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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 03:35

I wish I could control my girl. Once. Nothing untoward, but if she is supposed to be submissive howcome I had to drive (which i hate) up to Taxila so we could see the a exhibation about "Greeks in Pakistan".

 
Yet according to some people, they are supposed to be "easy to control".
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 03:35
And women should not be allowed to drive; period.
 
 
 
Wink


Edited by Sparten - 25-Aug-2006 at 03:38
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red_Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 06:13
Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Originally posted by Master_Blaster Master_Blaster wrote:

No one treats their men better, no one raises their kids better, and no one has a firmer committment to their family than a Muslim women. No, they are not "caged virgins," or "oppressed," or any of that other nonsense the feminists propogate! They are educated, intelligent, and loyal... Simply put, Muslim women are the best.



    
Yes! and, lucky for you, they're probably easier to CONTROL than a western woman! Hopefully, they, too, shall someday learn that they can be all that (what you've written above) plus also have EQUALITY, FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE! Enjoy them while they last!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 06:21
Tele Induz and Omar...
 
Please read my post again.
I know the journalist was right - he was interviewing both males and females from the congregation of the new Mosque - and the box IS to isolate the women. Most of the men didnt want them in the Mosque at all.
In other Mosques there is a curtain in the back for the women to stand behind - separated, isolated - and out of sight for the men, and as Omar said - visa versa.
 
Obviouly my attempt to do a satiric comment on the issue failed.
 
Centuries ago, it was common that men AND women was together, worshipping and praying in the Mosques. Some women even lectured from the pulpit (please replace with correct term) in past times.
As far as I'm told and know, nothing in the Qu'ran prohibits women to take part in the religious activities in a Mosque, or am I wrong here?
Why has this changed over the years?
 
As in much as I do want to respect and understand other beliefs, I also need to understand what parts of the culture is religion and what is merely male dominated, female opressing traditions.
 
PS...
In regards to women and cars - it should be a human right to own at least one of each! Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 06:58
Could be right Northman for that Mosque (satirical or whatever), most Mosques usually have a room for women and men I think. Anyway, when I used to go to the gym, they have some "women's only" hours, some of them were at peak time at this one gym I used to frequent, which was probably worse than all this - it was the part of the gym with the equipment women never used to use too, that was kind of stupid..needless to say I left that gym pretty soon (it was run by a woman mind you).
 
If a woman wants to go to the Mosque I dont see what's stopping her..just go to a new Mosque, like I went to a new gym. Choosing a religious sect that forbids you from going to a Mosque to pray is sort of like choosing a gym with "women's only" hours. Again, I think women can pray in most Mosques.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 25-Aug-2006 at 07:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 07:47
Ok, your right again Northman.

The issue with men & women praying together is that when you pray in congregation you are "feet to feet, shoulder to shoulder" with the people next to you. People think (quite rightly) that if members of the opposite sex are that close, they will not be concentration on there prayers.
To seperate sections for men & women praying is in my opinion necessary, and I'm certain its Hadis too, but it isn't Quran.

Where these positions are is a completely different question. To the left, right, above, below, behind (though probably not in front - its not good to be looking at a woman's backside when praying) is arbitary.

Line of sight is mainly a ME cultural thing, actually Hamza Yusuf (an american scholar) once gave a speech I heard that made a good case about it not being an Arab thing during the prophets time, but something that has been picked up from other middle-eastern cultures.

Quote I also need to understand what parts of the culture is religion and what is merely male dominated, female opressing traditions.

In my experience, its usually the women who are the instigators and protaganists of segregation.  I think the whole male dominated thing is a myth. People are just assuming the wrong cause to the visible effects.

Whether women go to the Mosque or not is something that varies hugely by culture. Religously I think they have just as much obligation to do so as men.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 25-Aug-2006 at 07:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 10:30
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Ok, your right again Northman.

The issue with men & women praying together is that when you pray in congregation you are "feet to feet, shoulder to shoulder" with the people next to you. People think (quite rightly) that if members of the opposite sex are that close, they will not be concentration on there prayers.
To seperate sections for men & women praying is in my opinion necessary, and I'm certain its Hadis too, but it isn't Quran.

