm... I don't feel comfortable reliving these moments... and it's nothing to bragg about... let's just say that Gargoyle had a difference of opinion with a few other people and it was very fortunate he had his Colt with him...


Fair enough. I can understand not wanting to discuss it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 19:51
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:


...Really? tried them yourself?

Many of these arts have techniques which are very difficult--sometimes near impossible--to use in combat. That is not the same thing as "useless." Aikido has many joint locks which are perfectly acceptable; taekwando can be impractical, but it has quite a few kicks that, delivered at the correct time, and with enough skill, can work quite well. Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight. Wushu is an incredibly broad term, and like I said, a lot of Wushu nowadays is mostly sport-oriented--but try walking into the Shaolin temple and attacking one of the monks. What they do is Wushu too, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to test whether they can actually fight or not.
Capoeira is by no means useless; it's just that it requires a lot of skill to pull off correctly. It has some very good kicks, and the take-downs are excellent. Moreover, capoeira originated as a method of combat. Most Mestres, a long time ago, were considered incredibly dangerous, and sometimes quite willing to kill. That's changed a bit, but few of them are useless in a fight.

Saying that there is such a thing as a useless martial art in a real fight betrays a lack of understanding of real fighting. A Muay Thai combatant, in a real fight, on the street, with no rules, does not go into a Muay Thai stance and use specific Muay Thai techniques. He uses whatever he can find, from wherever he can find it, in order to survive.

That is something that any martial artist can do, because that depends largely on the individual rather than the art. There is no such thing as a specific martial art in a real fight--there's just survival. Assuming your style makes all--or even most--of the difference is laughable.

MMA fights are deceptive; it looks like real fighting, sure. But in MMA, there are rules. Also in MMA, you don't have to contend with the enemy's friend circling around behind you to hit you with the sharp edge of a broken bottle. Pinning someone to the ground is great against one person, but very bad when you're dealing with more than that. If you stay still in a fight against numbers, you've lost.

Any "Match" is useless to discover which "style" is better. it purely and simply demonstrates which COMBATANT is better--in a predictable environment with rules and no bricks, bottles, allies, etc.

ALL a martial art does for you, on the street, is give you physical conditioning and coordination and a general way of moving. That's it. There's no martial art on the street, there's just survival based on whatever you can improvise and throw together. Which is, I say it again, an INDIVIDUAL characteristic.

Style isn't really important compared to individual psychology, creativity, ruthlessness, etc. Deal with it.
 
Yes. I tried all the "arts" you listed even Capoeiro.Smile Of course I didn't do each of them for many years, but I have at leat general understanding of what they are about.
I've been a witness to humiliating experiences of "traditional martial arts masters" that's why I came to think like I think now. For example, I saw how "Wushu champion of Europe" got beaten by a low class boxer. They guy quited wushu after that, he is now a professional Muay Thai fighter and a master of boxing. Smile
 
You're incorrect if you think that the techniques aren't important and MA gives you only conditioning. Techniques are very important if you want to protect yourself.
Most of the fights on the street resemble boxing match with punches thrown in the head and body some times it ends in "wrestling" on the ground.
You might be a black belt in aikido, but if you can't protect your head and can't hold punches, you'll most likely be knocked out without even realizing what's going on... Simply because you're untrained for this kind of "fight."
Most of those MA for example you listed had weird basic stances and peope who practice it are simply get lost when they are punched in the head with simple straight jabs.
Of course MMA, boxing and Muay Thai are not 100% "real street" but they are much closer to the real street than aikido or wingtsun or taekwondo.
Boxing and Muay Thai is 100% training of your punching and striking power and defences against those strike and punches. Only most effective and tested techniques are used. Everything is easy, simple and straight forward.
You'll never have a real sparring in Aikido in most of the others traditional MA you'll spend most of the time on polishing your correct stance, basic moves etc. may be only 10% in real sparring. It won't prepare you for the real fight on the street unless you face some untrained person in the physical conditions inferior to yours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 20:00
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

what about Judo? it looks like brazilian jujutsu;
 
Good observation. Smile
In fact, Brazilian jiujitsu has its origins in judo. A Japanese master trained the members of Brazilian Gracie family in the art of judo which they later developed into Brazilian jiujitsu.
 
The difference of Brazilian jiujitsu is that they emphasize ground wrestling or "parterre" as it called in French. So,it's like to guys are lying on the ground and wrestle there. Brazilian jiujitsu guys are always trying to bring the fight on the ground where they always will be victorious even against the bigger opponents.
 
So, the main aim of a Brazilian jiujitsu guy is to get to the ground as soon as possible, "fighting of feet" techinuqes are not emphasized.
 
By contrast in judo due to the rules you have only a limited time allowed for the parterre wrestling, so the most impotant aspect here is throws. Throws on feet are practiced again and again.
 
Judo teached you good wrestling techniques, balance and conditioning it's much more useful for a real wight then some  traditional "Bullshido." But you would need to supplement it with some good striking and punching if you want to be a complete fighter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2008 at 21:08
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

You're incorrect if you think that the techniques aren't important and MA gives you only conditioning. Techniques are very important if you want to protect yourself.
Most of the fights on the street resemble boxing match with punches thrown in the head and body some times it ends in "wrestling" on the ground.
You might be a black belt in aikido, but if you can't protect your head and can't hold punches, you'll most likely be knocked out without even realizing what's going on... Simply because you're untrained for this kind of "fight."


