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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 20:24
I remember one myth I learned about when I was backpaking in the Seven Devil Mountains on the Idaho-Oregon border or Hells Canyon National Recreation area.

The story goes that the area was named after an Indian who met seven devils in these mountains but that is all I know. I found this story on the back of the US Forest Service map for the Seven Devil Wilderness Area. The area has since been given all types of goulish and devilish names by Americans. It is a very spectacular area with jagged glacier carved peaks, forests and beautiful meadows.


By jimgspokane on Flickr


By tracyharton on Flickr

We camped at this very lake!!

Edited by eaglecap - 20-Jan-2009 at 20:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 17:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.
No breastfeeding then?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.
No breastfeeding then?
 
LOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 22:27
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?


not even from Llama???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 23:24
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and cheese were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?


not even from Llama???
lol, i dont think i'd like that , but they did have a diet rich in fruits and produce..i guess that helps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:20
The myths about big foot by Native Americans is interesting. I have heard some people talk about the so-called relationship Native Americans had with this mythical creature. Off hand I do not know any but if you do please tell us.


Please not about whether you believe in it or not- keep focused!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 01:51
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?
 

not even from Llama???
 
Believe me or not, we have Llamas in Chile, and that animal is as common as sheep and goats in Northern Chile. But believe me or not, I never ever have heared about llama milk or llama cheese for human consumtion. No other animal that size was available to produce milk. 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 20:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Milk and were unknown in the Americas before the cow and the goat.

No breastfeeding then?
  not even from Llama???

 

Believe me or not, we have Llamas in Chile, and that animal is as common as sheep and goats in Northern Chile. But believe me or not, I never ever have heared about llama milk or llama cheese for human consumtion. No other animal that size was available to produce milk. 


I know the Spanish introduced Sheep to the Navajo and probably the Hopi and Pueblo as well. You know many of the ruins in Arizona, Utah and New Mexico, we called Anasazi, are autually Hopi or Pueblo.

I wonder if there are any good myths from these tribes that someone can share with us. Now that I am volunteering at the American Indian museum I am going to start buying books about the arcaheology and native history of this area, also pioneer history. I have a great great Uncle who was buried in Tombstone, Arizona in the 1870's. I wonder what are some of the old wild west legends here. I will found out and post any here penguin.
Both North and South America are rich in lore, central also
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 22:40
Interesting point. The contact with the Spaniards changed the lifestyle of most Native Americans across the hemisphere. Spaniards introduced not only the horse, but also the sheep, the goat, the cow, the ox, the mule, and some vegetables like rice, lettuches, oranges, lemmons, etc. In clothing they introduced pants, the "sombrero", etc.
In fact, when the expansion to the west happened in the U.S., many American Indians were already acculturized by contact with Spaniards, so they have horses, for instance and many interesting things.
Even more curious is that people like the Navajo today still have Spanish last names.
 
Interesting work you have. Please keep me up to day with yours discoveries.


Edited by pinguin - 23-Jan-2009 at 22:41
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 09:11
In western North America, horses often spread ahead of European contact via native trade routes.

So did religion in a few rare cases. A converted Iroqouis fur trader named "Old Ignace" travelled to Montana and settled down among tribes there. He proselytized among the Kalispel and Flathead tribes, and spoke alot about the mystical powers of the "Black Robes" (Catholic missionaries). The Salish decided the new religion wasn't complete without these "Black Robes" and sent several expeditions east to bring some. These expeditions all failed. The last, led by Old Ignace himself was attacked and killed by a Sioux warband. 

At some later point a Protestant evangelist showed up, but he was not accepted because he didn't have black robes or a rosary.

After this, another expedition was sent, and they encountered a Catholic priest somewhere in Iowa and brought him back.


Edited by edgewaters - 24-Jan-2009 at 09:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 11:43

That's quite interesting. It shows very clearly the magnetic impact that the christian religion had on natives. In Latin America we say the Americas were conquered "by the sword and the cross" and that is what it meant. The christian religion really fascinated natives, particularly the catholic branch with its amazing rituals, fine music and visually impressive clothes.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 18:29
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

In western North America, horses often spread ahead of European contact via native trade routes.So did religion in a few rare cases. A converted Iroqouis fur trader named "Old Ignace" travelled to Montana and settled down among tribes there. He proselytized among the Kalispel and Flathead tribes, and spoke alot about the mystical powers of the "Black Robes" (Catholic missionaries). The Salish decided the new religion wasn't complete without these "Black Robes" and sent several expeditions east to bring some. These expeditions all failed. The last, led by Old Ignace himself was attacked and killed by a Sioux warband. At some later point a Protestant evangelist showed up, but he was not accepted because he didn't have black robes or a rosary.After this, another expedition was sent, and they encountered a Catholic priest somewhere in Iowa and brought him back.


I only have a few but yes the black robes opened the door for conversion to the Couer d' Alene Indian Tribe in Idaho/ E. Washington states. It is an amazing story I learned while I worked as an archivist at the Old Mission State Park in N. Idaho. The Saga of the Coeur d' Alenes by Chief Gary is really good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 21:10
Great topic. Please research. You may have the material for an essay there, at hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 18:34
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Great topic. Please research. You may have the material for an essay there, at hand.


While I worked at Old Mission State Park in N. Idaho I barrowed a number of books, from the museum, which talked about the black robes but I cannot recall the info since the only book I have is "The Sage of the Couer d' Alene Indians" by Chief Gary- It is now out of print.

