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Forum LockedMuslim Theology and the Word.

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Voice of Reason View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 15:24
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

So, are the extremist Islamics such as those who did many of the bombings on the towers and are often considered terrorists going against the Quran?


Yes; like in other religions, and in Christianity, the ones that transgress against God's commandments are against God. Thus they are going against what the Qu'ran teaches.

[/QUOTE]
 
It doesn't really matter what the Quran says about sects being not right, according to es_bih it also says that killing others is not right, yet islamic extremists do it without regard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 16:34
Scorpius,
 
I am reminded of something I heard John Major say years ago: "One day the right honorable gentleman will learn to quite when he is losing." Wink
 
Originally posted by Scorpius Scorpius wrote:

I do not have  a problem with objectivity.
 
I have a problem with the definition of the word Islam used here.
Islam means submission, a total surrender of oneself to God and hence the Muslim means a submitter and moreover we are talking about muslims. Muslims have only one reliable source for religion and that is the Quran. The Quran says muslims cannot have a sect. It does not matter how people practice their religion, it is the definition that matters.
 
Either you apply the same standard to the categorization of other religions, or you, by definition, do have a problem with objectivity. You haven't said anything new; you've simply repeated yourself, which is fine, because it serves to support what I've been trying to get you to understand. Just for fun, I'll use the rest of your post to illustrate the point a bit more. Wink
 
Quote
You are mixing apples with God knows what else here ;)
(1) It is not about being right or being wrong. It is about what is written in the Book.
It is crystal clear that you cannot go berserk and explode or hijack planes and kill thousands. So why people go and explode ? It is a mystery to me. But again why satan did what he did ? It is even a bigger mystery to me. How can he be so unintelligent ( ok, what I mean is idiot ;) ).
 
Why do people place themselves outside of the Church based upon their own personal beliefs? Why do they refuse to acknowledge the divinized institution in which the Holy Spirit dwells as guide, guardian and comforter? It is a mystery to me -- although I think I shall refrain from calling people idiots.
 
Quote
(2) We are talking about Islam. What is the only reliable source of Islam accepted by all muslims ?. The Quran. What does the Quran says about the issue? - You cannot have a sect.
 
More clearly, what does the word intelligence mean ?
 
It means many things with respect to many different frames it is defined.
For instance,Christian Science defines it as "the basic eternal quality of divine Mind".
 
Tell it to some of the more mystical branches of Sufism. If you want to place them outside of Islam, I have no problem with this, but the standard must needs carry over when you examine other religions. Otherwise, you do, once again, have a problem with objectivity.
 
Quote That is beautiful. So there are no sects but unity in Christianity in despite of what people are practising today. And that is already what I am saying about Islam. Thanks for the information.
 
Once again, you've missed it. The two quotes from Scripture, which I mentioned, illustrate the fact that the same standard you are applying to Islam could just as easily be applied to Christianity. Objectivity, objectivity, objectivity.
 
Hm. While I'm discussing this with you, why don't you go over to the "Introduce Yourself" thread; always happy to have another member to discuss these things with, no matter how wrong he habitually is. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 16:40
Originally posted by es bih es bih wrote:

"Moderate Muslims of the West." I have a big problem with this term for technical reasons and for authentic. Does this denote that only, and only Muslims in the West, and only then again those who are "Moderate(What that meeans I have to find out too...)" are somewhat progressive, whereas, all the Muslims in the rest of the World are un-Moderate Ouch?

That makes no sense to me, when for example the newer English translation of the Qu'ran is done in part by a Turk... and when the Open Letter I just pasted here earlier is signed in majority by Muslims throughout the Muslim world; who aren't in the "West."
 
I think you're right. I used the term as a generalization, but the open letter that you linked to shows that the genralization is not entirely apt. Furthermore, as I recall, the Grand Mufti of Egypt recently condemned suicide bombers in the strongest terms (though he danced around the issue of killing apostates). Anyway, duly noted -- you may substitute "moderate Muslims".
 
Quote Well, the man strapped with bombs is the same one bombing an abortion clinic, thus outside the religion, a flawed view on religion does not make him a sub-sect of the main body of believers who despite some differences see themselves as Muslims overall through their belief in God, and through their acceptance of the Qu'ran as the word of God ( alongside the previous two of course) Therefore, you have a single body of believers, personal theology is one thing. That is the case with Islam the Qu'ran is there to be interpreted on the level of individual spirituality, but also congregatinally if you will in temrs of prayer or the ummah. However, to call a suicide bomber belonging to a sect is very different to me; he has stepped out of the Qu'ran once he commits that act.
 
So long as you apply the same standard to the examination of other religions, I have no problem with it (my problem with Scorpius is his repeated failure to do so). It think it is a good method of categorization, but by no means the only one we may use.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:10
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Either you apply the same standard to the categorization of other religions, or you, by definition, do have a problem with objectivity.
 
We are replying to the topic "Muslim Theology and the world" which defines the main discussion subject. In order to comment on other religions one must be fully educated him/herself with their scriptures. But lucky for us, the diversity of the forum gives us this opportunity within itself like the versus you posted from Bible.
 
You are talking about people, that is what I am trying to show you here. You are not talking about Islam. The things people do in the name of Islam does not define Islam, you should understand this first.
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

you've simply repeated yourself.
 