I think that you're misunderstanding me a bit.

I'm not suggesting that these are excellent fighting arts; or that techniques make no difference. If I want to learn how to punch really well, I take up boxing. I want to learn to use elbows and knees, I'll try some Muay Thai. If I need some groundfighting skills, by all means I'll study some BJJ. Those ARE simple and straightforward arts which can be immensely practical and useful.

My point is more that there is no such thing as a useless style; there are people who are very bad at fighting. Arguing about style involves making sweeping generalizations about huge numbers of people, and there's little that's useful or accurate about that.

If you fight, you are not fighting a style. You are an individual, fighting an individual or group of individuals. If you fight a black belt in Aikido, it's quite possible that due to certain life experiences, [s]he has had more real fights than you; or that [s]he is just more creative than you and has learned enough about self-defense to punch more than grasp and keep his/her guard up; or has a weapon; or is simply more calm, collected, and clever than you. In a fight, the individual matters so much more than the style. Even though there are generalizations one can make that are fairly accurate, they are generalizations--they can't be relied upon in a fight, and so they aren't really that important. If we're talking about real fights, you don't rely on large and sweeping assumptions. Not if you want to survive. you simply act and react as needed--and they try to do the same. And that characteristic is not confined to particular styles.

Likewise, in a real fight you do not really use the actual martial art you train in--you use techniques that generally have no particular art associated with them, based on the situation. An Aikidoka, unless he is stupid, does not specifically try to use Aikido in a fight. Neither does a Muay Thai fighter set out to specifically fight "using Muay Thai."

An Aikidoka might try to get joint-locks IF HE CAN. a muay Thai fighter might use his knees and elbows more than most people would. But the Aikidoka AND the Muay Thai fighter would not be using Aikido and Muay Thai (unless they were much too wrapped up in style). They would, fundamentally, just be surviving as best they can. Discussions of style are not irrelevant, but they do miss the point to a certain extent. In matches and in real fights, it is a mistake to think that combatants are representatives of their respective arts. They are trying to win in one, and survive in the other, however they can, to the extent that it is possible, and they are doing it as individuals against individuals.

The best advice for any martial artist is; get what you want out of the art you study, but be more than just the style you take, no matter what.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raygun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 03:10

My advice is if you want to do Judo or BJJ, supplement ur training with boxing or Muay Thai if possible. Because Judo or BJJ emphasize on take-downs, which are considered sacrificial techniques - both u & ur opponent are on the ground. In one-on-one scenario its ok, but if ur facing multiple guys - forget it, u'll get kick in ur face & groin!

Boxing & Muay Thai is useful because u really practice hitting ur opponent, more in action with a real target than practicing styles. Impt point is, u need to feel natural, confident and in control when hitting a real person, u not only learn to hit where it counts but also learn to take hits. All these provides u with experience and preparedness. To learn to fight, u need to fight! And not just hitting to score points like a karate tournament, but hitting to incapacitate ur opponent, take him down!

That said, dun be afraid or feel chicken to walk away from a fight. Learn to assess the situation and not let ur ego get the better of u.
 
Remember, on the streets there are no rules - there is only the survivor & the one in the hospital.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 04:51
One question I'm surprised nobody's asked:
 
How tall are you and how much do you weigh? Your body type certainly makes a difference in looking for the MAs that are right for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 06:55
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley Bernard Woolley wrote:

One question I'm surprised nobody's asked:
 
How tall are you and how much do you weigh? Your body type certainly makes a difference in looking for the MAs that are right for you.


The rest of us were too busy having our debate about styleBig%20smile. good job asking the needed query.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 07:23
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

I've been a witness to humiliating experiences of "traditional martial arts masters" that's why I came to think like I think now. For example, I saw how "Wushu champion of Europe" got beaten by a low class boxer. They guy quited wushu after that, he is now a professional Muay Thai fighter and a master of boxing. Smile
Oh please, if such a thing come to pass, the title isn't worth a bucket of spit in the first place.
How did the so called Wushu champion of Europe got that title in the first place?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 10:22
I am neither tall nor short;neither fat nor slim.19 years old.I found something like Hapkido,it looks cool.what about it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 10:51
Originally posted by TheARRGH TheARRGH wrote:

  Wing Tsun is what Bruce lee studied predominantly, at least in the beginning--and I really don't think anyone could call him useless in a fight.
Was he ever in one? 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Was he ever in one? 
 


Apparently there were one or two people who considered him nothing more than an actor...they fought, he won.

Then again--Bruce lee was a major proponent of cross-training. He took some fencing and wrestling as well.

Apparently, one time a wrestler who had pinned him in practice asked what he would do if that happened in an actual fight; Bruce lee just said "Why, I'd bite you of course!"


Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gargoyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 17:50

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Was he ever in one?


Are you serious gcle2003?????

Read this please... it should bring you up to date...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee   



Jugo de sandia es muy bueno!
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