I know there was a lot of competition between Catholic and Prostestant missionaries back then. The Cour d Alene related more to the Roman Catholic missonaries because of the mysticism and ceremonies, which the Protestant lacked. It held a big similarity to the own traditions. There is a book about Father DeSmhet or maybe it is desmet. I live in a totally new region so while I volunteer at this museum I will do lots of research. I am really interested in the Hopi and Pueblo indians. I prefer Pre Greek and Bronze Age Greek civilization but the opportunity is here so as Julius Caesar said, Sieze the day!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 00:18
Well, just see it this way. There are thousand of researchers studying Greeks while in here you may have hitted virgin territory.
 
In my case, I haven't seen a full comparative study about the cristianization of the Americas from Alaska to the Land of Fire; that could be a monumental work. The study of the evolution of society from the Anazasis to modern Hopi and Pueblo may be another interesting line of research. Even such mundane work as to research Pueblo architecture is something amazing. In short, you have there a good opportunity.
 


Edited by pinguin - 27-Jan-2009 at 00:19
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 18:08
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, just see it this way. There are thousand of researchers studying Greeks while in here you may have hitted virgin territory.
 


In my case, I haven't seen a full comparative study about the cristianization of the Americas from Alaska to the Land of Fire; that could be a monumental work. The study of the evolution of society from the Anazasis to modern Hopi and Pueblo may be another interesting line of research. Even such mundane work as to research Pueblo architecture is something amazing. In short, you have there a good opportunity.

 


That is so true and in the desert Southwest the archaeologist work hand in hand with the Native Americans. It is interesting at some of the museum events the archaeologist explians the history from his angle and then the Native American goes into the myths and folklore that relate to the finds. Some of the artifacts are being reclaimed because of the Repatriation Act. I wonder if this is why the Northwest Muesum of Art and culture put most of their large native collection out of sight and only for research-

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 21:11
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 

In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.

 

Not an expert by any means, but I've had some Chilean wines that were outstanding.  The European export wines have gone up in price and down in quality.[That last statement was merely a statement of personal opinion. So chill.]

 

That friend I once mentioned, the doctor from Chile, turned us on to really fine Chilean wine.  


Wine from Walla Walla, Washington are excellent!!

I have a story, from a Pacific Northwest tribe, which I will have to summarize later about two Native American girl, joking around the campfire, made a regretfull wish. They saw all the beautiful stars in the midnight sky and one wished the white star would be her husband and the other wished the blue star to be her husband. You really should watch out what you wish for because the stars became men and came to their bedrooms and took them to another world. The white star turned out not only to be unattractive but a jerk but the blue star turned out to be handsome and kind. I will try and add more on this later. What is the moral of this tale- stay tuned!!
Has anyone heard of tales like this one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 11:51
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:


Has anyone heard of tales like this one?
 
There's a nice story about Blowing Rock in North Carolina. I was there a few years ago but didn't try out the miraculous powers.
 
 
Sometimes myths are true. I wonder if this will be dismissed as myth sometime in the future:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 18:48
thanks gcle2003 when I get a chance I will read those stories but it looks interesting. I still have to summarize the star story so maybe when I have time I will do that and post it here. I gather the moral of the star story is watch out what you wish for and be content with what you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2009 at 20:34
I started to read Hopi gods and myths and I find it very facinating because it compares Hopi myth to Greek. I once saw a show about things that happened that the government has silenced. The show talked about how some archaeologist found a room in the southwest and entered the threshold and then came to an interior door. They felt a strong breeze blow against them when they tried to enter but ignored it. ( I would have stopped) Once the first man entered he instantly died so they sent in a robot but some force would not allow it to go very far. A man of Hopi or Pueblo ancestry was allowed in and met some beautiful Hopi woman who allowed him to enter this mystical realm, he never returned. At the end the government blew up the entrance with dynamite. For me, it was entertaining and I did not take it serious, although, I believe in a realm we cannot see. Funny, Hopi gods and myth talks about a doorway that brought the Hopi into this world and takes them out upon death and it is only for Hopi. I am sure the script writer read about this but who knows- I am not totally closed minded to the other side. I wonder if there is anyone of Hopi or Pueblo ancestry here?   Did anyone else see this show broadcasted 3-4 years ago.

I was also reading about Masauwu or Skeleton Man who takes a similar role as Satan in Christian/ Jewish beliefs. His is also a trickster also like satan and the Coyote. The book talked about a professor who was at a Hopi village during a sacred cermony ( cannot recall the name now) but all roads are blocked so that a highway to the supernatural world can be bridged. If someone enters the village during this ceremony then this road to the heavens is cut off. The professor was not Hopi so he was asked to stay inside and out of sight duirng the ceremony so he complied. He was alone and suddenly saw a man by his side and asked how did you get in and this happened three times. The man said I want to entertain you but the proffessor replied, go away I am busy and suddenly the man disapeared but then reappeared with different faces. To sum it up the old professor suddenly realized that this was Masauwu the Hopi god of death and life. Of course, this is the Hopi version and according to the Professors version he left because of a small pox outbreak- who do you believe?

Masauwu was alternately described as a handsome, bejeweled man beneath his mask or as a bloody, fearsome creature – Like I said the old Proffessor saw different faces of this Hopi god, whether it really happened or not – well ?????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_mythology



Edited by eaglecap - 25-Feb-2009 at 20:38
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