My ancestors had it bigger than your ancestors

I've noticed a tendency among forum-posters - here and elsewhere - to extol the deeds of their ancestors. To a certain degree, I can understand that. Connection to ancestry does define our sense of identity.

But the major problem is the assumption that if my ancestors were super-heroes, I would automatically become one as well. This is, I believe, where patriotism turns into nationalism. Whereas patriotism is (at least in my perception) always accompanied by a sense of responsibility and fosters emulation, nationalism is self-sufficient. "I belong to the X people, my ancestors ruled the world. Why try harder?!"

Do you think there are other causes for nationalism? Are there strategies to gently and effectively reason with nationalists (I mean, just shouting louder than them will not help - they have trained lungs )? Should one even bother?

Originally posted by khshayathiya But the major problem is the assumption that if my ancestors were super-heroes, I would automatically become one as well.

What curious super-heroes, to need attention and recognition so desperately!!

I reckon its part of human nature. If you can't beat someone now, remember that your dad had once beaten their dad.

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.
Charles de Gaulle

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
Albert Einstein

I confess-my ancestors were peasants of many generations, cheerful and well fed but not particularly imaginative, powerful or wealthy.

Hey it worked for them it works for me!

Nationalism is a disease. A monster. It eats your guts and feels your heart with hate and fear. A drug over-dose that can lead you to insanity. Unfortunately, too many people are infected.

People feel the need to belong to a wider group. Some use religion (e.g. christians-mulsims), some political views ("free world"-communists), some nation, some skin colour (whites-blacks).

Nationalism has some sense when a persecuted minority group seek to defend their culture and identity against forced assimilation. As long as they're open to outsiders then I don't see anything wrong with it. Nationalism becomes a problem when it becomes closed-minded and fueld by hate. I get nervous when I see people defending someone or some group to death just because they belong to the same nationality.

Spain is a country where different types of nationalism come into conflict with each other.
On one hand there are the Basque and Catalan nationalists who fight for their autonomy and the preservance of their regional culture, language, and identity (which made perfect sense during Franco's time); on the other hand there are the Spanish nationalists who try to promote a common "Spanish identity".
Both sides can get quite extreme. Basque nationalists often harrass and persecute non-nationalist Basques in the Basque country and going as far as calling them "traitors".
Spanish nationalists, on the other hand, often deny the existence Basque and Catalan language and identity, making comments such as: "Spanish is a natural langauge of Catalans and Basques and I don't see why they should speak their regional dialects...."

Both side to me are stupid, close-minded and just as fascist.

There is no point in arguing with Nationalists except the (often vain) hope that their views are merely born of ignorance rather than set-in-stone prejudice. It's rather like arguing with someone of a diametrically opposite political view than yours: neither person is going to give up an opinion they've invested their life in. The people you really want to reach are the next generation, and the (often silent) moderates. If you feel the need to reach anyone at all.

My ancestors were (variously) brutally warlike killers, prosperous and adventuresome traders and craftsmen, poor and unenlightened peasants, victims, victors, and every other stereotype one could possible come up with.






Edited by TheARRGH - 25-Mar-2009 at 20:40

Originally posted by khshayathiya That was what I was wondering. Is nationalism just a form of escapism? In that case, it would be restricted to those countries that have fallen on rather hard times. But this "condition" seems to be fairly widespread. Perhaps it is a form of individual escapism - the individual feels for a number of reasons that he as a person fails to raise to a certain standard and is compelled to compensate his personal inferiority complex with a national superiority complex. Could it be?

Yes. That's the way I look at it, too. It seems to occur to those individuals who lack satisfaction with their lives, for whatever reasons it be.

As someone above said, it only is worth trying to persuade them otherwise if their nationalism, if we can call it this way in this case, comes from their ignorance. But such types probably wouldn't go to argue their point to death and that's why I'm skeptical to use the term nationalism here. 

On the other hand, there are those who are so stubborn that nothing can persuade them and it is absolutely worthless to even give it a try...and, in fact, I have no idea why I keep trying. I've even noticed in several cases that they not only purposely ignore everything that contradicts their view but seem to be doing so completely unintentionally.

I once got a request in a debate from a Slovak nationalist to comment on a series of articles (of varying reliability, albeit in all cases sufficient) he posted and that were to refute my point. All of them explicitely and absolutely clearly stated the same thing I did, in the case of one of them it was stated so in the headlines, but he really was in it that he had destroyed my point completely. I just stared in a state of disbelief. If this won't communicate a very clear message that it is worthless to engage in any polemics with hard nationalists, then I don't know what will.

Edited by Slayertplsko - 30-May-2009 at 19:36