 
Exactly.
 
in the mosques people pray feet to feet ,shoulder to shoulder and given the fact that sexual feelings are one basic instict and springs to mind evry day for many times,it is better to spearte man and women in the house of Allah so that everyone can concantrate on praying better and as a result unite their souls with Allah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 10:39
I agree that the close proximity between males and females will stir passions from within. I still don't like the idea of segregated rooms or barriers in most mosques though.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that women are 'instigators' of segregation. Makes me want to barf. Imams tend to be men. The boards of directors tend to be made up of men. The women are regulated to part of the room behind a barrier and hardly get to preach on any given Friday. No. I don't think women set up normative behavior themselves. I think the macho mentality is more the culprit.
    

Edited by Seko - 25-Aug-2006 at 10:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 13:53
Originally posted by TheDiplomat TheDiplomat wrote:

[QUOTE=Omar al Hashim] Ok, your right again Northman.The issue with men & women praying together is that when you pray in congregation you are "feet to feet, shoulder to shoulder" with the people next to you. People think (quite rightly) that if members of the opposite sex are that close, they will not be concentration on there prayers.To seperate sections for men & women praying is in my opinion necessary, and I'm certain its Hadis too, but it isn't Quran

in the mosques people pray feet to feet ,shoulder to shoulder and given the fact that sexual feelings are one basic instict and springs to mind evry day for many times,it is better to spearte man and women in the house of Allah so that everyone can concantrate on praying better and as a result unite their souls with


Have you gentlemen ever heard of the word CONTROL? Are men unable to control their sexual "urges" upon seeing a female? Does this mean that women can't ride on the same bus as men, women can't go to the same theatre as men, etc...because men can't have close proximity to a female without having premature ejaculation? C'mon guys...I don't buy it! Why not try to exercise 'CONTROL'of those MANLY powerful sexual urges and concentrate on praying instead, eh?      It should make no difference what gender is standing next to you, when it's time to pray, sex should be the last thing on your mind...but, now I see that, obviously, that's not true! I certainly hope that's not the VALID reason why women are separated in a Mosque from the men.
    

Edited by morticia - 25-Aug-2006 at 13:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 18:01
 
Location = Turkey
What they do = Composite praying.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 22:15
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

I agree that the close proximity between males and females will stir passions from within. I still don't like the idea of segregated rooms or barriers in most mosques though. 
 
As a side note, Orthodox Jewish services are also segregated by sex.  Though male / female segregation is very rare in Christianity, some churches do practice it.  German Lutheran Churches in Romania were segregated as a social custom prior to WWII.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 12:03
Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Originally posted by TheDiplomat TheDiplomat wrote:

[QUOTE=Omar al Hashim] Ok, your right again Northman.The issue with men & women praying together is that when you pray in congregation you are "feet to feet, shoulder to shoulder" with the people next to you. People think (quite rightly) that if members of the opposite sex are that close, they will not be concentration on there prayers.To seperate sections for men & women praying is in my opinion necessary, and I'm certain its Hadis too, but it isn't Quran

in the mosques people pray feet to feet ,shoulder to shoulder and given the fact that sexual feelings are one basic instict and springs to mind evry day for many times,it is better to spearte man and women in the house of Allah so that everyone can concantrate on praying better and as a result unite their souls with


Have you gentlemen ever heard of the word CONTROL? Are men unable to control their sexual "urges" upon seeing a female? Does this mean that women can't ride on the same bus as men, women can't go to the same theatre as men, etc...because men can't have close proximity to a female without having premature ejaculation? C'mon guys...I don't buy it! Why not try to exercise 'CONTROL'of those MANLY powerful sexual urges and concentrate on praying instead, eh?      It should make no difference what gender is standing next to you, when it's time to pray, sex should be the last thing on your mind...but, now I see that, obviously, that's not true! I certainly hope that's not the VALID reason why women are separated in a Mosque from the men.
    
 
 
1-Take it easy..Nobody here agrgued that men would jump over the woman next to him during the pray. Noone would do that psychically...however we talked about passions within...and MENTALLY!
 
2-Have you ever searched the complexity of mind? a lot of unintedted thoughts spring to one's mind often a day..it is not that this should be the last thing on your mind...You can not decide that;!!!
 
3- what about the devil factor? devil does his best to induce believers  to be away from god and persuade them to commit sins..ex:adultery
 
4- So far I have been to 8 foreign countries(including the U.S) and they all were countries with a christian majority,and I have seen thataltough in some respects women have better lifes there,in some respects muslim women have better lives as well in comprasion to their non-muslim sisters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:20
This is supposed to be an APPRECIATE MUSLIM WOMEN'S thread! Not some silly debate on which society oppresses their women more!
 
