History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedNapoleon: Victories & Defeats

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Napoleon: Victories & Defeats
    Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 05:25
Plancenoit is about four miles from Waterloo, half-way there from where the Prussians started out that day. I already said that strategically Napoleon was handicapped by having to guard against and engage the Prussians.
 
But the battle of Waterloo itself was won tactically before the Prussians arrived on the field of Waterloo in significant numbers.
 
The battle of Waterloo and Napoleon's 'Waterloo' campaign - which includes the battles of Ligny and Plancenoit - are not the same thing.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-Aug-2006 at 05:26
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
Post Options Post Options   Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 13:53
How was it won before the Prussians? Its amazing how british historians totally distorted this battle. They beef up the so called stand against the Imperial guard when both the Young and the famous Old guard were fighting the Prussians. Who had close to 48000 men fighting by 6pm. The Imperial guard final assualt was around 7pm. Without the Prussians Wellington would of been routed. Plancenoit was the same battle it took up 20000 men of Napoleons army that was facing Wellington. These forces were moved during the battle of waterloo. How is this not a factor? This would of smashed the british lines to bits. Tactically without the Prussians it would of been a disaster. It wasnt even a victory until the Prussians broke through and threatened encirclement.

can you show me where exactly Waterloo is on this map? Which was the situation at 830




    

Edited by Gundamor - 02-Aug-2006 at 16:22
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 08:45
I've never disregarded - in fact have frequently mentioned - that the French had to use forces to hold back the Prussians. For that matter a whole chunk of the army had been sent to Strasbourg as a precaution. Napoleon's entire army wasn't at Waterloo, and, yes, the situation may have ended very differently had it been.
 
However, on the day, on the field, Napoleon had to break through the allied forces before reinforcements arrived from the Prussians. Wellington only had to stand firm and hold him off.
 
Every French attack was beaten back. Napoleon failed. Wellington succeeded.
 
(I've been over the ground at Waterloo a couple of times, and, though it was admittedly some time ago, the scaling here doesn't look very accurate. But I can't find anything better than a sketch map myself, at least for the moment.)
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 03-Aug-2006 at 08:46
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 14:36
now it becomes a travesty, i'm really dissapointed Gcle.... Ouch
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 03:41
No, I think gcle is right. At least closer to right. I think british credit for waterloo is unfairly diminished. The majority of the fighting was carried out by the british, and they held all french attacks. That deserves alot of credit.

But, I think Tolstoy in War and Peace has it right about Napoleon. If your looking for the causes of success and defeat in battle, the general in command isn't that important. Especially in 19 centuary warfare when the general couldn't possibly control the battle if he wanted to.
Also the russians nor the french would've caused the fire in Moscow after boridino. If you have a huge army, exhausted, in a deserted city made of wood, a fire is bound to start.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 03:56
Well, the general still leads the battle and a disciplined army should obey each command that is not ordered in insanity. The general has always been and always will be very important.
 
But please continue, I didn't want to interrupt.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 06:34
Originally posted by Rider

Well, the general still leads the battle and a disciplined army should obey each command that is not ordered in insanity. The general has always been and always will be very important.

Is he actually in command?
Before the battle, during training and preparation, I can see how a general can affect the army and the outcome of the battle. But during the actual battle especially a 19th centuary one, where the battle fields were large, and the only method of giving orders being messengers. Whats the chance that a order given by a general even makes it to the right place on time?
Even if it does make it to the right place, your counting on the troops not getting lost (which happened frequently in the Napoleonic Wars), your counting on the officer not pretending he lost the order if he didn't like it, your counting on the general actually knowing where a unit is.

The battle reports on the other hand, are always written by generals. As per my quote.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 07:20
As a case in point, a lot depended (at least it's arguable) on the formations in which the French launched their first attack. Whether they were right to attack the way they did or not, it wasn't Napoleon, on the ground, who decided.
 
Also of course the prince of Orange notably acted as rather a loose cannon until he was luckily (for the Allies) carried off injured.
 
Supporting your point about pre-battle preparations, it's arguable that Wellington's chief contribution to the victory was choosing the terrain on which it was fought.
 
(Just as important as preparing the wicket for a cricket match. Smile)
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 16:05
more loads of BS, the prince of Orange has prooven itself at Quatre-Bas, it was due to Wellingtons propaganda machien that this commander got away with bad credit and the Prussians with no credit at all. recent studies on another forum and by Peter Hofschröer for example have revealled the contribution of germans and especially Prussians to the victory at Waterloo that has been previously omitted in literature. the job of Wellington was nothign other than sit & wait. no one ever bothered to mention the charge of the Belgian carabineirs, the destruction of Wellingtons center (soemthign that hasn't occured often in history because the loss f teh center is as good as total annihilation for one side...) or that general Cambronne was in fact captured by the Hanoverian Landwehr Battaillion Osterode (or Benngisen, can't remember) and not by British...
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 16:06
Well, there were very few periods were the General himself personally commanded all armies. Already Antiochus III at Magnesia had a front of 3 km. Do you think he rode it all through? No, he personally led the first charge.
 
Did Alexander command his troops personally, did Scipio Africanus Maior? No. It has been so and it will remain so. Only today, the messages will reach probably the commanders on the right time.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1143
Post Options Post Options   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 16:10
Originally posted by Temujin

more loads of BS, the prince of Orange has prooven itself at Quatre-Bas, it was due to Wellingtons propaganda machien that this commander got away with bad credit and the Prussians with no credit at all. recent studies on another forum and by Peter Hofschröer for example have revealled the contribution of germans and especially Prussians to the victory at Waterloo that has been previously omitted in literature. the job of Wellington was nothign other than sit & wait. no one ever bothered to mention the charge of the Belgian carabineirs, the destruction of Wellingtons center (soemthign that hasn't occured often in history because the loss f teh center is as good as total annihilation for one side...) or that general Cambronne was in fact captured by the Hanoverian Landwehr Battaillion Osterode (or Benngisen, can't remember) and not by British...
 
I can't stop myself from addingTongue that British and Americans as well are masters in falsifying history and claiming other achievements as their own.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 01:15
Well, there were very few periods were the General himself personally commanded all armies. Already Antiochus III at Magnesia had a front of 3 km. Do you think he rode it all through? No, he personally led the first charge.

True, it probably applies for all time. Once the battle starts, the general isn't particularly important. Even if he tried he may is probably not able to control the army.
Even today, sure we can get a message to a place, but to know enough to give the right message is probably very hard.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1143
Post Options Post Options   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 04:14
Going back to the topic. Do you think that it was possible for Napoleon to win Battle of Lipsk and what were the reasons of defeat except allies numbers superiority.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 15:32
as for the autumn camapign of 1813, Napoleon failed to capitalize on his victory at Dresden. Vandamme got defeated at Kulm while pursuing the Austrians and Napoleon was on the defensive again. the Allies developed the Trachtenberg plan, that was if any of the three allied armies would be attacked, the army had to withdraw until the other armies could move up to their support. this way they prevented Napoleon from defeating them one by one as it was his favoured strategy. so he was pushed into the outskirts of Leipzig and ultimately Leipzig itself, which was the center of his rearward line of communciations etc. the allies foolishly abandoned the Trachtenberg plan after Leipzig so they were again beaten several times in 1814 in France by Napoleon. the failure of the French Berlin Army to take the Prussian capital also played a big role.
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1143
Post Options Post Options   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 03:20
So the allies were much clever than before. They new now Napoleon tactics and cause they have big numerical superiority Napoleon was without chances. Also many French veterans unit were destroyed in Russia especislly cavalry which is harder to train quickly.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.145 seconds.