Whay do you think the same ideas, commands repeated numereous times, again and again in the Quran, as I am almost sure it is in other holly books.
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Why do people place themselves outside of the Church based upon their own personal beliefs? Why do they refuse to acknowledge the divinized institution in which the Holy Spirit dwells as guide, guardian and comforter? It is a mystery to me -- although I think I shall refrain from calling people idiots.
 
Why don't you ask people ? Maybe they should read more like you. Show the versus you posted here and ask them in which part they didn't understand that they cannot have a sect. 
 
And that is my bad. I didn't mean people are idiots, the satan is an idiot and I guess you know why.
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Once again, you've missed it. The two quotes from Scripture, which I mentioned, illustrate the fact that the same standard you are applying to Islam could just as easily be applied to Christianity. Objectivity, objectivity, objectivity.
 
That only shows my objectivity Smile.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

I am reminded of something I heard John Major say years ago: "One day the right honorable gentleman will learn to quite when he is losing." Wink
 
Good for John Mayor LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:22
Originally posted by Scorpius Scorpius wrote:

We are replying to the topic "Muslim Theology and the world" which defines the main discussion subject. In order to comment on other religions one must be fully educated him/herself with their scriptures. But lucky for us, the diversity of the forum gives us this opportunity within itself like the versus you posted from Bible.
 
You are talking about people, that is what I am trying to show you here. You are not talking about Islam. The things people do in the name of Islam does not define Islam, you should understand this first.
 
Actually, you and I are speaking of the existence of sects within Islam, or any other religion. If you would like to return to the original topic of the thread, you have but to stop posting replies which are irrelevant, both to the discussion you and I are having, as well as to the topic of the thread as a whole. Your choice.
 
Quote
Why don't you ask people ? Maybe they should read more like you. Show the versus you posted here and ask them in which part they didn't understand that they cannot have a sect. 
 
And that is my bad. I didn't mean people are idiots, the satan is an idiot and I guess you know why.
 
Here, you have made a cogent point. My argument is that the standard you are using to state that there are no sects in Islam could just as easily be applied to say that there are no sects in Christianity. We may speak of the same situation in either religion in two different ways, by applying two separate standards. What we may not do is apply one standard to our own religion, while applying another to an analogous situation in someone elses -- at least not if we wish to remain objective. Do you agree?
 
Quote That only shows my objectivity Smile.
 
And that, my dear Scorpius, is contingent upon your answer to the above question. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:52
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

[quote=Scorpius]
 
Here, you have made a cogent point. My argument is that the standard you are using to state that there are no sects in Islam could just as easily be applied to say that there are no sects in Christianity. We may speak of the same situation in either religion in two different ways, by applying two separate standards. What we may not do is apply one standard to our own religion, while applying another to an analogous situation in someone elses -- at least not if we wish to remain objective. Do you agree?
 
 
Akolouthos that is what I am saying from the beginning. You see sometimes you need to repeat yourself several times Smile 
 
I never talked about the current practices of people and said there are no sects. In contrary I said a muslim cant have a sect if he/she is following the Quran.
 
And note that I never failed to apply that idea to Christinaity  since you provided the versus from the Bible and thanks God I can read Wink and hopefully understand what is written there.
 
I guess we understand eachother now. We can continue private if you wish which btw I do not prefer since a forum is for sharing ideas with the whole. But as a moderator if you see that is for the better of this topic, I have no objection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:59
Quote
I am having difficulty understanding the reasoning behind this request . It is good to discuss that for a better understanding of the concept before you build things on top of it.


No, no Scorpius you misunderstand me. I'm only using that definition in regards to the assertions in the differences between Christianity and Islam, because if you are using all versions of Christianity to define it's theology you must also use all versions of Islam.

Of course I would prefer to take the purist source for theology. And I have no problem with your definition of a "true muslim" as opposed to a "muslim poseur" however if your talking about discrepansies between Christian teaching as applied to all who claim to be Christians we must acknowledge the discrepansies between differing Islamic theologians.

Quote We are replying to the topic "Muslim Theology and the world" which defines the main discussion subject.


....actually the topic I wished to address is Muslim Theology and the Word. Meaning the 2nd person of the Trinity, also known as Jesus Christ or the Son. Since I wanted to see if Allah is "one thing" like a brick wall (made of the same parts) or "one thing" like a car engine (made of different parts). And depending on which response to try to make that definition come to terms with the concept of the Incarnation.

Quote
You are talking about people, that is what I am trying to show you here. You are not talking about Islam. The things people do in the name of Islam does not define Islam, you should understand this first.


The topic of the post is what defines Islam. The side tracked topic we got ourselves on due to Mughaal's post is what defines a Muslim. Slightly different but for our purposes worlds apart. I believe we have got the point across about the second part, hopefully we can refer to the first part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 18:59
Originally posted by Scorpius Scorpius wrote:

I guess we understand eachother now. We can continue private if you wish which btw I do not prefer since a forum is for sharing ideas with the whole. But as a moderator if you see that is for the better of this topic, I have no objection.
 
A capital idea, and one I can find no fault with. I do have a bit to raise in private, but I think we're on the same page now. Seems like it was a simple semantic misunderstanding. Check your inbox soon, and God bless. Smile
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2008 at 19:43
And thanks again for the discussion! Smile
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