I can't stand how people from NON-MUSLIM backgrounds think they know all there is to know about Islamic cultures and the plight of Muslim women! So, if I as a non-White person, judge America and the West only through the amount of pornography, and sex it puts out - then, is that an accurate portrayal of White women??? Then, how can so many of you non-Muslims view ISOLATED INCIDENTS and think that ALL Muslim women are oppressed?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 20:24
Very well said Master.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 09:17
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Very well said Master.
 
Very understandable sentiments from MB and you Omar.
MB cannot respond at the moment, thats why I respond to you instead of him.
 
I have no doubt what so ever, that muslim women are equally virtuous, respectable, great housewifes, mothers and family members in general, than women from any other culture or religion - if not more so.
 
I just think MB are missing the point as to why Morty wrote like she did.
Morty is simply siding, as I would, with all women who obviously are less free in behavior, attitude, dresscode or whatever - than the ideal situation.
She/we never postulated this as exclusively a problem related to the muslim world.
Women are oppressed to some extent in most societies all over the world, including the west. Its just more obvious and visual in the muslim world.
 
So yes - lets praise Muslim women - side with all women, and at the same time, agree on working together for the aim, that one day in the future we can say that every women is equal to any man in all aspects.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 22:34
Oh I understand why morty said it.

Its just the perpetuation of a sterotype created by (in a large part) a misunderstanding of different peoples with a touch of cultural arrogance thrown in, that I'm disputing.

(It may also be counter-productive. If womens rights is associated with westernisation, it'll recieve more opposition than if its not. Which I think we can agree is a bad thing. These movements need to come from within and can't be pushed from outside)


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 27-Aug-2006 at 22:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 04:26
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Oh I understand why morty said it.

Its just the perpetuation of a sterotype created by (in a large part) a misunderstanding of different peoples with a touch of cultural arrogance thrown in, that I'm disputing.
 
Yes very true indeed - but the arrogance is double edged and most of this thread is partly said in jest, as I read it.

Quote
(It may also be counter-productive. If womens rights is associated with westernisation, it'll recieve more opposition than if its not. Which I think we can agree is a bad thing. These movements need to come from within and can't be pushed from outside)
 
Also true - the perpetuation of the sterotypical "evil west" is blocking for many advancements in Muslim countries. Wink
 
 


Edited by Northman - 28-Aug-2006 at 04:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 07:39
Everybody knows the sterotype of Muslim women. Exceptions always confirm the rule. However its not the Muslim women who are to be blamed. its the muslim men who are immersed in bigotism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 09:47
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Very well said Master.

Very understandable sentiments from MB and you Omar.
MB cannot respond at the moment, thats why I respond to you instead of him.

 

I have no doubt what so ever, that muslim women are equally virtuous, respectable, great housewifes, mothers and family members in general, than women from any other culture or religion - if not more so.

 

I just think MB are missing the point as to why Morty wrote like she did.

Morty is simply siding, as I would, with all women who obviously are less free in behavior, attitude, dresscode or whatever - than the ideal situation.

She/we never postulated this as exclusively a problem related to the muslim world.

Women are oppressed to some extent in most societies all over the world, including the west. Its just more obvious and visual in the muslim world.

So yes - lets praise Muslim women - side with all women, and at the same time, agree on working together for the aim, that one day in the future we can say that every women is equal to any man in all aspects


I don't enjoy seeing any women being discriminated against or being considered a second class citizen or kept uneducated....and surely a definite sign of discrimination is when a woman does not have a right to make decisions, to vote, to be a part of the political system, to have freedome of speech, expression, choices, driving, equality to men, etcetera..... I don't care if she is Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Black, White, Purple or Pink! It's simply not FAIR that women cannot comport themselves the same way as men do, simply because of their gender!

And yet, again, MB and some others seem to make light of this situation as well. Why do you still want to keep women BEHIND you instead of as your equal? Why not let women be who they really are instead of who you want them to be? Is it a "tradition" thing?
    

Edited by morticia - 29-Aug-2006 at 10:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 14:17
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

And if you go for a stroll around Kota Baru without a headscarf, the police will stop you.... Muslim men, Chinese and Indian girls won't get stopped, only you.
 
This is the most nonsense statement.. if u dont knw wht u are talking about dont say anything...  Kota Bharu is in Kelantan... East coast Malaysia.. My mom originally from there.. instead... all my siblings were born in there except me.. I just came bck frm there last mth... my friend is muslim and she 's non hijabi.. nothing happened to her.. wht are u talking Paul?? It's a crap.... There's some muslims women who wear hijab some are not..  this is so ridicolous.. why people make funny story when they knw nothing?
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